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Dev Workshop: Spores Revisited (Saryn)

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il y a 4 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Shes already been fine for us that have player her as an active frame. She already has one of the higher armor values in game, a decoy that can draw enemy fire aswell as the option to regenerate life through molt. She doesnt need more because she isnt fragile to begin with.

well need more buff in 2 skill is useless

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1 minute ago, BiatrizLP said:

well need more buff in 2 skill is useless

Not really, it removes all status effects, speeds you up and draws fire as you get away. It is also a perfect distraction if you want mobs to go a certain way.

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il y a 25 minutes, BiatrizLP a dit :

2 skill needs more reasons to use, more synergy. How about a buff reach on it? Your melee weapon gains spores slash, would be visually amazing 

 

il y a 1 minute, SneakyErvin a dit :

Not really, it removes all status effects, speeds you up and draws fire as you get away. It is also a perfect distraction if you want mobs to go a certain way.

distraction need more work , speed is blee . well I dont like

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14 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

Unfortunately this led to people casting Spore once and hiding while Spores played the game for them, so that couldn't really stay.

Which has been fairly good to level her up 😄 Spore, Molt and dash away. To be honest I am forced to do it, since my Ignis Wraith usually takes care of enemies in a fraction of Spore time.

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Quote

The most common report we received requested we look the seemingly inconsistent spreading nature of Spores. After rummaging around in the code for an answer, we discovered an unintended mechanic that determined range based on the specific action taken (we’ll call this “spread condition”).

 

 

So is unintended mechanic the new code word for an official mechanic added in the official patch notes after it was requested by the community almost 3 years ago?

 

 

Because that's a weird way to refer to a definitely intended mechanic.

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Everything seems nice to me, except for the "Spores don't spread on enemy death anymore" part. I mean, Spores do a large amount of damage, so they often happen to get the final tick on enemies' healthbars; having to cast, then shoot to spread them, then, once the damage goes up, have Spores kill a few enemies nearby and having to rinse and repeat sounds A LOT more clunky than she ever was.. how is this helping her gameplay feel more fun/consistent? She's gonna go back in to oblivion if that change goes through, at least for me..

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Love the tuning of the ability but ->

this is too complex mumbo jumbo.  The Re Design helped Saryn to simplify the abilities like the hidden Energy back on Toxic Lash.  Now The Spores are too complex. A new player has to learn about how and when it spreads, growth rate of damage and limit, decay of damage and so on.

I Like the new Idea of the spores but please make clear documenations in the litte explanation tab of the abilities.

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I hope that the dev team takes another look at some of the parameters of ESO. Right now we are deep into some rigid min-maxing to grind out really rare (and not great) drops, leaving alot of potentially high damage frames on the table, because of how ESO is set up.

I think the Energy reset (where it is reduced to Mission start levels of energy) should occur every 2 waves, instead of every 1. Since these waves are paired off and culminate in a loot drop, this makes sense to me.. and will help with pacing alot.

I also think the Ability lockout (I've gather enough data on that ability!) occurs a little too frequently. I understand why it exists, but sometimes it is a bit too jarring and inconsistently punishes frames.

I see trouble with this mode at the moment.. as we have really lackluster rewards, and a setup that is pretty much meta or bust.

Right now, the meta is either map-clear Equinox, Saryn, and maybe 2-3 other frames. The objective of the mode is to grind out 2% drops that are either Peculiars (novelty that gimps weapons) or 2 re-released weapons (one of which is fodder).

There could be alot more potential, and still the same challenges, if the framework of ESO was worked out a little bit more. And, if we could get some legitimately new weapons in there (Sobek or Kohm Wraith anyone?) there would be more sense of accomplishment out of the intensely long grind it presents.

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When a Spore’s tick damage kills an enemy

8m

NA*

 

 

bad very bad low lvl the game will die from such a balance of argument

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We don't have the rework on consoles yet, but I'd like to join the feedback.

Changes in this rework look better than 3.0 and I can see the +/- trade-offs too, I like it so far....even if just by the numbers..good work Pablo

My question thou are:

1. Will base damage (on spores) still be 10 and effected by power strength?

2. Is having 2 or more Saryns in a squad blocking each other's spores being addressed?

3. Now we can maintain spores with recasts (resulting in a constant higher number of enemies effected) Will this effect Saryn players in lower level missions dominating games and coming back to bite you in the #um like "Ember" did? I can see it now,  new/low MR players crying about how Saryn steals all the kills blah nerf blah blah nerf (I liked how 3.0 spore changes burnt out quickly on low level missions) That was smart!

 

On a side note, I know this is about spores but

Can Molt be changed so health regen is part of Molt and the speed boost be on the Augment instead? I hate volt speed buff and I'm fast enough already.

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6 hours ago, Konachibi said:

You simply cannot stop frames from doing what they do best.  Saryn passively kills everything with Spores, Ember passively kills everything with World On Fire, Equinox passively kills everything with Maim, Mirage passively kills everything with Prism, Nova passively kills everything with Molecular Prime... it's just what they're meant to do.

And i agree with you on that,  heck even myself have shamesly sensed accomplishment on doing that,  but,  it gets old.  Let me phrase it this way Veterans often complain about having nothing to do and a non existing endgame, these kinds of mechanics of passively killing anything dont help with that its more like an instant gratification that gets old quickly  and you end up needing harder and harder content but when you get it then you find ways to trivialize it and begin the complaint cycle anew,  let me summarize it like this:

I dont want to lose the ability to kill everything fast,  but also i dont want it to be so easy that i can yawn  presing 1,3 then shotting an spored enemy and then wait for it to do all the work for the next of the round, overall it hurts the game that's all about shooting,  movement and usage of awesome abilities

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@[DE]Pablo : So we're taking the marathonian approach to saryn heh? Build it slow (even slower now with the cap to enemies contributing to damage growth), and loose it slow (decay instead of just disappearing) though at 10% per second it won't be too slow (and will force duration builds which you mentioned wanting to leave it as a choice in the prime time).

Not my preferred style, but i can work with that.

You might have to revise the damage value though, because with a 200% power strength build (or rather, 194% in my case to be precise) the base tick is ~20damage. That's a 200 damage growth per second max with a cap at 10 enemies contributing. Even if you double the base damage, that's still only 400 damage growth per second. That is very slow. More like a stroll in the park than a marathon. As a reminder, with toxin proc spreading, we could easily get tens of thousands of damage per tic, literally in seconds (30902 damage per tic in less than 10s in this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HSEqyMRk7M). And even that pales in comparison of spores first iteration, when it was called venom and there was no cap to the amount of spores that could be stacked on one enemy, enabling exponential progression. No need to go back to such silly stuff, but yeah, a 200 (300 at best with a 300% power strength) growth rate is really slow, and just doubling the base damage on that (to reach 400-600) won't be nearly enough.

As for enemy death not spreading spores, i'm fine with it, mostly, though i do feel like toxic lash could provide damage reduction instead of blocking bonus, at least when your selected weapon is your melee, since we can't attack (and thus spread spores) while we're blocking, and vice-versa. At least with ranged weapons you can pop spores while mainly behind cover. Not so much with melee.

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So far, sounds good, I'd say.

I'm only worried a little about the lack of spread when enemy is killed by a spore, although it should balance out with return of actual recast and more consistent range on everything else. We will see how it works when delivered, I guess.

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@[DE]Pablo I'm liking the sound of the new changes, but I ask that you please consider giving us the ability to increase the scaling damage by inflicting toxin damage on infected enemies. This will really help Saryn at the highest levels like long endurance runs. 

The damage scaling is just too slow for 200lvl, 500lvl, 1000lvl, etc. enemies. It wouldn't make her OP at lower levels, but would allow her to be great at really high levels like she use to be. It would also add back the loadout aspect that's missing now. She use to work really well with specific weapons, but now anything is good because of Toxic Lash. I like the buff to Toxic Lash, but I still would like to see her being great with high damage Gas/Toxin weapons again. Thank you. 

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Ok so all that needs to be done now is bring back the energy gain She had because she is a heavy caster again and then this will be the very first rework that I think was implemented and balanced perfectly. She has no useless abilities no useless augments and scales without being overpowered.

Now my only question is why can't ember get this kind of love, like having her 3 reduce incoming damage or just not nerfing her 4 so it can actually be used for more than 2 seconds, and have it scale per enemy killed by heat damage.

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I miss viral on spore, I really do. Miasma isn't cutting it for what it is. I suggest for Miasma, for those that would like their Viral Queen back, you put a duration spread on it, like Nova's 4. Or even make it based off of range. Maybe some new animation effects like the Infested swarm clouds you see floating about on Infested Tilesets based off of energy color, that would look super sick. These clouds would rapidly seek out enemies and consume them. Just a personal thought on what Miasma could be. 

As for what spore is now and what they're suggesting in this revisited workshop, I have the same general complaint about not having spore spread on spore related deaths, if anything I agree with lowering the range to 3 or 4 (preferably 4) instead. Don't hurt muh baby! On top of that I don't like the sound of the 10 enemy cap for damage.

I feel like Molt is still a little underwhelming, it doesn't protect you enough to keep you in the line of fire. She needs some damage resistance. Something more than just a decoy that kind of works. Either the decoy has a stronger aggro pull or Molt becomes something like shattershield or Iron Skin.

With Recastable spores making a return I think it might be wise to allow some energy regen back on toxic lash, not as much as before, maybe .5 or  .25 instead of the full 2. With the change to toxic lash buffing all your weapons we have more options for how we damage crowds and pop spores and a toned down version of energy return would give Saryn back what she had before, I think.

I hope a few things from the comment section are seriously considered, and that you all take your time with Saryn, don't rush. Don't kill her please :c

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There is so much confusion in this thread.

These changes are largely gains to functionality and when this goes live hopefully people will realize this.

 

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2 hours ago, yakri said:

So is unintended mechanic the new code word for an official mechanic added in the official patch notes after it was requested by the community almost 3 years ago?

Because that's a weird way to refer to a definitely intended mechanic.

Yes, the very same 'unintentional mechanic' that's been in Spore's ability description for those same 3 years so people could SEE that spores would 'unintentionally' spread further if the player took the time to manually pop them instead of letting it automate.  It's not just that the information was in the game, it's been in the wiki since forever too, and they updated the description for the ability with the spread differences right after the update for her came out, so the wiki people knew more about how Saryn worked than the devs did!: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Saryn/Abilities

Why are we trusting a dev who doesn't even know how Saryn works mess with her abilities again?  So far the only genuinely good changes we've seen to Saryn is Toxic Lash and some visual and audio improvements, but the speed bonus from Molt is kinda useless, changing Spores from Viral to Corrosive makes it useless against all Infested Ancients (seriously, those things just tank spores like they aren't even there) and Miasma is as 'meh' as it's always been.  Saryn is swiftly straying further away from being 'the queen of poisons' and turning in to some formless mass of damage dealing with no identity.  Next thing you know they'll be giving Molt a radiation cloud AoE or letting Toxic Lash change element depending on your colour choices.

Edited by Konachibi
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5 minutes ago, Rivv0 said:

I miss viral on spore, I really do. Miasma isn't cutting it for what it is. I suggest for Miasma, for those that would like their Viral Queen back, you put a duration spread on it, like Nova's 4. Or even make it based off of range. Maybe some new animation effects like the Infested swarm clouds you see floating about on Infested Tilesets based off of energy color, that would look super sick. These clouds would rapidly seek out enemies and consume them. Just a personal thought on what Miasma could be.

I completely disagree about the viral on spores vs miasma. Viral on miasma is awesome and provides an extra layer of utility to the ability.

Corrosive on spores is also great. 

 

Viral on spores wouldn't work with the new infinite duration thing. That basically cuts enemies hp by half until death, which is ridiculously overpowered. 

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4 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

Yes, the very same 'unintentional mechanic' that's been in Spore's ability description for those same 3 years so people could SEE that spores would 'unintentionally' spread further if the player took the time to manually pop them instead of letting it automate.  It's not just that the information was in the game, it's been in the wiki since forever too, and they updated the description for the ability with the spread differences right after the update for her came out, so the wiki people knew more about how Saryn worked than the devs did!: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Saryn/Abilities

Why are we trusting a dev who doesn't even know how Saryn works mess with her abilities again?  So far the only genuinely good changes we've seen to Saryn is Toxic Lash and some visual and audio improvements, but the speed bonus from Molt is kinda useless, changing Spores from Viral to Corrosive makes it useless against all Infested Ancients (seriously, those things just tank spores like they aren't even there) and Miasma is as 'meh' as it's always been.  Saryn is swiftly straying further away from being 'the queen of poisons' and turning in to some formless mass of damage dealing with no identity.

The salt is real.

 

Personally I love the changes to saryn. Spam spores on molt sucked and I hope it never comes back.

 

 

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All changes to Saryn from start looked so unbalanced and overpowered. Growing damage, spreading by killing... And now she will be just where it was. At "2worhtless2use" category. Why bother with some "spreading" mechanic, when it work exacly as nidus? Except he is better in all. Yeah, i know that spores will spread through walls, but come on. With new capped damage growing i don't see any point at this 500-600 damage per second, when enemies have 10-20k at ESO. 

Thanks for the first rework. It was fun.

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Can we just go back to pre-rework spores with ability to carry toxin damage? Just keep them corrosive and no molt turret :V

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