General matchmaking, competitive vs. casual play

[Theroxenes]

Firstly, this is not a post directly about game balance. Rather, I want to address the issues with the current (lack of a) matchmaking system and some ways to improve it without a great deal of invested development time.

The main issue is that casual players and those who take Conclave more seriously are all thrown into the same matchmaking pool. This would be acceptable if there were any sort of skill based matchmaking system, but that simply doesn't exist. Further, the relatively low population of Conclave likely wouldn't support a system of this type. Instead, I would propose a re-organization of the currently offered modes.(Team) Annihilation and Cephalon Capture are, simply put, casual gamemodes in their current state. This is a two-fold problem because not only do the more competitive players have no place to truly test themselves, they end up spending their time demolishing lobbies of less practiced players and ruining the experience for them.

The primary concept is the addition of a 1v1 mode, with skill-based matchmaking and a more limited map pool. The skill rating wouldn't need to be complicated or refined, even a copy-paste formula like Elo rating would suffice. The important part would be giving the competitive players somewhere to actually apply and refine their practice and skill. A 1v1 mode would avoid overly long queues to find other players, as well as being a short developmental hop away from the current Team Annihilation. 1v1 invite-only duels are already popular among the community, why not add official support, maybe even with profile flair or other rewards so you can show off?

This idea certainly has issues to address, but they could be addressed. What's to stop people from leaving matches to tank their skill rating and/or boost their friends? Well, ideally some sort of penalty for leaving. And unless the population was extremely tiny, if you were boosting another player they would be pushed out of your skill rating and it would stop working until they dropped back down. As for tanking your own rating, the reward structure could just be tuned to make this pointless.

"But won't this split an already small community?" Yes. That's sort of the point, but there's more. Instead of having Annihilation, Team Annihilation, and Cephalon Capture as their own distinct modes, these could be rolled into a single casual playlist along with some of the old variant modes. Recruit Conditioning could be removed which would lift a massive divide in the playerbase that currently exists. I know some people would hate the idea of having the existing modes rolled into a single playlist, but the truth is that the current model simply doesn't work. By putting them into a playlist alongside Annihilation, there are more likely to be full lobbies, which makes it more likely that there are teams with the same number of players once the mode switches, which covers up some of the shoddy team systems that plague TA in its current iteration. And by putting them all in one queue, new variants could be added in freely without risk of, say it with me, dividing the playerbase.

Of course, more skilled players could still queue for this mode and stomp everyone. But right now they really have no choice but to play in these lobbies, and asking people to hold themselves back is just as ridiculous as asking people to put up with being remorselessly killed over and over again.

For a TL;DR

1. Add in a focused competitive 1v1 mode with skill ratings + a matchmaking system.
2. Roll the current modes + old variants into a single casual playlist with no matchmaking. Remove RC entirely.

With the goal being to give competitive players a proper place to test their skills, while counteracting the playerbase split and issues with team balancing by combining existing modes.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Theroxenes

[Synpai]

Ah yes, the "I wonder why it's taking 15 hours to get into a match" queue

[Triplinster]

I'm not sure if mixing RC and non-RC is a good idea. Because I see a huge difference between an average non-RC player and an average RC player.

Also, why stop at 1v1? We could apply this to normal gamemodes as well. From my recent comment

 

16 hours ago, Triplinster said:

What we need is MMR/Skill gap separation system. So players who are better with "so much accuracy" and "so much movement" will play against other who are just as good. Same for lower skill level players. 

And this system will not work until we have more players playing, now how do we bring more players before adding MMR system to make the system worth implementing? By solving other issues or adding more features like:

1. Lower entry requirement for new players (Don't need to grind PVE to get gear and ROI setup, system too big to talk about, deserves a separate post. But basically making it easier for PVP only players to get in the action and making a ROI system which makes it independent from PVE (separated costs and revenue sort of?), and worth it for DE to work on. )

2. Bug fixing and proper weapon balance.

3. Addition of server browser. This will increase active players over time. As most people complain PVP is "empty" most of the time. With this server browser, they'll be able to select and play in servers that may be in different regions but have active session. As players over time increase, so will the dedicated servers, accelerating growth of the game mode (assuming other issues are solved/checked).
4. Weekly rotation of PVP variants
5. And much more (can't remember everything that's been discussed)

[Theroxenes]

6 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

I'm not sure if mixing RC and non-RC is a good idea. Because I see a huge difference between an average non-RC player and an average RC player.

In my opinion RC is a double-edged sword. It provides a safe? way of learning the ropes and getting some standing to progress in the syndicate. But it also never pushes the players to improve and splits the playerbase in a really unfortunate way. If these new players were investing time in a general casual mode instead, they could learn more in a fun environment and the divide would be removed.

As for server browser, as many problems as it would solve I don't think it's realistic, and I think a competitive outlet would still be needed with a server browser in place.

[Triplinster]

4 minutes ago, Theroxenes said:

In my opinion RC is a double-edged sword. It provides a safe? way of learning the ropes and getting some standing to progress in the syndicate. But it also never pushes the players to improve and splits the playerbase in a really unfortunate way. If these new players were investing time in a general casual mode instead, they could learn more in a fun environment and the divide would be removed.

I think RC should at least be kept for low mastery rank players. Kick the high MR players out? maybe, they got major unfair disadvantage over the average RC player (Newbie low MRs btw).
It's sad to see some MR 1-2s with with starter gear getting mauled by some MR 25 with arca plasmor/ignis.
 

11 minutes ago, Theroxenes said:

As for server browser, as many problems as it would solve I don't think it's realistic, and I think a competitive outlet would still be needed with a server browser in place.

I never said pick one. We can have both. Also why do you think it's not realistic?

[Theroxenes]

2 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

I never said pick one. We can have both. Also why do you think it's not realistic?

Because it's been a highly requested feature since dedicated servers were added, without any positive response from the devs. I'm personally done waiting for some action on that and would rather discuss other solutions.

[NNKanell]

With such a system, the conclave will have to introduce worthy rewards.
Otherwise, no one will go.

[Nighttide77]

3 hours ago, Theroxenes said:

asking people to hold themselves back is just as ridiculous as asking people to put up with being remorselessly killed over and over again.

I dunno.  People who pubstomp...I don't understand what a person gets by pubstomping.  Imo, a pubstomper is like a black belt beating down the white and yellow belts in a dojo.

[Theroxenes]

5 minutes ago, Nighttide77 said:

I dunno.  People who pubstomp...I don't understand what a person gets by pubstomping.  Imo, a pubstomper is like a black belt beating down the white and yellow belts in a dojo. 

That's part of the point I was trying to get at. If you're good at the game, right now there's not much to do other than pubstomping and it feels pretty pointless. You can intentionally gimp yourself but expecting people to do that out of... honor, or whatever, is unrealistic. People like to flaunt their stuff even if the audience might not be able to appreciate it.

[Triplinster]

 

5 hours ago, Theroxenes said:

People like to flaunt their stuff even if the audience might not be able to appreciate it.

You should clarify whether you mean people who go to extreme ends to use the most unbalanced/broken gear to pub stomp everyone, or all players who pub stomp even with mk1 braton and lato by just playing normally.

 

5 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

People who pubstomp...I don't understand what a person gets by pubstomping.  Imo, a pubstomper is like a black belt beating down the white and yellow belts in a dojo.

Because you both sound like pub stomping in general is bad and that players who're better at playing should feel bad.

Make no mistake, I do believe it is pointless and that we should be separating players with skill gaps and as thero said we need more competitive outlets. 

But I don't agree with the idea that

Pub stomping = shameful = bad

[Nighttide77]

19 hours ago, Triplinster said:

But I don't agree with the idea that

Pub stomping = shameful = bad

So...black belts shouldn't feel bad about beating up white and yellow belts while sparring?

On 2018-05-29 at 3:22 PM, Theroxenes said:

That's part of the point I was trying to get at. If you're good at the game, right now there's not much to do other than pubstomping and it feels pretty pointless. You can intentionally gimp yourself but expecting people to do that out of... honor, or whatever, is unrealistic. People like to flaunt their stuff even if the audience might not be able to appreciate it.

You could experiment with different weapons and frames...instead of the usual sniper or auto...or go full melee...  I know most people just go all out because they only have one mode: 100% berserk.  Shoot, I was that way for a very long while until I reflected about what I gained as a person or what others gained....or lost.  In the end it's about having fun, and preferably such that even if you're losing you're at least enjoying yourself.

I also get what you're trying to say about people "flaunting their stuff".  It is many people's joy to stand on top of a mountain made from your opponents.  Yet, that doesn't bode well for the devs for a few people to have fun while the majority are flipping their desks.  It also doesn't do anything for a person because eventually the joy of pubstomping will get dull and they'll go seek a new challenge elsewhere.

I like your suggestions to try to spurn things forward to help each to have fun.  Yet, I don't think it's too much to ask competitive players to keep in mind that they aren't improving their skills by pwning newbs.

[Triplinster]

1 hour ago, Nighttide77 said:

So...black belts shouldn't feel bad about beating up white and yellow belts while sparring?

Can "black belts" fight other "black belts" every time they start playing? With zero "white/yellow belts"?

What if they're just trying to play like everyone else? Should they be ashamed of playing?

[Theroxenes]

5 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

You could experiment with different weapons and frames...instead of the usual sniper or auto...or go full melee...

I don't disagree with this in principle, and I've been trying to do this myself recently. But what I'm trying to get at is that the onus really shouldn't be (and can't realistically be) on the players. It's the job of the devs to create an even playing field.

[Nighttide77]

20 hours ago, Triplinster said:

Can "black belts" fight other "black belts" every time they start playing? With zero "white/yellow belts"?

What if they're just trying to play like everyone else? Should they be ashamed of playing?

They should be ashamed of stomping white/yellow belts instead of helping them to get stronger.  You don't sharpen another player's skills by deleting them every time you see them.  If the community wants more players, they also need to foster a sense of "community" for newcomers that is seen amongst veterans and experts.  I can name at least one person that has done so for a player lobby (that wasn't me...my aim skills have diminished too much to claim such a thing).

Of course, if it's one of those players that "only wants that skin" or is trying to farm challenges, then that person obviously has no actual interest in having fun or being fun.

16 hours ago, Theroxenes said:

But what I'm trying to get at is that the onus really shouldn't be (and can't realistically be) on the players. It's the job of the devs to create an even playing field.

I agree with that, too.  Unfortunately the devs have leaned on the players to keep it fair in PvP since PvP was introduced (in 1.0, there were unspoken rules about weapons and mods).  That is something that should change.

I think part of the design philosophy the devs had for PvE was to make a player feel powerful amongst hordes of the enemy.  Unfortunately that doesn't translate well over to PvP...unless they reinstated variants with super buffs to certain weapon classes or powers.

[Triplinster]

On 2018-05-31 at 10:20 PM, Nighttide77 said:

They should be ashamed of stomping white/yellow belts instead of helping them to get stronger.

Likewise, I can say, the players in the match should be ashamed of not showing great interest in game mode, enough to ask themselves why and how they fall behind compared to the pros and learn from their mistakes and get on their level. This is non sense.
 

On 2018-05-31 at 10:20 PM, Nighttide77 said:

You don't sharpen another player's skills by deleting them every time you see them.

That is not entirely true. I have seen players with interest actively try to play against those above them. To get punished for their mistakes and learn.

 

On 2018-05-31 at 10:20 PM, Nighttide77 said:

If the community wants more players, they also need to foster a sense of "community" for newcomers that is seen amongst veterans and experts.

We do have veterans/experts who lend a helping hand to people with interest. Look at the conclave discord (discord.me/conclave). Some go as far as trading free CC mods along with advice and tips. Not every skilled player is a part of the "helping" community, nor are they responsible for it. And I don't think it's shameful. They just want to play the game like any other player.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Triplinster

[Nighttide77]

On 2018-05-31 at 3:47 PM, Triplinster said:

Likewise, I can say, the players in the match should be ashamed of not showing great interest in game mode, enough to ask themselves why and how they fall behind compared to the pros and learn from their mistakes and get on their level. This is non sense.
 

That is not entirely true. I have seen players with interest actively try to play against those above them. To get punished for their mistakes and learn.

 

We do have veterans/experts who lend a helping hand to people with interest. Look at the conclave discord (discord.me/conclave). Some go as far as trading free CC along with advice and tips. Not every skilled player is a part of the "helping" community, nor are they responsible for it. And I don't think it's shameful. They just want to play the game like any other player.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree here...  I try not to address multiple parts of posts because the point at which that occurs people have usually ended up saying the core of what they have to say and everything after that might end up veering into odd tangents.  However, if you ever get a black belt, let me know what school you teach at...cuz reasons...