[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[x2yt]

After playing saryn for the last 2 weeks extensively, here are few things I've concluded:.

Saryn spores were severely overpowered after first rework, but now are severely underpowered after last re-balance.

After first rework spores would spread on dead enemies, be non-recastable and with basically infinite damage scaling. This made her incredibly end-game viable frame, basically best DPS for any survival, defense or any other such activity with enemies that scale high. Considering Saryn also was incredibly energy efficient meant you could build full tank build to survive even high-level enemies with minimal loss in firepower. The biggest challenge was to actually keep spores on, since most of the time anything below lvl70 would die before spores could spread efficiently. BUT, while this made Saryn AFK-ish frame in mid-levels, this was certainly not so in lower levels, where'd you'd have to run around and constantly maintain spores because everyone was dying so fast, and neither in high-level instances, where you'd have to constantly micromanage spores and try to stay alive. Admittedly, at high levels micromanagement was getting easier, but actual survival was getting harder, so I'd say it was pretty good balance all things considered.

AFTER remake though. Saryn is way, way less end-game viable, despite the fact that you can recast spores on target. The main problem now is that Saryn requires way, way more micromanagement because spores don't spread anymore on enemy death. This means Saryn has to literally be in the middle of enemies basically every fight if player wants to keep spores spreading, which is not very easy to do considering even tank Saryn is not hard to kill. Lower level Saryn gameplay now is way less interesting, as low level enemies die so fast from basically any weapon adding spore damage to it doesn't make much difference, spores just add the element of annoyance since most of players instinctively aim to keep spores going, and unable to do so due to fragile enemies is really triggering. Medium level is where Saryn shines now, as it combines the fact you can spam spores, use toxic lash to spread them and actually survive without having to grow 5 extra hands to micromanage everything. Combined with Regenerative Molt, this makes gameplay up to level60 or so enemies somewhat intensive, but still doable. The problem comes after enemies scale past that lvl60 or so. Spores scaling is capped now, so unless you can keep up the max amount of enemies infected, spores don't scale fast enough to efficiently damage enemies. BUT, enemies still attack your team while infected, and teammates are forced to engage in fights to survive, which in turn kills spore carriers and either cripples your spore damage, or kills all spore carries outright, so you have to start from the start. This makes micromanagement even more difficult, because IF Saryn isn't on frontline  spamming 1st ability, either teammates kill targets, OR targets die off before Saryn is able to recast spores to keep the damage up. But, IF Saryn is on the frontline spamming spores, then either Saryn dies, or runs ouf of energy and still dies in the end regardless. Thats not to mention there are times when spores cannot be cast, for instance when enemies are getting afflicted by fissure, there's like 5 second gap where they're immune to spore casts. It may not seem like much, but when Saryn is literally in the middle of fight, 5 second break is all it takes for Saryn got get rekt. At lvl100+ the Saryn gameplay is not even fun anymore, its mostly just extremely frustrating and annoying. 

Best solution IMO would to keep the damage cap on, but enable spores to spread on enemy death tick. This would keep the gameplay less annoying to manage, while still maintaining Saryn balanced enough to not break the game with godlike damage. Maybe even reduce max amount of targets for damage scaling. Or something else even, but spread on death is literally crucial for anything higher than lvl60.

Edited May 27, 2018 by x2yt

[Rivv0]

15 hours ago, Shield00 said:

The current issues spore still has is that, the true strength of the ability will not come unto itself until enemy levels have far exceeded star chart content. This leaves low level areas often overkilled and high level enemies only slowly dying to spores due to a slow start up and short decay times.

I believe a way to fix spores is to remove damage growth per tick and instead focus on damage growth per spore popped, this would allow for a higher base growth number(preferably <20) while at the same time with purposeful neglect it would function as a status spreading tool that would allow for enemy weakening and management as long as spore detonation is kept reserved.

With the "on pop" system in place spores could be allowed to spread through every means from, manual popping, to on death, from all sources while keeping a low amount of damage. Thus spreading more by keeping enemies alive long enough for the spores to strip armor and being able to drastically increase spore damage by utilizing toxic lash and its guaranteed spore popping mechanic. All this does in short is provide an increased amount of control to the Saryn player as to how the spore damage grows or if it sits as a low damage armor removing tool.

As an example, if the Saryn player has 20 enemies infected with three spores each and spores base damage were 5, each enemy would be taking 15 dps. A number unlikely to kill or even soften a group very much, however if 5 of those enemies burst two spores each and lets say each spore has a growth of 10 your new dps would be 315((10*10+5)*3) with each spore individually doing 105 damage per tick. assuming you want to soften enemies so that the can be taken care of at least near the player, and or if your intent is to have enemies live long enough for others to spawn without instant death, then you can choose to not pop further spore for a while to keep growth low and not cause an immediate drop or termination of all active spores due to overactive killing.

TLDR: Growth per pop > growth per tick = more control on when or if spores become powerful. Also spreads on death or pop to full range due to damage control.

No Proc transfer changes, No base damage type changes (corrosive)

I like ideas like this. This would solve the problem a few people have been having when they feel like they shouldn't be killing enemies for the sake of their spore damage. This seems like it would be more fun and more intuitive to what Saryn was before. Cultivating her disease of mass destruction. I think exploring down this path would help return her to her prior feeling in her 3.0 rework without making her absolutely insane. 

@[DE]Danielle @[DE]Pablo Please take this idea into consideration when revisiting spores.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Rivv0
Wished to add tags to directly notify Devs

[Mover-NeRo]

I really hope they fix the issue that you cant spread spores on enemies that have spores of someone else on them!!!  This is serious problem.

 

EDIT:

Just a note tho.  I feel like the pre rework saryn spores was more about debufing. There was this Molt casting spam, what was problem for DE. Solution was removing Molt+Spore interaction but buffing the spores from debuff to DMG dealer abbility. Now they realized its too strong (in totaly not balanced enviroment ESO) and we ended up with DMG abbility that is really hard and frustrating (spores dmg disapear, spores fail to spread even with kills, and totoaly not reliable in team) to keep going.

Its sad but i have to say...Saryn is in whorse position now than she was before rework 😞

Edited May 27, 2018 by Mover-NeRo

[7ckngRaGE]

I tested the saryn rework and didn't liked it , decay rate was too high and i also dont like the decay system....I like the saryn which was before revisit 2.0 .What you should do is.....Keep the original saryn prime just change the viral to corrosive and and make the spores damage based on strength thats it , no need to change anything , that 8m range was enough and spores should spread if the person dies with spores tick damage just like the original one or else you can do is remove the decay system just keep this recasting on enemies will put new Spores on a target with a 20% decrease to its damage per second thing . But i must say one thing original Saryn prime was much better and i dont think it needs a rework just that viral damage was OP we all know, changing it to corrosive fixed it. It needs nothing else

Edited May 27, 2018 by Ult1mat3S1n_RaGE

[Rankii]

Now that the spores have settled, can we just admit that this is an Onslaught-based nerf? Because she's a trashfire anywhere BUT onslaught and in onslaught she's an over-complicated mess of micromanagment.

Maybe instead of nerfing saryn they could have made onslaught a better mode

[_GoodLuck_]

Removing spreading when an enemy die from Spore's damage is a bad idea. It gets against original Saryn's conception - spreading. Instead of nothing, just add half of original range, it would be enough (8m).

[Fyrscha]

Ya know, for the impetus of these new Saryn changes being "we want to stop Saryn from just being a spore turret", the way she turned out is suprisingly similar to a mobile spore machine and little else. I feel like ALL I DO on Saryn now is think about spores, monitor spores, try to build my entire load out around spores, try to manage my spores in combat... it's like now everything about Saryn is spores and I can't think about or implement anything else... let alone actually ENJOY her like I have for years. 

 

I praise DE for wanting to embellish fan favorite frames, but let's all be honest here... who was crying for a Saryn overhaul? No one I know, and no one in my alliance was, and no one on my friend list was. Was there a huge forum outcry for a Saryn overhaul? I didnt find any with a google search. 

 

Why do this to Saryn when A- she ironically became little more than a spore spammer and B- so many other fan-favorite frames need overhauls and players actually make their voices heard about wanting changes to those frames?

 

Again, DE, I appreciate you and support your love/care with this game, especially the beautiful audio-visual changes to Saryn. I love Saryn and I love most of the overhaul... but still the question remains... why?

Edited May 27, 2018 by Fyrscha

[Windy_Wind]

The decay rate is ridiculous...please make it lower.

[Lanaestra]

It's very hard to strike a balance between spreading DoT set-it-and-forget it mode and what we have now, which is frankly unintuitive and very clunky, because you have to worry about doing too much damage as much as you worry about not enough. It's simply a nightmare to sustain, which the extremely harsh decay does nothing to solve.

I think the solution has to include spores spreading on dot tick death, otherwise the ability becomes paradoxically worthless on weak enemies.

At the same time, you do need something to stop it being a one-cast wonder like the last iteration was in ESO. I think a big part of the problem with the last iteration was that you tried to use range to incentivize active interaction with the ability, without considering whether range was actually a limiting factor in all situations, such as ESO.

I think the best solution here is to give spores full spread range, even on tick death, and require the player to actively pop spores as the only means of increasing the damage over time. That way, you always want more damage, so you stay interactive, while not being particularly more or less broken in extreme environments where enemies are plentiful and range is a non-issue.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Lanaestra
Proofreading pass

[Fyrscha]

3 hours ago, Lanaestra said:

At the same time, you do need something to stop it being a one-cast wonder like the last iteration was in ESO. I think a big part of the problem with the last iteration was that you tried to use range to incentivize active interaction with the ability, without considering whether range was actually a limiting factor in all situations, such as ESO.

Or, hear me out here... OR perhaps the devs could decide to not completely re-work an entire frame just because of a new game mode. 

[Fyrscha]

Something else I've noticed about new Saryn from playing all day... 

Anyone else feel like there's lots of delay or false-starts with casting her abilities? I've played Saryn hundreds of hours and I'm used to her abilities flowing smoothly and being able to cast them fluidly, never once before this rework do I remember looking down at my keys and wondering if my fingers are even pressing the right buttons.

This weekend however, it feels like at least a few times a mission when I go to active spores, molt, or miasma it just doesn't cast sometimes. Like there's some kind of animation fail-start or an existing animation or unseen mechanic that keeps the power from activating. 

Anyone else notice this? or am I just having personal issues this weekend?

Edited May 27, 2018 by Fyrscha

[SyBuhr]

11 hours ago, x2yt said:

After playing saryn for the last 2 weeks extensively, here are few things I've concluded:.

Saryn spores were severely overpowered after first rework, but now are severely underpowered after last re-balance.

After first rework spores would spread on dead enemies, be non-recastable and with basically infinite damage scaling. This made her incredibly end-game viable frame, basically best DPS for any survival, defense or any other such activity with enemies that scale high. Considering Saryn also was incredibly energy efficient meant you could build full tank build to survive even high-level enemies with minimal loss in firepower. The biggest challenge was to actually keep spores on, since most of the time anything below lvl70 would die before spores could spread efficiently. BUT, while this made Saryn AFK-ish frame in mid-levels, this was certainly not so in lower levels, where'd you'd have to run around and constantly maintain spores because everyone was dying so fast, and neither in high-level instances, where you'd have to constantly micromanage spores and try to stay alive. Admittedly, at high levels micromanagement was getting easier, but actual survival was getting harder, so I'd say it was pretty good balance all things considered.

AFTER remake though. Saryn is way, way less end-game viable, despite the fact that you can recast spores on target. The main problem now is that Saryn requires way, way more micromanagement because spores don't spread anymore on enemy death. This means Saryn has to literally be in the middle of enemies basically every fight if player wants to keep spores spreading, which is not very easy to do considering even tank Saryn is not hard to kill. Lower level Saryn gameplay now is way less interesting, as low level enemies die so fast from basically any weapon adding spore damage to it doesn't make much difference, spores just add the element of annoyance since most of players instinctively aim to keep spores going, and unable to do so due to fragile enemies is really triggering. Medium level is where Saryn shines now, as it combines the fact you can spam spores, use toxic lash to spread them and actually survive without having to grow 5 extra hands to micromanage everything. Combined with Regenerative Molt, this makes gameplay up to level60 or so enemies somewhat intensive, but still doable. The problem comes after enemies scale past that lvl60 or so. Spores scaling is capped now, so unless you can keep up the max amount of enemies infected, spores don't scale fast enough to efficiently damage enemies. BUT, enemies still attack your team while infected, and teammates are forced to engage in fights to survive, which in turn kills spore carriers and either cripples your spore damage, or kills all spore carries outright, so you have to start from the start. This makes micromanagement even more difficult, because IF Saryn isn't on frontline  spamming 1st ability, either teammates kill targets, OR targets die off before Saryn is able to recast spores to keep the damage up. But, IF Saryn is on the frontline spamming spores, then either Saryn dies, or runs ouf of energy and still dies in the end regardless. Thats not to mention there are times when spores cannot be cast, for instance when enemies are getting afflicted by fissure, there's like 5 second gap where they're immune to spore casts. It may not seem like much, but when Saryn is literally in the middle of fight, 5 second break is all it takes for Saryn got get rekt. At lvl100+ the Saryn gameplay is not even fun anymore, its mostly just extremely frustrating and annoying. 

Best solution IMO would to keep the damage cap on, but enable spores to spread on enemy death tick. This would keep the gameplay less annoying to manage, while still maintaining Saryn balanced enough to not break the game with godlike damage. Maybe even reduce max amount of targets for damage scaling. Or something else even, but spread on death is literally crucial for anything higher than lvl60.

This, pretty much. +like.

Saryn is back to being energy-hungry after the re-balance. Re-casting spore, for a damage reduction of %20 is a massive loss as your damage cap increases, and is essentially the same as the Detonation method, only we get a slight reprieve from losing it all. Why would I want to recast spore, at 25 base-energy a pop, for a reduction in damage? There's literally no reason other than all the enemies have died (essentially, enemies at low levels, and even occasionally in mid-tier missions), and then I am further punished for a %20 damage reduction, in addition to the ~%10 lost each second? 

So basically, if I am not TAS'ing, doing frame-perfect Bullet-Jump-Rolls with the occasional Half-A press, to get Pixel-perfect dodges on enemy hit-scan attacks to allow me to survive in firefights, while maintaining enough energy to utilize my toxic lash to pop the spores, she isn't going to be attaining any high-damage numbers. Low to mid level, enemies will end up disintegrating before you can even pop the spores, and high-level enemies will brush off the initial damage growth, and proceed to eliminate you with extreme prejudice due to their slash procs.

All silliness aside, my wrists and fingers actually cramped from playing her in level 60-70 missions, because I had to do so many inputs to just survive, and then manage my spores. I was actually debating binding my side mouse buttons to actually BJR (One input for the Bullet-jump, then another for the roll, that way I could use my thumb instead of my left pinky finger, letting me relax my left hand more and use it to focus purely on precise WASD movements). I've played Chopin musical pieces on the piano easier, and less painful, than this. She isn't fun for low-mid tier missions due to not being able to use her Spores appropriately, and high-level missions require so many inputs for her to be effective, that I've dropped her entirely, unless I am warming my hands up for musical practice.

Saryn really does need the spore-spread-on-death mechanic back, because it's what allows her to survive through utility. The extra armor that was given to her means nothing at high-levels, where slash procs will chew through your HP unless you go into operator mode and sit somewhere in the void like a potato (While being completely useless to your team in the process). Her toxic lash is a band-aid at this point, because many enemies will seek cover, forcing you to engage them (at which point, might as well use melee), which normally puts you straight in the middle of the entire mob. Sometimes, enemies will not even come to you at all, which has always been an issue, but is now amplified by this. This isn't even including things such as: Team-mates destroying your spore targets before you, Void-Fissures curing Spored enemies, Nullifiers, Bursas (The ones that shoot out the mini-nullification fields), and spores themselves. She relies heavily on the spread mechanic, and it's now been gimped heavily.

1 minute ago, Fyrscha said:

Something else I've noticed about new Saryn from playing all day... 

Anyone else feel like there's lots of delay or false-starts with casting her abilities? I've played Saryn hundreds of hours and I'm used to her abilities flowing smoothly and being able to cast them fluidly, never once before this rework do I remember looking down at my keys and wondering if my fingers are even pressing the right buttons.

This weekend however, it feels like at least a few times a mission when I go to active spores, molt, or miasma it just doesn't cast sometimes. Like there's some kind of animation fail-start or an existing animation or unseen mechanic that keeps the power from activating. 

Anyone else notice this? or am I just having personal issues this weekend?

I haven't noticed it, but I'll take a look at in. You could always go to the Simulacrum, and toy around. Sometimes, her ending-animations for certain actions do take precedence over starting new animations (such as heavy-landing, for instance, or some of the ending animations for melee).

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

Ok. From everything I've read, I've got the best way to go about this rework.

 

Spore:

   •Recastable

   •Spore has infinite duration and scaling.

   •Scaling works by spreading the spore and by damage dealt by the spore as is. 

   •Spore scales faster when spread.

   •Spore loses damage at 10% per second over 10 seconds. Modified heavily by duration.

   •Spore spreads no matter what and spreads at 1/2 to 1/4  range on target death by spores

 

Molt:

   •as far as I can tell it functions fine as is. Maybe remove status upon using. It is a molting after all

 

Toxic lash:

   •MUST give energy back on spore spread(otherwise saryn is stupid energy hungry for no reason. I don't know why this wasn't added back when spores became Recastable again).

   •Otherwise functions as is. 

 

Miasma:

   •Amplify damage over time. The longer this ability has to work, the more damage it deals to enemies inside it. Effect Resets on enemies entering the range of this ability for the remaining duration of this ability

   •Double damage per second ability is active on an enemy. 

   •Damage can start at 10.

   •Set duration to 10 seconds base.

   •Resets on recast. (Helps stop spamming).

   •Modified lightly by power strength.

   •If toxic lash is active this ability costs less if hitting an enemy infected by spores.

   •Spreads spores if an enemy is killed by spores within the duration of this ability.  

[Rage_Inducer]

Overall these latest changes are pretty good. Loving the new decay added to the spore damage and the spread range consistency. What I don't enjoy as much is the painfully slow additive increase of the damage in contrast to the exponential decay. Please increase the cap for enemies that count towards the damage ramp up of spores (15 to 20 would be much better)

Another thing that would allow saryn to be at least moderately successful outside of onslaught is to have her spores spread on a heavily reduced range upon death from the spores damage. As it stands weaker enemies die too quick to even give a chance to spread the spores. This change would encourage casting spores on a crowd as well.

[Salvia_Divinorum]

Spores seems useless now, we can use 4 corrosive auras or one frost to remove armour instead this painful spore mechanic. Damage of new spores is too low for anything else.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Salvia_Divinorum

[ZarakkiZenn]

Overall the changes are positive and make Saryn a more balanced and enjoyable frame to play. That said, she is much too strong.

I tested Saryn extensively in all mission types, level ranges, etc., as one should, and what it boils down to is that she's essentially an infinitely scaling pre-nerf ember. The most revealing experience I had since the revisit was solo kuva survival, where I learned that regardless of enemy level, after popping a spore everything within range would be dead within three to five seconds; the ramp up makes it so you're at the appropriate damage threshold for the level in question, provided spawns occur frequently enough. Why this is a good thing and people are upset that she's not technically as strong as Saryn 2.0 and are actually calling for buffs, is beyond me. The gameplay is mind numbingly dull.

However, being a realist I realize that she is unlikely to be fundamentally altered in the near future so I'll restrict my feedback to the aforementioned and the following: toxic lash being a necessity makes Saryn more energy intensive than she was. I understand the reasoning, I think, in that if spores are popped prematurely you're not getting the damage from them but realistically, if an enemy is being shot at that enemy should be dead. I would very much like to retain the ability to pop spores on hit without toxic lash, especially on AoE weapons.

Overall, however, I feel this rework missed the mark. Less confusing? Kinda. More active? Not really, you just can't nuke from one spot but she's more afky than ever in how easily she can wipe a map, and do so at any level. Better? Sure, kps went through the roof. More fun? Not at all... And perhaps more importantly: Fun to have in your squad? That's the big question at this point, as far as I'm concerned. After playing Saryn enough to understand how she operates in practice and pugging with other frames, several times I had the following experience: "There is an enemy, I see him, lining up my shot ... aaaaaaand it's dead! But I didn't shoot". Every time this happened I thought to myself, "ah, we must have a Saryn in our squad" and sure enough when I hit Esc and checked the frames, there was. Like I said, essentially an infinitely scaling pre-nerf ember without the toggle. And I kid you not, when I was doing solo survival runs I felt most of the time my spores where in decay state. Why? Because as soon as I found an enemy to throw them on and have them spread, everything would be dead within three to five seconds. That's how "good" she is, regardless of enemy level.

More to the point, why on Earth would a Saryn rework fundamentally alter spores and miasma and not molt and toxic lash? That's like grabbing a partially rotten vegetable, cutting and throwing away the good parts only to replace it with another ingredient altogether, then proceeding to chop up the putrid vegetable, season it, and toss in the salad.

Edited May 28, 2018 by ZarakkiZenn

[Fyrscha]

1 minute ago, ZarakkiZenn said:

Overall the changes are positive and make Saryn a more balanced and enjoyable frame to play. That said, she is much too strong.

I tested Saryn extensively in all mission types, level ranges, etc., as one should, and what it boils down to is that she's essentially an infinitely scaling pre-nerf ember. The most revealing experience I had since the revisit was solo kuva survival, where I learned that regardless of enemy level, after popping a spore everything within range would be dead within three to five seconds; the ramp up makes it so you're at the appropriate damage threshold for the level in question, provided spawns occur frequently enough. Why this is a good thing and people are upset that she's not technically as strong as Saryn 2.0 and are actually calling for buffs, is beyond me. The gameplay is mind numbingly dull.

However, being a realist I realize that she is unlikely to be fundamentally altered in the near future so I'll restrict my feedback to the aforementioned and the following: toxic lash being a necessity makes Saryn more energy intensive than she was. I understand the reasoning, I think, in that if spores are popped prematurely you're not getting the damage from them but realistically, if an enemy is being shot at that enemy should be dead. I would very much like to retain the ability to pop spores on hit without toxic lash, especially on AoE weapons.

Overall, however, I feel this rework missed the mark. Less confusing? Kinda. More active? Not really, you just can't nuke from one spot but she's more afky than ever in how easily she can wipe a map, and do so at any level. Better? Sure, kps went through the roof. More fun? Not at all... And perhaps more importantly: Fun to have in your squad? That's the big question at this point, as far as I'm concerned. After playing Saryn enough to understand how she operates in practice and pugging with other frames, several times I had the following experience: "There is an enemy, I see him, lining up my shot ... aaaaaaand it's dead! But I didn't shoot". Every time this happened I thought to myself, "ah, we must have a Saryn in our squad" and sure enough when I hit Esc and checked the frames, there was. Like I said, essentially an infinitely scaling pre-nerf ember without the toggle. And I kid you not, when I was doing solo survival runs I felt most of the time my spores where in decay state. Why? Because as soon as I found an enemy to throw them on and have them spread, everything would be dead within three to five seconds. That's how "good" she is, regardless of enemy level.

More to the point, why on Earth would a Saryn rework fundamentally alter spores and miasma and not molt and toxic lash? That's like grabbing a partially rotten vegetable, cutting and throwing away the good parts only to replace it with another ingredient altogether, then proceeding to chop up the putrid vegetable, season it, and toss in the salad.

I concur nearly 100% with this. 

[Traumtulpe]

What 3.0 Spores was:

• A short term, self propagating damage spell. It would increase in damage rapidly until it killed everything in range and had to be restarted.
• Strong and fun.
• Too reliant on high range and large numbers of enemies.
• Stupidly overpowered if you could avoid restarting it.

What 3.5 Spores are:

• A debuff that strips armor over time.
• Has to be spread manually.
• Not at all worth using against enemies without armor.
• Pretends to be a damage spell with lots of irrelevant numbers and modifiers.

What Miasma is:

• A waste of 100 energy.
• Might be useful if it's virus status stacked with virus from weapons.
• Might be useful if it increased Spores damage value.

So what to do with Spores? Choose one:

1. Go back to 3.0 with some modifications: Can be recast but it reduces damage severely, spread radius decreases over time (recast spores start with full radius and override older spores), scaling damage not based on number of enemies (maybe enemy health and shields instead).
2. Similar to 3.5 but with long term scaling: No decay at all, balance damage through recasting, scaling damage not based on number of enemies (maybe a fixed value).
3. Stop pretending it's supposed to deal damage and make it useful against enemies without armor (it could reduce damage dealt by infected enemies, starting at ~15% and increasing to ~45% over a few seconds, scaling with power strength up to 90%).

Not related to Spores at all:

• Please allow Molt to be cast regardless of current action (while attacking, being staggered, rolling etc.)
• Think of the cool poses you could have your Molt make!
• It would make Molt even more awesome.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Traumtulpe

[leirynot]

Quote

Stop pretending it's supposed to deal damage and make it useful against enemies without armor (it could reduce damage dealt by infected enemies, starting at ~15% and increasing to ~45% over a few seconds, scaling with power strength up to 90%). 

Or just change it back to viral damage/proc.

[Rankii]

3 hours ago, ZarakkiZenn said:

[snip]

More to the point, why on Earth would a Saryn rework fundamentally alter spores and miasma and not molt and toxic lash? That's like grabbing a partially rotten vegetable, cutting and throwing away the good parts only to replace it with another ingredient altogether, then proceeding to chop up the putrid vegetable, season it, and toss in the salad.

This! Spore 2.0 worked. Miasma had synergy with it and as much I as still feel like 2.0 miasma was a nerf it still worked better than it does now (no synergy, no damage boosting, bigger range but less damage). Meanwhile molt is still useless without the augment (meaning you also likely slot in Rage/VA, killing two mod slots), and toxic lash lost its energy payback while saryn is still an energy-hungry mess of kneejerk nerfs"buffs"

Instead of asking "How can we change this frame that clearly works and is used?" they should be asking "How do we improve these frames we don't see used?"

When was the last time anyone saw a vauban or wukong? What about poor, poor Nyx?

[Hamsterius]

31 minutes ago, Rankii said:

Instead of asking "How can we change this frame that clearly works and is used?" they should be asking "How do we improve these frames we don't see used?"

When was the last time anyone saw a vauban or wukong? What about poor, poor Nyx?

I'd agree normally, but I really don't want DE to hit-and-run Saryn and now run off to some other frame before they finish making this one non-Onslaught viable.

Honestly they should just fully revert Spores and Miasma, leave in only the Molt+Lash changes, and then they really should move on to some frame that was critically injured BEFORE they went after them.

[Fyrscha]

1 hour ago, Hamsterius said:

I'd agree normally, but I really don't want DE to hit-and-run Saryn and now run off to some other frame

you right, you right 

[0_The_F00l]

Hello DE ,

Although effectively this is a bit of a nerf , Saryn does feel more balanced now. (When are you guys giving a similar rework to Trinity ?)

But while playing i have noticed a few issues .

1) Spore counter disappears completely if cast on an enemy that dies before the animation completes ,even if i have other enemies still infected - this needs to be fixed due to obvious reasons, this has happened multiple times on multiple playthroughs - High priority needs to be fixed ASAP!

2) Spores don't seem to spread when multiple saryns are present , it is a little harder to understand this and not sure if bug or intended. - Needs fix if bug

3) Energy is a bit of an issue now , this is not extremely bad and can be managed by the right focus and build , but Saryn is now a caster frame where all abilities need to be active for more or less all times , and though she has pretty high energy i have found myself unable to cast a lot of times. perhaps re look at replenishing at least some energy, perhaps as an augment to lash? - good to have but not essential

4) The Spore damage ramp up is slow , while the falloff is rather quick , and i don't really have any problems it should be hard to gain thing than to lose em,  but why not make both as a percentage ? instead of fixed for rise and percentage for falloff? example , each time it spreads (by toxic lash only?) there is a 1% raise in current spore damage multiplied by growth factor, so a max 10% rise in addition to the fixed 2 per second per factor? - suggestion not essential

Overall i am in agreement with most of the changes but the numbers could use some tweaking according to me to be viable both at early as well as high levels,

At the moment ,

At low levels keeping spores active is difficult (everything dies in a few seconds after initial cast and spread)

At high levels it works wonderfully and ramps up very far but not everyone plays high level content.

[SyBuhr]

6 hours ago, ZarakkiZenn said:

Overall the changes are positive and make Saryn a more balanced and enjoyable frame to play. That said, she is much too strong.

I tested Saryn extensively in all mission types, level ranges, etc., as one should, and what it boils down to is that she's essentially an infinitely scaling pre-nerf ember. The most revealing experience I had since the revisit was solo kuva survival, where I learned that regardless of enemy level, after popping a spore everything within range would be dead within three to five seconds; the ramp up makes it so you're at the appropriate damage threshold for the level in question, provided spawns occur frequently enough. Why this is a good thing and people are upset that she's not technically as strong as Saryn 2.0 and are actually calling for buffs, is beyond me. The gameplay is mind numbingly dull.

However, being a realist I realize that she is unlikely to be fundamentally altered in the near future so I'll restrict my feedback to the aforementioned and the following: toxic lash being a necessity makes Saryn more energy intensive than she was. I understand the reasoning, I think, in that if spores are popped prematurely you're not getting the damage from them but realistically, if an enemy is being shot at that enemy should be dead. I would very much like to retain the ability to pop spores on hit without toxic lash, especially on AoE weapons.

Overall, however, I feel this rework missed the mark. Less confusing? Kinda. More active? Not really, you just can't nuke from one spot but she's more afky than ever in how easily she can wipe a map, and do so at any level. Better? Sure, kps went through the roof. More fun? Not at all... And perhaps more importantly: Fun to have in your squad? That's the big question at this point, as far as I'm concerned. After playing Saryn enough to understand how she operates in practice and pugging with other frames, several times I had the following experience: "There is an enemy, I see him, lining up my shot ... aaaaaaand it's dead! But I didn't shoot". Every time this happened I thought to myself, "ah, we must have a Saryn in our squad" and sure enough when I hit Esc and checked the frames, there was. Like I said, essentially an infinitely scaling pre-nerf ember without the toggle. And I kid you not, when I was doing solo survival runs I felt most of the time my spores where in decay state. Why? Because as soon as I found an enemy to throw them on and have them spread, everything would be dead within three to five seconds. That's how "good" she is, regardless of enemy level.

More to the point, why on Earth would a Saryn rework fundamentally alter spores and miasma and not molt and toxic lash? That's like grabbing a partially rotten vegetable, cutting and throwing away the good parts only to replace it with another ingredient altogether, then proceeding to chop up the putrid vegetable, season it, and toss in the salad.

• More active? Not really, you just can't nuke from one spot but she's more afky than ever in how easily she can wipe a map, and do so at any level.
  • Can't actually do that anymore; Now you are forced to actually kill the enemies yourself, as spores do not spread on their own when they kill. This means you have to not only find a suitable target to spore, but then either get in line-of-fire, or melee range, and proceed to spread the spores yourself.
  • She can't really do this with any map, at any level. If the spores are not spread via your kill (Not by a team-mate, and not by the spore itself), you will ultimately lose the spores, which I have found to be the case with any Low-Mid tier missions in the starchart. This is a bit of a problem because, Warframe (The game) is meant to be a multiplayer experience. Another issue is that you are constantly searching for those damage ticks, that tend to float and disappear quickly. My suggestion to this was to allow team-mates the ability to spread spores when they kill, and give Saryn a sort of "X-ray" outline of your afflicted targets. This way, you aren't always combating against your team-mates, and not always stressfully searching for that last Victim. So in bad tile-sets, where the spawns are varied, you won't nuke that whole map. Another issue is that enemies spawn in waves, in most star-chart missions, so you don't have a constant stream of enemies to nuke, even when they are in range.
• Fun to be in a Squad?
  • Saryn is not fun to play, solo, in a team with her, or in a team as her, if you are not coordinating with that team. In solo play, I find her Spores to be useless in any Low-Mid tier mission, because they still kill too quick (Despite having a very low Power.Str) for me to spread and achieve anything meaningful, and because they do not spread when the kill, they are essentially useless. In team settings, if you are not coordinating properly, she is either the one to hog the kills, or gets gimped by her squad (due to the squad killing off select victims, hindering spore-spread).
  • Saryn cannot be paired with another Saryn, because one of them will always have better micro-management of her spores. This said, it also gimps Saryn players in PUGs. This is, again, a condition out of the player's/s' control(s), unless they are coordinating in a squad before-hand.
• Gameplay is mind numbingly dull.
  • I find the gameplay to have become more stressful now, due to always having to chance around my final victims to keep those spore stacks, added to the fact that, when you finally get to higher level content, you are incredibly fragile (even with the recent boost in armor). I've found myself weaving in and out constantly, and often times lose my stacks altogether due to dying, either because I peeked my head out at the wrong time, or jumping into the fray to spread the spores with melee. She was really only good in small, contained tile-sets where she could sit in a spot and spread the spores quickly, due to the quick respawns (cough cough, onslaught). Taking her on any star-chart mission, and you can just forget about it, unless the enemy level is high enough for you to get a decent spread without dying.
• Saryn is more energy intensive...
  • Yes, but Saryn has always been like this, but it was mitigated due to the fact that Toxic Lash allowed you to regain two energy a hit, along with the added bonus of Zenurik Energy Dash. I am still on the fence about how I feel regarding this removal of her built-in energy regeneration, especially now that re-casting spores is a must on mid-tier missions and in Void Fissure missions. It is also needless to say that, High level corpus missions, the Plains of Eidolon, and the next up-coming open-world planet are pointless to use her Spores in, either due to how far the enemies are spread out/spawn, or due to Nullifiers.
• Saryn a more balanced and enjoyable frame to play. That said, she is much too strong.
  • That's-... That's a walking contradiction. You cannot say in one sentence she is more balanced, and then return with a "She is too strong". Yes, the scaling damage is great, but she used to have built-in scaling damage via her viral procs on her Spores in 2.0, which also lent themselves better to spreading. Before, you could easily carpet an entire map with her viral spores, which also didn't eliminate all the enemies. Mind you, this didn't even require the molt combination that most people used, you could literally do this just by aiming at the spores, and popping them. This allowed you to debuff an entire map, allow you squad-mates to quickly kill them off, or allow the spores to kill off for you (given a bit of time), all while allowing them to propagate themselves. Now you not only have to actively (and stressfully) weave in and out of combat, which can result in death in higher levels, but also search and destroy the final target, not allowing your team-mates any of your kills. 
• "There is an enemy, I see him, lining up my shot ... aaaaaaand it's dead! But I didn't shoot".
  • This is how I feel as a Saryn player. Every time I spore my patient-zero, he ends up being one shot by someone before I can even spread the darn thing. I feel adequately useless in any Mid-Tier mission because of this, and don't really even start to creep up until Higher level enemies spawn. By that time (because most people only do up to 4 rotations), everyone is already ready to bounce out of there. 
• "... Fundamentally alter spores and miasma and not molt and toxic lash?"
  • Because the Development team probably saw those two abilities as her most used ones, and probably wanted to originally nerf the abilities, because when you think of an ability that is problematic, you don't think of the two that players have requested Quality of Life changes for. You think of the two that the player-base uses constantly, and those two happened to be Miasma and Spores. The reason is because they were very good in 2.0, and remained solid in 3.0. Now it is a matter of how well they will remain, and given the fact that 3.5 essentially nerfed spore-spread (because the spores will usually out-kill before you can), I can't say I remain super optimistic about it. Yes, the other changes to the spread range are nice, but those really should have been there from the get-go, given the fact that team-mates cannot (and couldn't) spread the spores.

Ultimately, if you think Saryn is "Super Strong", that's fine. I personally do not see her that way, and would rather her not get hit with the Ember-bat. I feel that, her changes are in the right direction, but she requires a lot of micromanagement (and certain conditions) to be successful, along with team-mates who don't actively gimp you (which has happened to me twice).

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

@[DE]Pablo

Saryn 4.0

1) Just totally revert spores to 2.0 with the proper cpu optimizations ( viral + toxin dots carriage )

2) Revert miasma to its corrosive dmg keep the range & duration buffs, and give it armor stripping capabilities on each tick ( Oberon's reckoning mechanic is the best you can mimic for Miasma)

3) Keep toxic lash as it is

4) Keep molt as it is so people can't run the ohsoScary molt turret which seems to have haunted your dreams lol ( Just kidding 😛 )

and call it a day, gg

Edited May 28, 2018 by arm4geddon-117