My Feedback on Missions and Levels in Warframe

[TheGreenFellow]

24 minutes ago, krc473 said:

You have 15 seconds to decide. This should give you plenty of time to figure out that your squad is leaving. It is to benefit the people that want to keep playing. Maybe someone is happily chatting in the text chat, they forget to make a choice. It is better to allow them to stay in the mission.

AFK people get no rewards anyway. So why does it matter? They keep going and fail, no rewards. They get forced to extract, no rewards. People need to take some accountability - "I went AFK at a silly time and lost everything", well, you knew the mission was about to go to the transition stage...

Life is not always so convenient. There's any number of reasons a person might have to look away.

Them being in the mission does still affect it difficulty-wise; more players, more spawns, as far as I'm aware?

There's no need for there to be such a punititive approach to AFKers, either. Sometimes, stuff just happens and gets in the way, and I'd rather that we not potentially lose *everything* in the mission up to that point as a result.

I'd rather continue without them, then have to be the one that has to extract myself and leave the AFKer behind.

20 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Technically, forever ago for missions that had an exit point, apparently you had to be there before time up/extraction countdown whatever, or you personally failed.

 

Look, @TheGreenGunner I personally believe in you. You can totally adjust to what you currently perceive as annoying or challenging. I'd personally save my complaints for serious problems, as opposed to annoyances or things that kind of irritate you, or things that seem too challenging. (They won't be eventually, eventually it all becomes rote ^{except the Lua spy missions, but I bet you get better at those than I am!}) 

 

Also, I'd like to take this time to complain about draconian plat fraud punishments and a lack of diversity in the staff.

 

Also the bloom settings on the dev streams on Twitch. Seriously, I had to turn my brightness waaay down.

Damn, really? If that's really how mission extraction worked in the past, that sounds incredibly excessive. I can see why that was changed...can't exactly see why it would have been implemented in that way to start with though.

Anyhow, this is the Feedback area. Issues both large and small ought to be freely discussed, rather than *only* focusing on large problems - otherwise, the small stuff starts to pile up, and it's often the case that the solutions to such things are equally small, easy to take care of, and provide a benefit that is larger than one might think.

Taking Elite Dangerous, for instance, my favorite parts of their updates are generally the small Quality of Life tweaks they make to enhance the game, and not at all their 'content updates' and additions.

I do concur about plat fraud and so on, but I mean, this is the Mission & Levels area, so subject for another time. 😉

[ReinAxefury]

This has been an issue since this mode was introduced, sometimes defectors would get stuck and unable to move, now its been less frequent and troublesome than it used to, at least i haven't experienced myself any issues on Defection in a while. If you have issues like this frequently maybe you should send screens of places where defectors get stuck, so Devs can check those areas and how pathing is working in those places.

[Kyryo]

Green.. my boi. 

10 posts in 1 hour, are you trying to burn the server? XD

[SpicyDinosaur]

No, small issues really don't need to be discussed, because there are a lot of big issues.

 

Things that grind your gears or whatever, you will probably get over. You know what, I had Defections. I also don't really like rescues in sorties, or Lephantis being the assassination in a sortie (add ambulas to that.) Lephantis because it is so frickin tedious, Ambulas because usually you end up with people who don't seem to know how to manage the content, even though he shows up half the time in outside Corpus missions anyway. I really really hate even the concept of onslaughts and refuse to play them at all, while being bitter that the fun content, like Kuvivals, have the same boring rewards while they push bugged crap down our throat and throw mandatory items (if you want max MR anyway) in them to try to force us to play.

 

Anyway, I consider these not particularly large problems. I mean Onslaughts were a big problem for awhile, and for all I know may still be, but I guess that's the joy of ignoring that content completely, I have no idea.

 

Either way, we have been discussing your issue. If your don't like what we are saying, you can..I guess block us.

 

tbh, I've dealt with so many people throwing insults and intentionally agitating me only to have a dogpile of people shouting at me how that's just their opinion etc etc. However, things have been fairly civil in these threads. Appareciate it while you can.

[TheGreenFellow]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

He shows it to you. You aren't skipping the cutscenes and then complaining that the game isn't properly teaching you boss mechanics, are you?

Did you watch the video you linked? He covers his face with full-on armor - you know, the stuff that supposedly makes Sargas Ruk invincible? - then moves away in the strangely twitchy and borky way that I've been complaining about all this while. I don't see how that equates to "Oh, I should look for this dangly bit on this weird contraption and try to hit it as it spins and moves about constantly in unpredictable fashion." It's more consistent to try and hit the thing on his back for that reason - it's closer to the axis around which he seems to rotate.
 

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

By the manner that the Juggernaut RIPS ITS SPINE OPEN. That's a pretty vulnerable region, a sucking chest wound. You also seem to be hung up on the fact that the Juggernaut's shotgun attack is unfair. It totally is, but it has another, much longer, much easier attack that makes it vulnerable for far longer

Spine? It never opens its spine, it just flicks its already-exposed tendrils and shoots at me. The same tendrils that allow me to damage it only when it is attacking in that manner.

As for the chest, yeah, that one is nice and easy to figure out and shoot - but it's an attack that occurs SO rarely as to be not worth considering; I haven't actually seen a Juggernaut use that attack myself in eons now. Maybe that's a bug?
 

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yeah, he was supposed to be replaced with a proper Nef Anyo fight THREE YEARS AGO. DE really got sidetracked on that one

Oof. Yeah...that's a bit too long to leave something sidetracked. DE, get on it!
 

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

...I have no idea how you got any of that in your head.

For one, while I won't call the Alad V fight good, it's not terrible. It follows another trope: big strong boss escorting another weaker boss. There aren't any real tells, but your options are limited and you'll run out of options quickly and everyone in the Dark Souls fandom keeps telling that's acceptable design. Shooting Zanuka doesn't work so you shoot Alad V. Once Alad V is down you can shoot Zanuka. I have no idea where you got "let Alad V get revived" into your head, that is the exact opposite of what you are supposed to do

Alternatively you could get a bonus by watching promotional material that outright tells you how to beat the boss, though that's really only an acceptable answer when the trailer first comes out

Well, it's what Zanuka immediately does when I take out Alad V, and it usually occurs so quickly that there's not much else I *can* do, I guess, and usually I notice Zanuka is vulnerable (noticably smaller shield bar, no more armor, etc.) after it happens a couple times. @Rambit23Z I dunno how it'd occur to me to stop shooting Alad once his shields are down to then shoot at the Zanuka, either...where else in the game would you take down a shield and then stop there? TIL I guess, but it just goes to prove my original point: it's *not* intuitive!

(I haven't played Dark Souls, mind you)

[TheGreenFellow]

The difficulty progression of mastery tests often makes no sense. For instance, Defense for 5 waves is way easier than some other earlier tests.

To me, it felt like the stealth/detection MR tests are much too difficult without specific frames. It's easier now that I know I can do practice runs first, but still...maybe push these tests to higher mastery ranks?

And, the MR20 test in particular irked me. If you don't know that shift+space means you boost even faster in Archwing, it's all but impossible - yet if you are "in the know" (I keep having to say this phrase!) - it's incredibly easy even with slowest archwing, just by knowing that little thing. Mind you there's no hint or tutorial ever given to tell the player how archwing maneuvers work. Additionally, the ring on the left is a complete noob-trap; it feels like it's *just* there to catch players out to make them fail the time limit, and when the penalty of a test can be a 24 hour waiting period, I think that's not cool, to say the least.

Edited June 3, 2018 by TheGreenGunner

[Rambit23Z]

4 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

I dunno how it'd occur to me to stop shooting Alad once his shields are down to then shoot at the Zanuka, either...where else in the game would you take down a shield and then stop there? TIL I guess, but it just goes to prove my original point: it's *not* intuitive!

(I haven't played Dark Souls, mind you)

Funnily enough, I can't even say if I think it's intuitive or not. It's been so long since that fight was added that I can't remember how I figured it out.

[SpicyDinosaur]

I just unload the supra vandal or other bullet hose on the jugg and honestly, most fast firing guns destroy it. I feel like it's been nerfed. 😕 But what I came here to post was @TheGreenGunner I don't know which thread you started but maybe save everything to google docs and release your complaints over a period of days or weeks? You don't have to post every. single. irritation. you have in a period of several hours.

[krc473]

23 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Life is not always so convenient. There's any number of reasons a person might have to look away.

The system used to be a forced Extract if you were not paying attention. But people hated it. I believe the issue was along the lines of "what if I forget to pick, and want to stay?". So DE changed it. Now people want it to be forced extract again, because: "what if I was not paying attention and forgot to pick extract?". It was the same with Volt Speed - everyone wanted it to be Opt-in, so DE did it. But people realised they did not like it, so DE made it opt-out. Now people want Opt-in again. DE cannot please everyone. The current system is more in line with allowing squads to stay together, which in a team game is the better option.

23 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

There's no need for there to be such a punititive approach to AFKers, either. Sometimes, stuff just happens and gets in the way, and I'd rather that we not potentially lose *everything* in the mission up to that point as a result.

Personally, I do not care if someone is AFK. Life happens, sometimes you just need a break for 5 minutes. If someone is in the squad, they add to enemies and such (as you said). So I do not see the issue with people being AFK or Leeching. But many other people do. So DE has to do something to punish the people that are AFK. The issue would be that people join the mission, then would not move for 20 minutes - they would still get the rewards. That person contributed nothing to the mission, do they deserve the rewards? Most say no. So DE put systems in place to mitigate the issue.

23 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

can't exactly see why it would have been implemented in that way to start with though.

DE could not do a better system at the time. It was a long, long time ago. It was basically the only option. They changed it relatively quickly I believe. Would you rather be able to play the game and risk losing your rewards, or not be able to play at all?

Edited June 3, 2018 by krc473

[TheGreenFellow]

As per title. I was astounded at the difficulty of what's termed out-of-game as the "T4 Void missions". And I was quite perturbed to discover that these missions, without any warning or inkling to the player whatsoever, gives enemies a whopping 200% damage modifier.

Talk about excessive! High-level Void enemies can already down many frames in one hit or burst (Corpus shotguns and Grineer gorgons), do you really need to give them even *more* damage on top of that?

This means level 40 bombards can instantly kill fully-modded sentinels, and destroy my fully-kitted Rhino's Iron Skin in 1 hit. Same with those shotguns.

If you want to add challenge to these particular nodes, then first, *warn* the player that these nodes are different from all other nodes in the game. And secondly, please pick something besides giving the enemy so much damage that they can instagib followers and the players themselves.

P.S. For anybody caring about forum functionality, apparently the "%" does not work when placed in titles....

Edited June 3, 2018 by TheGreenGunner

[Dark_RRiderr]

Wouldnt this topic be better in bug forums section?

[TheGreenFellow]

28 minutes ago, krc473 said:

On my first attempt at them I successfully stealthed the rooms, with a Saryn. It took under 10 - 15 minutes. I had not viewed anything prior to attempting them. Just went in and did it. There was no challenge. If you think people must view videos/guides prior to attempting them, I think you need to reconsider. Sure, I was not a new player, I had done many other spy missions before it. But it was still my first run through on that mission.

How do you propose DE improves these spy rooms? How would you change them to be more intuitive? How would you maintain a challenge?

I do not want a sign telling me how to complete the puzzle room. The point is that you figure it out. I do agree though, there is a general lack of information provided on most things. I do not think Spy rooms are one of those things.

You had an experience that was altogether different from mine, then - though, I'd argue Saryn is a 'stealth' frame by virtue of being able to kill all enemies on the map without having to see them. 😛 (Kinda why I do not understand at all the recent uproar over her changes, which to me were quite clearly buffs and continue to be so...just bizarre)

I admit, you've caught me out on the specifics of what I'd like to do with these spy rooms - I don't know. I don't have that kind of solution prepared here, all I had was my notepad here with a list of feedback that I'm crossing off little by little.
But, one idea that comes to the top of my mind right now is the way Assassin's Creed & Prince of Persia provide visual cues on how to progress through levels, giving little scrapes or bits of moss or whatnot to areas that you can scale or ought to go through. There's ways to provide subtle hints, I feel, that wouldn't be too obvious - no signposts saying "Solution here!" - and could give the player a better idea of where to look or go. Plus, if we're going as far as redesigning the levels rather than making small changes, anything is possible!

[Dark_RRiderr]

Actually makes sence sometimes they spawn in cleaned areas, there are often doors that are closed to the players, they might be used by the bots ;)

Cryo barrels are meaned to be annoying i think :D

Yeah the Dens alerting the enemy, can be annoying. But unlimited spawns? Maybe a bug didnt had that before

[Faulcun]

Now imagine us running hour long survivals and 100 wave defenses when T4 keys were still a thing. Good times with clan members!

ALL of the corrupted enemies on all of the void missions have always dealt more damage for as long as i can remember. You may have just not noticed on lower levels until you got roflstomped.

But out of all the things in this game lacking in-game information or tutorials....

So anyways, now that you know this information... what are you gonna do about it?

From my personal experience, i can give the tip that all of the corrupted enemies have projectile weapons. Good footwork will keep you alive better than any iron skin can.

 

[TheGreenFellow]

40 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

You can also use Loki, just watch his timer and hide from anything that would see you when you about ti vis, that is not too much imo, I use Ivara because I've done most of them enough where it's just a matter of being lazy tbh. As for booting you, yes I have screwed around that long, and actually I recall it warning me and giving me a timer of like 30 seconds. I'm not sure if you are not paying enough attention or some boot within those time. But yes, it you screw around for THAT long, I guess you'd have to worry about that (felt like longer than 20 mins to me, are you guessing or did you time it, since you seem to have a varying range.)

So you basically want everything to be rote and similar enough that a new player could play it? No thanks.

There's kid MMOs that probably have that, if it becomes overwhelming tbh. I think there's both a Disney and Looney Tunes one. Also a Hello Kitty one. If they make a Pusheen or Hamtaro one, Imma switch games though, I have no doubt I will be missed by all. 😉

Also what does "in the know" mean, like we are all part of a secret club? Or all watched the same video to learn. I don't generally watch videos for anything. Sometimes for builds etc if I am unsure on what to make of them, then I usually modify that anyway. I've looked at guides for Kurias after finding a bunch on my own or because people happened to mark them during a mission.

Plus, if you consider yourself a new player but sped past all that quest content, it seems like you are perfectly capable of learning to adapt. Or did you get carried to this, if you got carried, well the content is above your level anyway.

Loki does work, to an extent; that's the frame I used up until getting Ivara, typically. Not being able to pass through laser barriers is a bit of a problem when they're so commonplace, though, and his clone has a bad habit of alerting all enemies in the area.

I did not say "rote and similar", but - going to the Lua spy missions here - having things like the time portals, or moving explosive containers through pipes, appear at least *once* elsewhere in the game in *any* kind of fashion would go a long way to giving the player the idea of "Oh, so *that's* how I interact with the puzzle".

When the sensation is like using an etch-and-sketch whilst blindfolded...that ceases to be a puzzle and is just blindly fumbling around.

Regarding "in the know" - more or less, yes, being part of the club of having foreknowledge. It greatly changes one's perspective if you have knowledge on a thing whilst experiencing it, and it's all-too-common a mistake in the video gaming industry as a whole that game developers don't take a step back and put themselves into the shoes of someone experiencing their creation for the first time. And it affects players as well; people who have been here a long time, or already know the answers to mysteries and questions, are going to have a very different perspective on what these Spy rooms feel like, for instance, compared to someone trying to get into it for the first time.

I myself generally solo'd as much content as I could, and I put the quest content off wayyyy longer than I ought to have as a result really.

Edited June 3, 2018 by TheGreenGunner

[SpicyDinosaur]

Please, seriously, stop spamming my feed. I know you mean well, but here is a tip, if something is too hard for you, try practicing. Dying in this game is not a game ending experience. 

 

Dear god, also, there are mods, even a primed one you can get if you are patient, that will rez your sentinel, 3xs with the primed one. Hell use the infested sent and you can get a mod that rezzes it in 90 secs if it dies. 

 

Also, I mean, complaining about sent deaths? Really? And level 40 mobs? Did you rush through all the quests without even -trying- the rest of the game? Props to you for managing them but maybe go back and practice.

[tprx]

Beside practicing in the relay, I always look the test up before practice. Once I can reliably do it, I go for the test.

Here's a page that gives you the heads up: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Mastery_Rank

[Dark_RRiderr]

You think Saryn and killing everything is stealth? Try it on sorties if they are level 100 and eximus stronghold... wouldnt work that way of stealth. But then just not beeing seen works wonders to dont raise alarms.

I like that you have to look yourself on Spy missions instead of that children help system with waypoints that really noone needs.

Bysides i find Lua Spy mission to be more annoying then Kuva.

If its to hard, get better, why should everything adept to you? (yeah who sits in the glass house shouldnt throw with stones, im sometimes not better)

About Saryn buffs, well some say they buffed Ember as well, i just know with an Ignis together with my setup i could use ember even till level 70 enemys or 80s (but thats the absolute limit), now i cant anymore after the change.... funny that she is NOW only good for everything below level 30 farming in fact...

[ChickenDrawsDogs]

I think the T4 missions like Mot are designed to allow for relatively fast leveling-up as well as encourage cooperative gameplay. Get a Slow Nova/Saryn in the squad and they become a breeze. If you're going solo, consider camping in areas with just 1 entrance (which are ALWAYS your start point, either the room with 1 big door or the tube). Bring weapons that can inflict damage on multiple enemies at once (Opticor, Amprex for example, mod them for Corrosive/Viral damage).

If you prefer a more head-on approach, stick with me on this: Atlas is an absolutely devastating warframe to bring along. Why? Modded for efficiency, moderate strength (150-170%) and range, he can petrify waves and waves of enemies and pulverize them with Landslide (invulnerability while attacking, while the third punch in the combo is a monster that can grind petrified lvl 100 enemies to dust, shatter Corrupted Nullifiers' shield if you hit the enemies AROUND them, or send the walking ones flying, giving you the chance to escape in a pinch or counterattack), plus, think about the 1500 stone armor bonus and the healing, though be careful when casting Petrify, because Atlas is vulnerable in that split 1 second casting animation.

[TARINunit9]

26 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Did you watch the video you linked? He covers his face with full-on armor - you know, the stuff that supposedly makes Sargas Ruk invincible?

If anything, that reinforces my point. If you've fought Ruk before Hek, you'll recognize armor parts opening and closing as a thing that can happen. Sure enough, this is exactly what Hek does once you encounter him: if your eyes are still on his face, you'll see his face armor open up, exposing his skin, complete with particle effect. Just like Ruk did

28 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Spine? It never opens its spine

Yes it does, it tears its back open to do both its shotgun and its poison rain attacks. You can very clearly see it going from a rounded but scarred hunchback to a gaping open mouth-like wound

[TheGreenFellow]

38 minutes ago, ReinAxefury said:

This has been an issue since this mode was introduced, sometimes defectors would get stuck and unable to move, now its been less frequent and troublesome than it used to, at least i haven't experienced myself any issues on Defection in a while. If you have issues like this frequently maybe you should send screens of places where defectors get stuck, so Devs can check those areas and how pathing is working in those places.

 

12 minutes ago, Dark_RRiderr said:

Wouldnt this topic be better in bug forums section?

Perhaps it would be, if I had specifics to offer, but this is just a more in-general thing that I think DE could look at, level & mission design-wise, to prevent Defection from feeling like a shot in the dark as to whether or not you'll be able to complete the mission. I do admit, though, it could help them more directly if I did have those specifics to offer in the form of bug reports.

[SpicyDinosaur]

I'm glad I am psychic and play this game with "fore-knowledge" or it would be waaay to hard, what am Im supposed to do, try a mission multiple times until I get good at it? Join a clan who has experienced people who can help me?

 

I think I'd just post 50 or more posts about everything I even slightly dislike so that everyone gets to know how I feel about every issue in the game. 🙄

[Dark_RRiderr]

Or just a screenshot, with also text of information of things like what you did before it happened, what you did while it happened, what you tried to fix it. How many Squads got rescued, which map was it, which tileset (well at least a description of it) and just as much information as you can remember.

Still do understand why you posted it here though

[TARINunit9]

6 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

So anyways, now that you know this information... what are you gonna do about it?

Offer feedback to let the devs know that this feature is rather rudely shoved in the player's face but the only way to know how it works is to randomly stumble upon it in the wiki and that isn't exactly acceptable game design? Because that's what he sounds like he's doing to me, only to get flanked by people like this:

3 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

if something is too hard for you, try practicing

Difficulty in and of itself isn't his problem, it's the game not telling him "By the way, enemies in T4 have a 300% damage multiplier" beforehand. If the game did tell him and THEN he complains anyway, then he needs to git gud

[SpicyDinosaur]

Oooh again, basically hand-holding should be a par tof the game. Of course. We aren't allowed challenge.

 

Also, per this person, (don't know their gender,) We all came into the game with some sot of foreknowledge That nobody filled me in on. I feel really left out, guys.