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Dev Workshop: Spores Revisited (Saryn)

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3 hours ago, Zero_Awakening said:

Not getting ANY spread on death to spore damage tic seems a bit like over-tuning her strengths in lower end content. I get that in stuff like Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, where things get super beefy, being able to scale so high is ridiculously strong. I really think the decaying mechanic is a smart way to handle things, and limiting the buildup rate are great ideas for making it not nearly as OP but sometimes it feels like the buildup is a bit slow. However.....

If spores could have any spread range on death, it would be helpful. When i'm using her just running normal content, it will be flashing at me that its decaying, i go to cast on an enemy, and i cant even get a hit in to spread it around. I've seen a few people say like 4-8m for on-death spread would be great. 4m with scaling with power range would be nice but honestly just ANY spread on death would be nice.

If giving her ANY amount of spread on death is out of the question, then not having enemies insta-kill or die before i can even shoot/hit them to spread spores to a new group would be nice. Two ways i could see going about this would be:

1) If you hit something with spores and its enough to insta-kill, it spreads to nearby enemies. In the case where the whole cluster of dudes are too weak to survive that single hit, what will happen in effect is that you will cast on 1, it will burst and hit however many nearby enemies and they would die quickly too. No crazy wave of spread, it'd be like a localized burst and you wouldn't be ramping up damage, but you would still be able to deal with groups.

2) Delay the first tic of damage -- not by much, but just enough so that its possible to hit/shoot the new target so you can spread with toxic lash.

 

read hotfix/update 05, cant spread on spore kill. jost pop spores and killed enemy. 

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So..yeah..my two cents on spores:
Micro management and spamming is real (keep hunting those things and keep Toxic Lash active or perish)
Damage ramps up a tad too slow for my liking and decreases wayyyy too fast once you fail to keep it running
Team actively works against you as they can't pop Spores
No spread on spore kill itself is good and bad,active playstyle but also demands full attention at any given moment(ello micro management)
Toxic Lash being mandatory to make spores work further adds to meh energy economy as popped spores don't refund energy anymore
RIP Molt Synergy
Miasma not spreading spores makes it a rather,,useless 4th ability as it works against your spores

Suggestions:reduce damage decay(seriously,do it),allow us and team mates to pop spores without Toxic Lash(for the love of god),have Miasma pop and spread spores,return spread on kill by spore(at reduced range if you guys deem it to cater afk players.alternatively stop making us sit around in everlasting defense or intercept missions and babysit points),return energy refund on popped spore with Toxic Lash

As is majority of your Saryn playtime consists of hunting down your spores and keeping them somehow going 

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From playing with the re re rework her spore spread seems even more inconsistent, if the target dies when you cast spore you loose full stack, attacks sometimes seem to kill before spread and derefore not spreading, spores seems to spread when they want to spread, and stop spreading on a whim, lash dont seem to make an difference.

Overall to be able to re cast spore to spread is nice, but it didnt fix the inconsistent spore spread that was present before the removal of spread by death.

Then you have the on going meta battle of having team players  counter picking equinox to stop you from spreading spores all together, not much you can do to fix counter synergies, I gues.

heres an idea that might not be popular remove damage on miastma increase range and have it spread spores at 2x range or something ot even 1x

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46 minutes ago, Serenna187 said:

So..yeah..my two cents on spores:
Micro management and spamming is real (keep hunting those things and keep Toxic Lash active or perish)
Damage ramps up a tad too slow for my liking and decreases wayyyy too fast once you fail to keep it running
Team actively works against you as they can't pop Spores
No spread on spore kill itself is good and bad,active playstyle but also demands full attention at any given moment(ello micro management)
Toxic Lash being mandatory to make spores work further adds to meh energy economy as popped spores don't refund energy anymore
RIP Molt Synergy
Miasma not spreading spores makes it a rather,,useless 4th ability as it works against your spores

Suggestions:reduce damage decay(seriously,do it),allow us and team mates to pop spores without Toxic Lash(for the love of god),have Miasma pop and spread spores,return spread on kill by spore(at reduced range if you guys deem it to cater afk players.alternatively stop making us sit around in everlasting defense or intercept missions and babysit points),return energy refund on popped spore with Toxic Lash

As is majority of your Saryn playtime consists of hunting down your spores and keeping them somehow going 

i was notice that you have delay of 2 sec between spore cast and spore start stack dmg. if someone kill that target in that interval than yes spore will not spread. i do think that they can pop spores, spread on kill but have to comfirm it in mission and simulacrum. spore spread on pop and kill, but dont spread on kill it self (as stated in hotfix 05). toxic lash in not nessessary to be active but it is batter if it is, i think that augment as well can give this ability to your team mates. you dont need to hunt spores simply re cast them. i think that decay and ramp up should be equal.

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i have given few runs and tests, as i sayed spread on pop and kill enemy by player, if kill on spore it self than no spread. if you have toxic lash active than it is way more easyer to spread.

Edited by -HoB-AngelofRevenge

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So techcnically youre making it easier for teammates while building up your dmg.  Seems good for a first ability.  Honestly before this her first was waaaay to overkill to be a first ability.

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10 hours ago, Zilotz said:

In my opinion they should roll back to uncapped damage per spore variant, it took time to ramp up too but you could speed it up to be useful.

I agree, but tone it down so its manageable at most levels of the starchart while still being relevant in endurance runs.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb (PS4)marcellusg90:

So techcnically youre making it easier for teammates while building up your dmg.  Seems good for a first ability.  Honestly before this her first was waaaay to overkill to be a first ability.

So while this may have been true at the same time her 4 was underwhelming when Spore was still Viral. Now all you need to do is mod for efficiency and range and you can not only have mutiple Viral ticks on the enemy instantly but also have them stuned indefinitely without the need to spread anything. This allows for your spores to work as a mere finishing damage (if even necessary).

What really is disappointing that "DE" didn't use this chance to actually make her the Queen of Toxicity. Her Lore is pointed towards killing Infested (Infested barely have armor) yet her Spore is Corrosive instead Toxin. Toxin would have allowed for an actuall worsening of the "infection" as the ticks would start to stack on the enemy.

So just mod your Saryn approx. 115/170/190/100 and your back to spamming one ability.

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30 minutes ago, GA-Bulletproof said:

 

What really is disappointing that "DE" didn't use this chance to actually make her the Queen of Toxicity. Her Lore is pointed towards killing Infested (Infested barely have armor) yet her Spore is Corrosive instead Toxin. Toxin would have allowed for an actuall worsening of the "infection" as the ticks would start to stack on the enemy.

 

I like this

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Queen of toxicity? Well i guess that makes limbo the king of toxicity. His gameplay is even toxic to his teammates and his 2 spreads to the forums faster than spores. 

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20 hours ago, Kolchak said:

Saryn USED to have a different kit, now it's a S#&$tier version of his.

Oh boy, this should be interesting.

 

20 hours ago, Kolchak said:

Spore spread is limited to 16m from your reticle while you're firing -snip- meaning you absolutely cannot bullet jump, keep situational awareness, interact with anything.

Huh? No really, what? This is... um.... not really true at all in any way? Does it take you 30 seconds at a time to bullet jump and keep situational awareness? Have you tried actually playing her? Because it's nothing like this, you cast spore, spread them, jump around, spread again, etc... You don't have to just aim and shoot 100% of the time.

 

20 hours ago, Kolchak said:

Spores: Within 16 meters of your reticle, 8 enemies are damaged until death. (And if I've prepped by spending 50 energy, and devote 100% of my attention and effort for the next few seconds, I can make the ability not a waste of 25 energy.)

Virulence: Within 16 meters of your reticle enemies die, especially bunched enemies (oh and lets not forget, if there's more than 4 enemies hit this costs NO energy at all, making it spammable, and I don't have to babysit it. I could get into synergy, but that's just beating a dead horse, this is just better already)

Um.... okay so, maybe you're not aware. You see, Virulence is in a straight line and is mostly LoS, and does spike damage only. Spores is NLoS in a large radius, does DoT, and strips armor. Saryn can corrode and kill enemies in the next room, but has to keep her damage up. Virulence only works in the room you're in, requires less baby sitting, but has a maximum theoretical damage. Also Virulence requires repeated Larva casts, sometimes 1 cast for every cast of virulence, while Spores only requires Toxic Lash to be cast once in a while (it has pretty good base duration).

 

21 hours ago, Kolchak said:

Molt: A decoy where you just were that disables and gathers things that are closer to it than they are to you. (Oh but it can explode for 400 damage! which actually makes it harder to spread spores since the effect would simply pop spores, reduce health, and either reapply the spores with the enemy having MUCH less health, making it more likely to see spore damage kill the unit, which ends spore's effects and your damage starts to decay. Is there such a word as De-synergize? Cause this thing's doing it. and all for 50 energy a pop.)

Larva: Within 12 meters of your reticle, you can disable and gather enemies for 7 seconds. And it literally synergizes with every other ability. And all for 25 energy, meaning recasting it should it wear off is no problem. 100% better in every way.

When did larva get the ability to buff your speed and heal you? Can Nidus do that now?

 

21 hours ago, Kolchak said:

Toxic Lash: For 50 energy, you can reliably pop spores and get a situational buff. (This must be on, otherwise spores are useless, and will not spread with any consistency. This isn't synergy, this is the on button for your frame now. If this isn't up, you're doing it wrong.)

Parasitic Link: For NO energy, just a stack of the resource your free spammable virulence generates, you get to either boost a teammate's ability strength by 25% or disable an enemy and transfer 50% of the damage and all status effects that Nidus would take to that enemy. (Did I forget to mention that this also turns them into a turret, making them also launch virulence with each cast? Once again, 100% better.)

You're not even trying to make these sound the same. I thought her kit was just a bad version of Nidus's? Also you might not realize it but Toxic Lash gives a very good damage buff, and I believe even adds a free status proc, which works great with CO and healing return. These are just not the same in any way, I'm not sure how you're claiming they are.

 

21 hours ago, Kolchak said:

Miasma: For 100 energy you get a 5 second aoe viral proc and 350 damage viral a second, X3 if the enemy has spores. (Once again, another great way to prematurely end spores and lose your damage bonus for mediocre damage per energy cost. And boy does it cost.)

Ravenous: For NO energy just 3 stacks of the resource you get from your free spammable virulence, you create a healing field 16 meters wide around you that also creates 9 maggots that function like spores, but they're better cause you don't have to babysit them. Once again, getting further into the ability is unnecessary, It's already better by a wide margin.

So once again these are not the same and you don't even try to make it sound like they are. Miasma is not a worse version of Ravenous, they don't do similar things at all. Ravenous doesn't viral proc enemies or do instant spike damage, Miasma doesn't heal you. Maggots are nothing like spores, and they're slow and limited by that slowness. Spores are NLoS damage and corrosive procs that travel instantly. Once again they are not comparable. Tell me, is Inaros also a "worse version of Nidus" since they both have 4 abilities? Inaros even has a healing 4 and a 2 that makes you temporarily invincible! What about Rhino? Is he a worse version of Nidus since they both have a buffing ability? Trin can heal and link to enemies just like Nidus can, is she a worse version of NIdus too? This comparison just isn't convincing to me at all.

Also, I'm pretty sure she uses LESS energy now than she did not long ago. Now you can cast Spores once and spread over and over again, instead of having to cast over and over again. I've been running Hunter Adrenaline and double Guardian, works great. I take her to elite onslaught and don't even need Zenurik. You should try it. I'll bet it would be more fun than... whatever it is you're doing in this thread,

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  • 1st reworked spore is too damn strong but it had one flaw, maintaining the chain damage, but yeah another rework is here.
  • 2nd rework for me i'll give it an 8/10 score, it'd be perfect if the decay rate be lower than 10%(yeah i know dur mods can lower this more), it already has the 20%(and yes i know this is also affected by Str mods) spore decay dmg each time you ran out of targets.

TL;DR: Lower the 10% spore decay/sec by a bit, and it will be perfect(atleast for me).

 

12 hours ago, GA-Bulletproof said:

~snip~
What really is disappointing that "DE" didn't use this chance to actually make her the Queen of Toxicity. Her Lore is pointed towards killing Infested (Infested barely have armor) yet her Spore is Corrosive instead Toxin. Toxin would have allowed for an actuall worsening of the "infection" as the ticks would start to stack on the enemy.

So just mod your Saryn approx. 115/170/190/100 and your back to spamming one ability.


You want to nerf spore damage?.
Toxin damage bypasses shields to directly affect health, although it does not bypass armor. (Sincerely by Wikia).
Toxic lash is there to provide your thirst for Toxin damage.


Do you realize the scaling armor by the grineer right? Unless you're running below sortie levels and thats alright.
Toxin is pretty intense because it can stack multiple times, and as stated above by wikia, it'll be mitigated by armor so, NO.
Unless you be spammin melee to all your targets with Shattering Impact.

Corrosive is best for all faction, period.

Edited by pabiring
grammar check
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Totaly destroys the flow of Saryn - now the gameplay feels like struggeling to keep spores alive or get a good position and press 4 - R.I.P. Saryn we meet after your next rework 

 

if you make it even possible to spread spores with Miasma it would help a lot

Edited by Demian_DeVile
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I've tested the new spores on starchart and I must say, I like these changes.

First and foremost - your team mates are no longer a liability to you, which is amazing news if you ask me.

I had doubts about spores not spreading on spore killing the enemy, but fortunately, the ability to re-cast makes up for it, without making the whole ability passive - as in, you cast spores and they spread by themselves as long as there are fresh spawns, which used to happen before. Now you have to actually move and do some own damage to spread further, which I actually like.

Now, the damage on spores scales of only up to 10 infected. Here's my minor issue - I was unable to ramp up big damage numbers as before, on the other hand, the numbers I was getting were far more consistent, which in my opinion is not really a bad thing in itself - especially given the massive debuff spread Saryn has (I was able to consistently keep spores on 18+ enemies on lvl 30 defense). Still, I can see why some would be disappointed with this fact. 

The other small issue lies with the fact that spores themselves no longer spread if they kill something - what if spore kills the target you were shooting and ruins the spread? That is a potential issue here, though I have yet to really encounter it - still, the idea that bodies could still have spores on them to pop a few seconds after death is a good one in my opinion. Or perhaps, bodies could leave behind a poppable "boil" on the ground that you could further spread spores from by shooting, something similar to boiler's spores? That would actually be quite awesome, when I think about it.

Either way, I find this change to be good. Return of re-cast is great and feels more natural than a single cast + detonate. Your team is no longer a detriment - spores spread more consistently now - and I'm talking here from a perspective of someone NOT running 200+% range build.

Edited by HidesHisFace

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SARYN CHANGES I WOULD LIKE TO SEE AND WHAT I DON'T LIKE:

I really hate that Miasma isn't really good like it was before changes(still not useful). It's just good to add viral but thanks to spores it will kill enemies faster which mean it will end spore chain faster, which is a downside. In many cases you wont even use Miasma. It should make that all enemies killed by anything while being affected by miasma duration will spread spores with 100% range also add more damage to spores. For example +10 damage (affected by strength) for every tick (max 10 enemies just as spores).

Molt is useless too, without augment it's not helping, it's just useless speed boost for several seconds and some fire draw but that's not enough. Explosion damage should count to spore damage for example and on explosion should hit spores, which mean the explosion will be able to spread spores.

Also hate the spores that don't have range spread on kill because I was several times in the situation where I just cast a spore on an enemy and before I managed to charge my Ogris to shoot the target and spread, someone one shot that target without hitting the spore so it did not spread further. At lest 4-6 meters range not affected by power range would be fine OR one cast spore already infects several enemies in 4-6 meters range from the target. So even if someone kill one, you still have 2-3 more enemies that have spores. Also damage falling too fast if spores end the chain.

Edited by IfritKajiTora

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb pabiring:
  • You want to nerf spore damage?.

Toxin damage bypasses shields to directly affect health, although it does not bypass armor. (Sincerely by Wikia).
Toxic lash is there to provide your thirst for Toxin damage.


Do you realize the scaling armor by the grineer right? Unless you're running below sortie levels and thats alright.
Toxin is pretty intense because it can stack multiple times, and as stated above by wikia, it'll be mitigated by armor so, NO.
Unless you be spammin melee to all your targets with Shattering Impact.

Corrosive is best for all faction, period.

Looking at it from a solo point of view yes corrosive would be better. In order to actually take full advantage of Toxin stacks her one would have to work like Nidus stacks anyway (worsening of the infection like I wrote). 

At the same time her Miasma could then scale of the damage of her Spores. 

So many ways to make her more fun. She doesn't have to be buffed in order to be that.

I wonder where the people were when her spores were still Viral asking for them to be Corrosive...because you know best for all factions, period. 

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11 hours ago, pabiring said:
  • 1st reworked spore is too damn strong but it had one flaw, maintaining the chain damage, but yeah another rework is here.
  • 2nd rework for me i'll give it an 8/10 score, it'd be perfect if the decay rate be lower than 10%(yeah i know dur mods can lower this more), it already has the 20%(and yes i know this is also affected by Str mods) spore decay dmg each time you ran out of targets.

TL;DR: Lower the 10% spore decay/sec by a bit, and it will be perfect(atleast for me).

 


You want to nerf spore damage?.
Toxin damage bypasses shields to directly affect health, although it does not bypass armor. (Sincerely by Wikia).
Toxic lash is there to provide your thirst for Toxin damage.


Do you realize the scaling armor by the grineer right? Unless you're running below sortie levels and thats alright.
Toxin is pretty intense because it can stack multiple times, and as stated above by wikia, it'll be mitigated by armor so, NO.
Unless you be spammin melee to all your targets with Shattering Impact.

Corrosive is best for all faction, period.

49 minutes ago, GA-Bulletproof said:

Looking at it from a solo point of view yes corrosive would be better. In order to actually take full advantage of Toxin stacks her one would have to work like Nidus stacks anyway (worsening of the infection like I wrote). 

At the same time her Miasma could then scale of the damage of her Spores. 

So many ways to make her more fun. She doesn't have to be buffed in order to be that.

I wonder where the people were when her spores were still Viral asking for them to be Corrosive...because you know best for all factions, period. 

viral is far batter than corrosive. we have mechanic for striping armor and dont need another frame which can make them walk in pyjama around. there are no aura that can reduce total % of their health, we have CP for armor only (example).

Edited by -HoB-AngelofRevenge
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This re-rework is very very good. Nice work.

I have only one suggestion.

Miasma:: Instead of a straight 200% damage gain for enemies under Spores (and since Miasma no longer spreads Spores), could we see a new synergy between Spore damage and Miasma damage? Such as if Spores are under 100 total damage per tic, Miasma does normal damage. 101-200 Spore dpt, Miasma does 150% damage. 201-300 dpt, 200% and so on [Numbers for example only, not facts or suggestions]. So basically, the higher one runs Spores on damage per tic, the harder Miasma hits (offset by the fact that Miasma will kill off Spore carriers and slow/stop the dpt increase with the new Degradation system). This way, players have to work to get those -big- hits with Miasma, and it puts some of the complex synergy back into Saryn that many of use loved.

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12 hours ago, Azrael said:

Oh boy, this should be interesting.

although i don't agree with him saying she's a bad version of nidus, if you want to nitpick i can help with that.

12 hours ago, Azrael said:

Virulence is in a straight line and is mostly LoS, and does spike damage only. Spores is NLoS in a large radius, does DoT, and strips armor. Saryn can corrode and kill enemies in the next room, but has to keep her damage up. Virulence only works in the room you're in, requires less baby sitting, but has a maximum theoretical damage. Also Virulence requires repeated Larva casts, sometimes 1 cast for every cast of virulence, while Spores only requires Toxic Lash to be cast once in a while (it has pretty good base duration).

virulence has a max theoretical damage, yes. with 200% power strength, max stacks and double casting from parasitic link it comes to 86k, pretty close to the 100k max theoretical for spore (because yes, spore also "has a maximum theoretical damage"). virulence theoretical max is also way easier to reach, and to maintain besides. when is the last time you reached over 15k stored damage for spore? as for armour stripping, weapons can do it very easily and very quickly (try pox or torid for instance)

if you need larva each time you cast virulence, learn to aim. with double cast from parasitic link, you only need to hit 2 targets to maintain your energy. you only "need" larva if you want to clean the whole room.

12 hours ago, Azrael said:

When did larva get the ability to buff your speed and heal you? Can Nidus do that now?

no need for heal when the enemies are hard-CCed and can't hit you. besides nidus heals both passively and from ravenous. ravenous who also deals 9k/seconds or 30k per worm detonation with 200%pwr strength btw.

12 hours ago, Azrael said:

So once again these are not the same and you don't even try to make it sound like they are. Miasma is not a worse version of Ravenous, they don't do similar things at all. Ravenous doesn't viral proc enemies or do instant spike damage

talk about not knowing stuff. 30k instant AoE damage (per worm, so up to 270k at once) not enough to qualify as spike damage for you?

12 hours ago, Azrael said:

Also, I'm pretty sure she uses LESS energy now than she did not long ago. Now you can cast Spores once and spread over and over again, instead of having to cast over and over again. I've been running Hunter Adrenaline and double Guardian, works great. I take her to elite onslaught and don't even need Zenurik. You should try it. I'll bet it would be more fun than... whatever it is you're doing in this thread,

maybe you should have tried to really play saryn before the rework, because there was 0 need to spam spores outside of the spore/molt strategy. you could cast it once, and keep spreading it, and with it your toxin procs (for upwards of thousands of damage per tick in seconds) that scaled way faster than it does now. and if you played her melee, you didn't even need hunter adrenaline thanks to the energy regen from toxic lash. and if you think she is perfectly fine as she is now, i encourage you to take her out on high level missions outside of onslaught.

-------

saryn is in a pretty good place right now, she suffers from several minor problems, for which there are several possible solutions, discussed in this or other threads. we just need to keep pushing until those are resolved, before DE stops working on the rework.

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Change seems alright for me, but I am frustruated about side offect of the change.

Please, let allies to pop up the spores now then, if they won't spread on death

And fix the issue with enemy dying instantly on re-cast of spores, not being able to spread them.

And decay speed is way too fast, needs re-working

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You ripped out a couple of mechanics to make room for Saryn 3.0, then you rip out more to make room for Saryn 3.5. and now Saryn is a "chase the spores minigame" and more energy hungry than 2.0 Saryn. Please revert the changes to spread and change/remove something else instead, you've completely ruined her gameplay flow, it was much better when she was in her 2.0 form.

Edited by Top_Kekkonen
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I cant believe saryn has been mutilated like this. I remember the first rework... She was the best nuke in the game, u didn't like that... U reworked her. The rework was actually good... I mean u guys made her into a tremendously fun frame.

Yes she could nuke a room, but not a 1 button push like before. Some people complained as some always do, but for the most part... People loved her.

Then This..  i cant see the good in this. Playin saryn now looks like alot of work, for little gain. Atlas rubble mechanic is akot of wirk... But the gain is huge, if only the rate that armor decreases was less, atlas would be perfect. 

If this is the new trend... Making all frames require tons of painstaking upkeep to maintain, then the rewards should be dynamic. I kno u guys can do better than this... Plz dont send console to cert until u fix this.

Also, u dropped forced synergy and did away with any meaningful synergy.  Miasma is weaker than before, and it was already pretty weak. What the heck?

Otherwise, appreciate you DE.

 

Edited by (PS4)big_eviljak
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