My Feedback on Missions and Levels in Warframe

[GinKenshin]

11 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

You had an experience that was altogether different from mine, then - though, I'd argue Saryn is a 'stealth' frame by virtue of being able to kill all enemies on the map without having to see them. 😛 (Kinda why I do not understand at all the recent uproar over her changes, which to me were quite clearly buffs and continue to be so...just bizarre)

I admit, you've caught me out on the specifics of what I'd like to do with these spy rooms - I don't know. I don't have that kind of solution prepared here, all I had was my notepad here with a list of feedback that I'm crossing off little by little.
But, one idea that comes to the top of my mind right now is the way Assassin's Creed & Prince of Persia provide visual cues on how to progress through levels, giving little scrapes or bits of moss or whatnot to areas that you can scale or ought to go through. There's ways to provide subtle hints, I feel, that wouldn't be too obvious - no signposts saying "Solution here!" - and could give the player a better idea of where to look or go. Plus, if we're going as far as redesigning the levels rather than making small changes, anything is possible!

Well, Warframe aren’t those games so tough luck....and if you really look better, instead of just doing it once or a few times and going to your note pad to write the ‘feedback’ you’ll see that in most cases there is a ‘hidden marker’ of where you should go next, or if there’s a hidden path...etc 

 

  Like with the rest of your threads, and prob the next ones you’re gonna do, you’re trying to make this game something it isn’t and giving feedback or stuff from your experience only, thinking that everyone does it too.....if you watched a video for your first time, how do you know it’s ‘not intuitive’? Since you didn’t just do it by yourself? 

 

  Again, please do research and reconsider some of these feedback of yours 

[krc473]

8 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

But, one idea that comes to the top of my mind right now is the way Assassin's Creed & Prince of Persia provide visual cues on how to progress through levels, giving little scrapes or bits of moss or whatnot to areas that you can scale or ought to go through. There's ways to provide subtle hints, I feel, that wouldn't be too obvious - no signposts saying "Solution here!" - and could give the player a better idea of where to look or go. Plus, if we're going as far as redesigning the levels rather than making small changes, anything is possible!

Yes, they could do something like that. But there are multiple ways to do the rooms. Which do DE provide clues on? 

 

I would say there are many other games that have puzzles without providing clues. Example: push these five buttons X number of times/in X order to get a bridge to lower. This is done by trial and error. You can tell when you are getting closer to the goal. Same with spy rooms - as you move around the room(s) you get closer to the target. For me, I think all the Spy rooms are just fine. I do not think they need to be adjusted. But, I have done them hundreds/thousands of times.

 

12 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

I admit, you've caught me out on the specifics of what I'd like to do with these spy rooms - I don't know. I don't have that kind of solution prepared here, all I had was my notepad here with a list of feedback that I'm crossing off little by little.

Generally, I would say having a couple of rough suggestions on how DE should change the issue would benefit your argument. "I do not like feature X, because of Y" is great an all. But if you can also say "I think if DE added C feature, or V mechanic, the mission would be improved". It helps people to understand exactly where you are going with your feedback.

 

Just saying "they are not intuitive, and DE needs to fix it" is less useful as saying something like: "I think DE should add some environmental queues, like in the AC series. That would make the mission more intuitive". Once you reference something (like AC) people can relate more to what you are suggesting. 

[TheGreenFellow]

30 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I just unload the supra vandal or other bullet hose on the jugg and honestly, most fast firing guns destroy it. I feel like it's been nerfed. 😕 But what I came here to post was @TheGreenGunner I don't know which thread you started but maybe save everything to google docs and release your complaints over a period of days or weeks? You don't have to post every. single. irritation. you have in a period of several hours.

Sure, spray and pray tends to be what you have to do as a result of how the Juggernaut works...but that doesn't make it a good design or mean that it should be left unchanged. 😛

Regarding how and when I give my feedback, I really do not understand why you and so many others take it personally that I dare to offer it all at once. Why should I wait days and weeks? What is it about this that offends people? If you don't want to listen to feedback, then don't inhabit this part of the forums! Simple!

In the meantime, I am going to continue freely providing my feedback when it's convenient for me to do so, all in a row if I so deem it. It's not going to break the forums, it's not going to kill anybody, and it will very likely get hidden under a few pages of other bits of feedback in a day or two. So chill out!
 

8 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

If anything, that reinforces my point. If you've fought Ruk before Hek, you'll recognize armor parts opening and closing as a thing that can happen. Sure enough, this is exactly what Hek does once you encounter him: if your eyes are still on his face, you'll see his face armor open up, exposing his skin, complete with particle effect. Just like Ruk did

Yes it does, it tears its back open to do both its shotgun and its poison rain attacks. You can very clearly see it going from a rounded but scarred hunchback to a gaping open mouth-like wound

Except that Ruk is a slowly-moving, mostly stationary target that clearly and openly displays those vulnerabilities for you through slow and obvious animations. Vay Hek just kind of hovers and flicks around wildly and his bits glow now and then. I dunno how you are slowing Vay Hek down or getting close enough that you can actually see his face.

Regarding the Juggernaut, again, I don't know how you're seeing it in slow motion, but its spine attack lasts a split second for me. By all appearances to me it comes from its already exposed tendrils on its back, and that's where I spray and pray to damage it when it does the spine attack. (Plus, I suppose I'm usually not getting that close when a Juggernaut is around. I prefer to keep my Sentinel alive if at all possible, thank-you very much!)

Edited June 3, 2018 by TheGreenGunner

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Regarding the Juggernaut, again, I don't know how you're seeing it in slow motion, but its spine attack lasts a split second for me. By all appearances to me it comes from its already exposed tendrils on its back, and that's where I spray and pray to damage it when it does the spine attack. (Plus, I suppose I'm usually not getting that close when a Juggernaut is around. I prefer to keep my Sentinel alive if at all possible, thank-you very much!)

You clearly didn't read my post where I said he rips his spine open for TWO attacks, one of which is VERY SLOW

[SpicyDinosaur]

Yea, again having worked as a game admin/programmer (for a MUD, I realize there are many many differences) having someone complain randomly without giving any sort of detailed feedback at all on how things should be changed...that gets filed in the trash.

[TheGreenFellow]

43 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

No, small issues really don't need to be discussed, because there are a lot of big issues. <snip>

tbh, I've dealt with so many people throwing insults and intentionally agitating me only to have a dogpile of people shouting at me how that's just their opinion etc etc. However, things have been fairly civil in these threads. Appareciate it while you can.

We clearly disagree on what "Feedback" means and what it's for. If you don't want to discuss the small issues I bring up, then don't!

I already do put up with or 'get over' the issues I raise here, each and every day I continue to play Warframe; just because we can live with something the way it is now, does not mean it can't change or be improved in the future.

And you yourself are fairly civil, others have not been so; if taken as whole, this reactionary behavior is what's considered 'civil' on these forums, I fear for the jobs the moderators have to do around here on a daily basis....

[SpicyDinosaur]

Maybe they mean knowing the location of the wiki is being "in the know" Because I have yet to figure this phrase or the OP's suspicion about the rest of us. Just getting tired of more and more threads. Can you like condense the rest of your notepad into one post?

 

Also, did you check the controls when you started playing? There's like an entire list of archwing controls you can customize. I don't know this because I am "in the know" but because I am left handed and have to change all controls.

 

Or wait, maybe it's left-handed people that are these "in the know" VIP members of the game.

[GinKenshin]

There is no progression, they come up with these stuff on the fly. They can’t change it either because that’s one of the most redundant things they can do 

 

  Also, tutorial for AW movement now.....dude, please, just let people play the damn game and figure it out. If you don’t like that this is not the game for you 

[Dark_RRiderr]

200 % more? I dont know if its really that much but yeah, they are corrupted, they are supposed to be stronger versions of the standard one so of course they deal more damage.

And a level 40 already gives you trouble? You dont wanna face sortie enemys then...

I think you should maybe contact me ingame and we take a look at how you set up your warframes and weapons with the mods you got... because level 40 corrupted bombards arent THAT strong they down everyone so fast. I cant speak of my iron skin since its 5500 armor strength (check it on abilitys and tell me your strength what it shows you there)

It doesnt sound like you play for so long and just started a little while ago, if you need help dont say "nerf down the enemy because they are to hard for me" ask in chat about advise im very sure people will help you (well, some might first try to fool you but after that even they might help)

That comes from me that complains about the third eidolons emp spam and that something needs to be done about it. This looks like someone holding a mirrow to me to make me see how it looks like if i complain about it lol

Edit: I just noticed damn, you started at the same time that i started on october 2017. I think you should really contact me ingame and we figure out whats wrong if you really have trouble with this enemys.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Dark_RRiderr

[TheGreenFellow]

32 minutes ago, krc473 said:

The system used to be a forced Extract if you were not paying attention. But people hated it. I believe the issue was along the lines of "what if I forget to pick, and want to stay?". So DE changed it. Now people want it to be forced extract again, because: "what if I was not paying attention and forgot to pick extract?". It was the same with Volt Speed - everyone wanted it to be Opt-in, so DE did it. But people realised they did not like it, so DE made it opt-out. Now people want Opt-in again. DE cannot please everyone. The current system is more in line with allowing squads to stay together, which in a team game is the better option.

Personally, I do not care if someone is AFK. Life happens, sometimes you just need a break for 5 minutes. If someone is in the squad, they add to enemies and such (as you said). So I do not see the issue with people being AFK or Leeching. But many other people do. So DE has to do something to punish the people that are AFK. The issue would be that people join the mission, then would not move for 20 minutes - they would still get the rewards. That person contributed nothing to the mission, do they deserve the rewards? Most say no. So DE put systems in place to mitigate the issue.

DE could not do a better system at the time. It was a long, long time ago. It was basically the only option. They changed it relatively quickly I believe. Would you rather be able to play the game and risk losing your rewards, or not be able to play at all?

So it used to be the way that I'd prefer? That's disheartening. And sure, you might not please everyone, but I feel like there's ways to find a middle ground, thinking out of the box if necessary. (Volt's thing sounds silly to me, though - that's a team buff no matter what way you slice it, why would you want it to be optional? Meh.)

And AFK-adding to enemies can tend be a problem in difficult missions, ya know! If it were the way I'd prefer, an AFK person wouldn't get to stand there for 20 minutes, not unless they were purposefully leeching, which can be handled by the players themselves whether through leaving the mission or filing a report if they feel strongly about it.

I don't really subscribe to the idea that it's the 'only' option, or that things must be one extreme or the other.

[SpicyDinosaur]

Actually, at this point, I want you to seriously slow down on the posting. Put all your "feedback" in google docs, and spread the timing out over at least a period of days for the love of all that is good and right in the world.

 

I haven't dived into all your threads yet, I'm not 100% sure I could catch ALL of them, but some advice, either save the notepad file or put all of this on google docs where you can add stuff regularly if you think if anything, and spread it out.

 

Also, add solutions if you don't want your input trashed. I mean by the devs, not by other people. 

 

ALSO people have gone out of their way to try and explain and help you understand how best to go about things you are confused about. But you keep assuming we are all part of the some secret club, if we are, I hope I get a membership card and a decoder ring personally.

[TheGreenFellow]

14 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

You clearly didn't read my post where I said he rips his spine open for TWO attacks, one of which is VERY SLOW

Then that just circles back to what I said about his slow attacks not appearing often enough to matter. Also, kind of hard to see the Juggernaut through thick clouds of green smoke, most times, just sayin'. 😛

[Dark_RRiderr]

Yeah i know what you mean, sometimes i thought on higher level mastery tests "HOLY S#&amp;&#036; this was EASY and fast LOL" while on others i needed to prepare more carefully after i saw the test in practice mode.

Also strongly agree on the Arkwing needs some SHORT tooltip tutorial because if friends didnt told me how to use shift to boost accelerate faster, together with space boosting and some other minor tricks it would have been seriously pissing off on your very first time flying the ark wing in the first ark wing quest mission. A short description wouldnt hurt on that one if you never flew on ingame and dont got friends telling you about the controls.

Still i love the Mastery tests, hope they include some mini mission modes alike this.... actually.... sounds like a plan given me another of my typical "ideas noone asked for" topics in forum. Some kind of mini mission modes that maybe even players can create as challanges for others (i would be even ok with DE creating a S#&amp;&#036;ton of different mini missions all with different conditions much like in the mastery missions, would add a REAL challange if you chain them up)

Hell yeah instead of Sanctuary Onslaught why not having something alike it but instead of ONLY killing around the entire mission type changes, and the conditions also change after every "portal" THAT would be a nice challange if you ask me. (Just without that damn keeping up the killing procentage but could be added as a condition) and with the option of extracting after 5 mini missions it just asks if you want to go on or stay. A challange of adepting to different situations no matter what warframe you got and what weapons you got. MAYBE i write something like that down later not sure yet lol

[Dark_RRiderr]

I wonder what would have happened if you didnt checked somewhere else in the internet and if you still would wander around planlessly thinking about what to do... :D

[TheGreenFellow]

(last one for Missions & Levels from my personal list, guys, you can breathe! I'll try to condense my feedback more if I can for warframes, weapons, and general....)

Overall, I felt like the Rathuum grind is obnoxius, needing to obtain these points and expend them each time you wish to face Kela de Thaym, who has multiple exclusive mods and blueprints to obtain, meaning you need to go and repeat her assassination more than you would other bosses...and thus have to go through the point-collection grind more than you might normally anticipate. And learning I have to expend the points to get more points is also kind of a "What, come on, really?" moment. I'd prefer it contain less of this obnoxiousness.

It's possibly been changed since I was last there - apologies if it has been fixed - but if another player doesn't have enough points for Rathuum, what I've experienced is that the game does not warn you, and just still sends you into mission without said player (though apparently they remain in the squad somehow). Rather inconvenient, no?

The enemies in the Rathuum-point-collection nodes are also, in a few ways, more threatening than Kela herself - insta-death hammer smash attacks, randomly turning invulnerable, spawning all willy-nilly, it's...a frustrating experience to play through. Tack on the prior issue to this one and you double the inconvenient frustration!

And as a last tidbit, joining a match in progress = you (can) die instantly during the "intro cam-over" sequence. Not cool!

[TheGreenFellow]

43 minutes ago, Dark_RRiderr said:

Actually makes sence sometimes they spawn in cleaned areas, there are often doors that are closed to the players, they might be used by the bots 😉

Cryo barrels are meaned to be annoying i think 😄

Yeah the Dens alerting the enemy, can be annoying. But unlimited spawns? Maybe a bug didnt had that before

Are the Den spawns actually limited? I've never sat down to try and count, all I really know is that during Mobile Defense and other similar mission types, it's all too easy to find yourself swarmed by horde after horde of Kubrows that originate from a Den tucked away somewhere in the tile. If it is limited in number, then it's far too high to be believable, unless Kubrows are also subterranean burrowers. 😛

[Dark_RRiderr]

I imagine this on hoth you on rebel side as infantry and someone saying "Shoot on the AT-AT Walkers!" you: "Where are they?" the AT-AT already right in front of you stomping you with its feet since you werent able to see this huge as 4 legged walker coming close to you.

To be honest i for a long time didnt even noticed that weakspot on top of the juggernaut in the middle myself if it was shooting/about to shoot its indeed a very good weakspot. You could also try ember with her fourth ability and an ignis with good mods on it and flame damage and flame rings of ember and "stun" him slightly while burning him down over a while, worked pretty will, but didnt played with ember against juggernauts in the recent weeks/months after her changes, so not sure if it still works

[Dark_RRiderr]

I think i remember a bug about this that i read about in bug section of forums about unlimited kubrow spawn after the Den is destroyed. Could be that. Think sometimes they spawn like 3 or so kubrow after destruction but thats about it.

[Praesagium]

200% damage its tankeable with some frames/mods, arcanes even stealth frames, you just need more practice. Nothing more fun that doing survivals with corrupted vor and his pals.

But of course. if you speedrun the startmap you will find it difficult because you will not have mods, frames, weapons, etc.

[Praesagium]

Dunno, i did my stealth mr test with my excal and my skana, pretty easy if you ask me.

Now, if you talk about mr 20 test and above, i supouse you have time playing and you know every mission in the game and the controls for the right mode (aw, frame, operator).

[TheGreenFellow]

39 minutes ago, Dark_RRiderr said:

You think Saryn and killing everything is stealth? Try it on sorties if they are level 100 and eximus stronghold... wouldnt work that way of stealth. But then just not beeing seen works wonders to dont raise alarms.

I like that you have to look yourself on Spy missions instead of that children help system with waypoints that really noone needs.

Bysides i find Lua Spy mission to be more annoying then Kuva.

If its to hard, get better, why should everything adept to you? (yeah who sits in the glass house shouldnt throw with stones, im sometimes not better)

About Saryn buffs, well some say they buffed Ember as well, i just know with an Ignis together with my setup i could use ember even till level 70 enemys or 80s (but thats the absolute limit), now i cant anymore after the change.... funny that she is NOW only good for everything below level 30 farming in fact...

Regarding Saryn - I mean, with the way she is now, I'd happily take her into the level 100 Eximus sortie. Infinitely scaling corrosive & viral proc damage on demand with 280% range = I can kill all the things with a single press of my 1 and 3, maybe with a 4 thrown in here or there if I feel like I have Energy to burn (and this is getting into a discussion that would have to occur over in the Warframe feedback area)....Suffice it to say that yes, I anticipate Saryn doing quite well if you wish to be stealthy by means of simply killing everything!

And yes, having to figure out a puzzle oneself is a good thing - but you must first be able to interact with that puzzle, and I didn't feel that sensation when first encountering Kuva Spy (or Lua Spy for that matter). Again I'll point to Assassin's Creed & Prince of Persia for examples of having challenging puzzles you need to figure out yourself, but do a good job of also making the puzzles interactable and intuitive.

So it's not at all about whether it's too "hard", here.

[TheGreenFellow]

41 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I'm glad I am psychic and play this game with "fore-knowledge" or it would be waaay to hard, what am Im supposed to do, try a mission multiple times until I get good at it? Join a clan who has experienced people who can help me?

 

I think I'd just post 50 or more posts about everything I even slightly dislike so that everyone gets to know how I feel about every issue in the game. 🙄

You are getting much too defensive and taking things far too personal, not to mention starting to derail discussion thoroughly. I'd appreciate it if you either kept your prior candor or otherwise, if you don't like dealing with feedback, simply not doing so at all.

[Dark_RRiderr]

I could actually take you into the simulacrum and make you level 100 eximus enemys if you want...

Just hard to believe that you can so easy deal with level 100 eximus if you say a level 40 corrupted bombard is already giving you trouble from what it sounds like...

Define "more interactable and intuitive" ?

[TheGreenFellow]

38 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Yes, they could do something like that. But there are multiple ways to do the rooms. Which do DE provide clues on? 

 

I would say there are many other games that have puzzles without providing clues. Example: push these five buttons X number of times/in X order to get a bridge to lower. This is done by trial and error. You can tell when you are getting closer to the goal. Same with spy rooms - as you move around the room(s) you get closer to the target. For me, I think all the Spy rooms are just fine. I do not think they need to be adjusted. But, I have done them hundreds/thousands of times.

 

Generally, I would say having a couple of rough suggestions on how DE should change the issue would benefit your argument. "I do not like feature X, because of Y" is great an all. But if you can also say "I think if DE added C feature, or V mechanic, the mission would be improved". It helps people to understand exactly where you are going with your feedback.

 

Just saying "they are not intuitive, and DE needs to fix it" is less useful as saying something like: "I think DE should add some environmental queues, like in the AC series. That would make the mission more intuitive". Once you reference something (like AC) people can relate more to what you are suggesting. 

Provide clues for all of the ways! That would, in a sense, add to the challenge - you might see clues leading in two different directions, or that are part of two different paths while being near to each other. Just so long as it gives the sense of "Hey, come over here, you can interact with the puzzle this way", that's sufficient!

Personally speaking, a puzzle that's a brute-force code break to get a bridge to lower sounds like awful and horrid design to me. If you're talking about a puzzle that shows some signs of progression when you get a thing right, that's a little different from a simple brute-force code, and that is fine - so long as the ways to interact with the things is apparent to the player. (And, regarding Spy rooms here, it's often the case you get further away from the goal before you get closer, but I digress!)

And, like, I did acknowledge you guys already where more specific feedback could help more. I just also do see where I'd like them to hear the overall message that, with spy vaults in particular (as with many other parts of Mission/Level design), I feel that design-wise, these creations are not being made with the perspective of "What does this look like to a new player unfamiliar with everything?"; in a word, a lack of intuitivity. That's all!

[Dark_RRiderr]

Also why dont you edit your posts instead of writing THREE new posts in the same topic and mostly 2 posts after each other? :D

Edit (here thats what you do lol): New and unfamiliar with everything? You only get to Kuva Fortress Spy missions after you are already familiar with the game

Edited June 3, 2018 by Dark_RRiderr