The inner contradictions of Saryn 3.5's spores

[Hamsterius]

16 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I think I've found to logical flaw in your argument. It doesn't necessitate that the ability's self-limitation isn't an inconvenience, but that you've made an assumption on the base of this that needs addressing before your logic can be processed through again;

Premise 1: the purpose of Spores is Damage, and arguably you're correct as Status means Damage in this case too.

Premise 2: The purpose of an Ability dealing damage is so the Warframe can kill.

From P1 and P2: The purpose of Saryn, the Warframe, using Spores, the Ability, is to kill.

So when it comes to the Spores ability being self-limiting, this is not inherently a problem. Because the ability is not the be-all and end-all function that kills enemies, the Warframe as a whole with Weapons, Abilities and Allies is what kills things.

Premise 3; if Spores kills an enemy, Spores don't spread.

Premise 4; if Spores don't spread, they don't maintain damage, or their upward climb of damage, so enemies cannot be killed as quickly or as easily.

Premise 5; if enemy is killed by any other means apart from Spores, they spread.

From P3, P4 and P5; The method of the Warframe in killing is to ensure that they and Allies are actively participating and spreading spores by killing enemies with all means aided, rather than inhibited by, the damage of Spores.

 

Conclusion 1: Spores must build damage in order for the Warframe and Allies to kill optimally.

Conclusion 2: In order to build damage, Spores must not kill, the Warframe and Allies must kill to ensure Spores continues to deal damage for longer for more optimal killing.

 

Does this make more sense? I mean, that's likely the more accurate translation of how DE is working with this premise anyway.

Does it make more sense? No, not really, though English is my third language so maybe I just don't understand you. It sounds like you're saying that if a soccer player shoots himself in the leg if he scores goals too fast than it's not contradictory to his purpose as a soccer player because he's not the be-all and end-all function for scoring goals and winning matches, but rather the soccer team as a whole is what scores goals and wins matches. The soccer player is still handicapping himself, even if the team steps in to help him limp around to victory.

Not to mention, how did you even reach the conclusion that it's not supposed to be a Saryner's main tool for killing? When you have frames like Nidus and Exalted-Users(Excal, Valkyr, Mesa, Ivara) walking around, it's clear that some frames are in fact supposed to be killing mainly through their abilities.
You also can't, as you seem to have suggested, infer that since spores struggle to be the main damage-dealers then they aren't supposed to be the main damage-dealers. If no frame ability was ever incompetent at doing what it's supposed to do, no frame would EVER get buffed in any patch.
To some extent, that's affirming the consequent. Define A as a frame ability/weapon/etc, if A isn't supposed to do B(say, killing enough to be the main killing-tool of a player), A will struggle to do B. That doesn't mean that if an A struggles to do B, then it's because it wasn't supposed to do B to begin with. Go to the Ember-fans and ask them if they think Ember is supposed to be what she currently is, I'll wait.

Now I personally don't know what DE's true intentions are with spores. What I do know is, that spores 2.0 were better as a debuff-tool and worse as a damage tool than 3.0/3.5. Their ticks did virtually nothing, but they spread twice the proc-types around and the procs they spread were more universally useful. (Corrosive is almost exclusively an anti-grineer tool since very very very few non-grineer enemies have armor, while viral and poison hurt all factions to some extent)
Spores 3.0/3.5 deal massively more damage but are worse debuffers. This sounds to me like they were trying at least to some extent to make Exalted-Spores, but I am not a mind reader.

I don't have a twitter or reddit so I don't know all the things the devs tell us. Maybe they explained themselves better somewhere else, I don't know. What I do know, is that if they were trying to make Exalted-Spores, then spores have issues, as my original post stated. If what you implied is correct and spores were only meant to be an assistance to other kill-tools rather than the stars of their own show, than spores 2.0 did that better and we're walking in the opposite direction of where we want to go. No matter what DE intended, it seems to me like they could have done better.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Hamsterius said:

It sounds like you're saying that if a soccer player shoots himself in the leg if he scores goals too fast than it's not contradictory to his purpose as a soccer player because he's not the be-all and end-all function for scoring goals and winning matches, but rather the soccer team as a whole is what scores goals and wins matches.

Then maybe I did explain it a little poorly. Because Saryn doesn't shoot herself in the foot, ever, but she does miss a kick once or twice, because there's more to scoring a goal than a single hit.

As far as a soccer player goes, that's too specific, it's more like saying Saryn is like a team of soccer players and the overall purpose is to maintain possession of the ball and score goals. The people with the most possession of the ball are traditionally the mid-fielders, they do the most running, ball handling, and they're even able to score if they need to. But the strikers traditionally score the goals, not the midfielders or the defenders.

Saryn's Spores are her mid-field, they handle most of the damage and actual interaction with the enemy, but it's her Lash that's supposed to actually do the killing, that's her strikers, Miasma is her defense and also handles the enemy damage a lot, while her Molt is the goal keeper and deals with saving her life ^^

Now. This has all been adjusted a little with the most recent update, your issues have been somewhat mitigated, go try her out again and come back to this.

What I can assure you, though, is that DE were not trying to create some kind of 'exalted Spores', that's a ridiculous notion based on the idea that damage is the only function that Saryn is designed around.