My Feedback on Missions and Levels in Warframe

[NinjaZeku]

4 minutes ago, Syasob said:

The 'issue' of failing a mission if you don't kill a single enemy is not an issue.

Even in a mission type that's entirely not about killing enemies?

3 minutes ago, Syasob said:

There're more then a dozen of possible issues this mechanic solves that I can think of right now.

Could you name some, please?

[TheGreenFellow]

1 hour ago, DYSEQTA said:

I responded to your opening point namely "One of my earliest pet peeves was discovering that Interception missions are all but impossible if playing alone. ". I reject that point, state that I actually prefer to play that way and suggest why I think our experiences might differ is due to your grasp of one of the game's key systems.

Perhaps, next time, you should learn to accept criticism as comfortably as you seem to dish it out.

 

That wasn't the first thing I said. The first thing I said was " I started out Warframe being a Solo player - clearing all the nodes one by one, taking my time and all." The context is right there for you, and you ignored it, twice now. It's also immediately followed by an acknowledgement that with certain frames/tools, a.k.a. being "in the know", interception solo is quite possible.

If you're going to provide criticism and wish it to be received comfortably, then give the least amount of effort to *read* what you are critiquing.

Edited May 30, 2018 by TheGreenGunner

[TheGreenFellow]

45 minutes ago, Fiftycentis said:

are you sure you weren't targeting the clone some of the targets spawns?

100% Positive. Something glitched out whilst scanning one of the nodes while it was trapped, the node disappeared without the scan being complete, and I was unable to complete the Synthesis. Unfortunately I didn't think to take screenshots or the like at the time.

[Keiyadan]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb NinjaZeku:

Could you name some, please? 

i was doing lua spy jesterday in help for another player with my ivara with the augment against lasers i was a long time since i did them last but there was no problem well i triggert one room cause i was to fast hehe but everythings else works fine but still you need to know the rooms but some people complain about the corpus and grenieer spys to and i can say every spy knowlege is 50% of succses for every spy room

 

[TheGreenFellow]

1 hour ago, GinKenshin said:

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Again with this thread, newbies are suppose to have these difficulties, they’re suppose to fail the first 10 times or so, that’s how trial and error works. You said you find it hard at start but then breezes through them....newbies can also do that

Well, we will have to agree to disagree that newbies are "supposed to fail". I don't like it, in any game, when players are *forced* to fail, whether by DM fiat or by other design, unless it is clearly stylized to fit a narrative purpose.

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There’s no point of failing if you can still do the room. What’s a ‘parkour’ room if you can just kill enemies and get the rewards. You fail you get nothing, simple as that, same with life

Killing the enemies needn't unlock the room's rewards right away, just resetting the challenge would suffice.

Quote

  As for the moon rooms, it’s basically the same thing but a bit harder. You will fail, hell I failed the first few times, there’s nothing wrong with that. If find a problem with looking at outside sources and ‘not playing the game’ then this game isn’t for you, because that’s how it’ll stay for the next few years, trying to tutorialize Warframe is a very hard thing the devs can’t afford to do

I reckon they can afford to do so, they simply haven't prioritized it yet. And I mean, I've stuck through the issue of the lack of ingame info and so has everyone else...but that doesn't mean it's a problem that should be ignored indefinitely.

 

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As for the solo-ability, the room you mention literally gives you the COACTION drift, it’s in the name....it makes perfect sense that you need a squad to do it. Hell you only need 2 ppl, not 4 since you can use your operators

Coaction doesn't mean what you think it means: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/coaction
Coaction Drift still has usefulness for Solo play. And, how would an unknowing player learn that using an operator works?

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  Again, dude, most of these threads are either non-issues or minor ones. Think before you post

Clearly not true, or I wouldn't be posting them. I really don't understand why you and so many others feel compelled to take things personally and try to silence feedback.

edit: Well, that's not how I expected the quote brackets to work, and I can't figure out now how to fix this. Whatever, it's readable enough.

Edited May 30, 2018 by TheGreenGunner

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, Errodin said:

It's 3 rounds because Nef Anyo is cheating, your playing HIS game with his rules that's why it's not the same as the regular Index and you have to play it so many time because he's changing the rules and the stakes. The quest works that way to make you feel some sort of "weight" towards winning and losing.

They still could have condensed it. There are a total of SIX three-round missions (normal, another normal, die randomly once, "ten-point margin", forced loss, and finale) that could have easily been shortened to three or four (die randomly once, "ten point margin", forced loss [which could end the "ten point margin" mission if we want], and finale)

[Syasob]

19 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Could you name some, please?

• pet AFK resource farming
• unintended too long void strike stacking
• forcing players out of a mission if no enemy spawn due to a rare bug
• etc.

[TheGreenFellow]

Ach, I missed a fourth:
New players who have not yet talked to Simaris seem to not have any indication on their end that there is a Synthesis target and that they're damaging one. I've had it happen more than once that a new player won't know and will immediately apologize once I ask and inform them of what was up and why that one was so much harder to kill. 😛

[TheGreenFellow]

On multiple occasions, I've done a Uranus Nightmare Exterminate mission that runs into a bug: there's not enough map space to populate all the enemies necessary for the Nightmare-mode objective (largely thanks to underwater tiles), resulting in having to go back and forth from end to end of the entire map trying to get the game to spawn enough enemies to fulfill the requirements.

Sometimes, the map generation is level-headed and manages to at least cram the final group of enemies you need to kill in the last room; but, that's not a given, and the end result is a frustrating experience.

Maybe step back from increasing the number of enemies so much, or else adjust the Uranus tile generation such that spawning enough enemies won't be a problem?

[TheGreenFellow]

47 minutes ago, Syasob said:

Not sure if you really want any discussion... but here I am.

The point of having data stored in safe place is not an issue so it's more surprising that Tenno can so easily break into Grineer and Corpus vaults. Lua Spy rooms are really great: you don't usually have the only optimal way to the final console and you need some skill even when 'You know what to do, Tenno' (c)

Spectator drones can't see you when you're behind. And with their script-like behavior avoiding them is as easy as taking candy from a child.

Wall-latch room can be done in the present: ruins and spectators are much safer if you're not good in latching.

The 'issue' of failing a mission if you don't kill a single enemy is not an issue. There're more then a dozen of possible issues this mechanic solves that I can think of right now. Now you know why exactly your mission failed and you can manage to avoid it in the future.

Sure, I embrace discussion - so long as Wheaton's Law is followed.

Is it so surprising that Tenno can break into these vaults, though? I mean, we're supposed to be unique, rare, powerful, quasi-magical controllers of biomechanical ninajs, right? But, I guess that's not quite relevant anyways.

It's true that Lua vaults introduce one or two more alternate branches here and there, and are more challenging even if you can find ways to ignore the issues I've mentioned. But, how are you going to know what those branches are without an external resource teaching you? The game itself gives no clues or hints of any sort, and when many of the things encountered in a Lua spy mission only exist in Lua spy missions and nowhere else, there's no reference point for a player to draw upon and form an idea or plan about how to proceed.

And of course the drones can't see you when you're behind them - they'd be impassable obstacles otherwise - but isn't it a bit unintuitive to have their sight range extend past the visible lasers? Why have the lasers extend as far out as they do to begin with, then, if they're supposed to only be an indicator of direction and not distance? Sure, if you are "in the know" and memorize their patterns, you can avoid them. But again, that's the perspective from being "in the know", and for someone not in the know and not looking up out-of-game resources, there is no way to find out without raw trial and error - and thanks to the issue you pointed out, you have a limited amount of time in which to do so that is not listed to you ingame, does not give you a timer or any headsup whatsoever, and instantly kicks you out when it reaches the limit.

I mean, if that doesn't stand out to you as an 'issue', I dunno what does.
 

32 minutes ago, Keiyadan said:

i was doing lua spy jesterday in help for another player with my ivara with the augment against lasers i was a long time since i did them last but there was no problem well i triggert one room cause i was to fast hehe but everythings else works fine but still you need to know the rooms but some people complain about the corpus and grenieer spys to and i can say every spy knowlege is 50% of succses for every spy room

 

True, Ivara with the augment can bypass the lasers too. Just not typical for people doing Spy to already have the frame that you have to do lots of Spy to get. 😛 That's kind of my issue with Spy Vaults, though - while I do find them kinda fun, they're more about whether your knowledge about how to bypass the threats, than they are about being a test of your ability and skill, and I kinda dislike that.

20 minutes ago, Syasob said:

• pet AFK resource farming
• unintended too long void strike stacking
• forcing players out of a mission if no enemy spawn due to a rare bug
• etc.

I'm pretty sure each of these issues, and more, could be solved (if they aren't already) without an invisible timer that the game never tells you about, gives you any headsup about, and instantly kicks you out without any rewards, invaliding any time/effort you might have put into the mission to that point.

It's an archaic solution that isn't necessary by any means and certainly is unfair punishment for someone taking their time trying to figure out the unintuitive Lua Spy puzzle.

[NinjaZeku]

27 minutes ago, Syasob said:

pet AFK resource farming

You could just disable the "free resource" Precept if no enemies have been killed for a while.

29 minutes ago, Syasob said:

unintended too long void strike stacking

Put a (generous) limit on Void Strike instead.

29 minutes ago, Syasob said:

forcing players out of a mission if no enemy spawn due to a rare bug

That just seems like assuming players are too stupid to use the Abort Mission option.

Sorry, none of these seem like a good, nevermind the best, way to handle things,
or help in making me okay with that mission failure penalty.

[torint_man]

3 hours ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Some of these tests flatly require multiple players as well

False. Only one of them does in theory, but it can actually be done solo with loki. Your warframe, your decoy, your operator, and a specter can each stand on a pressure pad simultaneously.

[torint_man]

3 hours ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Syndicate Survival mission is a bit lame - without Nekros and Desecrate, it's often all but impossible to find all 8 things in time

Use either Limbo or Equinox with max range and loot radar. I personally use equinox because she can kill enemies easier.

[TheGreenFellow]

So...this is going to be a bit harsh, apologies if I don't beat around the bush. The 'boss fight' experiences in Warframe are some of the worst gaming experiences I've ever had: Vay Hek (by far my least favorite Assassination in the game), Lech Kril, and really just boss design in general is...not the greatest. The fights are unintuitive; the weaknesses/stages are often poorly defined (if at all); the dialogue is rather drab (Tyl Regor is a lovely exception to that); and there's a distinct over-reliance on 'invulnerability phases'. (Which might not be necessary if you focused on balance as regards to the domino-tower of mods, armor, power creep, and so on.)

In addition I've noted these particular issues as follows:

- The Raptor is quite glitchy movement/animation-wise, visually teleports around, can hit through walls, the objective often doesn't complete even when done right, drones can float and shoot through walls as well....
- Lephantis boss sortie can just straight-up bug out at times and not continue to the second phase.
- The Juggernaut can often shoot through walls, with an attack that can easily insta-down any frame (and instantly destroy Sentinels). Figuring out how to damage it isn't the most intuitive thing in the world (such as shooting it when it's attacking you with the insta-down attack). And it has many animation-action issues, concerning direction of attack, duration of animation vs. duration of action, and general strangeness - the way it moves often doesn't feel smooth or natural in a way you might expect. (It's tough to define, but it just feels off.)
- The Phorid is whacky: Tracking missiles that are difficult to dodge at best and also go through terrain and will OHKO you; it can drain all your energy all at once; and it summons endless hordes of infested. On the flipside...it goes down quickly to a basic Level 30 weapon with the mods you'd expect on a level 30 weapon.

All in all, there's a whole lot of room to improve in Warframe when it comes to Boss Fights.

[TheGreenFellow]

As per title. When clearing the star chart, just in *general*, the Junction Spectre fights - which I thought were pretty neat, thematically, and I liked the animation/music each time I unlocked a junction - were far too easy.

The sole exception was Valkyr...and that was thanks to her invulnerability ability.

The rest, felt like complete pushovers. I don't know if the Spectres were designed before Warframe had mods to the extensive degree we do now, or what, but...*maybe* these fights could be made a little more challenging and interesting? Defeat them 3 times perhaps? This is one case where I'd say it's justifiable to draw out the fight a little bit.

[TheGreenFellow]

When soloing Excavation, I've encountered an issue of not being giving enough power cells to complete the objective. I'm not sure if it's because of the maps or the count of players, but it seems like a problem that could be easily rectified such that the influx of power cells is the same (as in, enough to complete the objective) whether you are solo or in a 4 man?

On a similar note, the difference in scaling between solo and 4-man is palpably awful. I've mentioned the idea in a couple threads now, but I really think the scaling should be adjusted so that it feels about the same whether you are playing alone or in a 4-man group. There's enough encouraging people to play in groups as things stand, there's no reason to leave the state of affairs the way it is where playing Solo causes issues with certain mission types.

I don't like that the Extractors don't scale upwards in shield/health values in the manner that enemies do. Scaling can quickly ramp up to a degree that one hit from any enemy will instantly destroy a drill, is that really necessary? If you want to prevent the mission from going too long, surely there's better options than insta-gibbing our drills.

Lastly, level 20+ excavation with projectile enemies around starts feeling nearly impossible to manage without Frost around - since, as I mentioned above, enemies all too quickly scale up and begin to be capable of destroying drills with a single hit. I'm not certain that's an ideal situation, but I'm just as uncertain about the fix, if fixing scaling & balance problems as whole can't be done.

[Redspace0095]

At the same time, perhaps you were better prepared for them than the average new player either through research or assistance from 3rd party. 

At the same time, the weapon buffs that happened not so long ago may have also worked to indirectly nerf the junction spectres.

[chaotea]

Remember that they're scaled at the area they unlock, and arnt meant to be super challenging. They arnt true bosses.

[chaotea]

DE has spoken about boss fights in past devstreams and for the most part touched on the common elements you've mentioned.

I believe there will be a boss update across the board at some point. It also seems like edilons were a test for how boss fights could proceed without invulnerable stages.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, TheGreenGunner said:

 and there's a distinct over-reliance on 'invulnerability phases'. (Which might not be necessary if you focused on balance as regards to the domino-tower of mods, armor, power creep, and so on.)

Yeah, the devs have really been forced into a corner on that one...

1 hour ago, TheGreenGunner said:

the weaknesses/stages are often poorly defined (if at all)

Gotta disagree with you there. Their weaknesses are almost always Radiation, and the exceptions are Infested bosses and both forms of Alad V (Corrosive). The only inconsistency is Vay Hek (also Corrosive). As for stages, I never feel they aren't intuitive

1 hour ago, TheGreenGunner said:

- The Juggernaut can often shoot through walls, with an attack that can easily insta-down any frame (and instantly destroy Sentinels). Figuring out how to damage it isn't the most intuitive thing in the world (such as shooting it when it's attacking you with the insta-down attack). And it has many animation-action issues, concerning direction of attack, duration of animation vs. duration of action, and general strangeness - the way it moves often doesn't feel smooth or natural in a way you might expect. (It's tough to define, but it just feels off.)
- The Phorid is whacky: Tracking missiles that are difficult to dodge at best and also go through terrain and will OHKO you; it can drain all your energy all at once; and it summons endless hordes of infested. On the flipside...it goes down quickly to a basic Level 30 weapon with the mods you'd expect on a level 30 weapon.

Now on these we are in agreement. Juggernaut needs serious hitbox fixing and Phorid can just piss off. Phorid is the only boss where the way to dodge his attack isn't intuitive (stay close to Phorid and he will never use his instakill Spine-strike. His roar attack can't be dodged at all without using Z-kid mode)

[TheGreenFellow]

edit: UGH I do not understand this forum's quote system at *all*. How do you break up the quotes without turning it into a big giant mess?

@TARINunit9:

That's not really what I meant (and until the recent change to Synthesis Scanners, how were we to know any information about damage type weaknesses ingame?).

What I'm talking about is figuring out where to shoot otherwise invulnerable bosses, like Vay Hek, Lech Kril, and the Juggernaut - to the uninitiated the only hope is to spray and pray and slowly try to make out some kind of pattern. Compare that to your average 'boss fight' in Doom. There's a big difference!

And, we may have to disagree about the stages. Figuring out what the stages are, how to progress them, and just generally knowing what to do, is something that in Warframe was on the whole to be a frustrating, I'd even say agonizing, experience. Again, it boils down to being 'in the know' via out-of-game resources/videos (or being a developer with the inside-out perspective of the game) as opposed to putting oneself in the shoes of a player going in without any foreknowledge.

Edited June 2, 2018 by TheGreenGunner

[TARINunit9]

8 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

edit: UGH I do not understand this forum's quote system at *all*. How do you break up the quotes without turning it into a big giant mess?

Quote someone. Then select all the text you don't want and delete it. Then type your response under it. Then, quote that person a second time, and delete some different text, like so:

9 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

What I'm talking about is figuring out where to shoot otherwise invulnerable bosses, like Vay Hek, Lech Kril, and the Juggernaut - to the uninitiated the only hope is to spray and pray and slowly try to make out some kind of pattern. Compare that to your average 'boss fight' in Doom. There's a big difference!

Vay Hek follows an obvious trope: shoot the face. Juggernaut follows another obvious trope: it exposes its weakpoint during an attack, so shoot the open fleshy parts. Lech Kril I agree, he doesn't have very good feedback

11 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

And, we may have to disagree about the stages. Figuring out what the stages are, how to progress them, and just generally knowing what to do, is something that in Warframe was on the whole to be a frustrating, I'd even say agonizing, experience. Again, it boils down to being 'in the know' via out-of-game resources/videos (or being a developer with the inside-out perspective of the game) as opposed to putting oneself in the shoes of a player going in without any foreknowledge.

Uh... which stages are you talking about?

[TheGreenFellow]

16 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Quote someone. Then select all the text you don't want and delete it. Then type your response under it. Then, quote that person a second time, and delete some different text, like so:

Wow, that's unecessarily tedious...thanks for enlightening me, though.

16 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Vay Hek follows an obvious trope: shoot the face. Juggernaut follows another obvious trope: it exposes its weakpoint during an attack, so shoot the open fleshy parts. Lech Kril I agree, he doesn't have very good feedback

Uh... which stages are you talking about?

Okay - "Vay Hek" is to all appearances a flying machine that warps and twists around in mid-air in ways that feel physically impossible, and moves around in such a manner that it's hard to so much as get a good look at him; how are you supposed to deduce where his face even *is*? I actually don't even really know to this day where his face is, all I know is to shoot at the thing on his back when it starts glowing.

By what manner is it an obvious trope that the Juggernaut's only vulnerable when attacking? Especially when its attack takes a split second and it does not spend any animation or time building up to its most common (and most lethal) spine attack? There's no visible change in its "fleshy parts" when it's not attacking, they look perfectly visible and vulnerable, yet clearly damage-wise are not, so how on earth is that intuitive?

Stage-wise, Vay Hek is an obvious sinner. Lech Kril is another one - I still don't really know whether to shoot at the backpack or the tubes on it or what, and it's quite difficult to tell whether it's making any progress until he finally does his Saiyan-wannabe animation (and finally becomes killable, usually dying in a matter of moments because apparently invulnerability > giving a boss substantial hitpoints). Alad V and his Zanuka, and figuring out that you can't actually do anything to the Zanuka first - you have to down Alad V, let him be revived, and repeat the process over and over until the Zanuka's shields are all but invulnerable to attack - is another one that doesn't make sense; my first time around I easily spent 5 minutes shooting the thing after the first time I noticed it revive Alad V, wondering whether something was wrong or if it was magically only vulnerable to 1 specific element....

*Some* of the bosses, stage-wise, are O.K.: Kela de Thaym, Tyl Regor, Sargas Ruk (though he's still a sinner for falling under the 'invulnerability' umbrella). I'd say the Jackal/Razorback are iffy, but still better than others.

 

Oh, and as an addendum to everything discussed so far? "The Sergeant" is a complete joke and feels like a glorified regular 'mob add' Corpus Tech that takes another split second to kill. About as much a pushover as most of the relay specters....

[TheGreenFellow]

When playing through this quest, I was completely stymied by not knowing I needed to check my inbox in order to receive the blueprint necessary to progress through the quest. I thought my game had bugged out, that the quest was glitchy, and spent an abnormal amount of time having no clue what to do until I opted to look at third-party resources to figure out what was going on.

So, please consider making the process idiot-proof, and at the very least have the quest contain instructions to check the inbox ?

[TheGreenFellow]

I'm not going to lie, I would not have any chance of knowing how to get through Kuva Spy levels without having first watched videos demonstrating the pathways through each of the vaults. I honestly do not know how anyone not already 'in the know' could be expected to figure out where many of the paths even are, let alone that interacting with destructible buttons and the like are necessary to progress through some vaults.

I mean, bravo on committal to creating a challenge, but...like I find myself repeating over and over with a lot of the feedback I have to share here - unless you are already "in the know", it doesn't make sense to the uninitiated.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask that challenging content, like these Kuva Fortress spy vaults, still be intuitive, and changed to be intuitive where they currently are not.

(Granted, this is painting a broad stroke, and if I were to take this fully seriously I'd go in here with screenshots and step-by-step critiques of each part of the level design, but I feel this really just stems from a basic overall mistake of not stepping back and looking at things, design-wise, from the perspective of a new player.)

Edited June 2, 2018 by TheGreenGunner