[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[n3rvz]

Regenerative Molt should be part of the kit by default and not require mod slot and contagion clouds dmg is pointless it should scale with spores dmg or have much larger clouds or something it's a completely pointless mod.

The active play from spores right now is great but Saryn is now energy hungry again and mobs often die too fast to recast spores on them which is annoying.

I would think a reduction on cast speed of spores would be helpful and adding the energy gain back to the kit. Miasma doesn't feel like a useful ability right now.

Edited May 27, 2018 by n3rvz

[battlehotdog]

so there is this issue. when you stack your spores too high up and they kill everything and you try to cast it on an enemy they instatnly die. so if your spores are too strong, you can not spread them and have to wait until the stacks deplete to a level that doesnt kill the enemy instantly.

my suggestion would be to let the first spores you cast explode on death of the enemy (full range?). that way it doesnt fell so clunky.

[Vindveil]

The new re-work is great, and I'm really happy that Saryn is viable at high-levels. Here's my feedback:

• Spore Spread:  Spores NOT being spread on a tick death, was a major fun-killer for me. The game usually doesn't throw enemies at you in a continuous stream. It spawns a wave of enemies after the previous was killed. So naturally, spores weren't exactly a "fire and forget" mechanic before. I really loved the spreading mechanics of the previous version, and thought it was really fun, although I couldn't go high levels with it. Spores was kind of a micromanagement game earlier too, and I liked it that way.
  
  The downside to having spores spread on death, is that the damage growth can easily reach very high numbers, making Saryn really overpowered. So maybe why not make the damage growth rate inversely proportional to time, and directly proportional to the number of enemies infected? So that the damage grows really fast when first engaging enemies, and the damage rate decreases as players get more comfortable with the situation. I think this is a step in the right direction to limit the tick damage from going too overpowered.
• Damage Counter: It's kinda hard to keep looking at the counter near the corner, maybe have some kind of visual effects to have a rough idea about how much enemies are infected, and how good is the damage.
• Miasma: Please bring back the old sound effect lol. The new one sounds weaker.

[Morthal]

Still rolling with the punches here, even with those furious swings of the nerf bat, for now I can fall back on spin2win and spamming Miasma 😄 
Keep bringing the nerf though, I can do this all day!

[Tarak]

I strongly feel that enemies under the affect of a warframe power when they die should spread spores (such as Saryn's own 4, which tends to reduce enemy health to a point that the spores fast tick-rate kills the enemy and spreads nothing), Energy refund should be returned with the return of the recast-able 1, and the initial enemy spores is cast on should always spread spores on death (since I frequently see enemies just instantly die when I cast on them and essentially waste the cast because I can't spread the spores).

[Zed1419]

Does the accumulate damage decays while falling into a pit is a feature or just a glitch because it didnt say anything about falling into the pit damage decays except about damage decays when in conduit/nullifier.

[Shield00]

The current issues spore still has is that, the true strength of the ability will not come unto itself until enemy levels have far exceeded star chart content. This leaves low level areas often overkilled and high level enemies only slowly dying to spores due to a slow start up and short decay times.

I believe a way to fix spores is to remove damage growth per tick and instead focus on damage growth per spore popped, this would allow for a higher base growth number(preferably <20) while at the same time with purposeful neglect it would function as a status spreading tool that would allow for enemy weakening and management as long as spore detonation is kept reserved.

With the "on pop" system in place spores could be allowed to spread through every means from, manual popping, to on death, from all sources while keeping a low amount of damage. Thus spreading more by keeping enemies alive long enough for the spores to strip armor and being able to drastically increase spore damage by utilizing toxic lash and its guaranteed spore popping mechanic. All this does in short is provide an increased amount of control to the Saryn player as to how the spore damage grows or if it sits as a low damage armor removing tool.

As an example, if the Saryn player has 20 enemies infected with three spores each and spores base damage were 5, each enemy would be taking 15 dps. A number unlikely to kill or even soften a group very much, however if 5 of those enemies burst two spores each and lets say each spore has a growth of 10 your new dps would be 315((10*10+5)*3) with each spore individually doing 105 damage per tick. assuming you want to soften enemies so that the can be taken care of at least near the player, and or if your intent is to have enemies live long enough for others to spawn without instant death, then you can choose to not pop further spore for a while to keep growth low and not cause an immediate drop or termination of all active spores due to overactive killing.

TLDR: Growth per pop > growth per tick = more control on when or if spores become powerful. Also spreads on death or pop to full range due to damage control.

No Proc transfer changes, No base damage type changes (corrosive)

[Queen_Crimson]

Saryn after 3.0: Finally up to tier with the other higher quality Warframe. She's viable in most end-game content, and excelled at a (painful) end-game gamemode. Her 2 and 3 finally had value, and her 1 became one of the best long-mission tools in the game. And also importantly for those doing end-game content, she made defense/survival missions and Onslaught feel viable. Apparently it was too useful, and now she's nerfed to barely being a few steps above her previous kit. The nerf ironically undid the entire purpose of Saryn's initial rework, which was to make her less energy-heavy and less micromanaging. With the first round of 3.0 released, her spores did not need to be managed and it was optional to interact with them to spread them. The spores did their work while Saryn could burst some hard damage with her 4, use her 3 to spread them more if they got thin in numbers and buff her weapons, and her 2 to keep alive in rough rooms. Her 2, 3, and 4 are the same, but two of them relied on her 1 to make a large impact, and nerfing her spores nerfed her 3 and 4. Now Saryn constantly needs to, once again, reapply spores to enemies in the room. Her 3 is mandatory to keep it alive, which if you don't build efficiency on her kit, you'll never have enough energy without doing the same thing old Saryn needed, relying on energy pads or Trinity to always have energy available. Her 4 is almost not worth using because of this, meaning you have to decide on trying for some more damage or keeping your spores and spore-spreading 3 alive. 

Overall, Saryn barely changed now that the nerf is done. The only real difference is that she does a bit more damage with her spores and guns, has a bit more survivability, and... Well, that's really it. She's back to being the same thing once again, and this time her spores aren't even good at staying alive, which is required for the pathetically low damage gain from their life span. 

I don't really get why the nerf was done. Saryn wasn't overpowered on anything but a game mode people don't even fully enjoy doing. Basing an entire warframe, and a very old one at that, on a single game mode removes her value from the rest of the game entirely, it's like reworking a warframe to only be viable in Eidolon hunts- Oh wait, Chroma exists. Which brings another point: If you're going to nerf Saryn for being too valuable, what makes the other warframes that are meta fine? Equinox's literal only value in Warframe now is trying to clutch focus farming. Trinity's are blowing their own legs off. Rhinos are still running around not doing anything but CCing but at least they can stay alive forever. And then there's only 6 viable warframes to play Eidolon hunts with, with only 2-3 viable weapons to work with them, and only 1-2 focus trees viable to work with all of that. So why is Saryn, a warframe that was finally decent, now thrown back down into a nerf tunnel because she was finally actually good at something? People play Chroma to one-shot Eidolon limbs as a required meta, and good luck surviving through an Eidolon hunt without a Trinity blessing the squad and lures. 

DE, I know finding a good spot for a warframe is tough in a game as complex as this, but this Saryn change took her from a shining pedestal back to the pile of "oh right, that warframe exists". Please reconsider the changes, and even if the spores were very useful on Onslaught, now they're barely viable over just shooting people. Saryn's been a favorite of mine for years, I'd love to see her remain in the light of fame that warframes like Rhino, Loki, Trinity, and so on hold.

[Excelled]

Time to dump saryn back in the warframe vault.

[CRAFTTHIS]

now that spores dont spread on death i think that a good mechanic could be spores inflate bigger and bigger (kinda like the nukor effect) increasing the range when finally popped, it would encourage players to use their guns and help spread it a little.  Exciting harrow like gameplay. 

 

another idea is as they inflate they would do more and more popped damage, so there would be two ticks, a inital cast on tick of 10-20 ish dmg and a pop dmg that does a beefy 200 ish tick thats applied AOE to others.

Death should not spread it. but in its currnt state i feel like spores alienates 90% of playable tiles, its only useful on sancturary, you can forget about trying to spread anything on larger maps, like outdoor corpus, or plains of ediolon

Edited May 26, 2018 by CRAFTTHIS
more info

[Lancars]

I miss when saryn was simple and fun. Now she is complicated and boring cause of the spores.

[haze777]

Not sure I like saryn.  I mean , Spores don't spread on kill sooo , going max dmg spore is counter intuitive so instead of being a heavy damage mage, we now have a support mage .

In my opinion: Spore is now a decent tool to remove armor and deal a bit of dmg, ( not a nuke skill worth having, specially with the amount of energy needed to keep high numbers alive) ,  her 2nd skill is the same,  third skill is the main skill now (  the most consistent and reliable of all ) and 4rth is just ok .  ITs not that bad , but just idk, not so my type .

What I would like : Spore : increase spread range, make it consistent , but prevent spores from killing enemies ( leave them at 1 hp,  that way , u cannot afk sit onslaught ) .( also could get a bonus to dmg, for every venom counter you have)

                            : Molt:  Attract enemies affected by spore ( and explode doing more dmg the more venom counters you have) (costs venom counter)

                             : toxic lash: Spreads spores, Applies the same toxic buff to weapon and melee, but also heals saryn by 1( times the amount of venom counters you have)  hp , for every spore detonated.

                             : Miasma : Every second the spores is active, increases Miasma dmg ( just like spore now, dmg increases as infection spreads) but it does not decay , once unleashed it will deal x amount of damage as viral aoe  and reset back to 0 (and for every enemy killed with spores on, you get a venom counter.  ( kinda like the new infested warframe) .

Venom counters : Buff's saryn abilities and increases her armor slightly.

this way, saryn stays interactive, non cheap, and gets more effective over time ( kinda like the infested warframe also does) Venom counters would need  a cap, but this will prevent miasma aoe map overkill, spore aoe map overkill  while keeping saryn fun, strong, interactive  and very very toxic ( in a good way).

Edited May 26, 2018 by haze777

[Acquamancer]

I don't understand what you guys are trying to do, honestly. Wasn't the point of Saryn 3.0 making Spores less spammable? At least she had a tiny sustain with Toxic Lash energy gain on 2.0, now we have 0 sustain to help keep spamming Spores. Saryn 3.0 was only unbalanced in small maps with high enemy density *cough cough* Onslaught *cough cough*, otherwise she was meh to mediocre.
 Imo you guys should go back with Saryn 3.0 or just give back TL's energy regen for 3.5. Also, why is Regenerative Molt even a mod? Her Molt is pretty useless as it is (damage is meh, range of explosion is meh compared to the rest of her hit, and now it's even less effective since it doesn't detonate with Miasma anymore). Molt should heal naturally, we lose a mod slot for something so essecial to her sustain.
So basically, 3.0 > 2.0 >>> 3.5.

[Traumtulpe]

I really don't think that Spores not spreading on their own is a problem. The big problem is the decay.

After today's survival Sortie the result is very obvious: Spores and Miasma were almost a total waste of energy. Why, you ask? Three reasons:

• Because I can shoot things with guns. Kills much faster than raising Spores.
• Frequent lack of enemies, causing Spores to never reach useful damage levels.
• 100 energy for a short stun and a little damage? I'd rather refresh Toxic Lash or drop a Molt while shooting.

Spores never reached 700 damage, and believe me I tried. You just don't get a constant stream of enemies.

Regarding Molt; The great thing about Molt is that it does not interrupt shooting and reloading - basically it has no casting animation. Unfortunately some other animations block Molt regardless. You cannot use Molt while attacking in melee, refreshing Toxic Lash, being knocked down, being staggered by Quick Thinking, and rolling. I would absolutely love Molt to be truly independent of animations.

 

 

[Auraknight]

Spores needs to have a .5-1 second 'grace period' before the decay rate starts, (perhaps internally count down the decay, but don't subtract it until the grace period ends) because when at high stacks, I sometimes loose hundreds of points of damage when the last spore carrier is shot, and it takes a quarter of a second to apply the spores automatically to the surrounding available targets.

 

 

Also, dunno if it's intentional, but it feels really weird to lose 20% of my spore damage when I fall off the map.

[Dr.Nepper]

Currently, she is really not fun to play as. Too much micromanagement IMHO. I think spread on death should return or maybe decay should be slowed down a lot, But if DE doesn't change her kit at least move spore counter somewhere where I can see it easily, looking at the lower right corner all the time and not at the crosshair is really annoying.

[Traumtulpe]

Please compare Saryn's Spores to Atlas' Landslide - I believe they are comparable since both Frames are durable casters and both abilities are (supposedly) their main damage spells.

If you have played Atlas, you will know that Landslide scales very well, both short term with doubling damage / halving cost for subsequent casts, and long term through the combo counter. It requires no maintenance, makes Atlas invincible and grants increased rubble (armor/healing). Up to 6 meter radius. Spores scale very poorly short term (up to 20 damage per sec.) and frequently drop to near zero, meaning no long term scaling at all under reasonable circumstances. They require high maintenance and reduce armor, 16 meter radius

Massive defense vs. larger radius + reduced armor, Massive damage vs. unreliable and low damage + bothersome.

Now, of course Saryn isn't Atlas. You are probably not supposed to smoothly spam Spores + Miasma the way you would nonstop cast Petrify + Landslide - but I hope you see the difference. Atlas works, Saryn doesn't.

[(XBOX)Godlike13]

So how do you build her now?

[Issxi]

You all should check this out and tell me what you think ;3

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/960263-saryn-fan-concept/

Edited May 27, 2018 by Xylyssa

[Ozamchist]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Godlike13 said:

So how do you build her now?

For powers try having a healthy balance of power strength and power range.
For survivability armor, health, shields, go nuts, probably want to slap on a regenerative molt too.
I usually go into fights with idea that I'm going to get hit a lot, so I always try to bring rage or hunters adrenaline with that in mind.

[Ozamchist]

9 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

Anyone miss the good ol' days?

I never miss the "good ol' days" because they tend to be hekking terrible.

[Ark218]

Her original rework was better, even if some people did not enjoy being unable to recast spores. I liked the synergy of recasting to explode the spores, and it worked well within the kit. Now, with the re-rework it is not nearly as enjoyable to play her, as you become stressed about keeping the spores up. Spore decay and new DoT numbers would be fine if she kept her other spore spread mechanic, but changing both feels bad.

[tester616]

If you plan on keeping things this way please consider adding a small-ish window for enemies where they spread spores after taking damage that would spread them on a killing blow. I doubt anyone likes to play roulette with last hitting. Did your weapon refuse to crit and thus leave an enemy in critical state only to have a spore finish him off and ruin the spread? Too bad, better luck next time.

[Naneel]

Took her to SO and Sortie today :

• Spores can't be used on low level enemies when you are in a team, as mostly your targets will die before you can cast spores. I don't think this is a problem as you don't need the damage scale or the armor reduction and the spores start to work about level 50 enemies, depends on the weapons of your team.
• Molt does not have enough aggro-potential as most enemies will still shoot at you
• Spores spread great in survival and with the decay they also work well in Exterminate. They did however not work on Lt. Lech Kril, regardless of his state I couldn't cast spores on him. It always said "invalid target".

All in all I like her rework.

[hexacypher]

Played a bit with the re-reworked spores, and they do 'feel' better than the original rework, but as has been pointed out, the decay, micromanagement, and no spread on death, etc. etc. are killing it. Not like the original rework didn't already wreck them to begin with.

I can't believe it's only been 9 days since you guys butchered Saryn to death, it feels like we've been wallowing in this trash pile for more than a month. It'd be nice if we could just rewind, to say, the Saryn at the beginning of this month and throw this rework into a volcano were it belongs.

Saryn at this point is going on the shelf, vault or whatever for me. I'd say I'd like to focus on Equinox, Mesa or another frame, but at this point I don't trust you guys will leave any Frame alone that doesn't fit your ideas of "Fun" or whatever excuse you use to nerf a Frame.

The logical end really is, why even support a company and play a game that is hostile to it's own player base? It'd be lovely to see the old Saryn back in June, but I guess I should be thinking about winding down my Guild commitments and just getting out.