Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?

[kyori]

34 minutes ago, JaycemeSwain said:

Just stop crying, you wouldn't want mesa to be nerfed so don't ask for Equinox to be nerfed.

Yes please nerf mesa too. Nerf every thing. lol

[bungawunga]

Just nerf the game off your hard drive, depending on an overdue quest's content and the future to be announced within a month: I'd rather allocate the space to games I enjoy as opposed to a dead swarm farming game with continual 'balance passes'

[SenorClipClop]

On 2018-05-29 at 7:54 PM, Trekiros said:

I've only discovered this build a couple weeks ago and I've been abusing loving it, so my remarks will have the following opinion behind them: the nuke link build should still be a thing after the nerf, just a lot less powerful, especially in sanctuary onslaught. It shouldn't be nerfed to the point where it doesn't exist anymore. Cause you know... It's fun.

In my opinion, Trin and this setup should not exist in their current state. It's not just in Onslaught, it's pretty much anywhere with denser enemy spawns (Defense, Excavation, Mobile Def, Survival, etc). The "Trinity Castanas" gameplay feels clearly unintended and rewards effective killing to a build that does not involve any actual combat. DE made changes to multiple frames this year (Ember, Gara, Saryn) because players could be incredibly effective while never engaging the enemy. Now those frames need to work for their efficacy, which is clearly the goal for frames across the board. More effort = more results, on a roughly equal ratio. If we follow the logical and predictable pattern by which DE adjusts things, I wouldn't recommend anyone get too attached to the Castanas Trin setup.

While many find it fun (or at least satisfying) to use this strategy, ultimately I think it needs to go. Trin's whole identity is as the dedicated healer/support frame, and when she does that as good as she does, also having a spammable easy-mode nuke based on a weird exploit is both antithetical to her design and honestly kinda broken. I think Trin's big problem is that she just isn't fun. Now I know fun is subjective, but when you look at all the things given to other frames that make them enjoyable (synergies, map-play, stack mechanics, DJ ability), Trin remains incredibly strong but has very little, if anything, that gives her a "fun factor". Even with the Castanas setup, it's just nuking the map that's fun, not playing Trinity herself, because all you're doing is watching one buff and timing your jumps.

Current Trinity feels like more of an obligation due to her abilities' potency than she does a voluntary pick to enjoy the game. Her 1st skill is basically useless when you consider her 4 does more for less input and Energy is trivial because of 2. Her 2 involves no other strategy than to mash the button and swing your aim around to catch a target as often as possible for effortless infinite Energy. Her 3 has potential for letting her be a proper combatant but isn't recastable and forces a grounded stop to cast, so every twenty seconds you need to be frail and stop moving for the cast time's duration. Her 4 just amounts to watching Health bars and pressing a button. Due to her restrictions on movement and low interactivity, Trin does best on the sidelines and she feels pretty relegated to them; she also lacks more modern ability mechanics that make other frames enjoyable. I know Trin's modeled after the healer archetype which is classically less exciting, but she doesn't need to be as boring as she is. Give Trin some map play, make where she casts 1/2 important. Give her some synergy. Let Well of Life actually be worth casting*. Make the team work for EV's potent Energy so that effort yields reward. Give Link the mobility it needs to let Trin participate in the fray smootly. 

^{*Example: How about making WoL a passive AoE heal around the target. Can be cast on allies to make them a mobile healing bubble and also grant them Status immunity. Something like this.}

TL;DR: Castanas Trin is a prime example of unintended gameplay in Warframe. It yields potent damage results for zero enemy engagement, based on some interactions that really feel as though they shouldn't work the way they're working. Expect it to get fixed. If you want to nuke the map, there are other ways that are intended -- damage frames, some weapons. Instead of relying on a dysfunctional exploit to make Trinity enjoyable, let's make Trin fun by updating her, focusing on greater mobility, map-play and having all her skills be worth using.

 

[Zahnny]

That's cool and all but can we nerf Ember again?

[ForgottenGruver]

Play a lot of time in warframe. Every year DE wanna to kill Trinity once and for all but she overbear it. Now I think Trinity will be lost in the dead end, near of Wu - Fu monkey Cong like a trash. Thanks DE, you make trinity useless one more time, but for now once and for all. If you wanna kill her just delete from the game. Stop this mockery on frame and players. Better do somethink that needs real rework and nerfs. Or full rework with changing all mechanics, This is not working in one side. First you nerf, then nobody plays it. All frames are balanced normally on start, just fix some bugs and here we are on good way. Nerfs is looking like degradation of all gameplay

Edited June 5, 2018 by ltnrfs

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, JaycemeSwain said:

Just stop crying, you wouldn't want mesa to be nerfed so don't ask for Equinox to be nerfed. Crybabies like you are the reason WOF Ember, Spore Saryn & now nuke Trin are dead. Who the fudge really cares if its too effective, that is the whole bloody point. Please go play actual high level content and realize that you're just wanting to kill the vet game, 1 frame at a time

I'm not really sure I understand your perspective here, especially when it comes to vets. If you can identify yourself as a "veteran" player of Warframe, you've probably been playing for a long time. You'll have a great familiarity with the game as well as a vast library of customizations and upgrades. A vet with the interest to could make the AkLato into a Sortie-viable weapon with the slew of empowering items they have at their disposal. A proper vet does not need ez-pz one-button map-clearing nukes. A talented and practiced vet can maintain combat while on the move and often in the air. If a vet deems "vet play" just standing around while everything passively dies, their experience and familiarity with the game doesn't really  mean anything. Furthermore, those nuke builds are all pretty easy to set up, so you don't need to be a vet to have access to them. When you imply that nerfing nuke frames is "killing the vet game", I think you're just being salty about not being able to clear rooms with lazy gameplay. You actually have to play the game to deal tons of damage and feel good about yourself.

In general, more effort should be rewarded with greater efficacy, while less effort should still be rewarded (casual players are players too), but not as much as to those who involve themselves more. If low effort is rewarded with the greatest efficacy (ie. one-trick nuke ponies), your game is telling players that the high-paced action combat you've worked to create doesn't really matter. If I want high output for low effort, I'll go play an idle game on my phone, thanks.

In relation to Trinity, she's a support frame and, while she sorely needs an update to make her more interesting, nuking everything via avoided self-damage is not good design and it's not thematic to the frame. Trin needs to be made a more interesting support. Being able to nuke in AoE through walls without ever seeing the enemy is not in line with a healthy effort:efficacy ratio, and on top of that it comes from Trin doing this weird jump/shoot-in-own-foot thing. It's obviously not what developers would call healthy gameplay.

Edited June 5, 2018 by SenorClipClop

[Guest]

FINALLY. I was beginning to think I'd be able to farm the relics for the next prime frame using Nuke Trin lol. Can't wait for all the salt and qq when that update rolls out.

[Orfeusz]

10 hours ago, Xzorn said:

That silly Castana trick is just another symptom of the problem.

We're too powerful to be fighting the same level enemies we've been fighting 4+ years.

You're gunna change a tactic that gets out scaled and keep the Trinity + Mag one-shot lvl 9,999 EV spam?

Okay.

Might want to fix Blessing stacking with other Blessings. 3 Trinity + Gara can get 99.98% Damage Reduction using an Ancient Healer. Of course they're not going to have the damage output to push much past lvl 500 but scaling performance doesn't seem to matter.

"We're too powerful to be fighting the same level enemies we've been fighting 4+ years."

You are basically begging DE to make an upgraded version of nullifiers.. Imagine something like that: You are having a nice day in warframe and then such nullifier 2.0 shows up.. BOOM... all abilities disabled until the end of mission. D:

[SSI_Seraph]

Here's an idea. Remove the stupid damage dealth and kills stats from the mission results and people will stop getting butthurt over kills when they have less efficient gear. 

This is just a trend. It was too good against corpus for mag, people feeling nauseous playing ash, uninteractive gameplay for ember and banshee and now saryn was a passion project. (Some are justified but leaving frames like ember in the dumpster when she was trash to begin with is innacceptable). 

People whine about something> some kind of excuse is found > incoming nerf. 

At this point, i will not even be surprised if equinox or mesa get the nerf bat too even if they respect all the current "criterias". 

Edited June 5, 2018 by SSI_Seraph

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, Klavinmour said:

They've already announced that Trinity's Link is going to no longer work with Self Damage, the patch coming this week, the same will be for Nidus and another Warframe that I can't remember who.

Next topic:

DE buffs explosive weapons and increases self damage range then wonders why people still dont use these weapons.

[uxx0]

40 minutes ago, Orfeusz said:

"We're too powerful to be fighting the same level enemies we've been fighting 4+ years."

You are basically begging DE to make an upgraded version of nullifiers.. Imagine something like that: You are having a nice day in warframe and then such nullifier 2.0 shows up.. BOOM... all abilities disabled until the end of mission. 😧

Why not? Not like this game has an endgame that's worth using all of our OP gear for. I don't count Eidolons as endgame at this point. Some kind of challenge would be appreciated, especially if it required OP gear to clear.

[V4Vlad]

15 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

RIP fun...yet another alternate play style is dead

[EinheriarJudith]

36 minutes ago, V4Vlad said:

RIP fun...yet another alternate play style is dead

hahah maybe for you but i think its more like R.I.P. abusable  lazy mechanics. imo trin is plenty of fun. if i want a fully dedicated healer i play her if i want to do damage and still heal i can do that as oberon or harrow or nezha  or equinox. oh look i have choices.

Edited June 5, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

Then why not just give Trinity a rework and settle the matter once and for all? You guys did say you were gonna' be touching Trinity last year? Addressing the no effort instant health and energy restores while also touching up Well of Life would be great!

 

[(PSN)RedKain243]

Il y a 17 heures, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

If nuke trinity is going away, then efficiency in sanctuary needs to change. Nuke trinity is the only thing making reaching wave 8 consistently possible right now for me.Efficiency needs to be tweaked so that is slows more slowly up to and including wave 8. This will be an even worse problem with the nerf to melee penetrating walls coming to consoles soon.

For what its worth, i really enjoyed nuke trinity and will miss her. Regular trinity isn't worth using in most cases outside of eidolon hunts because doing damage is more important than making energy or staying alive. RIP Nuke trinity, i will miss you.

[Klavinmour]

5 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Typical DE. Rather than fixing the two bugs that make this work, they nerf the ability. FFS SMH.

And you know what? Ancient healers will still take 0 damage from radiation attacks because LOL DE.

Except as stated by DE Link was never intended to work with self damage.
You can't buff Rhino with self damage.
You can't buff Harrow with self damage.
They are removing self damage from Nidus and Nekros at the same time as Trinity this week.

The ability isn't even being nerfed, it's intended purpose as a tanking ability still exists just as strong as it was before self damage is being removed,

Maybe if you stopped looking for ways to remove the gameplay from the game, DE wouldn't need to "nerf" horrible builds like this out of existence.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

@peterc3

21 hours ago, peterc3 said:

I don't think Trinity comes out of a rework with anything close to what she has now.

This 1 seems very OP for a 1st power, but it still seems like it would be heavily underused vs the 4, something you noted about the current Trinity setup.

I didn't really think so when I made this. Giving Well of Life the potential to create "overhealth" similar to Chroma while also allowing it to move and knockdown enemies is something I feel would skyrocket it's use as a healing ability. Blades of Unity has a bit more setup and takes a lot more time to get a health restore seeing as you must guide it to enemies. I purposely made it less practical in battle but more powerful overall.

---

@SneakyErvin

 

21 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think they should slap her #1 and #2 together and make the new skill work similar to Saryn's spores.

Give it a 1% life leech along with a set number like 2 energy/hit or something.

Eh... but then it's not really practical for quickly restoring energy or health.

And what would be her new ability?

---

@ZodiacShinryu

20 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Can I assume since it is a toggle that Trinity also can't benefit from it herself (the energy pulses that is)?

Nope, she still can. Once you release the energy, you will be evenly splitting it between you and all allies.

20 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

What is energy steal? Is it basically a rage functionality for any incoming damage? Is it calculated before mitigations?

Sorry for not explaining this properly. The total damage that the enemy shot at you will count towards the 5%. If it was the 99% reduced damage counting towards it you'd be getting nothing at all. Basically, whatever damage that would've been inflicted on Trinity without the Barrier will count towards the energysteal.

20 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

The energy recovery scales with enemy level basically which encourages allies to stand on you (7m is super tiny) in the low levels and a detriment function as the enemy gets stronger.

The pulse will still be the same range as it currently is, 25 meters. The only benefit allies would get from being in your barrier is some damage reduction in addition to full shields on release. However, I'll increase the range to 14 meters.

20 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Requiring she need to be hit to even get use out of it also seems a problem (one of the things I begrudge on Chroma) because the most prevalent strategies in the game are the exact opposite which may just invalidate this ability altogether.

Is it because of the fact that you'll be taking damage? I did think of just giving Trinity invincibility while she has the barrier active.

20 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

The worst part about it is it basically removes most agency from the player. The lack of being able to do nothing but use your other powers (which I am just going to assume you can) is one of the reasons why Spectral Scream is terrible for what it is. Also based on whether she benefits from energy recover and how it is calculated determines whether it discourages her from even using her other abilities while it is active (much like Chroma's power problems).

I actually didn't intend for the ability to be used for long periods of time, hence why I removed the weapon option so it doesn't feel like Absorb too much and so you aren't encouraged to stay in your barrier. It's mainly for times where you need a quick place to duck behind cover, with the benefit of also restoring energy.

Also, your Link ideas sound nice!

[--Q--Traxtorm]

Why not just change diamond skin? The setup barely works without it and Trinity doesn't need to change. In any case, it's sad to see this game change from a fun 'overpowered godlike' style to a generic shooter, there are better games if that's what you want...

[--END--Rikutatis]

3 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I'm not really sure I understand your perspective here, especially when it comes to vets.

...

I don't know what he meant by vet, and honestly, I couldn't care any less about this trinity link nerf. It wasn't even a very powerful strat for high levels anyways. But at least from my perspective, I see DE balancing content around sortie-ESO levels, which is 80 to low 100s, and that has been slowly taking away playstyles that were viable for high level enemies before. Saryn is the most recent example. She may seem powerful now in ESO and similar levels, but before the rework her damage potential was soooo much higher with the right synergies and weapons (not talking about molt turret, but about toxin procs being carried). Melee weapons seem to be going the same way with the rework. Losing the combo counter on light atks and giving it a base dmg boost will probably keep them effective at sortie level, but make them lose a lot of their value for extended high level runs. And now I see all the whiners in this thread turn towards Equinox and ask for a nerf there next, another frame that has scaling damage and is great for high level content. This is just beyond frustrating how DE keeps catering to all the crying and whining. ESO is just a very artificial game mode with the horrible efficiency drains shoehorning people into very specific setups, nerfing frames based on their performance in this game mode is just wrong on so many levels. Octavia is actually the most OP brain dead frame in the entire line up, she just didn't get in the spotlight because of how ESO works. 

[EinheriarJudith]

41 minutes ago, --Q--Traxtorm said:

Why not just change diamond skin? The setup barely works without it and Trinity doesn't need to change. In any case, it's sad to see this game change from a fun 'overpowered godlike' style to a generic shooter, there are better games if that's what you want...

warframe is a multiplayer online game and as such is subject to balance. want single player? go play a single player game where balance is thrown out of the window.

Edited June 5, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[--Q--Traxtorm]

4 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

warframe is a multiplayer online game and as such is subject to balance. want single player? go play a single player game where balance is thrown out of the window.

It's PvE which is substantially different from PvP. Therefore balance is irrelevant. Don't worry, I play solo most of the time because of all the salt and toxic there has been going around lately...

[EinheriarJudith]

6 minutes ago, --Q--Traxtorm said:

It's PvE which is substantially different from PvP. Therefore balance is irrelevant. Don't worry, I play solo most of the time because of all the salt and toxic there has been going around lately...

PVP or PVE, if there is an online setting where you play with other people it will be subject to balance changes unlike single player games where it doesnt matter.

Edited June 5, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)So-Fane]

18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

Heh, PS4 Onslaught is going to get wrecked. Expect few teams to make it to round 8. 😐

It's kind weird that this Link thing has been around forever, but it's only because of Onslaught that it's now getting removed. Maybe, just maybe, Onslaught is a little broken.

[(PSN)So-Fane]

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I don't know what he meant by vet, and honestly, I couldn't care any less about this trinity link nerf. It wasn't even a very powerful strat for high levels anyways. But at least from my perspective, I see DE balancing content around sortie-ESO levels, which is 80 to low 100s, and that has been slowly taking away playstyles that were viable for high level enemies before. Saryn is the most recent example. She may seem powerful now in ESO and similar levels, but before the rework her damage potential was soooo much higher with the right synergies and weapons (not talking about molt turret, but about toxin procs being carried). Melee weapons seem to be going the same way with the rework. Losing the combo counter on light atks and giving it a base dmg boost will probably keep them effective at sortie level, but make them lose a lot of their value for extended high level runs. And now I see all the whiners in this thread turn towards Equinox and ask for a nerf there next, another frame that has scaling damage and is great for high level content. This is just beyond frustrating how DE keeps catering to all the crying and whining. ESO is just a very artificial game mode with the horrible efficiency drains shoehorning people into very specific setups, nerfing frames based on their performance in this game mode is just wrong on so many levels. Octavia is actually the most OP brain dead frame in the entire line up, she just didn't get in the spotlight because of how ESO works. 

It'll be Volt after that. I've used Equinox and seen a Volt out-damage me and everyone else in Elite. And then it'll probably be Octavia (who I actually count as my favorite frame, even if the playstyle can be lazy). And after that, who knows? Ember already got nerfed into the ground for anything higher than level 30-40. Maybe Mag? Mesa? Actually, surprised Mesa hasn't been nerfed given that she's a 'press four to win' frame like Ash was.

I'm on PS4. We won't even get to use the initial Saryn rework. We'll just be stuck with the current one which looks to be largely useless outside of Elite. I really just wanted toxic lash to be cool, but it sounds like I'll be disappointed when the update drops later today.

[Bao]

18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

@[DE]Rebecca You're probably inundated with more than enough quotes from people on this subject, but I'm genuinely curious as to what will you do aside from removing self-damage capability from Link? We all know standing in one place for too long means certain death once you get into higher level missions, and Trinity has absolutely no mobility when it comes to Energy Vampire and Link. Bless is a godsend because you can at least cast it while in mid-air. She's my go-to for support over just about any other support frame, but when I end up in a group of enemies on say a sortie survival mission, I find myself EV-locking in place to fight replenishing my shields while they're taking it down just as quickly. I end up having to wait for teammates to kill things before I can move freely again. Link doesn't last long enough with standard EV builds to negate the damage while you're EVing, and you can't really rely on Bless for that damage reduction due to the fact it lasts for all of maybe 2 seconds. 

Maybe it's a trade-off that the Devs wanted, I'm not one of them and wouldn't understand the mindset behind it.

She's a fantastic support frame, I agree whole-heartedly. But I feel she needs tweaks, at the very least, in her animations and not just removing certain aspects that were unintended. Make EV and Link casting animations different from each other, or make EV castable while moving. Nyx can get away with this because she turns enemies on each other, Mag lifts enemies into the air, etc. It's fine if it's one enemy she's facing, but a whole group of them all at once? Anything that doesn't lock her in place would be a welcome relief in my book, but hey, I'm just another player lost in the mass of voices out here.