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Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?


Trekiros
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1 minute ago, GeoffFromAccounting said:

One would maybe say a, damage, buffer. Y'know, something that actually improves damage. Which is something you're saying he doesn't do. The Discharge is just the main straight up damage.

If you're gonna apply that logic, apply it to a frame that it makes sense to apply it to, i.e a frame that doesn't deal damage or improve damage

Irrelevant distinction, the fact he works as a force multiplier for his other three teammates *on top* of having large amounts of direct damage actually works against your argument as it demonstrates in what way his design is overpowered. Buffing and dealing damage directly are two different roles, Volt does too much damage for what is, based on his other three skills, a support frame.

There is actually a very strong argument you can use to defeat this, but it would mean abdicating Trinity in the process.

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2 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Irrelevant distinction, the fact he works as a force multiplier for his other three teammates *on top* of having large amounts of direct damage actually works against your argument as it demonstrates in what way his design is overpowered. Buffing and dealing damage directly are two different roles, Volt does too much damage for what is, based on his other three skills, a support frame.

There is actually a very strong argument you can use to defeat this, but it would mean abdicating Trinity in the process.

with your logic ember (who is a damage buffer/DoT) is not a dps frame though... we know she is.

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5 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

you seem to be confused. a frame doesnt need wide area damage to be a damage frame. look at nidus, look at mesa, look at valkyr, volt is definitely a dps frame.

Mesa's peacemaker is extremely wide area. Nidus also has fairly strong AoE.

With that said, you have a point, Mesa and Nidus have incredibly overcrowded kits and should be next to get nerfed after Volt. Nidus is one of the strongest crowd control and tank frames in the game, his damage scaling should be severely nerfed. Mesa doesn't need as much of a nerf, but her survivability is too high, her shield should be reworked into something else.

I'd even go as far as to say you've presented a fairly sensible order for these frames to be nerfed in! Good job. Just find a place for Saryn in there somewhere and I think we've mostly completed this nerf rotation.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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Just now, XaoGarrent said:

Mesa's peacemaker is extremely wide area. Nidus also has fairly strong AoE.

With that said, you have a point, Mesa and Nidus have incredibly overcrowded kits and should be next to get nerfed after Volt. Nidus is one of the strongest crowd control and tank frames in the game, his damage scaling should be severely nerfed. Mesa doesn't need as much of a nerf, but her suitability is too high, her shield should be reworked into something else.

I'd even go as far as to say you've presented a fairly sensible order for these frames to be nerfed in! Good job. Just find a place for Saryn in there somewhere and I think we've mostly completed this nerf rotation.

its about as wide area as any gun.

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1 minute ago, XaoGarrent said:

Irrelevant distinction, the fact he works as a force multiplier for his other three teammates *on top* of having large amounts of direct damage actually works against your argument as it demonstrates in what way his design is overpowered. Buffing and dealing damage directly are two different roles, Volt does too much damage for what is, based on his other three skills, a support frame.

Or perhaps Volt is meant to be a damage frame, considering his description states "This is a high-damage Warframe." I don't know about you, but that's maybe a hint that he's designed for damage, whether it be buffing it or dealing it. Nothing in his description even hints towards him being a support or crowd control frame, and we all know how much DE love to stick to their description (considering the amount of damage buffs Volt has received, and the times that Scott(?) has said that Volt is not intended as a CC frame). Also, last I checked, damage buffs don't exactly count under "support" simply because they don't keep allies alive.

5 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

There is actually a very strong argument you can use to defeat this, but it would mean abdicating Trinity in the process.

I've actually got nothing against support style frames being able to kill things, it's why Harrow is my favourite support frame, but when the support can compete with the likes of dedicated DPS frames, then I have a slight issue.

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Just now, EinheriarJudith said:

the funny part is you think you can kill enemies in back of you with it without aiming. please do go on about its wide area.

In their defence, Peacemaker does have a huge AoE, it's just a conal AoE in the direction your pointed rather than a PbAoE like other abilities. Peacemaker can and absolutely will destroy anything it has line of sight on that's on your screen, and that's only slightly hampered by negative range mods

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1 minute ago, GeoffFromAccounting said:

In their defence, Peacemaker does have a huge AoE, it's just a conal AoE in the direction your pointed rather than a PbAoE like other abilities. Peacemaker can and absolutely will destroy anything it has line of sight on that's on your screen, and that's only slightly hampered by negative range mods

in front of you for a couple of seconds is not the same as in a 360 degree radius 30m out. you can do what she does with guns no gun can do maim does which is wide area.

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2 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

in front of you for a couple of seconds is not the same as in a 360 degree radius 30m out. you can do what she does with guns no gun can do maim does which is wide area.

All you have to do is spin your mouse around and suddenly enough you get 360 degree coverage at 50m out. You absolutely cannot do what Mesa does with just regular guns, I'd like to see what gun does 5-10k+ damage per shot with auto aim, a high rate of fire, and huge coverage. No seriously, I'll wait.

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2 minutes ago, GeoffFromAccounting said:

All you have to do is spin your mouse around and suddenly enough you get 360 degree coverage at 50m out. You absolutely cannot do what Mesa does with just regular guns, I'd like to see what gun does 5-10k+ damage per shot with auto aim, a high rate of fire, and huge coverage. No seriously, I'll wait.

well guns like amprex exist which chainlink  as long as there are enemies. could also spin around and use arca plasmor. also spinning around is pretty unreliable way to use peacemaker since it needs things to actually be in its firing reticle but ok.

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il y a 26 minutes, GeoffFromAccounting a dit :

I've actually got nothing against support style frames being able to kill things, it's why Harrow is my favourite support frame, but when the support can compete with the likes of dedicated DPS frames, then I have a slight issue.

my-man.gif

Btw a lot of people seem to think that this is a useless discussion because "Trinity should not get a link nerf"

Well regardless of the fact that you think she shouldn't, she most probably will: Pablo called that build cheese and Pablo isn't exactly known for being a fan of cheese. So those of you who, like me, enjoy playing this cheesy build would probably benefit from talking about alternate solutions which do not involve just removing the build from the game entirely.

Think of it this way if it helps: in the event Trin gets a Link nerf, what do you reckon that nerf should be in order to not go too far?

Edited by Trekiros
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6 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

well guns like amprex exist which chainlink  as long as there are enemies. could also spin around and use arca plasmor. also spinning around is pretty unreliable way to use peacemaker since it needs things to actually be in its firing reticle but ok.

Amprex doesn't have the 50m range that Peacemaker does, Plasmor is painfully slow, and Peacemaker fires quickly enough that spinning your reticule at just the right speed will allow it to instantly shoot at whatever is in range. You're arguing about my favourite frame here, I think I have a slight idea on how well Peacemaker works.

But this is getting off topic, this is about Trinity + Castanas and not Mesa

Edited by GeoffFromAccounting
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All I have to say is it is all working as intended, the issue is the fact some mods are active whilst others are multiplitive.

Best "Fix" that won't brake any think out side of a very exact combo would be a small change to link. Prevent overflow damage from passing on apon a changed of target with out reducing the damage reduction or armor stripping effect of having a active link.

My proposed change won't stop tin nuke at all, however it will slow it down a tad bit bringing it's time to kill it in to better alignment with other high damage output meta builds.

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I'm pretty sure Volt will be next on the nerf list because he is way most useful than Saryn in the current end game. With minimal build he can solo ESO easily with DPS equivalent to Saryn, ad he can provide too much utility in team.

Everyone who did tridolon knew how core is Volt (below trinity) in dealing more DPS, even more so than Harrow/Chroma.

That being said, I would think the problem with trinity isn't really how she can do wide map nuke easily, but more of a you have nothing else to do except doing wide map nuke to farm for most people. Imagine if hunting boss/doing spy/finding cache giving much more affinity/reward than the endless mode now, you will suddenly find 90% lesser people complaining about nuke.

Edited by MiraClena
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On 2018-05-29 at 7:32 AM, EvilChaosKnight said:

My first reaction as well.
I have 2 better suggestions:
1. Stop nerfing damn Trinity already.
2. Stop balancing frames around a single game mode.

But if we don't have to all the people crying then the casuals might feel sad!  The world might end!

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Link-self damage builds have been around for years!

The 1st world record defense 300 waves (old enemy scale) was? >> 3 trinity and a frost (2 link builds and a EV and frost bubble)

Currently, the biggest issue reminds me of the synoid gammacor...someone slaps the build on Utube  and then every man and his dog runs around using it making all the cry babies winge about not being #1 on kills.......so DE always oil the squeaky wheel and nerf the crap out of it....NO FUN ALLOWED!

 

Personally I use this stratt, but a little more team play in mind. I EV and bless for early zones/waves and link for self defense, but if my team lacks KPS/DPS I pull out the jump cheese and bring us back to winning. Some players have even thanked me for it....I bet they weren't cry babies thou.

 

How to fix it without nerfing it? Not sure if this would work, but worth a shot.

1: Make link LoS...and that alone will help balance it to make a good team make up. Trin has to move around more

2: Make link not reflect self damage, but make link Augment give Trin no self damage (how TBD), and this would open her up to have fun with the tonker and kulstar and so on.

 

People who think Trin is a support frame only, Don't know how to play Trin :0P

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3 hours ago, (XB1)PhilfyRatBagZ said:

People who think Trin is a support frame only, Don't know how to play Trin :0P

excuse me? 2 of her powers heal HP 2 of them give DR and 1 gives energy. shes a support only frame. playing her in the roll she is intended means people dont know how to play her? stop being ridiculous. you complain about people copying youtubers and then admit to using the build yourself. nothing you say has any credibility good day.

Edited by EinheriarJudith
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Ah yes, I got to afk because I had a link nuke trinity in the group. Not play the game like I wanted to, but instead I got to see someone become god.

What did she do?

Walked up to a wall. Threw castanas at it, jumped, detonated, and made the entire map her B****

The amount of people defending "stare at a wall and kill everything within a 56 meter radius", is just about the same logic as when people were defending god mode trinity from many years ago.

It's not healthy for the game, and it takes away all sense of danger, or any input from team members needed what so ever.

Seen this in survival, everything died before I could do anything because trin was staring at a wall, and spamming castanas.

Seen this in the plains, literally couldn't do anything because trin decided to stare at a wall, again.

Seen this in ESO, still couldn't do anything because trin decided to, you guessed it, stare at a wall.

This isn't some new trick either, this has been around for a long, long time, but I'm guessing that the release of ESO is just making the entire trin nuke build extremely popular for ESO farming. Still, this is beyond ridiculous. This is the exact reason why Rhino wasn't aloud to use self damage on his iron skin. 100k+ HP Iron skins were absolutely absurd, and warranted the nerf. This invulnerable-to-my-own-damage-nuke everything build, also warrants a very much needed look into now.

If I had to make a suggestion to change it, it would either be;

Remove it: Make self damage not reflect to linked enemies what-so-ever

or

Tone it down: Make it so that damage can't chain to multiple enemies if the target dies. If you are linked to 3 enemies, you effect 3 enemies. Period. No more of that map wide kills shenanigans.

I would personally much rather have it toned down, but *something* has to be done about it.

Edit:
Looking at other peoples suggestions a second time, I completely also agree that a change to make her immune to self damage would also be another neat trade-off.

Edited by Shuuro
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@EinheriarJudith

You are taking it out of context!

People who think Trin is >>>a support frame only<<<<, Don't know how to play Trin

Trin is one of the best tanks in this game, thou YOU may not play her that way doesn't mean you get to decide for others.  Yes sure, she is a great support frame for all your glass cannons out there, but it doesn't mean it's the only way to play her!

 

As for your personal attack on my credibility, I stated I'm not pro jump cheese or against it, But I hate the way people ruin a good stratt by copying it then run around in every mode ruining others game play (thats what happen to the synoid gammacor before Scott nerf'd it into the ground)

I also stated I use it when the team I'm with lacks DPS and would have failed or got past zone 3 in that broken game mode. I don't use it elsewhere

 

Seem to me you may have had some bad experiences with jump cheese, now your hell bent on having it nerf'd or anyone that supports it. Or is it your just narrow minded and don't think outside the box? I did agree with you that it should/maybe made to not reflect self damage would be a good thing. Personally I don't care either way, WHY? Because I will support any team mate that plays any stratt till the game mode is over and then go on my merry way. The game is co-op and PUG is PUG if you don't like it...play solo only :0P

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Since emo trin demands very specific builds to excel, and multiplying damage resistances alone would end up only adding two more layers of balancing down weapon damage and occasional healing, like chroma’s scaling back to avoid one shotting yourself, I’d prefer to see more pure ele self harm weapons to lean away from Diamond Eyes. The constant risk of suicide from missing your recast window or having an enemy slip past or spawn and one shot you if you slack off for a second is enough to keep most players from relying on her, even after we’ve passed the grind walls for the castanas, mods, arcanes and sentinel to maximize efficacy.

Granted, even as an EV with minimized duration you can still sneak in a link and pop one off if you’re fast enough. 

Removing versatility and locking frames into particular roles isn’t an attractive option, since many if not all, can be built to fill several depending on what the mission demands (rhino buff, tank, cc; volt dps, buff, cc; equinox dps, stealth farming, buff, cc, heal; nekros tank, cc, heal, loot, dps with sleight of hand etc.) but finding a balance where none are outrageously more effective than others is no easy feat for developers, plus we’re going to complain regardless of what’s implemented. 

Edited by Eidolor
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7 hours ago, (XB1)PhilfyRatBagZ said:

People who think Trin is >>>a support frame only<<<<, Don't know how to play Trin

Trin is one of the best tanks in this game, thou YOU may not play her that way doesn't mean you get to decide for others.  Yes sure, she is a great support frame for all your glass cannons out there, but it doesn't mean it's the only way to play her!

Do you have another example? This comes down to definition of what is and is not a tank.

Personally, the "tank role" does not exist in Warframe because of the severe lack of skills that control and direct the damage flow (aka taunts or redirects) that are not just hard CC (is Banshee a tank?). Frames can be "tanky" by that is a descriptor of defensive prowess not a role. Healers have always had "tanky" elements to them even in the most classical of RPGs. Why? Because healers are the hardest class to actually kill if you can't outpace them. Even the most paper of healers can't be killed if you can't remove them before they can heal. The best/worst part of them is they are sort of a reverse tank by making all their allies "tanks" which is why they almost always get priority when you attack a group (which is why actual tanks are born to defend them). So by extension, in Warframe healers and tanks fall into the same role as defensive supports. The ease of energy acquisition (especially for Trinity) and the simplicity of DR makes Trinity "tanky" as a side bonus for performing a support role. But even in an expanded definition of "Tank role", she has next to no battlefield control methods (outside of the single target stuns of Well and Vamp) in to comparison to say Oberon who has a crazy amount through radiation.

Simply, Trinity being tanky doesn't make her not a heavy support frame. Especially when she can be active in the fight and still be her full support.

All her skills are first and foremost healer support skills, with Link allowing Trinity to be more aggressive as her defensive supplement however DPS Link is an abnormality borne of a number of factors which almost any fix to the base structures will invalidate it (at least in how it is currently being used). I mean Link had an iteration in the past where it granted full immunity when you were linked and they changed that to DR so there is ample reason to fix it again. It is clearly not intended and if your DPS are lacking in a group related activity that has a DPS check (for what efficiency is in onslaught, it is a DPS check) then you should fail. Considering I have gotten pass zone 3 as Solo Excalibur this has much more to do with your particular group that shouldn't be rewarded for such terrible work (not that there aren't still some situations that even OP Spore Saryn would have trouble overcoming that should still be addressed by DE).

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