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Infinite Reviving makes the game too easy, make it harder by implementing cooldown.


IfritKajiTora

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9 minutes ago, Ijaa-Aden said:

Translation : "I don't care about casual gamers, make the game more hardcore than Dark Souls so we can fail and retry faster with PUs".

No everyone is as good as you. Don't be selfish.

It will not make the game HARDCORE like Dark Souls. Dark Souls have it's own bullsh*t mechanics, keep rolling rolling.
I'm not selfish. Be revived by others is already super casual. Adding to it cooldown will make a small difference, you just need to watch out then, that after dying and being revived by team mate you can't die second time in the next 90 seconds because you will die for real but you still have your own revives. So it's still casual. It's just adding some punishing mechanic. So you just can't die very often which happens sometimes, or that you are here dying, because you should not be here, you need to get better builds or learn more how to play.

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20 minutes ago, IfritKajiTora said:

Then there should be a reward for doing that.

Equipping one of Dragon keys gives you double Affinity. I could use that for more focus ^^. But still if I die, die and die someone will revive me so does it matter, if I limit my self or not?

Sure, but that wasn't your initial argument lol. Don't be surprised that people are angry at your terrible first suggestion.

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2 minutes ago, IfritKajiTora said:

It will not make the game HARDCORE like Dark Souls. Dark Souls have it's own bullsh*t mechanics, keep rolling rolling.
I'm not selfish. Be revived by others is already super casual. Adding to it cooldown will make a small difference, you just need to watch out then, that after dying and being revived by team mate you can't die second time in the next 90 seconds because you will die for real but you still have your own revives. So it's still casual. It's just adding some punishing mechanic.

If you want a punishing mechanic go on a rescue sortie with radiation hazard with level 100 enemies with a friend who'll keep shooting you and the hostage with a braton as soon as he'll get radiation proc and tell him to never revive you.

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)iQuedas said:

I'm totally in favor of that change, but since WF is an extremely, casual-driven game, I don't see it happening, ever.

Yup, but still hoping for some changes.

Just like melee 2.0 right now is for casuals by pressing melee button over and over again.

Melee 3.0 will be less casual, because for best DPS you will need to use charge attacks, because only they will get benefits from combo multipliers damage bonus. Also using different combos for different situations. Not just blindly without thinking pressing melee button.

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I see where OP is coming from and I do think their concern is warranted. However what you propose will not make the game more difficult because if you don't die, what's the point? But to humor that point and let's say DE has done an overhaul that does make the game more challenging, then I would be all for having another gander at the revive system. Maybe make it that reviving uses energy or something and that only Warframes can revive Warframes. Yes I know there's lots of issues/potential issues with that suggestion but we're not at that point yet so no point going into too much depth.

For the time being, Warframe is a bit all over the place and the last thing we need is for the game to be any more inaccessible than it already is. Although I personally don't have a problem either way. But I am not speaking on the behalf of others.

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Just now, IfritKajiTora said:

It will not make the game HARDCORE like Dark Souls. Dark Souls have it's own bullsh*t mechanics, keep rolling rolling.
I'm not selfish. Be revived by others is already super casual. Adding to it cooldown will make a small difference, you just need to watch out then, that after dying and being revived by team mate you can't die second time in the next 90 seconds because you will die for real but you still have your own revives. So it's still casual. It's just adding some punishing mechanic.

There's no reason for a game to be punishing, it doesn't bestow any lessons.
After 5 years of playing the game, you should realize that not everyone finds the game as easy as you do.
wEMGiJa.png

With that much time playing Frost, you should have learned to pop your bubbles as with this terrible and detrimental idea offering no alternative or reason for this gimping mechanism you trying to propose to have implementation for anything other than 'difficulty'.

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Are you telling me that you always do mission without ever dying a single time? I'd rather believe you didn't reach the end game purpose. Everyone has their own opinion, removing the revives on means most people will stress out even more the moment they die, especially in solo mode where you can't revive and you fail the mission immediately. But with the revives it shows people that they need to be aware of themselves.

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well... if the game was Space Dark Souls i could understand the point of Revive Cooldown... but the game is something to do that should be fun

Revive Cooldown is not fun so i would not do it...

If you want to punish players for bein careless you could make it that the bleedout time gets faster if they die more than 2 times in a row

but a cooldown on Revive itself seems no good

 

but that's just my opinion

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8 minutes ago, bungawunga said:

There's no reason for a game to be punishing, it doesn't bestow any lessons.
After 5 years of playing the game, you should realize that not everyone finds the game as easy as you do.
wEMGiJa.png

With that much time playing Frost, you should have learned to pop your bubbles as with this terrible and detrimental idea offering no alternative or reason for this gimping mechanism you trying to propose to have implementation for anything other than 'difficulty'.

Frost is my favouirte Warframe, and Ogris was my favourite weapon just like brakk and scindo prime. But for a long time I'm using different stuff, but still having these in the first place on my account informations, so there is a problem with statistics I think. That the new % usages grows a lot slower than before, for example you can see that some weapons have a lot more exp gained or 2x more kills than ogris but still having around 3.9% usage on them. I know that usge time in game is a different story than killing but still I have feelings like I used some other weapon more often than 3.9%.

My second favorite Warframe is Saryn and I see a lot of people complain about her survivability kit, where I have no problem with that, too much. 

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1 hour ago, IfritKajiTora said:

With arcanes you can have up to 6 revives, which mean you almost can't die, because there is squad that can revive you (without using your limited revives).

Or on high leveled content low leveled players can be carried through the whole mission by just reviving them over and over again.

Not to mention that you can go into Operator mode use Void mode and revive someone without any RISK.

Also it can be frustrating to revive people over and over again that are dying every 30 seconds. (You can just ignore them, but I feel bad then. And losing someone means less help in further mission. If you could not revive people over and over again then it's fine because it's a mechanic in game. While right now I feel like I have to revive them over and over again, which is frustrating for me.)


How to change it:
-Every time someone is revived that person get 90 seconds cooldown on revives. If he dies nobody can revive him "no bleed out timer", he have to use his limited revive.


For people who want me to unequip OverPowered stuff that I use:
Utilizing available and standard mechanics in games to accomplish a goal should always be considered a legitimate play style.
There is no reason to purposely put myself at a disadvantage if the game offers and easier solution.
If a mechanic is in the game then it is the developers intention for it be used in one way or another and I will not limit myself strictly because the methods I use are considered "cheap".
About revive mechanic in game, it's a different story, because it's a mechanic in game and I'm using it all the time, but it's make the game just too easy, making us immortal. So I hoping for changing that.

I have to admit that I cannot follow your logic here.

If the goal is to have more of a challenge, then I do not see how this idea helps.

If the goal is to mess with players that

  • get stuck in maps in ways that /unstuck does not help
  • or cannot use abilities/melee/get animation locked (where spending a revive can reset things),
  • or lose their Sentinel (as the only way to gain it back now is to waste a Revive),

Then sure, I can see why this particular idea is being considered for Warframe.

I have experience with other games like ESO, for example, that uses an effectively Infinite number of Soul Gems (that is practically limited by how many Gems you and other players carry in their inventory) as a means to revive (granted you also have a cooldown of being a Ghost for some seconds and you have a penalty of having to repair your equipment [that gets durability reduced for every Revive spent], but that is part of the that game). However that would also beg the question do you want something like that in Warframe, some Gear Durability stat that is tied to Revives? Or some other price for this feature? Otherwise what would be the point to see this in Warframe?

At any rate, this just feels like a can of Worms that would just make the game more frustrating, as it would not be adding any meaningful challenge, if all that happens is a punitive cooldown is added.

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Just dont revive them if they keep dying every 30 seconds, they will eventually run out.

Also, I have had instances where I have been downed before, right after being revived and the game wouldnt put me on bleedout, just revive. I dont know if that is a bug or intended, but I thought we already had something like this in some manner.

But no. It isnt gonna happen. As iQuedas just said. Inclusion is a pain to live with these days. Everything has to be welcoming and soft and cuddly to everyone. If you do terrible dont worry, it's fine. It's not like you are being a pain to your squaddies or anything, being somewhere you clearly arent ready for yet.

 

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You do realize that instead of making players make better builds or not bring R0 frames to high-level missions, they will just start running away and hiding in the middle of battle after their first revive? This will cause the game to be slower, and reduce overall enjoyment of the game.

Also, you will see no one using self-damaging weapons anywhere at any time, except possibly in Solo where lag and teammates/companions aren't there to get you blown up.

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3 minutes ago, o.0- said:

If the goal is to mess with players that

  • get stuck in maps in ways that /unstuck does not help
  • or cannot use abilities/melee/get animation locked (where spending a revive can reset things),
  • or lose their Sentinel (as the only way to gain it back now is to waste a Revive),

Those are a rare situations. And are bugs. This should not have anything to do with revive system, in the meaning that because of these bugs, revives should not be changed.

If the bug occur you can still die once 90 seconds. Nothing bad will happen.

If you die twice in 90 seconds you get punished, you have to use your limited revive. So be careful to get yourself to bleedout state too often.

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4 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Also, you will see no one using self-damaging weapons anywhere at any time, except possibly in Solo where lag and teammates/companions aren't there to get you blown up.

For some times probably yes. But self damage should be changed too.

If you hit yourself with self damaging weapon you can lose max of 75% of your health you have at the moment. And have self damage death status for 90 seconds, so if you hit yourself again you will start to bleed out.

That's just a second change to fix the problem with that. So by mistake you can hit yourself with self damaging weapon in small punishment once every 90 seconds.

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There was already a system to penalize you and you circumvented it with the resources available to you.  That is why they were there in the first place.  If you add more difficulty in these systems, then you will likely just circumvent those as well.

Examples:

1. Cooldown for being downed:  Players will switch to a passive play style, hiding or employing cheap tactics until the counter runs out and they can be revived again.

2. Decrease the number of revives available:  New players suffer dramatically; old players will use cheap tactics and arcanes to circumvent the mechanic.

3. Instadeath on knockdown:  Same as above.

In the case of what you are asking for, it will typically have a traumatic result for new players, while having little to effect on older players. 

I do have a suggestion though:

The Dark Sectors:  A void tainted perversion of the system.  Upon clearing the last node in the star map, a special relay will appear leading to the Dark Sectors.  In it, the star map is covered back up.  It is worked though backward starting from the void nodes.  Enemies start at level 40 and will be level 200 at the last nodes which are on Earth.  More mastery is gained in this mode, and the relays drop high level items and quests.  The tiles themselves are all mirrored, colors are skewed in the maps (mars is more red orange, including the sky, Earth is covered in mist and visibility is low, Uranus is darker with water refractions lighting the tile, Eris sick with poisonous clouds).  The planets have special characteristics that are more intense than their real world counter parts: Eris is poisonous and will constantly proc you with toxin effects; Mars is freezing, airless, bombarded by radiation, which halves your shields, constantly ticks away your health, and radiation procs you if you are out in the open for three seconds or more; Uranus is claustrophobic and dark, the pressure as you go deeper will weaken your armor, the blackness hides enemies waiting to ambush you.  There is a ton of interesting elements that you could use.  Now for the part you have been waiting for:  Each planet away from Earth you get, the less lives you have available, until you have only one. In the Dark Sector, your bleedout timer is 5 seconds base.  The mortality of this area is insane and will take everything you've got including using mods and arcanes to mitigate environmental hazards versus the significantly harder enemy content.  All enemies are void reflections and if there were resources left over for it, add some interesting new void demons as an enemy.  Also the relays are warzones for clans to contest over like in the old days.  

True Nightmare Mode:  A harder version of nightmare missions.  In them you have better nightmare mods intended for high rank players as rewards and resources dropped are increased dramatically.  Once they are played(failing counts a play), you can not play them again until they refresh six hours later, there is one active on each planet at any given time.  Each nightmare mission calculates for a plethora of disadvantages and will always have only one life.  You die, you are expelled from the mission and sent back to your orbiter.  They will always have two mission objectives and are timed based on the average amount of time players in the game complete these in normal circumstances.  So a mission might be a sabotage/capture with vampire, no shields, eximus stronghold, five minute timer, and one life.  The timer always starts after you've left the first room.  Dude to the tight time limit, the players will have to formulate a plan to split up and execute the mission.  One player is a Loki and decides to bee line to the capture target, the other three try and tackle the sabotage.  Another example is a rescue/spy with pain(can't use operator), high alert(alarms speed up the timer), chaos(all enemies of the same type look the same, like bombards and lancers), ten minute timer, and one life.  The players deliberate in the safe room, they decide to send one player to each vault, and one lone Tenno to tackle the rescue.  This is a stealth mission and if the alarms get triggered the ten minute time will run down faster until they can hack it (maybe you can only hack it three times...?).  This would really challenge some of the best players in Warframe.

Deep Void:  This is a mission so deep into the void that your Warframe can't survive there.  The only thing that can is your Operator.  This would be a special mission with void demons as the faction within.  It is an endless "tower" that descends deeper and deeper.  Your progress is saved every ten floors where you can reenter at that point and you receive one time rewards for getting there.  Rewards are anything from cosmetics(bragging rights), special amp parts unlocked through Onnko, Operator and amp arcanes, to peculiar mods.  There is also a leader board for those who have delved the deepest.  The way it is set up is there is a Champion, and three squires.  The Champion is the host, the squires are other players, the whole team is expelled from the void if the Champion dies, the squires and die, but each time they do it takes a cumulative second to respawn.  The Champion is the only one who progresses in the tower and get the milestone rewards.  The squires, however, get an entirely different set of rewards that repeat as many times as they play them, with huge payouts upon reaching a tenth floor.  Things like credits, large amounts of resources, special mod sets, and a cosmetic that details the deepest they have squired (can't skip ahead though, you have to do 1-10 to get the first marking before you can get the 141-150 markings)

In summary, you issue isn't with the systems the game gives you, but the fact that you have gotten too good to be challenged by the game's content.    
 

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il y a une heure, IfritKajiTora a dit :

No.
Utilizing available and standard mechanics in games to accomplish a goal should always be considered a legitimate play style.
There is no reason to purposely put myself at a disadvantage if the game offers and easier solution.
If a mechanic is in the game then it is the developers intention for it be used in one way or another and I will not limit myself strictly because the methods I use are considered "cheap".

So you think spin-2-win, Quake Banshee, WoF Ember, Spore-tower Saryn and other types of spam are "the developper's intention"? That DE wanted those things to be (ab)used like they were (and still are for some)? You seriously think that DE wanted us to simply not play the game by using cheesy gimmicks?

You think 4+revives are a problem, but not actualy playing the game is fine for you?

Here's a little advice for ya: If you cheese the game, don't expect a challenge. By cheesing, you decide to ruin all the challenges this game has to offer. It's not the games fault, nor the Dev's. It's yours, and nerfing revives won't fix yourself.

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1 hour ago, IfritKajiTora said:

I just want to make game little more harder

Please tell me how your idea here is going to achieve that?
Adding a CD to revives, or even removing them entirely won't make this game any harder.

Why?
You stated the main reason right here:

1 hour ago, IfritKajiTora said:

I already die rarely

Most vets rarely die.
I can go through a sortie and a few tridolon hunts and not go down a single time the entire day.

So please tell me:
How would this idea make the game harder?
How would this idea make the game more challenging?
How would this idea make the game more entertaining?

The answer is that it wont.
It would just be punishing for no real reason.
Especially to newer players.  Vets wouldn't be touched at all by this idea and wouldn't notice. New players on the other hand that don't have any cheese and have a hard time clearing the lower levels due to lack of mods?  They'll just be unfairly punished for absolutely no reason, and do you honestly think that it will do the game any good to alienate new players?

Because contray what you seem to think punishing does not equal hard/challenging.

Your idea here offers absolutely nothing to the game.  Not a single benefit would come from this.

So why should DE implement it?

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While I don't agree with the hard cooldown on revives, I can sort of understand the thinking process of OP--a lot of co-op games try to work around the potentially unlimited revives by other players in different ways. Borderlands 2 has a soft cap on how many times you can get revived in an encounter by speeding up the bleedout timer, Payday 2 has a hard cap & health reduction penalty until you heal with AAAAAAAAAAAUUUGGGGH I NEEEEEEEEEED; Vermintide follows the same hard cap & health penalty iirc. 

I'm not against having some kind of (preferably timed) penalty related to revives, but I want to think of something that wouldn't screw over newbies too much (the early difficulty is brutal as it is) while still having an impact for players with more experience and gear. Maybe "early" planets can have the current penalty-free revives, and higher level zones & Sorties & Nightmare missions & Fissure missions etc could have their own penalties? For example, the longer you go in Fissure endless, you'd get the usual bonus Relics and exp/resource boosters, but also a temporary max hp penalty upon revive. 

But considering the fact that some frames might as well be invincible *cough*invisibility*cough* I don't think revive penalties are going to change much. Don't get me wrong, I understand why someone would think potentially infinite & risk-free revives warrant changes. But changing revives before we change frames and non-existent balance won't bring your desired outcome, not even close. 

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7 minutes ago, Aisu9 said:

Or... just add revive system when you can spend plat to buy revive ? Soooooooo much better :3

There's a reason that 4 revives a day/per frame got removed.
This would be even worse.

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