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Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?


Trekiros
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29 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Trinity Link DPS has been around for 3 years now. I am confused as to why this is being completely killed instead of recalculating how damage reduction works between Diamond Skin and Aviator stacking additive to each other instead of multiplicative. That simple change will still allow players to nuke the map, but it would require more micromanaging between Bless, Link, EV, Quick Thinking, Arcane Energize/Zenurik, all while damaging yourself in some fashion.

After this change, people will just complain that Equinox is taking their kills in Onslaught or Hydron and then what? It happened to Mesa in 2015, it happened to Mag in 2015, it happened to Saryn in 2015, it happened to Limbo after his rework, it happened to Wukong, it happened to Banshee, it happened to Ember, and now it is happening to Trinity. It is sad that more and more gear suffers to slow down the pace of the game.

It looks like I will be putting my Link Trinity build right next to my Hybrid LoR build, my Tonkor, and my Synoid Simulor.

^This, @[DE]Rebecca. Why not fix the interaction between Aviator + Elemental Damage Resistance mods than completely removing self-damage mechanics? What a travesty.

Edited by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23
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3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

gear suffers to slow the game? no. trinity's theme will be uneffected by this change. in mesa's case peacemaker has more interaction rather than being brain dead press 1 button to kill everything in 50m, saryn's kit has become more interactive rather than use molt and just press spore on it. all of your examples are just those of things DE needed to fix so the game is more interactive and less <insert that phrase people use for clicker afk games>

Trinity is a Warframe. All Warframes have kits. Just because most people expect you to EV or Bless doesn't mean you have to. Breaking the barrier of "norms" when it comes to playing this game is how many players, including myself, have fun. The same thing happened to Mirage. People started using her for CC with her Prism. DE gave the impression that Mirage should not CC in most tilesets, and now Prism is the most useless ultimate next to Atlas' Rumblers. There is a pattern that everytime something increases efficiency to levels DE deems off limits, it is scaled down. Efficient players are not something you can stop. DE should change core mechanics so players have freedom of choice when playing and stop trying to stop a freight train of so many players.

Edited by --Q--Voltage
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6 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Trinity is a Warframe. All Warframes have kits. Just because most people expect you to EV or Bless doesn't mean you have to. Breaking the barrier of "norms" when it comes to playing this game is how many players, including myself, have fun. The same thing happened to Mirage. People started using her for CC with her Prism. DE gave the impression that Mirage should not CC in most tilesets, and now Prism is the most useless ultimate next to Atlas' Rumblers. There is a pattern that everytime something increases efficiency to levels DE deems off limits, it is scaled down. Efficient players are not something you can stop. DE should change core mechanics so players have freedom of choice when playing and stop trying stop a freight train of so many players.

that is just your opinion. you also didnt mention how (before LoS rule on prism) it was shutting down the tileset. rumblers arent useless as they take the heat off you and your team while you shoot or bash their faces in. the best part about warframe is the number of warframes we have to fit all those different playstyles we have. unlike you i have no problems with trin being the full support that she is because if i want to play DPS i have choices if i want to play buffer i have choices if i want to play <insert type> i have choices. one frame doing everything will destroy the variety the game offers.

Edited by EinheriarJudith
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7 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Trinity is a Warframe. All Warframes have kits. Just because most people expect you to EV or Bless doesn't mean you have to. Breaking the barrier of "norms" when it comes to playing this game is how many players, including myself, have fun. The same thing happened to Mirage. People started using her for CC with her Prism. DE gave the impression that Mirage should not CC in most tilesets, and now Prism is the most useless ultimate next to Atlas' Rumblers. There is a pattern that everytime something increases efficiency to levels DE deems off limits, it is scaled down. Efficient players are not something you can stop. DE should change core mechanics so players have freedom of choice when playing and stop trying stop a freight train of so many players.

None of that excuses the Warframe who's theme and kit is based around personal/team survivability and energy restoration being able to have one of the highest AOE damage outputs in the game.

Having damage is one thing but being the best of multiple worlds is too over the top.

And as far as them nerfing/fixing interactions while retaining some self damage doesn't do anything. Link will remain inconsistent and just be being nerfed it'll be viewed as 100% useless and never used again which is no different than removing it.

Edited by trst
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Since there are some of the people that are arguing in favor of link nuking because they think it always used to be the way it is.... Let me put things into context here.

A historical fact:  Castanas of all kinds used to explode at the same time when you pressed the button.  One explosion, reflected to 3 linked enemies, and they die. But there was an optimization made so that Castanas exploded one after another to reduce the CPU spike and smooth out a small hitch in frame rate.  That optimization made it so that links could change targets in the time between explosions.  Instead of link-nuking 3 targets, you link-nuke up to 9 at a time depending how your multishot rolls came out.  Potentially even more, with a strong multishot riven.  This happens so fast that it doesn't even render, and makes present-day link nuking MUCH more powerful than it used to be back in the ancient past. Maybe long ago it was a harmless novelty, but now it turns Trinity into one of the strongest damage frames for clearing large areas of the map, without ever seeing an enemy, through walls, automatically.

As far as not wanting to be pigeon-holed into specific roles ("Just because Trinity is a healer doesn't mean she shouldn't be allowed to do damage!").... If you want a hybrid healer/damage frame, then there are other frames that satisfy those tactical roles. Trinity is the *strongest* healer, a specialist, but not the only one that can heal. Equinox, Nidus, Hydroid, Oberon and Harrow all offer a mixture of offense and support if that's the way you want to play. Even putting aside warframe powers entirely, every frame can carry 3 weapons; why not try shooting or stabbing enemies to cause damage?

Edited by Momaw
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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

Wait, does this mean that the associated DR will no longer be applied to self damage for these frames, or just that the damage won't transfer over to the linked units?

would be a bit weird if Nekros lost resistance to his own self damage (which would have been damaging his own minions) to stop Trinity from being a nuke frame.

Edited by OvisCaedo
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58 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

An easy fix would be to make it work like chroma's electric elemental ward, where it reflects damage done to trinity herself. This keeps Aviator and resistance mods safe while completely negating the damageless self damage tactic and not breaking link. No damage done to trinity means no damage done to enemies. You can still do the self damage, just with risk.

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6 hours ago, Cleesus said:

#NerfTrinity (anyone remember those days)

Yes.  Apparently they aren't over yet.  Would someone like to point out that Saryn 3.0 is able to be just as dominant in the damage department as this? 

6 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

^This, @[DE]Rebecca. Why not fix the interaction between Aviator + Elemental Damage Resistance mods than completely removing self-damage mechanics? What a travesty.

This technique only exists because there is a mechanic to become invulnerable to any element you choose while flying.  That is the real problem, right old, invulnerable, trin? 

Please be careful what you nerf.  If you remove every interestingly powerful combo, regardless of how the team feels about its alignment with the theme of the frame or game, nothing will be interesting.  Continue down this path and you will have game wide boredom.   No class or kit will be any more exceptional than any other and the only interest left in the game will be in new releases and I don't want to see the game in that death spiral.  I'm not saying there arn't things that are exceptional and fun.  I'm saying the relative power of those things won't make any choice interesting.

Instead, create new interesting situations where these "overpowered" strategies are unnecessary or better yet, a liability.  Then balance the incentives for doing different missions so that players are lightly encouraged to try different things instead of the "overpowered" one trick ponies.  Let Players decide when they are bored of the one button to win.  Given enough of them, everyone can be OP or challenged or both at any time they choose.  Prior to that point, the player can still be discovering the powerful things they can do, and that is rewarding.  An appropriately built Trin for castanas also ignores armor on the target, which increases the attractiveness of the strategy.  Armor scaling is what drives research and adoption of these strategies.

Address the meta game that makes these things overbearingly attractive.  Removing the thing itself doesn't add anything.

 

Edited by Sahysa
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Interesting how theres 100% agreement that Trin is at least a support. For me shes a goddamn cheat, nothing more nothing less.

To bad DE is not (yet?) brave enough to force REAL balance on the game and make combat overall more interesting and embrace real coop gameplay and in special NINJA gameplay instead of this boring, rushing, spam, 1hitkill clusterf*** this game has became - but jea this is another topic and i guess most likely a very heated and long discussed one (i dont read the forums much)

Edited by eGoxxl
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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

Why Space mom ? ;_; You have betrayed us again...

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I see this topic as accumulation of complaining about how some things should work, what is good and not, what is wrong or OP... such talks are leading to "tactical NERS" and changes, which further limits for example a list of playstyles to choose from.. If someone really wants to play as DPS trinity (even if it is not fitting her role), shouldn't we let that person to do this ?

In my opinion we should accept this as same as in the case if somebody wants to play support trinity... or even full tank banshee. It's simple idea - just give players a choice. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

After this change, people will just complain that Equinox is taking their kills in Onslaught or Hydron and then what? 

 

1 hour ago, Bl4zko said:

Equinox should be nerfed at some point aswell, looking at how all AoE damage frames have been hit lately (not trying to say that he deserves it). Anyways, as long as the game gets more interaction I'm fine with it.

Oh god, here we go... not Equinox, please no ... 😐

Suggestion: why don't you guys give us some real high level enemies to fight that can match our current loadout/dps potential instead of these baby enemies we face on a daily basis? Then you'd stop seeing mid-level AoE builds like castanas trinity one shot the whole map with a button click and single target weapons like snipers would start to truly show their potential. And look and behold, no more need to nerf everything under the sun because we'd finally be faced with a proper challenge for our power level. Castanas trinity wasn't even that strong compared to other stuff out there, it's just the enemy level in ESO was too low. 

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

Why not make enemies smarter and more challenging to fight?

But that would require real work so let's nerf Trinity instead... because she is too versatile? 

You know Mirage can kill team members at any moment without radiation proc?

You know about synergy between specific frames  making them immortal at all time with minimum energy cost?

You know about features you have put into the game you also play and about heavy investments people made into Castanas rivens not to mention Trin Prime sets?

So Pablo considered it to be "cheese" tactic - after he made Saryn all about her Spores, making her MORE useful in ESO but boring in most other missions.

This is another case of overreaction caused by misdiagnose of non-issue  :awkward:

 

 

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And I am here seeing this and thinking...

Well, duh it is getting nerfed, they already nerfed it once before.

 

Let's all get in our way back machine to the days when Trinity gave map wide invulnerability (not 99.9% DR, before that). Back then people were able to just shoot themselves with impunity when Blessing and Link were up and, who woulda thunk, Castanas were the go-to weapon back then as well (Castanas were actually solid weapons on their own right back then). So DE saw this and killed it. I am pretty sure the nerf came before the invulnerability nerf but I can't be sure, what I do know is that one day the build died (only to be reborn years later).

 

Like, seriously, this was not only an obvious nerf to see incoming because it is a hilariously stupid looking thing to do, but there is explicit precedent for DE nerfing Link Trinity.

 

Edit: It is actually kinda funny how many people think that having nuke Link Trinity be a thing is healthy for the game...

Edited by DrBorris
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1 hour ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

^This, @[DE]Rebecca. Why not fix the interaction between Aviator + Elemental Damage Resistance mods than completely removing self-damage mechanics? What a travesty.

Exactly. 

Why is Chroma allowed to do self damage? Why self damage exist at all? Or friendly fire with radiation or by Mirage? Why sarcophagus Inaros can feed of pets to revive?

"It was never intended" is such an awful excuse for nerfs.

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15 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Like, seriously, this was not only an obvious nerf to see incoming because it is a hilariously stupid looking thing to do, but there is explicit precedent for DE nerfing Link Trinity.

 

Edit: It is actually kinda funny how many people think that having nuke Link Trinity be a thing is healthy for the game...

Remember how much people raged when DE nerfed Trinity the first time around so Blessing wasn't complete invulnerability anymore? There's a good reason DE doesn't listen to player feedback, at least not at face value. Scrubs gonna scrub and throw tantrums when crutches get fixed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by traybong111
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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

Will there be some minor efficiency changes for eso then? Since the drain ramps up so fast many people went towards nuke trin feeling like it was only way to keep the efficiency up at higher zones, few changes to eso efficiency drain would encourage people to open to more frames and weapon loadouts.

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1 hour ago, Momaw said:

Since there are some of the people that are arguing in favor of link nuking because they think it always used to be the way it is.... Let me put things into context here.

A historical fact:  Castanas of all kinds used to explode at the same time when you pressed the button.  One explosion, reflected to 3 linked enemies, and they die. But there was an optimization made so that Castanas exploded one after another to reduce the CPU spike and smooth out a small hitch in frame rate.  That optimization made it so that links could change targets in the time between explosions.  Instead of link-nuking 3 targets, you link-nuke up to 9 at a time depending how your multishot rolls came out.  Potentially even more, with a strong multishot riven.  This happens so fast that it doesn't even render, and makes present-day link nuking MUCH more powerful than it used to be back in the ancient past. Maybe long ago it was a harmless novelty, but now it turns Trinity into one of the strongest damage frames for clearing large areas of the map, without ever seeing an enemy, through walls, automatically.

As far as not wanting to be pigeon-holed into specific roles ("Just because Trinity is a healer doesn't mean she shouldn't be allowed to do damage!").... If you want a hybrid healer/damage frame, then there are other frames that satisfy those tactical roles. Trinity is the *strongest* healer, a specialist, but not the only one that can heal. Equinox, Nidus, Hydroid, Oberon and Harrow all offer a mixture of offense and support if that's the way you want to play. Even putting aside warframe powers entirely, every frame can carry 3 weapons; why not try shooting or stabbing enemies to cause damage?

Woah! Someone who is capable of thinking logically.

I don't see how people think that a frame who is undeniably one of the best support frames in the game should also be one of the best DPS frames too. It doesn't make sense. 

Sure, getting rid of this cheese combo would remove a build/playstyle but this kind of playstyle isn't something that should even exist unless your idea of fun is looking at the ground and spamming castanas while jumping.

Like it or not, Trinity's main role will always be supporting her team, not destroying armies through walls.

I mean, if Ash, a frame exclusive to dealing damage isn't allowed to nuke groups of enemies through walls with his 4, then why should Trinity keep it?

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

I'm perfectly OK with this change because it needed to happen, but when it comes to console it also needs to come along side a fix for spawns/gains in Onslaught. On PC Link-bomb trinity is just OP, while on console there have been maps where it's a near-requirement because spawns are so poor/spread out (It was how most groups got to/beyond wave 8 the first week because of the bad rotation). The problem becomes that very quickly two, maybe three frames become a hard requirement for ESO just to do a complete rotation, and I don't think any of us want to see that. 

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