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[DE]Danielle

[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

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And more changes have arrived in PC Hotfix 22.20.7 (with an added Miasma changes bonus)!

Spores

  • Drain occurs once per half second instead of continuous.
  • Targets you cast Spores on directly will always spread on death.
  • Targets affected by Miasma will always spread on death.
  • Spores won't be removed by enemies going temporarily invulnerable because of void tears corrupting them.
  • Tone down Spore decaying blinking warning
  • Fixed Saryn’s Spore damage being removed when casting Spores on a target that is being simultaneously killed by a teammate. 
  • Fixed Saryn’s Spore damage decay drain discrepancies when entering a Nullifier bubble. Damage was decaying slower the second time entering a Nullifier bubble.
  • Fixed Saryn's Spores and Contagion cloud not using custom Energy colors on cast/burst.
     

Miasma

  • Increased sickness Duration by 1 second. 
  • Lowered Energy cost to 75. 
  • Decreased damage tick to 300.

Thank you all for your thorough testing and constructive feedback.


The bulbous pockets of corrosive popping goodness have been through the devs’ workshop and are here with some new changes! After you've had a chance to thoroughly test all of the changes to Spores below, we'd love to hear what you think! 

As always, please keep your feedback constructive and provide videos/images where possible.

  • Spores can be re-cast while active and will no longer detonate all active Spores. 
    • Recasting on enemies will put new Spores on a target with a 20% decrease to its damage per second (scales with Ability Strength) for 50% of the Energy cost. 
  • Fixed inconsistent spreading ranges with Spores when killing an infected enemy by establishing a new base range of 16m across all spreading conditions. 
  • Removed spread on enemies that die to a Spore’s tick damage. 
  • Spores’ damage growth over time per Spore is now determined per enemy infected. And with it, a max limit of 10 infected enemies to maintain a max damage growth limit over time. To better explain this change and how it all breaks down, let’s compare:
    • Was: Damage growth is determined per Spore, so 1 damage per Spore every second. For example, let’s say there are 5 enemies. You cast Spores on one of the enemies in that group. 3 Spores are now active on that enemy. Damaging that enemy with Toxic Lash disperses a single Spore to the surrounding 4 enemies for a grand total of 7 Spores (4 enemies with a single Spore + the 3 original Spores on cast). This maintains a damage growth of 7 damage every second. 
    • Now: Damage growth is determined per enemy infected, so 2 damage (can be modded with Ability Strength) per enemy infected by Spores every second up to a maximum of 10 enemies*. So, using that same example, 5 infected enemies would set the damage growth to 10 damage every second (Modded damage growth of x * # of enemies infected up to 10). Reaching 10 infected enemies would set the maximum damage growth at 20 every second.
      • *The number of infected enemies is uncapped! You can infect more than 10 enemies, but the damage growth is dependent on that max. 
  • Damage per second will now “decay” (decrease over time) when no infected enemies remain. 
    • The damage per second you’ve accumulated will first instantly drop by 20%, which will then commence the decay of the remaining damage by 10% per second (scales with Duration mods).
    • Decaying can be observed in the damage per second meter located above Saryn’s ability icons. 
    • Nullifying effects (including Data-Conduits) increases the decay by 30% per second.

Curious about the details on how and why? Check out the Spores Revisited dev workshop!

Known issues: 

  • Casting Spores on a target that is getting killed by a teammate removes all Spore damage. 

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I really dislike how Spores don't spread on death anymore. Now I can barely keep 10 enemies infected at a time. With the revert to Spores being re-castable I strongly believe she needs to have some sort of energy refund mechanic. Since enemies don;t spread Spores anymore when they die, she should get energy returned on enemy death. Babysitting the Spores is already stressful enough. Not to mention the rate at which Spores decay. Was this even playtested?

I also wouldn't mind seeing a nice visual Spore cloud FX being utilized, have each burst spore erupt into a visual cloud. Heck, have enemies that die from Spores leave a cloud of spores that stays for a duration, infecting enemies that walk through it or even too close to it get infected.

Spore's description also states you can spread them by killing the host. At least change the description so we aren't reminded of how fun Saryn used to be.

 

Honestly I will never like Saryn being a caster. She has always been my favorite frame since it was always fun to jump into a group with Contagion (Now Toxic Lash) activated and chip enemy armor down, having to focus on the strongest enemy on the field. This change to Spores brings her further back to the "spam and stand there" playstyle which honestly isn't engaging at all in the slightest. She doesn't seem to hold up well in Solo play much either which is my primary way to play.

I really hope Saryn gets better in the future. She has always been my main and it breaks my heart to see her resort to being a very boring caster frame. Sorry.

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Honestly, I expected everything except for that spread on death removal. And I don't think that removing entire spread is a good idea, it's really painfull.I completely agree that having every kill via spores tick spread it around, was too strong. Still I think it would have been better to make it so some % of spores still spread when tick kills enemy instead of removing it entirely. That dmg growth/s is great idea though. It was something crazy when you were able to reach 1k+ dmg/spore in few seconds. Well, it's just my (probably) biased opinion, just after reading patchnotes, so it's time to hop in and see how Saryn works now.

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After testing the new change for saryn i came to a conclusion that in my opinion the decay rate is too high. You loose your stacks in seconds when you cant find enemies. And im not sure about the decay rate only being changeable with duration. 

Im constantly having issues keeping my spores alive without loosing all my stacks. Now that they dont spread by themselves anymore you have to babysit the affected enemies even more than before. And guess what, if you cant find that last enemy with your spores and he dies, your stacks start decaying super fast and you have to run up to an enemy again to cast the spores very fast. This change basically made saryn a caster frame. 

You could make the enemies that are affected by the spores visible through walls so that the player can spot them easier to spread the spores. Everyone is looking for the corrosive damage ticks  anyway, to see where an affected enemy is. 

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Decay rate is way too fast even when modded.

so basicly she's hitting enemies with lash in her line of sight and spreading to same enemies in the spore spread range and when those go down you have no enemies in the vacinity and the ones in the initial spread range can't spread on death anymore to the next 16m around them.

Saryn is basicly creating a slow stacking DOT in a 16m*Range AOE

I was hoping it would be at least decent to make her not lose her stacks on a defence.

An easy solution would be making the decay rate a fixed amount and not a %. That way I can't Afk and I have enough time to recast to not reset all my damage.

 

Edit: After playing with it a bit, that decay is the most useless gimmick ever on Onslaught too, by the time you go through the portal and find an enemy you already lost all the damage.

Pablo considers it a "buff": " Well, it went from lose 100%, down to 20% + 10% per second. It's a pretty big buff. I am gonna try seeing how I feel about the initial 20% scaling with power strength too", but I'm starting to feel like it was just there to justify the nerf and make the pile easier to swallow when in reality it doesn't change much.

 

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Was is really necessary to make the decaying warning blink bright red?
I can see the numbers are going down. Without the red flashlight.

And while I can understand the change to the damage tick up (because let's face it, that was somewhat ridiculous),
it's kind of a kick in the nuts that you took out spread on spore ticks completely.
Even keeping that at a low percentage (idk, 25%?) would've been better than just scrapping it.

Because right now, Saryn feels less like she's spreading disease, and more like she's a janitor, here to sweep up some nasty
looking enemies.

Overall maybe a B- for effort?

Edit because reading other posts reminded me: The decay rate is ridiculous. I know I don't run very high duration on my Saryn,
but losing over 50% of my built up tick damage in seconds feels really S#&$ty. Adjusting to a C+.

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GG nice nerf.

Nerfed damage growth (its ok  too me, becouse was way to op).
The best part of nerf is Spores don't spread on death, i do like she exactly for that , now she just caster.

All the way damage decay is good invention.

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I had only 1 round of ESO, but the changes look good to me. We were 3 Saryn, so there still are the problems of of taking away the spore-spots.

The decaying looks okay,maybe a bit to fast, I like that it is mod dependant.

Damage ramp-up is okay and definitely not broken like before in ESO.

One Question that came up to me : Do my skills affect the spores of another saryn ? Can I pop their spores with my toxic lash and do I get Bonus damage for Miasma, when an enemy has not my spores ?

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What I'm finding is that we're obsessed with these big numbers. Saryn has a scaling damage ability, so we want to see that boosted all the way out. Saryn's spores no longer spreading passively isn't that big of a change now that we can re-cast it. The only reason that we can't keep our spores spreading at that point is because... everything is dead... Doesn't that mean that saryn has done her job?

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@[DE]Pablo

mmmm better as per spreading spores since the recast option is good to have back but i gotta be honest, the old spores with viral+toxin dots carried over and over is something no rework will ever match, they were simply perfect.

Miasma for spreading viral status being an ultimate ability with all the consequent energy costs,compared to the utility of the old spores isn't worth the energy/result.

The only thing miasma needed was a way to scale up in dmg based on enemies % health, and / OR armor removal on each tick , something like Oberon Recknoning that with enough strenght can strip 100% armor in 2 casts.

The switch in dmg types and status between spores and miasma still leaves me perplexed, when CP's exist or Viral/Heat - Viral/Rad ignis to have overall a way better viral fest going around at zero energy cost and i find really hylarious that to have saryn fullfill her debuffer role which she was famous for thanks to the map wide mass viral statuses (and toxins dots ) we have to use an ultimate ability and quite often ( without the toxin dots spread i might add ) or use certain weapons to maximize the missing viral effect from spores or the pretty much redundant , cost inefficient of miasma

Old spores were still smoother ( gameplay wise ) and offered a more all rounded utility, nonetheless if we're stuck with this new rework i guess we'll have to digest it and those who can't, will lose interest in another frame...( a Glorious one by the way )

EDIT :

Personally i had more fun with Saryn 2.0 and despite reaching with relatively ease Zone 10 solo over and over after  a couple of hours of testing i still prefer and miss the old spores with their viral thing and toxin procs spread.

(not because of the molt turret which i found extremely pathetic and boring ) but ehhh it is what it is.

A much less time consuming rework would have been :

1) spores stayed the same

2) Molt & Toxic lash changes like you did

3) Armor stripping capabilities to Miasma and eventually some tweaking about it's dmg

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So my biggest issue is now to actualy spread the spores. Once you get some dmg on it and you try to recast it on new enemy it simply kill him and you will not get the chance to pop the spores. This leads to casting spores too manny times and its totaly not energy efficient. My soulution:

  • Let us pop the spores with weapons 1-3 sec after the target dies. Decay will start at target death like it is now. 
  • OR start the Spore dmg ticks after 1 sec (basicly give us time to pop it)
  • OR  some kind of energy refund

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I would rather have even less damage than to not being able to spread spores through the ticks.

Maybe try out how things will be without the removal? Right now I don´t think it would be too powerful.

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I may be in the minority but I absolutely love the change. If people hate the decay they need to simply cast more. It feels much closer to the right place than before and I find Saryn a lot more usable in both low and high-level content. Well done.

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Testing was ok, however ONE THING is really annoying: When I try to keep my spore counter up and recast a spore on an enemy but it dies before I can pop it. I am not happy about enemies dying from spores not spreading them, but to not make saryn frustrating to play (and consume energy excessively for wasted spores) I suggest this:

When an enemy dies that received spores from a direct cast, it spreads spores on death, even if dying from spore damage.

Generally the changes cause a stressful gameplay as I am very consumed by looking at my spore counter. I am desperately looking around for enemies on which I can refresh my spores and then I am stressed by trying to pop the spores before the enemy dies.

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She now uses overwhelming amounts of energy, the damage builds VERY slowly even with 139 strength, and the drain is EXTREMELY fast, even with 155 duration. It takes an entire round to build up 2000 damage and it drains to 200 damage during the bare few seconds of a data conduit.

Power strength barely affects the damage growth. The drain is so fast that duration doesn't even matter. Having to manually spread the spores takes literally all of your time.

 

Either drastically increase the damage growth speed, or drastically decrease the damage drain speed, and make spores spread when they kill a target.

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Suggestion for spore spreading on enemies dying from spores:

Each time an enemy dies from a spore, the spread radius of that spore population is halved to a minimum of 2.5m (affected by range mods)
This allows limited passive spreading AND solves the recast issue (enemy dies before spores pop). I am not sure whether it is technically possible to track every single spore and count its spreading iterations though.
Also, it should then be possible that spores with lower iterations overwrite those with higher iterations. The reduced-radius-spores need to have lower priority.

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Still really think spore damage should increase on a spore infesting a target, outside the capped passive tick increase.  Spore damage should go up more from our popping them than just from passive spore ticking.  That was the whole point of what you were doing, but you made it more passive by taking out our contribution in spreading spores around.

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2 minutes ago, Mornox said:

Suggestion for spore spreading on enemies dying from spores:

Each time an enemy dies from a spore, the spread radius of that spore population is halved to a minimum of 2.5m (affected by range mods)
This allows limited passive spreading AND solves the recast issue (enemy dies before spores pop). I am not sure whether it is technically possible to track every single spore and count its spreading iterations though.

This wont work.

1. you need to set the time until it resets to full range sread

2. after reaching min spread you are A, at the same problem we have now, B, with range mods you are when we was before.

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Mover-NeRo:

This wont work.

1. you need to set the time until it resets to full range sread

2. after reaching min spread you are A, at the same problem we have now, B, with range mods you are when we was before.

Not sure I understood that right. The idea was, that passive spore spreading decays in range (and maybe damage) while active spore spreading uses full range. Fresh spores should then be able to overwrite decayed spores so that active spreading is not impaired. That minimum threshold is debatable and should be subject to testing though.

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The workshop stated recasting spores would screw our damage if done on an infested target.  The changes here, and what you actually did, was to penalize any re-cast.

Not that our feedback mattered, obviously, but that would have been nice to have told us.

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1 minute ago, Mornox said:

Not sure I understood that right. The idea was, that passive spore spreading decays in range (and maybe damage) while active spore spreading uses full range. Fresh spores should then be able to overwrite decayed spores so that active spreading is not impaired. That minimum threshold is debatable and should be subject to testing though.

I see. Well first i thought it would be hard to implement diferent spore colonies...vut smt like this already exist in Banshee Sonar augment... so ye it actualy might work with some tweeks..

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After running 8 zones solo in Elite Onslaught, I don't really feel a difference. Maybe that is because I am not a camper.

There might be an inconsistency of the decay as sometimes I noticed having spore damage 2200+  dropped to 600+ as soon as decay started, which is not getting through a conduit or nullifier.

I must say the audio cue for the decay activation is a good move. I'm glad you guys now know that audio cue is very important QoL.

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb kyori:

I must say the audio cue for the decay activation is a good move. 

True, however I'd prefer to have a different sound than the spore cast to make it clearer, in the heat of the battle I was a bit confused at times whether I just casted (accidently or due to lag/delay) or the decay was indicated, so I still needed to look at the counter every time. That might be more of an issue for people with bad Internet connection as lag and delay brings some unexpected uncertainty to many gameplay elements.

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People are forgetting that enemies who die to miasma spread spores at full range

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Since we need to recast spores quickly it would be nice if we had a specific sound for when they fall off, as well as a visual on screen like the spore counter exploding with a small particle effect. 

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