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[DE]Danielle

Dev Workshop: Spores Revisited (Saryn)

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A target dying with Spores on it should increase the Infection counter, independent of the "max 10" counter increases. This would promote actually KILLING things as a way to increase your counter, as opposed to WANTING THINGS TO LIVE to increase it.

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After some more testing, I can tell that this rework is ok. The more I play it, the more I like it.

It does what it was supposed to thanks to lack of spread on spore death.

Basically, the Saryn that casts the spores and goes to make a tea while her little bubbles to all the work is gone. Now you HAVE to actually work to keep your stuff spreading, which I find fair and definitely more dynamic.

Spores feel strong and reasonably consistent. The raw damage output is not that high as before but acts as a natural limiter to the ability, because at one point they may do so much damage they won't spread anymore, which prevents her from clearing entire rooms without even looking. 

The fact that you have to spread stuff yourself allows me to make use of all abilities - stuff I never used before, like toxic lash.

Since I'm closer to combat at all times, I have more opportunities to use molt - for regeneration (that should be, honestly, a standard for this ability) and as an escape/mobility tool.

Toxic lash makes spreading stuff far easier and is a massive buff in own right and the fact it now affects ranged weapons is a huge boost.

Miasma - every time I'm actually surrounded by spored enemies - it makes them die real quick. 

 

All in all, it synergises very well with my current build:

75% duration, 175% efficiency, 145% strength and range - I no longer need to go 200%+ range to make Saryn viable, which is a nice change in my opinion.

All in all, I can say, good work.

I was not a fan of single cast mechanic + detonation, but this iteration works well for me.

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Sary is no longer so broken in the onslaught. Though the situation is other missions is still rather bad.

It's better but can use some more polish.  Right now Saryn gameplay is too busy and energy-hungry since you cast spores and Lash a lot. And I still have positive efficiency.

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I think it's nice that people don't feel like they need 280% range because we can recast, but adding back the +2 energy on toxic lash spore pop would really help. Maybe melee only, maybe not. Also add the energy mechanic to the description, because that's the only reason a lot of people didn't know about it.

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Saryn rework is better than before but her play style seems weird in a way for best result to spread spore using aoe provide consistent result. Friendly killing enemy doesn't spread spore or it is inconsistent because of two reasons firstly ally can.hit the enemy but not burst any spore causing the enemy to just die and no spread of spore was there, secondly enemy even though you're shooting it might for coz of spore tick damage resulting in no spread of spores. So what I found to be most consistent way is to spread spores was a meele weapon with high range and keeping the toxic lash on always. 

The gameplay with new saryn felt like more of chase then actually being fun. If thefe was even a 1/4 of the range spread on death by tick rate or reducing the spread durations to even less would help her a lot. 

Having the +2 energy on toxic lash would help her a lot in high level missions where enemies that drain energy are abundant.

I don't know if she would be tweaked any more maybe next to next year. Let's hope DE listens and make her more fun and make her ability feel less of a chase.

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On 2018-05-23 at 4:26 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

[Snip]

      • For the sake of best describing the intent of this change, we’d like to point out some of the unexpected irony between both workshops. While work on Saryn began very early on this year, the first assumption was that change was amidst her performance in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught. What actually ended up transpiring (post rework) was quite the opposite. Saryn as she is now continues to take charge in Onslaught (more so now than before). However, she’s a bit of a “one cast wonder” in Simaris’ realm. Sitting back and watching Spores destroy a map didn’t fall in line with that fun factor we were looking for with Saryn, and especially not for the other members in Saryn squads.

[Snip]

 

I'm going to call bullS#&$ because of how onslaught-specific these changes seem to be and how they ONLY change the things that were effective in that specific mode. Most maps don't have anywhere nearly as many tightly-grouped enemies as Onslaught so saryn's "Buff" becomes a very hard nerf.

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15 hours ago, Top_Kekkonen said:

You need to chase the spores because spores cost energy, and if you recast and recast, you'll quickly find out that spores has turned into a energy black hole. And Saryn in her current state has never been so energy hungry. 

I just flat out disagree with this assertion. Spores are super cheap to cast and even more so if re-cast while infection is active. They're literally designed to be efficient in contrast to other abilities in the game. If you can't manage enough energy to cast Spores then you're dealing with an entirely separate issue.

17 hours ago, Azrael said:

Because recasting drops your spore damage by a significant amount. This is one of the things I dislike about the rework, actually.

After a quick test in the simulacrum I realized I misunderstood how the damage reduction on re-cast actually works so I can see where you are coming from there. That being said, even at only 100% power strength the damage reduction equates to basically one ticks worth of ramp which, in my opinion, is not a good reason to chase.

In conclusion I will say it could be argued that if you want to chase Spores there is some minor reward in it, but to say that players need to is irrational.

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2 minutes ago, Slimspadey101 said:

I just flat out disagree with this assertion. Spores are super cheap to cast and even more so if re-cast while infection is active. They're literally designed to be efficient in contrast to other abilities in the game. If you can't manage enough energy to cast Spores then you're dealing with an entirely separate issue.

After a quick test in the simulacrum I realized I misunderstood how the damage reduction on re-cast actually works so I can see where you are coming from there. That being said, even at only 100% power strength the damage reduction equates to basically one ticks worth of ramp which, in my opinion, is not a good reason to chase.

In conclusion I will say it could be argued that if you want to chase Spores there is some minor reward in it, but to say that players need to is irrational.

It's the chase of bursting spores. Maybe he is using high strength build which if spores have high initial damage can outright kill enemy, since enemy who die from spore damage don't spread spores that energy gets wasted. Second possible reason is you need an aoe style weapon and toxic lash "always on" on saryn else the spread even with your kills provide very inconsistent spreads. Everyone is running meele saryn with toxic lash in simulacrum try it as if you're an ally don't use toxic lash and use your general rifle etc, the results are drastically different.

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3 minutes ago, Synduex said:

It's the chase of bursting spores. Maybe he is using high strength build which if spores have high initial damage can outright kill enemy, since enemy who die from spore damage don't spread spores that energy gets wasted. Second possible reason is you need an aoe style weapon and toxic lash "always on" on saryn else the spread even with your kills provide very inconsistent spreads. Everyone is running meele saryn with toxic lash in simulacrum try it as if you're an ally don't use toxic lash and use your general rifle etc, the results are drastically different.

Okay I did notice one instance where I shot a spore directly with my secondary (Vaykor Marelok) and it didn't spread to nearby enemies. This is clearly a bug though so I wouldn't use it as a citation in an argument against the rework. Also, if your Spores outright kill an enemy on cast then the energy isn't wasted at all I mean you just one shot that dude what else do you want from an ability? The problem isn't Spores it's your build or your expectations or something else that isn't caused by the design of Spores. Show me an example of another ability in the game that when it kills an enemy in one shot you consider it a bad thing or a waste of energy.

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19 minutes ago, Slimspadey101 said:

Okay I did notice one instance where I shot a spore directly with my secondary (Vaykor Marelok) and it didn't spread to nearby enemies. This is clearly a bug though so I wouldn't use it as a citation in an argument against the rework. Also, if your Spores outright kill an enemy on cast then the energy isn't wasted at all I mean you just one shot that dude what else do you want from an ability? The problem isn't Spores it's your build or your expectations or something else that isn't caused by the design of Spores. Show me an example of another ability in the game that when it kills an enemy in one shot you consider it a bad thing or a waste of energy.

Hmm trust me not the build I’m active just presenting evidence in the argument my friend since neither i stated the rework is bad in any way and im up for the synegies it brought. The spores isn’t exactly meant or specifically focused on one enemy it’s like a disease which is best utilized when spread on multiple enemies. I am presenting the argument coz i saw the inconsistency very frequently especially when you’re not the host. I tested her build on multipel rounds on eso, so, hydron, akkad, mot, ani, xoxomo and I found this consistent that whenever an ally kills and enemy there is very inconsistent spread or none at all. I tried multiple weapon combos as well found rifles, snipers high rate weapons have very inconsistent results the best result are obtained from aoe weapons like ignis, arca plasmor etc or meele weapons with toxic lash on. There is an inconsistency but its no bug the spores were designed like tgat they burst and spread right? 

This design brings inconsistencies in my opinion. As for builds i have tried from low power strength to high power strength currently best result i got was from 123% duration, 100% efficiency, 199% range, 204% strength.

dont take my critisim as her rework ruined her or shes nerfed, shes not however in team scenarios she has to get all the kills to maintain a better spread and keep her spores going

 

 

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I got an Idea how it is maybe possible to bring back the flow to Saryn make that the spreading by tick kill just happend if the Spore have ticked 3- 6 times means if it don't tick a specific number it won't spread if it kills - this will make an not so big  and fast Spreading and if the damage tickes so hight that it kills with less than needed ticks it won't spread anymore - than do the damage increase like now depend on infestet enemies without cap but like you did befor that it goes up and stops if last Spore runs out and you can put a cap an Spore casts means I can cast Spores 3 Times if I do Abtility again all Spores explodes with remaining Damage - this will bring a good Flow without beeing like you take care of "set and forget" playstyle 

Edited by Demian_DeVile

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27 minutes ago, Demian_DeVile said:

I got an Idea how it is maybe possible to bring back the flow to Saryn make that the spreading by tick kill just happend if the Spore have ticked 3-6 times means if it don't tick a specific number it won't spread if it kills - this will make an not so big Spreading and if the damage tickes so hight that it kills with less than needed ticks it won't spread anymore - than do the damage increase like now depend on infestet enemies without cap but like you did befor that it goes up and stops if last Spore runs out and you can put a cap an Spore casts means I can cast Spores 3 Times if I do Abtility again all Spores explodes with remaining Damage - this will bring a good Flow without beeing like you take care of "set and forget" playstyle 

What if enemy dieing spread spores 1/4 of duration and 1/4 of range

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The reworked Saryn feels way too clunky, consumes too much energy, and requires a crap ton of micro-managing that is does not fit the fast pace action of this game. All of her powers now revolve around casting 1, synergy is good, but making synergy focus on one ability is wack. 

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20 minutes ago, Ogarra_Remaellus said:

The reworked Saryn feels way too clunky, consumes too much energy, and requires a crap ton of micro-managing that is does not fit the fast pace action of this game. All of her powers now revolve around casting 1, synergy is good, but making synergy focus on one ability is wack. 

I agree and even her spores spreading isn’t consistent. Saryn player whole match is running around to keep the tick and trying to keep it spreading which feels weird. I do understand why DE had to remove the spreading of spore on death mechanism however the players who play that way already found ways to counter it. Theys stopped using saryn instead they are back to equinox and trinity with link and castanas setup. Trinity just self damage and everyone poof gone. 

Edited by Synduex
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11 hours ago, HidesHisFace said:

After some more testing, I can tell that this rework is ok. The more I play it, the more I like it.

It does what it was supposed to thanks to lack of spread on spore death.

Basically, the Saryn that casts the spores and goes to make a tea while her little bubbles to all the work is gone. Now you HAVE to actually work to keep your stuff spreading, which I find fair and definitely more dynamic.

Spores feel strong and reasonably consistent. The raw damage output is not that high as before but acts as a natural limiter to the ability, because at one point they may do so much damage they won't spread anymore, which prevents her from clearing entire rooms without even looking. 

The fact that you have to spread stuff yourself allows me to make use of all abilities - stuff I never used before, like toxic lash.

Since I'm closer to combat at all times, I have more opportunities to use molt - for regeneration (that should be, honestly, a standard for this ability) and as an escape/mobility tool.

Toxic lash makes spreading stuff far easier and is a massive buff in own right and the fact it now affects ranged weapons is a huge boost.

Miasma - every time I'm actually surrounded by spored enemies - it makes them die real quick. 

 

All in all, it synergises very well with my current build:

75% duration, 175% efficiency, 145% strength and range - I no longer need to go 200%+ range to make Saryn viable, which is a nice change in my opinion.

All in all, I can say, good work.

I was not a fan of single cast mechanic + detonation, but this iteration works well for me.

hm. Pretty similar to what I ran in terms of range lol. But personally I still prefer being able to still do damage, and help out teammates with viral procing aoe -- If it was viral tbh I dont think I would have much qualms besides just some hiccups that arent too bad.

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Honestly, if the Spores are staying with no spread on death, we need energy gain back on Toxic Lash to make up for the more energy hunger ability useage.

Alternatively, give it back spread on death, but reduce the range on the spread when it does so.

I also feel like the damage ramp is way too slow now, cap it at 15-20 instead of 10.

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Returning the spore-tick-death-spread would certainly help alleviate energy hungriness due to people feeling the need to spam Toxic Lash to ensure the spores spread, and the stress of chasing spores to kill them before the spores do.

Damage maintenance is the real issue here, and it currently feels like we need more options.  Maybe upon death enemies can leave spore clouds that Saryns can collect and distribute, and the clouds decay slower while a Saryn is holding them, giving you some resource like Atlas with his rock-collection, and the other abilities can use the resource to do fun stuff.
Or maybe some sort of 'Hold button to do X' variant of Spores that can help with spread and decay management, to put less stress on Toxic Lash and energy hunger.

I'd definitely like to see more of a death cloud element to Saryn.

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Have not experienced the heavy drain too much myself really. Just use 2 different builds based on high or low level. High level is definitely her best spot though.

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I would rather see a spore tick kill reducing your damage counter by 10 (or perhpas 1-2%), this keeps the incentive to burst some spores yourself but also doesn't make you panic that much when all enemies you find are 1 tick kills because those last few nox/eximus (name your tanky units) put the damage up so high that every normal charger/crewman dies the instant you try to recast it on them. I would rather have just 20% range on spore tick deaths WITH a reduction on the damage counter then the current system. It's just to impossible to keep your spores active without putting your entire build into being made just for that. Especially if you're not using spray and pray weapons or projectiles since the enemies die before your arrows hit.

 

TL;DR; Please add spore spread on death and make it reduce damage counter and have reduced spread range so its no longer a MUST to equip Ignis on saryn. (it is by far the easier weapon to mod/use for maximum spore popping)

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Or make 2 different Spore Mechanics one for the Saturary and one for the normal Gameplay - you changed her cause of the Sancturary so why it is possible to make own Abtility mechanics to Conclave but not for the Santurary?

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16 hours ago, Slimspadey101 said:

Okay I did notice one instance where I shot a spore directly with my secondary (Vaykor Marelok) and it didn't spread to nearby enemies. This is clearly a bug though so I wouldn't use it as a citation in an argument against the rework. Also, if your Spores outright kill an enemy on cast then the energy isn't wasted at all I mean you just one shot that dude what else do you want from an ability? The problem isn't Spores it's your build or your expectations or something else that isn't caused by the design of Spores. Show me an example of another ability in the game that when it kills an enemy in one shot you consider it a bad thing or a waste of energy.

Volts ult.

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well so far i am not concerned about spore chase. simply cast spores again and kill. we cant get both high dmg and keep it trough mission undecreased. so far i do like this spores more than 3.0 but to be clear 2.0 spores was best 🙂

highly dislike corrosive as nature but i can only complain about it. did any of you tryed on bit higher duration like 128 instead of 68%? i do run on usual dps build and do decrease fast, but i can recast it so i guess it is ok. play game insted of chase statistic for high/nuke dmg

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On 2018-05-24 at 7:37 AM, Chipboard said:

Changes seem pretty good.

I approve of the recasting for detonation as sometimes trying to get a spore to find a valid target before someone with an atterax came through, only for you to mash the key again and watch it pop for no damage.

Probably already stated somewhere but will we see the Venom Dose augment fixed with these changes?

Yes the vwnom dose augment will be changed.

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2 hours ago, Quimoth said:

TL;DR; Please add spore spread on death and make it reduce damage counter and have reduced spread range so its no longer a MUST to equip Ignis on saryn. (it is by far the easier weapon to mod/use for maximum spore popping)

 

Similar changes were implemented but we're changed around so I do not believe it will be happening soon.

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