[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[Shonaney]

Im wrong or did the decay rate cap at 5%? (Around 180% duration?)

I like the way it works now, but like said before the decay rate is way to high, or may do it like beam weapons or ember ult, start the decay after some seconds without a spore or ramp it up over 5 seconds from 0 to the decay rate.

Ofc at low stuff it's may to much to store high dmg values but these values will drop cause every enemy cast on dies instant. (But i like the idea of spread the spores to half the range if the enemy it's casted at dies.

[Jalhar]

I tested her a bit in Elite Onslaught Solo with max range builds, one with 200%+ strength / 155% duration and no survivability, the other more balanced with 128% duration / 130ish% strength. Primary weapon was Gas Ignis Wraith with firestorm & sinister reach. Zenurik / Arcane Guardian / Arcane Grace used.

• Spores can be re-cast while active and will no longer detonate all active Spores.

Good change, definitely needed though especially considering the nerfs below

• Fixed inconsistent spreading ranges with Spores when killing an infected enemy by establishing a new base range of 16m across all spreading conditions.

Good change, spreading spore was the only thing that felt right. It didn't feel that different from before the fix though, toxic lash + ignis wraith is a sure way to spore the whole map, whatever happens. It may prove to be beneficial to other types of weapon.

• Removed spread on enemies that die to a Spore’s tick damage. 

Terrible. Often you end up with very few ennemies alive, no-one in range to spore and one last spored enemy dying of it on the other side of the map and not spreading it => decay starts to happen and you lose half / all of your hard fought stacks in a matter of seconds.

• Spores’ damage growth over time per Spore is now determined per enemy infected (blablabla)

Don't try to sugar coat it, it's a huge nerf to the damage growth 🙂 I could reach 5 / 6k in 1 ESO wave, now I barely reach 2k when everything goes perfectly - ie rarely - only to have it decay basically to 0 in a conduit or due to random decay in the middle of the wave. I would be fine with it if keeping spores on enemies was easier - see above - or if decay was (a lot) less harsh.

• Damage per second will now “decay” (decrease over time) when no infected enemies remains. 

Very nice mechanic, I think it fits Saryn & spores perfectly.

As explained above, there is a LOT of tuning to do though: right now even in perfect ESO conditions Saryn feels underwhelming compared to 22.20.0 version. I can't imagine how bad it would be in normal missions. The combination of low damage growth + fast decay makes it extremely hard to reach good spore damage, let alone keeping it. I'd have been fine with point 1 & 5 only to be honest. I'd revert point 2 (spread on enemies that die to spore damage) and adjust either damage growth, or decay: if decay is harsh then growth needs to be fast, if growth is slow then decay should be as well.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Jalhar

[Chroia]

CRAP.
This was not supposed to be posted yet, I'm still typing.
Please hide/ignore for now.

Okay, think that was everything.

 

Disclaimer:
Was not using Zenurik's dash. That's basically the only way to run a fair test.

Same loadout as before. (Ignis W, Rad status Zakti, Kesheg)
Ran 1 SO with a different build, as I'd hoped that the better duration'd counter the lower range, netting me better status chance in the proccess. No dice.
Reverted to my [url=https://i.imgur.com/ukTlRx2.jpg]initial max range build[/url] and ran 1 Kuva Surv.

Distinguishing between Toxin DoTs and Spores DoTs is even more crucial now, but no easier. Which contributes to:

Spores is extremely unreliable now.
I'll think I'm laying into a Spored crowd, and discover the Decaying! indicator.

So my ranged Saryn's play devolved to perma ADS -> find enemy -> tap 1 -> tap LMB -> Repeat.
This is both very concentration intensive, highly restrictive of your mobility, awareness, and subsequently survivability.

In my Kuva Surv run, I literally spent more time staring at the minimap trying to find an enemy to Spore than anything else.
Noped out at ~12 minutes, once I hit 50% air at the 10 min mark and discovered that the surv progressed better once I stopped using Spores and just stuck with my Toxic Lash-ed Ignis Wraith.

Spores stacks sat between 80 and 200, when they didn't bottom out entirely.
On the bright side, rarely ran out of energy.

In my normal SO run, with 2 maxed Energize, I literally ran out of energy every other wave.
As well as using up 6 revives, between less damage avoided via dodging and less agro avoided/damage healed from not having energy to use Molt basically ever.

I only managed to pass 600 damage stacked once (more on that later), and never managed to start a round with more than 200 stacked damage. Holy crap, that decay is high.

"Amusingly", best results I found were the last round when I literally said 'fk it' and Spores -> TL -> spin to win with a max-range-rivened (4/5) polearm the entire round.
Broke 1k stacked damage, sat constantly as max eff for possibly the first time, least damage absorbed.

 

Current verdict:
Spores can kill stuff.
Using it in that manner is high maintenance, stressful due to the high penalty for letting the ball drop (assuming you had an option to begin with, as you're limited by spawns and pathing), and less effective than simply using Toxic Lash and spraying AoE everywhere with either an Ignis Wraith or a Kesheg.

As I see it, either:
* Spores doesn't kill fast enough where it is, or
* you lose the built up stacks too fast, or
* the payoff to effort invested ratio is highly skewed and the game doesn't do anything to make your life easier in any way.

I'd get better results ignoring Spores, or just taking a different frame and calling it a day.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Chroia

[JYStanley]

Tested in both mercury and Eris survival on infestation, both show very different output. At Mercury, the spores are actually killing faster than me although I can one shot all of them. While in Eris, the spores does show a growth but in the end, i still need to recast it way to much. I do notice that i need to cast more in Mercury than Eris which make it not suitable to low level enemies???

In my opinion, if the spores can damage enemies but not kill them will be a good solution casting efficiency and decaying rate. With this, the spores will be more like a support rather than \ killing all the enemies around and the spores will be more controlled.

I do like the decaying rate though.

edit: Once I tried it on New Loke ancient chasing me, while I am killing them easily, i do notice that my spores does not spread, which make it very unreliable.

Edited May 24, 2018 by JYStanley

[Rylux]

Il y a 6 heures, [DE]Danielle a dit :

Removed spread on enemies that die to a Spore’s tick damage.

This is the biggest issue for me with that update:

if I undestand correctly, now the only way to spread spores, is to hit an ennemy with Toxic Lash Activated, meaning that you have to keep it activated 24h/24h.

It also means that your teamates have absolutly no way to work with this mechanic, except letting you attack infected ennmies. But everyone who plays a range build knows that this is never going to happen.

I undestand why this was removed, and that it would be way too OP to put back as is, but I think this really brings discourages people from playing Srayn in a group.

So some ideas I can submit are:

-Keep spreading on death, but with a reduced radius

-Only have a probability of spreading on death.

-Loosing some damage when spore spreads on death.

-Or a combination of all the above...

Oh and aslo please change Toxic Lash to a Toggle instead of having to refresh it every X seconds.

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Rylux

[leleupaterno]

2 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

People are forgetting that enemies who die to miasma spread spores at full range

That's a good solution for our energy being consumed to fast... 

The damage reduction btw is totaly fine, but that's it. 
Decay is obviously too fast for a skill that just had potency loss, recast consumes way to much energy+damage, and the whole idea of ticks not spreading spores is just a triple minus to one plus...

the skill should be leaved like it was on saryn 3.0, but with a lower damage growth (it was exponentialy too fast)

[TyrianMollusk]

9 minutes ago, Rylux said:

if I undestand correctly, now the only way to spread spores, is to hit an ennemy with Toxic Lash Activated, meaning that you have to keep it activated 24h/24h.

No, you can spread spores by a lash hit, by shooting the spore, or by killing the spored enemy.  Spores only don't spread by the spore itself getting the kill.

So, you and your squad are competing against your spores for the kill, but any of you can definitely spread spores.

Edited May 24, 2018 by TyrianMollusk

[Cibyllae]

7 minutes ago, Rylux said:

if I undestand correctly, now the only way to spread spores, is to hit an ennemy with Toxic Lash Activated, meaning that you have to keep it activated 24h/24h. 

they spread for max range if an infected enemy dies from any other damage source other than spores

[SuperUnknown94]

After more testing I have to agree, not spreading on enemy death needs to be changed. If your goal is unlimited, then this needs to be part of Saryn's spores.

[vivivis]

 

I never used to use Saryn before this past update. Honestly I think she's really good the way she is right now. (not Including the little bugs) there are just so many other warframes that are just better at killing than Saryn and now you have finally gave me a reason to use her. Now you're going to take that one unique thing that Saryn does compared to all the other warframes away. Sure Octavia is kind of like that but unlike Soren she can't “directly” make enemies take damage. with Saryn we now have control over that which is really fun. to see everything just melt away and all the numbers all around your screen killing enemies is just really satisfying to watch also if people don't like that play style then they can just not use Spore or Saryn.

 

What I think you should do with Spore

A. don't limit the damage/its perfected the way it is.

 

B. keep the spread on death.

 

C. keep the range how it is/don't cap it.

[retrosolid]

1000% better.  I love how spores function now.  I actually prefer the spores not spreading on death, it enforces an active playstyle rather than just casting once and letting the spores do all the work.

Edited May 24, 2018 by retrosolid

[Zandre]

So I gave it a shot and it's strange. Not really a fan. However I understand there was a need to nerf it. On certain mission she was solo carrying but considering she has a small range of uses (survival and onslaught) she's mostly useless on other game mods like exterminate and capture.

Either way, I think that a slightly slower decay rate, put the spread on death back in, eliminate the 20% damage build up loss when no enemies are infected, and/or remove the 20% loss in damage on spore recast.

I think the nerfs are acceptable and I am happy that she kept her spore infinite duration but overall the nerfs are a bit much because it becomes frustrating to use at times. Plus, I've noticed some bugs. Sometimes I'll have enemies infected and it will decay anyways and I can lose 20%+ of my build up before saying 26 enemies infected or something. 

If I misunderstood the spore damage ramp loss when you recast, please explain because that imo is the biggest issue next to spread on death.

Edit: I misread the first part, removed that from my argument.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Zandre

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Following the 20.20.5 changes to Spores. Its ability description should be changed to reflect that Spores no longer spread if an infected enemy dies to Spores.

My bad, I misread that. It seems it's already accurate.

Done a bit of testing with it and so far it feels about the same. Having to baby your Spores around isn't that bad of a thing, in my opinion. It's better than a set-and-forget play style. I don't play with much Strength on her and I'm mainly range, highest damage I saw for Spores was around 2K and that was before these changes. Lucky if I got above 1K at all in a few test sessions in ESO. Again, not saying it's a bad thing, but the damage buildup is far slower now.

Edited May 24, 2018 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Zandre]

7 minutes ago, retrosolid said:

1000% better.  I love how spores function now.  I actually prefer the spores not spreading on death, it enforces an active playstyle rather than just casting spore once or twice and letting the spores do all the work.

but you lose 20% of the damage spread on recast so you're punished for keeping your damage built up. And it seems like the recast nerf stacks (needs testing). Not spreading on death forces recasting which forces loss of damage. 

[Cibyllae]

2 minutes ago, Zandre said:

but you lose 20% of the damage spread on recast so you're punished for keeping your damage built up

only if its on an infected enemy

[LSG501]

First impressions of the rework... while I like the idea of a decay on spore the decay is far too aggressive even with focusing on duration.

Also had numerous occasions where the spore count just disappeared for no obvious reason, didn't hit zero, still enemies around, it just disappeared. 

Would also like spores killing enemies to spread bringing back, on low level enemies we don't even have enough time to kill an enemy to spread the spores. 

 

edit: seems certain frame abilities (like volt's discharge) can wipe out any spores we have on enemies....

Edited May 24, 2018 by LSG501

[TyrianMollusk]

9 minutes ago, Zandre said:

So here's how I understand it:
-On recast, spore ramps up 20% slower

No, on recast you get an instant 20% loss.

 

1 minute ago, Cibyllae said:

only if its on an infected enemy

That was how they described it in the workshop but not what they were actually doing.

Edited May 24, 2018 by TyrianMollusk

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Biggest issues on my part:

• Miasma no longer spreads Spores.
• Toxic Lash DoT does not spread Spores on death
• Toxic Lash Augment does not spread Spores with Cloud DoT or direct damage kill.
• Enemies killed by Slash/Fire/Toxin procs do not spread Spores
• Using a weapon with high Fire Rate has inconsistency with spreading Spores w/o Toxic Lash. You are forced to use slow, high-damage weapons.
• Molt still does not pull aggro.

Over all, I feel the above problems have made her worse than she was before her re-make. Now she has to have LoS with enemies in order to spread Spores, which does not work with her low survivability. She would need more tank-like stats (higher base health, slightly higher armor, and better aggro pull on Molt) in order to work as she is now. I mostly find myself just not using Spore and just using Augmented Toxic Lash and Miasma to kill enemies. Spores are too high-maintenance to be worth the trouble.

-1, Bad Rework.

[Zandre]

2 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

No, on recast you get an instant 20% loss.

Ok I did misunderstand after re-reading it makes sense. Still tho, that's a lot of damage build up lost very fast. 

3 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

only if its on an infected enemy

Spores can be re-cast while active and will no longer detonate all active Spores. 

• Recasting on enemies will put new Spores on a target with a 20% decrease to its damage per second (scales with Ability Strength) for 50% of the Energy cost. 

Says nothing about enemy being infected or not

Edited May 24, 2018 by Zandre

[ILikeFlamethrowers]

After playing her a few times in onslaught I noticed that my infected counter is significatly lower than yesterday where I averaged 20-50 infected at one time depending on the enemy type. I am really fine with all the changes except the not spreading on death. I get that the idea was to replace that with a decay for us to recast it at somewhat the same damage. All of Saryns abilities feel good to use except the part where spores feels like to much of an energy sink for a 1 ability.

[leirynot]

Tested her with the changes and no spread on death from spore ticks is awful. It makes it nearly impossible to maintain your spores once the damage gets remotely high. The decay seems bugged, since I've had my damage go from 500 to 0 instantly after my last spored target dies. When it does work it still decays way too fast and is impossible to maintain damage between defense waves, especially on maps like Hydron where they have the platform that moves up and down putting about a 15 second delay between waves. Bring Spores back to spreading at half range when enemies die from them and it should feel alright.

[(PSN)WeeMalk5]

Decay feels to me like a mini version of the onslaught efficiency battle. Its feelling a bit more complicated and less fun to me so far.

[Stranger_secret]

I really didnt play saryn till this rework and i like the spread fast to a lot and rise in damage over time. And the range as it is great. I just have a problem of energy. And for the people who are testing do it other places besides ESO, like ODS ( survival)

Edited May 24, 2018 by Strangerthefirst
more info

[retrosolid]

14 minutes ago, Zandre said:

but you lose 20% of the damage spread on recast so you're punished for keeping your damage built up. And it seems like the recast nerf stacks (needs testing). Not spreading on death forces recasting which forces loss of damage. 

Its not a punishment, its a cost to keep your damage ramping up.  I had no issue keeping around 2k spore damage in the ESO runs I just ran.  It might take some getting used to but its a necessary limiting factor on the infinite scaling and in practice it works out pretty well.

[Cibyllae]

19 minutes ago, Zandre said:

Ok I did misunderstand after re-reading it makes sense. Still tho, that's a lot of damage build up lost very fast. 

Spores can be re-cast while active and will no longer detonate all active Spores. 

• Recasting on enemies will put new Spores on a target with a 20% decrease to its damage per second (scales with Ability Strength) for 50% of the Energy cost. 

Says nothing about enemy being infected or not

 

On 2018-05-23 at 2:26 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

So let’s get into it! Here’s what we’re looking at changing with Spores.

• Can be re-cast while active and will no longer detonate all active Spores:
   
  • Based on feedback, detonating on recast felt like an unnatural transition from Saryn’s original makeup. So in an effort to maintain her roots, we’ve removed the detonate mechanic on recast so that Spores can be cast onto multiple targets.
    
    With this came the need to find a space where Spores’ escalating damage and its reinstated recast “sans detonation” can live harmoniously together. That said, recasting on infected enemies will put new Spores on a target with a 20% decrease to its damage per enemy (scales with Power Strength) for 50% of the Energy cost.

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Cibyllae