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Dev Workshop: Spores Revisited (Saryn)

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1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

So you're right you can scale for levels. I was wrong. Let me rephrase my sentence and say flat damage cannot be both good at high and low level content.

Exactly and this is something some of us have been trying to get across to DE on ALL reworks, flat damage values based off mods isn't good for scaling, it just so happens that on saryn it's on the low end when it's normally on the high end like with say embers wof.. it's great at low end but it doesn't scale for high end because it's a fixed value.

Edited by LSG501
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12 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Exactly and this is something some of us have been trying to get across to DE on ALL reworks, flat damage values based off mods isn't good for scaling, it just so happens that on saryn it's on the low end when it's normally on the high end like with say embers wof.. it's great at low end but it doesn't scale for high end because it's a fixed value.

But not every frame can be doing % based enemy health.

EDIT:

It is inevitable that some frames will have flat damage, and flat damage cannot both be good at low and high end content.

Edited by Cibyllae

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But why would you wanna spread spores or use them to apply corrosive in a low level mission? The mobs would die long before corrosive made a difference

 

 

 

cause 1) Miasma spam is boring, 2) devs don't like these kind of playstyles(Miasma spam) so it's highly possible that they'll nerf Miasma if this continues. and if we look at molt+spore spam playstyle devs do change these playstyles cause they don't like them

and that's why we say to bring back the spore spread on death by tick damage(like it was in Saryn 2.0 and not like it is now) but tweak the spread range as i've suggested for balance. 5-8m is fine for missions outside onslaught that have lower density enemy spawn. also this will remove the Miasma spam at low levels so we're safe from devs nerfing Miasma to prevent the spam at low level missions and ruin the ability at high level and even at low level. with this change at low level players will use spores and toxic lash, and at higher level they will also use Miasma

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43 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

But not every frame can be doing % based enemy health. 

EDIT:

It is inevitable that some frames will have flat damage, and flat damage cannot both be good at low and high end content.

But something like saryn can be % based, you yourself even suggested it by taking % of an enemy stat, personally I'd pick something that scales with enemy level so health or armour (perfect if they stay with corrosive) for the tick.  Yes it might need a little tweaking to get the balance right so it's not overpowered but its more than a workable alternative to a flat damage.

And personally I don't see why any frame has to be flat damage values when we have a game that has scaling enemies.

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10 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

But something like saryn can be % based, you yourself even suggested it by taking % of an enemy stat, personally I'd pick something that scales with enemy level so health or armour (perfect if they stay with corrosive) for the tick.  Yes it might need a little tweaking to get the balance right so it's not overpowered but its more than a workable alternative to a flat damage.

Yes someone like Saryn CAN be percent based, but it is inevitable that SOME frames will have flat damage. So if Saryn doesn't have % based damage, then we just have to accept that she has flat damage. Because Saryn can be percent based, she doesn't have to be percent based.

10 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

And personally I don't see why any frame has to be flat damage values when we have a game that has scaling enemies. 

Extrapolate please

Edited by Cibyllae

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35 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

Extrapolate please

As we all know the enemies get harder the higher their level.  With a fixed value to the damage coming from the frame ability you hit a 'wall' which you can't get past when it comes to damage output. 

Most simple way of looking at it (obviously not realistic but it gives you the idea).  Now obviously it wouldn't be a straight up percentage, in the real world there would be some other calculations involved to allow a difficulty ramp but a percentage base would allow it to be a fair balance unlike what we have now.  Not to mention there are things like armour etc to consider.

Ability with mods has fixed damage of 100 to health

Enemy at level 1 has health of 10 - does 100 damage - 1 shot

Enemy at level 100 has health of 1000 - does 100 damage - 10 shots

Enemy at level 1000 has health of 10000. - does 100 damage - 100 shots

Change the damage to say 10% of health

Enemy at level 1 has health of 10 - does 1 damage - 10 shots

Enemy at level 100 has health of 1000 - does 100 damage - 10 shots

Enemy at level 1000 has health of 10000 - does 1000 damage - 10 shots

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25 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Most simple way of looking at it (obviously not realistic but it gives you the idea).  Now obviously it wouldn't be a straight up percentage, in the real world there would be some other calculations involved to allow a difficulty ramp but a percentage base would allow it to be a fair balance unlike what we have now.  Not to mention there are things like armour etc to consider

Right that was my inertial reaction to what you said but I think you were careful to differentiate between flat and scaling, not flat and percentage. Percentage based damage is not the only type of scaling but it is a ready example and option. I think you are advocating for scaling damage, not necessarily percentage damage, which I can get behind.

EDIT: While percentage is a certain kind of scaling damage, I am not behind maximum percentage based damage.

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

personally I'd pick something that scales with enemy level so health or armour (perfect if they stay with corrosive) for the tick.  Yes it might need a little tweaking to get the balance right so it's not overpowered but its more than a workable alternative to a flat damage.

That would be insane, that would almost be like reducing enemy level scaling. Its genius, at a first glance it wouldn't be operation intensive. And it might be as simple as reverse engineering the scaling formulas for enemies, almost like solving for the inverse of the equations and then using a modified version of that formula for spore damage. There is much they could do with that.

Edited by Cibyllae

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After playing Saryn a lot. I feel she really spores passive spread again. It doesn't need to be full range, maybe only half or 1/4, but without it her game play feels very clunky and awkward. I find spore spread very inconsistent and difficult to maintain. Ally kills don't seem to do anything, and I think this is because many times a spore tick will get the killing blow even if an ally whitles it down.

It may also be possible that there is something wrong because many times my spores die out even though there are other enemies close by, and I am using toxic lash. Overall Saryn feels much less fun for me that when her rework first dropped.

Please DE give Saryn back at least some passive spore spread.

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Shoot if most aren't liking spores and miasma changes they may as well revert to 2.0 lol.

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What I see a lot actually is people wondering how to propperly stack up to 1000+ damage in low level missions but do not stop and think if they should stack up to 1000+.

Because at those levels you often only need to keep around 300 to stay effective and that is doable by bringing down spore damage by casting.

Pretty much allowed me to be top killer and top damage in most of my smaller runs including starchart level exterminate and such. Just keep casting spores like the old days.

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16 hours ago, Raijin83 said:

cause 1) Miasma spam is boring, 2) devs don't like these kind of playstyles(Miasma spam) so it's highly possible that they'll nerf Miasma if this continues. and if we look at molt+spore spam playstyle devs do change these playstyles cause they don't like them

and that's why we say to bring back the spore spread on death by tick damage(like it was in Saryn 2.0 and not like it is now) but tweak the spread range as i've suggested for balance. 5-8m is fine for missions outside onslaught that have lower density enemy spawn. also this will remove the Miasma spam at low levels so we're safe from devs nerfing Miasma to prevent the spam at low level missions and ruin the ability at high level and even at low level. with this change at low level players will use spores and toxic lash, and at higher level they will also use Miasma

As I said, they dont balance around low level content. So miasma spam by high levels is viable in low level content. They changed Saryn into what she is now because she was too passive prior to and after itteration one. Spamming isnt their issue if you need to be active about it. All frames with a damaging #1 and #4 does it, Saryn is no different.

Saryn works perfectly fine as she is since she can do both low and high level content just fine.

Also regarding your other post to me. My §4 was an answer to one of your previous hostile posts, it was not in relation to §3 in the same post. If you werent so upset and angry you might have had time to properly read what I wrote and what I quoted.

15 hours ago, LSG501 said:

As we all know the enemies get harder the higher their level.  With a fixed value to the damage coming from the frame ability you hit a 'wall' which you can't get past when it comes to damage output. 

Most simple way of looking at it (obviously not realistic but it gives you the idea).  Now obviously it wouldn't be a straight up percentage, in the real world there would be some other calculations involved to allow a difficulty ramp but a percentage base would allow it to be a fair balance unlike what we have now.  Not to mention there are things like armour etc to consider.

Ability with mods has fixed damage of 100 to health

Enemy at level 1 has health of 10 - does 100 damage - 1 shot

Enemy at level 100 has health of 1000 - does 100 damage - 10 shots

Enemy at level 1000 has health of 10000. - does 100 damage - 100 shots

Change the damage to say 10% of health

Enemy at level 1 has health of 10 - does 1 damage - 10 shots

Enemy at level 100 has health of 1000 - does 100 damage - 10 shots

Enemy at level 1000 has health of 10000 - does 1000 damage - 10 shots

How would this solve anything? Maximum percentage based damage would be so overpower and so underpowered.

In low level content it would prolong the killing i.e 10sec for the dot to kill a lowbie mob instead of 1HK. Higher up, atleast versus bosses it would be beyond broken. "Derp derp, lets toss this dot on the boss and run around for 10 sec." Those are reasons why max hp percentage damage simply doesnt work and is never used in any game. They usually settle for a "percentage of remaining health", which isnt much better since suddenly skills cant really finish mobs on their own. It works on weapon procs etc. to have % of remaining HP damage, but not on continuous skills or weapons.

Both systems would be worse than flat damage, there is no arguing about that when you do the math.

You just seem to wanna do this in order for your spores to be able to spread in low levels. Nevermind they would do practically no damage anywhere, but hey, atleast you'd see their armor fully stripped even in level 5 content. Just play her as you did in 2.0 when it comes to low levels. It worked then, it works now, stop obsessing about corrosive or spore spread when you simply dont need it to be effective at certain levels. 

Why make mechanics even more complicated when they dont solve S#&$ in the end? Because that is what you wanna do.

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25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

As I said, they dont balance around low level content. So miasma spam by high levels is viable in low level content. They changed Saryn into what she is now because she was too passive prior to and after itteration one. Spamming isnt their issue if you need to be active about it. All frames with a damaging #1 and #4 does it, Saryn is no different.

Saryn works perfectly fine as she is since she can do both low and high level content just fine.

Also regarding your other post to me. My §4 was an answer to one of your previous hostile posts, it was not in relation to §3 in the same post. If you werent so upset and angry you might have had time to properly read what I wrote and what I quoted.

How would this solve anything? Maximum percentage based damage would be so overpower and so underpowered. 

In low level content it would prolong the killing i.e 10sec for the dot to kill a lowbie mob instead of 1HK. Higher up, atleast versus bosses it would be beyond broken. "Derp derp, lets toss this dot on the boss and run around for 10 sec." Those are reasons why max hp percentage damage simply doesnt work and is never used in any game. They usually settle for a "percentage of remaining health", which isnt much better since suddenly skills cant really finish mobs on their own. It works on weapon procs etc. to have % of remaining HP damage, but not on continuous skills or weapons. 

Both systems would be worse than flat damage, there is no arguing about that when you do the math.

You just seem to wanna do this in order for your spores to be able to spread in low levels. Nevermind they would do practically no damage anywhere, but hey, atleast you'd see their armor fully stripped even in level 5 content. Just play her as you did in 2.0 when it comes to low levels. It worked then, it works now, stop obsessing about corrosive or spore spread when you simply dont need it to be effective at certain levels. 

Why make mechanics even more complicated when they dont solve S#&$ in the end? Because that is what you wanna do.

Continues to try and say that fixed damage is a good thing for the game.... yeah if you say so...

I've already covered most of your 'argument' with the bit about extra calculations to cover for difficulty ramp up, low levels would be far easier to kill than high levels if done right.  Not to mention I just picked arbitrary figures to demonstrate a principle to the other person....

As to saying it's about me wanting spores to spread on low levels, actually no, on low levels there isn't even a need to use spores when you're a high level player, although there should be no reason not to... What I want is to remove fixed damage abilities and change them to scaling abilities so they work at ALL levels.  How hard is it for you to understand that a fixed damage has zero scaling for high level content.... 

Also it's anything but complicated because once you've worked out the code for scaling damage output it can basically be 'copy & pasted' to any other damage dealing ability, if anything it makes DE's work easier when dealing with damage abilities because it will never be overpowered or underpowered and require them to nerf or buff it constantly.   Actually thinking about DE likely already have some of the code they would need as it's basically how they scale enemy stats.

Oh and I'm supposedly being hostile.... yeah I think you're taking people disagreeing with you far too personally.  Other people will have different opinions which are just as valid, sometimes more so, than your own. 

Edited by LSG501

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27 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Continues to try and say that fixed damage is a good thing for the game.... yeah if you say so...

I've already covered most of your 'argument' with the bit about extra calculations to cover for difficulty ramp up, low levels would be far easier to kill than high levels if done right.  Not to mention I just picked arbitrary figures to demonstrate a principle to the other person....

As to saying it's about me wanting spores to spread on low levels, actually no, on low levels there isn't even a need to use spores when you're a high level player, although there should be no reason not to... What I want is to remove fixed damage abilities and change them to scaling abilities so they work at ALL levels.  How hard is it for you to understand that a fixed damage has zero scaling for high level content.... 

Also it's anything but complicated because once you've worked out the code for scaling damage output it can basically be 'copy & pasted' to any other damage dealing ability, if anything it makes DE's work easier when dealing with damage abilities because it will never be overpowered or underpowered and require them to nerf or buff it constantly.   Actually thinking about DE likely already have some of the code they would need as it's basically how they scale enemy stats.

Oh and I'm supposedly being hostile.... yeah I think you're taking people disagreeing with you far too personally.  Other people will have different opinions which are just as valid, sometimes more so, than your own. 

I never once called you hostile, please keep an eye on who I responded to where.

Percentage based damage will not work even if you want it to. As I said there is a reason it is never done in games outside of very specific skills or weapon procs. It simply doesnt end well with a system that uses it. Spore on their own had massive performance issues due to calculations under the 2.0 system, they solved that now. Those same problems would probably arise again with a scaling type of damage that you propose.

Right now her scaling works really well without making the skill OP versus bosses. Just as most other skills work perfectly well for the content we have. They hit hard enough in any possible content (unless you push endless which isnt and has never been a mark for balance). We are at the point where mods are enough to bring us the damage we need for our abilites on the frames that need it. I mean where exactly do you find content where our skills arent strong enough?

I'd also like a better explaination of exactly how % scaling would scale with other things such as armor and mods aswell as what other mechanics would translate into such a change. Would it also cover weapons, or just skills?

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59 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I never once called you hostile, please keep an eye on who I responded to where.

My bad, apologies

Quote

Percentage based damage will not work even if you want it to. As I said there is a reason it is never done in games outside of very specific skills or weapon procs. It simply doesnt end well with a system that uses it. Spore on their own had massive performance issues due to calculations under the 2.0 system, they solved that now. Those same problems would probably arise again with a scaling type of damage that you propose.

Yes it will... 

If the pc's can't cope with some fairly basic maths, that can be done on any scientific calculator, then DE really needs to up the minimum specs of pc's playing the game (they do anyway but that's another matter).  There is nothing complicated in working out percentages, especially if there is a limit to the number of enemies which are being used for a 'total damage' like on saryn spores.

Quote

Right now her scaling works really well without making the skill OP versus bosses. Just as most other skills work perfectly well for the content we have. They hit hard enough in any possible content (unless you push endless which isnt and has never been a mark for balance). We are at the point where mods are enough to bring us the damage we need for our abilites on the frames that need it. I mean where exactly do you find content where our skills arent strong enough?

Considering that DE has a habit of nerfing ability usage against bosses the skill being OP against them makes no real difference imo. 

Quote

I'd also like a better explaination of exactly how % scaling would scale with other things such as armor and mods aswell as what other mechanics would translate into such a change. Would it also cover weapons, or just skills?

Abilities only, weapons have enough issues with regard to balance....

As I said earlier, a scaling enemy stat would be used as the baseline for the damage calculation, in the case of saryn and her corrosive damage maybe armour should be used as it would fit the concept of 'stripping armour' that spores has now.  You then take a percentage of that, plus the additional bit of formula to allow a difficulty ramp up at high levels (keeps the challenge for those that like it).   Mods could be used to scale the damage output by a percentage or just be used to add a flat base damage on top of the scaled damage formula (which in a way would also act as a difficulty ramp).  The flat damage option would give you back your 'kill all the early stuff' you mentioned too.    

Now bear in mind I haven't said how much percentage would be used on purpose because DE is the one that sets the balance of abilities.  In the case of spores it would be pretty low if it was to maintain the increasing spore tick it has now and the calculation would be used to calculate the base tick which would then increase like it does now. 

 

The concept is basically how the secondary projectiles work on oberons smite (although it works off health and shields), so they already have something similar in game, where it takes a percentage PLUS a set value, this is what gives it the scaling and was pretty much universally approved of when it was added during it's rework.  Smite also works really well on ALL levels of enemies, not just up to a set enemy level like embers wof for example which has no scaling and is just a fixed value. 

Edited by LSG501

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9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

As I said, they dont balance around low level content. So miasma spam by high levels is viable in low level content. They changed Saryn into what she is now because she was too passive prior to and after itteration one. Spamming isnt their issue if you need to be active about it. All frames with a damaging #1 and #4 does it, Saryn is no different.

Saryn works perfectly fine as she is since she can do both low and high level content just fine.

Also regarding your other post to me. My §4 was an answer to one of your previous hostile posts, it was not in relation to §3 in the same post. If you werent so upset and angry you might have had time to properly read what I wrote and what I quoted.

 

you have your opinion and i have mine

we never going to agree so bye-bye

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12 hours ago, Raijin83 said:

you have your opinion and i have mine

we never going to agree so bye-bye

And that's how things should be. I just wanted to give some advice on what currently works well for her. Take it if you want, or dont. It's either or to me. I fully accept that it may not be the way you wanna play her, I'm just saying that this way is strong and works.

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Capping enemies helps fix the problem of cascading kills. Eliminating spread on death by spore itself helps fix the cascading kills and automation of spores that pacified players.

The problem still remains of spores killing themselves off, even though the decay is a good addition to help mitigate this. I still think that as i said before, escalating damage will not sit where you want it for long. Before, it was fully automated, cascading kills that killed itself off once map was wiped. Now, with the cascading effect removed, it kills itself off once you kill enemies in your spread range. This becomes an issue when the spore with its ever escalating damage kills the enemies before you can get to them. Even with the decay, it'll be harder to ramp up kills, because while the decay helps maintain the counter, once the counter dps surpasses the health of the enemy at a rate that would be possible for you to spread, you'll just be spamming over and over, waiting for the counter to go down just so you can get a decent ball rolling.

The one mechanic missing from saryn is the toxin spread. I understand there were issues with how it spread. I'll lay them out here.

Toxin would only spread after toxin proc was active. Toxin wouldn't spread to enemies with a toxin proc already on them. Carry was affected by the proc damage and number of ticks.

Can we simplify the formula and make it work for new saryn? Total damage of most recent toxin proc is carried by spores on pop.

(Net Damage by most recent toxin proc tick or highest proc tick)×(Percentage of carry) = carry damage on spore spread with 100% status chance.

It looks simple to me as a player, but i understand the difficulties as a programmer what this brings, but believe me, this is a very positive addition that can help immensely with saryn and how she plays for certain users.

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On 2018-06-04 at 7:39 AM, Airwolfen said:

What I see a lot actually is people wondering how to propperly stack up to 1000+ damage in low level missions but do not stop and think if they should stack up to 1000+.

Because at those levels you often only need to keep around 300 to stay effective and that is doable by bringing down spore damage by casting.

Pretty much allowed me to be top killer and top damage in most of my smaller runs including starchart level exterminate and such. Just keep casting spores like the old days.

This x1000!

The same people whine about Nidus having trouble building stacks at lower levels...when Nidus doesn't even need many stacks at such low levels. If you complain about Saryn lacking damage, you suck at setting her up and playing her. Simple as that. Her damage output rivals Octavia/Banshee now...easily. There are a ton of ways how to ramp up damage with her quickly, despite the decay and it scales well. 

People need think more about weapons/ability synergies and spend less time whining about not getting a simple "click one button, kill everything at OP damage for that level" mechanic. You get all the damage you need and more, but you have to work a tiny little bit and actually use your brain.

 

 

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6 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

This x1000!

The same people whine about Nidus having trouble building stacks at lower levels...when Nidus doesn't even need many stacks at such low levels. If you complain about Saryn lacking damage, you suck at setting her up and playing her. Simple as that. Her damage output rivals Octavia/Banshee now...easily. There are a ton of ways how to ramp up damage with her quickly, despite the decay and it scales well. 

People need think more about weapons/ability synergies and spend less time whining about not getting a simple "click one button, kill everything at OP damage for that level" mechanic. You get all the damage you need and more, but you have to work a tiny little bit and actually use your brain.

 

 

Are you guys reading the same posts? Ive been in this thread since it started its never been about damg

People want her synergy and utility at all levels like she use to. She is not a high level only frame anyone can have her even at low levels and will want to use her at low levels but now there is no point they wont have the mods to make her function correctly becuase shes now a insane damg dealer for some reason not like we have alot of those already and not like people dont already cry for those dps frames to be nerfed as well because it makes people mad when they can't kill anything and are stuck watching 1 frame at work

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4 minutes ago, MasaJin said:

Are you guys reading the same posts? Ive been in this thread since it started its never been about damg

People want her synergy and utility at all levels like she use to. She is not a high level only frame anyone can have her even at low levels and will want to use her at low levels but now there is no point they wont have the mods to make her function correctly becuase shes now a insane damg dealer for some reason not like we have alot of those already and not like people dont already cry for those dps frames to be nerfed as well because it makes people mad when they can't kill anything and are stuck watching 1 frame at work

At low levels you don't need any synergies, just like Nidus doesn't really need any. Or Equinox, just keep Maim up and run around. Spam Miasma with Saryn...done. If you want to play at low levels, build her for that just like you do when running higher level missions. You don't have to run the same setup for all levels. People should adapt a little, it doesn't take much. 

Edited by (PS4)Radehx

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

At low levels you don't need any synergies, just like Nidus doesn't really need any. Spam Miasma...done. If you want to play at low levels, build her for that just like you do when running higher level missions. You don't have to run the same setup for all levels. People should adapt a little, it doesn't take much. 

Newbies can't adapt they don't have the mods. Saryn now adapts to nothing shes has 1 or 2 good setups but they only function in a fun way if ur doing ESO or u want to sit in a survival till mobs can even survive the spore spread. She is not fun anywhere else like she use to be no one cares how fast she kills or how well she doesnt it besides the handful of people who like their new dps spam and call it "fun". I will take the weaker fun saryn any day over this because i had something to do other than grab a aoe weapon active lash and watch my number go up cus nothing will survive my active range of spores its boring at least nidus can use his whole kit with his stacks for cc survivability and damg his kit is way more thought out than saryn's

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4 minutes ago, MasaJin said:

Newbies can't adapt they don't have the mods. Saryn now adapts to nothing shes has 1 or 2 good setups but they only function in a fun way if ur doing ESO or u want to sit in a survival till mobs can even survive the spore spread. She is not fun anywhere else like she use to be no one cares how fast she kills or how well she doesnt it besides the handful of people who like their new dps spam and call it "fun". I will take the weaker fun saryn any day over this because i had something to do other than grab a aoe weapon active lash and watch my number go up cus nothing will survive my active range of spores its boring at least nidus can use his whole kit with his stacks for cc survivability and damg his kit is way more thought out than saryn's

Or instead of not adapting at lower levels by running Miasma, you could challenge yourself with higher levels where the other setup works perfectly. Adapt the build to the situation.

The “new players are lacking mods” argument is obviously bad because the same goes for all frames. 

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34 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Or instead of not adapting at lower levels by running Miasma, you could challenge yourself with higher levels where the other setup works perfectly. Adapt the build to the situation.

The “new players are lacking mods” argument is obviously bad because the same goes for all frames. 

You could say that about all cheese builds but no one does that because we are given the freedom to mod and change a ability all together

The moding thing is a great argument because not every frame will need mods arcanes tenno powers just to function in a correct way alot of replies are 

"Adapt"

"Mod differently"

"Tennos and arcanes"

Why can't it all be playable the way we want like other frames 

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2 minutes ago, MasaJin said:

You could say that about all cheese builds but no one does that because we are given the freedom to mod and change a ability all together

The moding thing is a great argument because not every frame will need mods arcanes tenno powers just to function in a correct way alot of replies are 

"Adapt"

"Mod differently"

"Tennos and arcanes"

Why can't it all be playable the way we want like other frames 

Saryn needs exactly 1 single mod that isn’t standard for pretty much every frame. And you don’t need arcanes to make her work.

She is (better that just) playable, you simply have to adapt your build to the mission and level. This goes for most frames. 

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Saryn needs exactly 1 single mod that isn’t standard for pretty much every frame. And you don’t need arcanes to make her work.

She is (better that just) playable, you simply have to adapt your build to the mission and level. This goes for most frames. 

All my frames have 1 loadout to how i want to play them and i can play them in any game mode cus i made them balanced. Saryn on the other hand is about as balanced as fish with a missing flipper and as i said before u havent been reading this thread cus that is what people are throwing out for builds to balance her now crappy efficiency

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