Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?

[Trekiros]

It's become apparent that the Trinity nuke build, made possible by the re-release of the Aviator mod with Plains of Eidolon, is going to get nerfed soon. I feel like there's already a bit of a consensus that this would be a good thing, but there's not really a consensus on what exactly that nerf should be. Let's talk about the different options.

I've only discovered this build a couple weeks ago and I've been abusing loving it, so my remarks will have the following opinion behind them: the nuke link build should still be a thing after the nerf, just a lot less powerful, especially in sanctuary onslaught. It shouldn't be nerfed to the point where it doesn't exist anymore. Cause you know... It's fun.

• 1 - Ideas that I think would be bad

-Instead of dealing damage based on the damage you were supposed to receive, Link deals damage based on the damage you actually received.

Why I think it's bad: Warframes have a lot less HP than their enemies. It's the reason we don't think of Nyx as a DPS, but as a CC frame, and why dojo duels are ridiculous. With this change, we'd only be able to deal damage up to what Trinity can handle... Which is around 2k. This would make the build hardly even usable in lvl 10 missions.

 

-Self damage doesn't get linked, like with Nyx's absorb, or Octavia's Mallet

Why I think it's bad: well that straight up kills the build, no questions asked.

 

• 2 - Ideas that I think would work

-Make all damage reduction mods/abilities multiplicative instead of additive

There is probably some dank magic at play anyway, because Aviator's 40% + Diamond Skin's 45% do not amount to a 100% damage reduction in the first place. I'm guessing they are additive with each other but also with Link's damage reduction? If that's the case, you could just make them additive with each other but make Link multiplicative, for a more tame version of this nerf.

This way, instead of reaching 100% damage reduction, Trinity would take 0.6 (aviator) * 0.55 (diamond skin) * 0.25 (link) * 0.25 (blessing) = 0.02 times the damage.

(Or with only Link being made multiplicative, 0.15 (aviator + diamond skin) * 0.25 (link) * 0.25 (blessing) = 0.01 times the damage)

With my current build, each castana deals 13.5k radiation damage (uncheck the multishot multiplier to see for yourself). I can stick 5 of them to the ground, for a total of 67.5k damage. 2% of that damage would amount to 1350 damage. A Trinity Prime with maxed Redirection has 1110 shield. This works out: I won't one-shot myself, and that's all that really matters.

So here's what I believe would happen. Firstly, in order to get 75% damage reduction from both Link and Blessing, we'd need to get rid of Overextended, so that's already a big nerf to the nuke-potential of this build in and of itself. Trinity would need to get closer and actually move her pretty lobster butt from the center of the tile if she wants to achieve anything.

The build would require a lot more energy than it currently does, with a need to maintain both Link and Blessing active at all time and to heal after each detonation. But with Overextended gone, Energy Vampire would grant us more energy, so I think it would be manageable, if a bit stressful. We could also use Rage, since we're actually taking damage.

You could, however, decide exactly how stressful that new version of the build needs to be, by simply tweaking the damage reduction numbers on Aviator and Diamond Skin (and let's not forget Agility Drift). Higher damage reduction = less stressful.

 

-Make all castanas detonate simultaneously

A couple updates back, detonate-type weapons (so the castanas, as well as the Penta series and the Kulstar) were updated so that their explosions would cascade. It's hardly noticeable on the castanas, but it's the reason why a single detonation can kill more than three opponents: if the first castana kills the three linked enemies, Link will seek out the next three before the next detonation in the sequence. In total, you can kill up to 15 enemies in a single jump (3 per castana).

Reverting this change would singlehandedly turn the castanas build from a nuke build to a real good DPS build with no real nuking power. It would still be just as viable in low density missions, but its power would be reduced in Sanctuary Onslaught where it matters most.

1 jump, 3 dead enemies. 6 if you got that sweet sweet tech skill. It's still a lot better than 15 for sure.

 

-Link only tethers to opponents within line of sight

This is a solution that's been used to nerf nuke frames like Excalibur in the past and it has worked well. 

It also has the benefit of being a nerf that would specifically affect her sanctuary onslaught performance more than her performance in other mission types.

 

-Instead of dealing the damage to each enemy, Link spreads it between the linked enemies

This cuts the damage by a factor of 3, which is enough to pull Trinity from OP to good.

She wouldn't be as obvious a choice for end-game missions, and you could alway play a high range build on Rhino, Ember, Equinox and a bunch of others to achieve the same results in low level missions.

 

 

So what about you? What changes would you be okay with? What changes would you not be okay with?

Edited May 30, 2018 by Trekiros
added a suggestion by one of the commenters + one about spreading the damage

[sixmille]

Self damage cannot be channeled through link. First it gets rid of the problem forever, then it's consistent with the rest of the game. Rhino and harrow can't use self damage to buff their abilities so the fact that trinity can do that is very inconsistent. There's no need to nerf the castanas either, the fact that it's cascading means it's killing more stuff.

[Emulad0or]

I like to play my Trinity with a link melee build. This nuke link build worries me that DE may neft the ability in general instead of only the self damage. Link should not redirect self damage, this is all the balance that is necessary

[Bouldershoulder]

Stop... poking.. Trinity.

[EndermanBeast]

Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?

 

no thanks.

[EvilChaosKnight]

2 minutes ago, EndermanBeast said:

Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?

 

no thanks.

My first reaction as well.
I have 2 better suggestions:
1. Stop nerfing damn Trinity already.
2. Stop balancing frames around a single game mode.

[Klavinmour]

It's easy. I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Make Trinity IMMUNE TO SELF DAMAGE WHILE LINK IS ACTIVE.

This stops Nuke Trinity.
And at the same time BUFFS Trinity allowing Tonkor fans to rejoice and take up their favourite weapon again.
You'll also see a rise in LENZ users, and other weapons that do self damage.

[TrinityPrime]

52 minutes ago, Trekiros said:

It's become apparent There is probably some dank magic at play anyway, because Aviator's 40% + Diamond Skin's 45% do not amount to a 100% damage reduction in the first place.

Ya, it's a problem of the mods also stacking with damage 2.0 mechanics, specifically with 25% radiation resist vs tenno shields thus granting the radiation immunity. Works with any frame that has shields. This additive stacking has nothing to do with link or bless which are still multiplicative.

Aviator and the other resist mods should prob be fixed so this doesn't happen and to be consistent with all the other damage resist mechanics being multiplicative.

Edited May 29, 2018 by TrinityPrime

[LascarCapable]

Is that build really such an issue tbh ? Not that I am complaining, but as far as I can remember, it's not THAT effective.

Welp, Trinity needs some kind of rework IMO anyway.

[Trekiros]

il y a 15 minutes, D20 a dit :

Is that build really such an issue tbh ? Not that I am complaining, but as far as I can remember, it's not THAT effective.

Welp, Trinity needs some kind of rework IMO anyway.

If that answers your question, if I only ever use it, I get 2k kills in 8 tiles of regular Sanctuary Onslaught. I often got the same amount of damage as the Saryn 3.0 (not 3.5) if one was in my squad.

What I do now is that I just use it while the focus gain is active, and switch to another weapon during the rest of the duration of the tile. That way, I'm being helpful to my squad, giving them sometimes up to 10k focus, while not taking away from their fun too much.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Trekiros

[(PSN)lhbuch]

Im not against reworks, in fact they are a tool to keep things fresh.

The problem is that a lot of reworks turn fun things into absolute garbage. 

Community reaction to any sign of rework is already an example, every time a rework is announced, people come to the forums to cry even before it is released.

But you cant blame them, maybe they will never press link again...

[Leqesai]

It's hilarious to see how many people are arguing for this to not be fixed.

 

It is obviously exploitive gameplay.

There is only one solution to this. Stop link from generating damage from self damage sources. The funniest thing is, I thought this change was already implemented like a year and a half ago.

 

It makes no sense that the healer frame can hurt herself to create a giant bomb. Especially when it's use falls right into that "stand around and do nothing" style of gameplay that the devs disilike.

[Trekiros]

il y a une heure, Leqesai a dit :

It's hilarious to see how many people are arguing for this to not be fixed. It is obviously exploitive gameplay. There is only one solution to this.

You say exploitive and see it in a negative light, I say emergent and view it as a positive thing. It's accidental, unintentional, whatever you call it. That's the reason it's OP (and it is) - you can't balance around the unexpected. But it's still content at the end of the day. It's still a build that didn't exist before, and now does.

It was unexpected before, but not anymore - we now know about it, and we can now take it into account and balance it. So when I see people like you charge in with black-and-white statements like "there is only one solution to this", that sounds a lot like "let's remove content from the game" to me. I'm fine with nerfing an OP build, not with removing build variety altogether from the game.

So no, there isn't just one solution to this. I've suggested at least 2 others and I'm just one guy.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Trekiros

[Lawmonark]

Why? It is strong... sure.

But it is a one trick pony. It gets stuck on "heavy enemies" and they cant be killed easy.

 

She is currently good in index and Onslaught. 

There will always be a "best tool for the job".... do we go around dulling them all?

 

Most of the people that are crying for a nerf.... have not used this link set up. 

[ZodiacShinryu]

2 hours ago, Trekiros said:

You say exploitive and see it in a negative light, I say emergent and view it as a positive thing. It's accidental, unintentional, whatever you call it. That's the reason it's OP (and it is) - you can't balance around the unexpected. But it's still content at the end of the day. It's still a build that didn't exist before, and now does.

It was unexpected before, but not anymore - we now know about it, and we can now take it into account and balance it. So when I see people like you charge in with black-and-white statements like "there is only one solution to this", that sounds a lot like "let's remove content from the game" to me. I'm fine with nerfing an OP build, not with removing build variety altogether from the game.

So no, there isn't just one solution to this. I've suggested at least 2 others and I'm just one guy.

You can view it however you like but dressing up flaws doesn't make them any less of a flaws. The question is whether it is in the scope of DE's design because it is clearly unintended. Trinity was designed as a support (one of the purest) and Link's (or perhaps its better to say improper damage calculations) exploit is thee exyreme opposite of that. Honestly that is really enough reason to scale it back because she isn't even playing her role anymore. Consistency is another being that nearly all abilities (and mod perks) that could benefit from self-damage have been deliberately set up to not interact with it (the only exception I can think of is Chroma's Vex Armor which should also not benefit from self-damage; this is an excellent opportunity for DE to clean up everything). The fact that right now it's effectiveness is directly tied to the strength of your weapon is definitely setting off alarms.  So there is 3 likely things that could happen:

1. They remove self-damage interactions or perhaps they roll a immune to self-damage to her passive.
2. They fix the DR calculations of mods or cap contributions.
3. They add limits based on LoS.

2 hours ago, Krhymez said:

Why? It is strong... sure.

But it is a one trick pony. It gets stuck on "heavy enemies" and they cant be killed easy.

 

She is currently good in index and Onslaught. 

There will always be a "best tool for the job".... do we go around dulling them all?

 

Most of the people that are crying for a nerf.... have not used this link set up. 

What is a "heavy enemy"? Unless you can't Link them (or they are really resistant to radiation as the preferred damage type; or maybe ancient disruptor auras) I don't know what a heavy would be. Abating Link with 225% power strength will remove all armor (if you want bonus damage for exploiting armor resistances you could get as close to that number as possible) on link targets or the normal Corrosive Projection stacking. Since you are basically diverting our own broken weapon scaling it is as effective as just shooting enemies without the actual need to see them (auto-aim infinite rail cannon?). She can handle all current set content pretty easily and I witnessed Sortie 3 corpus and grineer Defense missions with Link Trinity being some of the top contributors even with the likes of Saryn, Banshee and Mesa. So just the index and onslaught is an understatement.

[Leqesai]

7 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

You can view it however you like but dressing up flaws doesn't make them any less of a flaws. The question is whether it is in the scope of DE's design because it is clearly unintended. Trinity was designed as a support (one of the purest) and Link's (or perhaps its better to say improper damage calculations) exploit is thee exyreme opposite of that. Honestly that is really enough reason to scale it back because she isn't even playing her role anymore. Consistency is another being that nearly all abilities (and mod perks) that could benefit from self-damage have been deliberately set up to not interact with it (the only exception I can think of is Chroma's Vex Armor which should also not benefit from self-damage; this is an excellent opportunity for DE to clean up everything). The fact that right now it's effectiveness is directly tied to the strength of your weapon is definitely setting off alarms.  So there is 3 likely things that could happen:

1. They remove self-damage interactions or perhaps they roll a immune to self-damage to her passive.
2. They fix the DR calculations of mods or cap contributions.
3. They add limits based on LoS.

What is a "heavy enemy"? Unless you can't Link them (or they are really resistant to radiation as the preferred damage type; or maybe ancient disruptor auras) I don't know what a heavy would be. Abating Link with 225% power strength will remove all armor (if you want bonus damage for exploiting armor resistances you could get as close to that number as possible) on link targets or the normal Corrosive Projection stacking. Since you are basically diverting our own broken weapon scaling it is as effective as just shooting enemies without the actual need to see them (auto-aim infinite rail cannon?). She can handle all current set content pretty easily and I witnessed Sortie 3 corpus and grineer Defense missions with Link Trinity being some of the top contributors even with the likes of Saryn, Banshee and Mesa. So just the index and onslaught is an understatement.

 

This, quite simply, is why this is exploitative. Trinity should not be a better DPS frame than the dedicated DPS frames. 

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

15 hours ago, Bouldershoulder said:

Stop... poking.. Trinity.

things need to be poked, and will get poked. we learn by poking things. things into things.

[Trekiros]

Il y a 11 heures, ZodiacShinryu a dit :

They add limits based on LoS.

Added that suggestion, thanks

[XaoGarrent]

I saw a volt out damaging my Saryn for the first 7 rounds of ESO today, better nerf that too.

[EinheriarJudith]

9 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I saw a volt out damaging my Saryn for the first 7 rounds of ESO today, better nerf that too.

difference is volt is a DPS frame and trinity is not. stop being ridiculous.

[XaoGarrent]

26 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

difference is volt is a DPS frame and trinity is not. stop being ridiculous.

Volt has one ability that does damage (no, his 1 is a glorified stun), and according to the community everyone used it for CC before its damage was buffed. It's still one of the most powerful wide area CC abilities in the game, ergo, he's not a damage frame either. Stop being ridiculous.

You don't realize this but you're engaging in a version of the no true scotsman fallacy, and I can play that game way better than you can. Purity spirals are easy.

Edited May 30, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[GeoffFromAccounting]

12 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Volt has one ability that does damage (no, his 1 is a glorified stun), and according to the community everyone used it for CC before its damage was buffed. It's still one of the most powerful wide area CC abilities in the game, ergo, he's not a damage frame either. Stop being ridiculous.

You don't realize this but you're engaging in a version of the no true scotsman fallacy, and I can play that game way better than you can. Purity spirals are easy.

Shock: used for CC
Speed: used for mobility and added DPS (faster attack speed/reload speed)
Electric Shield: used for defence and buffing damage
Discharge: used for killing things

3 out of the 4 abilities Volt has have a way of increasing team damage output and for outright just doing damage. Sounds like a damage dealing frame to me.

[XaoGarrent]

7 minutes ago, GeoffFromAccounting said:

Shock: used for CC
Speed: used for mobility and added DPS (faster attack speed/reload speed)
Electric Shield: used for defence and buffing damage
Discharge: used for killing things

3 out of the 4 abilities Volt has have a way of increasing team damage output and for outright just doing damage. Sounds like a damage dealing frame to me.

Nope, all those abilities also effect his teammates. He's a buffer and crowd control, he doesn't need a wide area nuke that does massive DPS on top of this.

Do note that I don't actually want Volt nerfed, I'm just applying the nerf herder mentality and logic consistently to all frames. Double standards are bad, m'kay.

EDIT: Also, I would like to contextualize all this by making it clear that I warned everyone that the trinity nerf calls were coming before the build even had entered the greater public consciousness. I predicted this, and I predict there's much, much more to come, with Volt not being terribly far down the road. Those of you defending Volt here will find yourself defending Volt far, far more in the future.

"First they came for Ember, but I did not speak out, as I was not an Ember main..."

Edited May 30, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[GeoffFromAccounting]

3 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Nope, all those abilities also effect his teammates. He's a buffer and crowd control, he doesn't need a wide area nuke that does massive DPS on top of this.

Do note that I don't actually want Volt nerfed, I'm just applying the nerf herder mentality and logic consistently to all frames. Double standards are bad, m'kay.

One would maybe say a, damage, buffer. Y'know, something that actually improves damage. Which is something you're saying he doesn't do. The Discharge is just the main straight up damage.

If you're gonna apply that logic, apply it to a frame that it makes sense to apply it to, i.e a frame that doesn't deal damage or improve damage

[EinheriarJudith]

6 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Nope, all those abilities also effect his teammates. He's a buffer and crowd control, he doesn't need a wide area nuke that does massive DPS on top of this.

Do note that I don't actually want Volt nerfed, I'm just applying the nerf herder mentality and logic consistently to all frames. Double standards are bad, m'kay.

you seem to be confused. a frame doesnt need wide area damage to be a damage frame. look at nidus, look at mesa, look at valkyr, volt is definitely a dps frame.