My Feedback on Missions and Levels in Warframe

[Faulcun]

5 hours ago, C4STL3 said:

Your post confuses me. I have no idea what "meta cheese" you are talking about, I am unaware of what makes a "classic" warframe. Nor am I going to put in the effort to understand what makes one as it is unimportant.  Kind of makes it sound like the ones you mentioned need periodic carburetor cleaning, get five gallons to the mile and have problems starting in cold weather. 

Id be happy to explain.

See, players will mod a frame in such a way to, for lack of a better word, exploit a particular feature of a power that ultimately trivializes the game to the point that people are standing around rather than playing. For example, banshee's quake would allow the whole team to AFK for long periods of time while the game played itself. They call that "meta", or the most efficient way to play the game.... and then claim the devs made it that way, so it must be the intended way to play. Most of it usually ends up getting nerffed into the ground and those players end up crying about it.

The classic warframes are the ones that were introduced early in the game. They had the most unique powers and differences from one another. Most of the newer frames introduced now usually have some kind of power rehash from an older frame. I mean lets face it.... theres only so many ideas for super powers that are useful in a game like this, so i can understand that. 

Another big difference is that a majority of older frames did not come with some kind of power to mitigate incoming damage directly, or regenerate health, or invulnerability.  So in order to play those frames at high level, you had to spend some time with them learning how to not die every 10s. This is actually a really big problem in this game, because there is no focus on natural progression of players' skills. For example, mastery tests are a complete joke and do not require mastery of anything at all. This means that players have to make a conscious effort to get better on their own. 

Instead, players gravitate to frames like Rhino because of abilities like Iron Skin, or what I like to call "iron crutch", because it allows them to be as reckless as possible without dying for the majority of the starchart. It gives players a false sense of accomplishment, or security, or skill because they've played the game for so many hours now and they never die..... until they do.

Then threads like this get started because it cant possibly be their fault... they are too good at this game now... they never die. So it must be something wrong with the game, right?

Wrong.

So players like myself end up coming here and telling them the truth they dont want to hear, and get called an elitist a-hole in the process. At least some of us offer to actually help in game. At that point, the player has a choice to make whether to take up that offer for help and learn the skills they are lacking, or ignore the offer and continue down their current path which will ultimately lead them right back here again.

[SpicyDinosaur]

Okay not going to read every thread + every post because there are sooo many. Too much work.

 

I will attempt one last try.

 

You know what I did when I got stuck in any video game I played, well originally I called the Nintendo help line and wow that was expensive, I had to get my parents' permission, then god forbid it just shoved you into a harder part...anyway that's irrelevant.

 

What I do now that the internet exists, and have since people began using it enough that things like prodigy and AOL etc couldn't scam you for money/per min if you used it, and my parents learned to get another internet provider, (note they still use AOL for every other frickin thing, I didn't even know that was possible,) 

 

Okay back on point, sorry, reminiscing. Got that looong beep sound going in my brain now. Half of you know wtf I'm talking about, the other half don't know about rotary dials. (I'm looking at you Peter, I know you're way below the age requirement for this game!)

 

Has this "lightened the tone" of my post yet enough that my endless bounty of knowledge as one who is "In the Know" will be of use and accepted? I hope so. 

 

What I do when I am stuck, which happens. I played Mass Effect games up to Andromeda (before it was released, then played that and was pissed when they released no DLCs etc because...okay sidetracked again) and this was at the time the first time I had really dealt with any sort of FPS games? I played JRPGs like my entire life, and fighting games, which I was terrible at, unless I got my sister backed into the wall and kicked her over and over, but that technique was used against me just as much, (GTH with your frickin electricity, Meghan!) So first encounter that I had trouble, I got my bf to do it for me because I saved at kind of a rough spot if you are a beginner.

 

I didn't go to EA at that point with a list of demands (would have been irrelevant with the release date, but follow me here,) I didn't do it anytime I got stuck, or if I made sure I did AAALL the sidequests, or wanted to see the romance parts for all the characters in each of the games without replaying the game over and over.For none of the games did I complain to EA, when Andromeda came out, I was probably the only person on earth that liked it, possibly due to the ridiculous amount of hype. But when they decided to release no DLCs and I had a season pass, I still didn't complain, because it is what it is.

 

The one time I wrote on the forums for EA for Andromeda, was specifically re: a literally game breaking bug. I ended up losing -at least- 10 hours eventually not wanting to wait for them to actually update the game, and just rolled back oooh several planets and played from there. 

 

Now this is an MMO game admittedly, therefore more interactive re: complaints suggestions etc (hypothetically.) It's also apparently in perma-beta, and consider the periodic makeovers that make it unrecognizable to returning players after a year or so, it feels like it. TBH, besides the few things I complain about once and awhile (plat fraud policy!) the only thing that has infuriated me was Onslaught when it was originally released and I refuse to play that at ALL. But I watched my boyfriend get screwed out of so many things worth a ton at the time, still worth a lot I think, and the problems were awful. He was furious enough to post on the forums and he never does that, seriously. That stuff was rage worthy.

 

Don't think I'm like super easy going either. My fail PUB earlier today, the host aborted at the last eidolon because none of them knew how to stay tf alive or just die instead of waiting for a rez, so the trin got the lures killed, (I think they were the host.) Whole thing gets aborted, when we could have all run around and just...gotten more lures to charge with the excess of vonvalysts, esp since no one but me was killing the blooms? OMG I raged so hard. If I run out of time, np. But if people, without a general consensus either kill the eidolon or abort, omg *scream* (That doesn't include at the very beginning, most people shuffle groups until you get a trin at least and not 2 frosts, and 2 lokis all with ignis wraiths.)

 

Of course that whole paragraph was probably super confusing to those not in *cough*The Skulls*cough*

 

Also this post isn't ridiculously long because it contains a secret cipher. So don't bother looking.

 

Anyway, you going on youtube to look for info is not you in that isntance joining this secret club, it's the same resource the rest of us use and is a fairly obvious one. Now, if you would like a link to a ton of helpful discord servers, I have those. They would be a quick way to ask for group or help or sell things. If you want resources for just selling and making plat, I can help you. Most of that is on discord also.

 

To be honest, I found the discord servers I found via asking, and looking, checking the forums, etc. Things like warframe.market and riven.market were totally from talking to other people, many of whom were fairly low MR.

 

Seek and ye shall find. Something gamers have done since that was an option.

 

Now if you've been playing solo mode this whole time, you will be playing at a much higher level of difficulty then those of us in groups etc. But you've -MADE- that choice for yourself in that case. You will have to deal with that or try out grouping with others. If you are worried about scummy people that say dumb stuff, you don't talk often, and very very few people use voice chat. Most people assume everyone else is male, The reviews on my warframe.market profile are stuff like "cool dude" or "nice guy to buy from" and if you are a woman or another gender with a feminine voice, it's not like TF2 level terrifying. People sometimes say "Nice voice" or something like that. So just remind them to please not make things weird.

 

If you're problem is clans and hating all of them because of bigotry, toxicity, etc, I run a clan that's pretty much the opposite to the point that it enrages people. (Literally, advertising has gotten me kicked from servers before, but then, advertising my riven as an UNGODLY ELDRITCH BEING riven has gotten me kicked from one also. Take that as you will.)

 

I am sorry for the brevity of this post, but I had to write enough to try to cover 100% of your posts, and that wasn't easy. 😕

[Gandergear]

like OP why can't you just make one big post gooooooooolllllllly

On 2018-06-02 at 9:47 PM, C4STL3 said:

Indeed,   Ivara tends to stay alive a lot longer that her stats on paper would suggest on these missions assuming You are not sitting in one place taking slow bow shots one to one. But rather are constantly moving lining up artimus for multi-kill shots as opposed to  "bam bam bam= 1 kill 1 kill 1 kill"  at least the in case of Ivara, "1 shot=1 kill" is not good enough.

18 hours ago, C4STL3 said:

Your post confuses me. I have no idea what "meta cheese" you are talking about, I am unaware of what makes a "classic" warframe. Nor am I going to put in the effort to understand what makes one as it is unimportant.  Kind of makes it sound like the ones you mentioned need periodic carburetor cleaning, get five gallons to the mile and have problems starting in cold weather.

 

like bruh why so hostile

Edited June 4, 2018 by Gandergear

[Faulcun]

looks like a bunch of threads were merged together. Posts are missing as well.

[Etrionas]

I keep seeing the same thing over and over on these forums and it's kind of getting to me, the OP getting smacked down for daring to suggest that something could be better.

Its almost always veterans of the forums too, or at least people who frequently pop their head in.

This game was BUILT on passion from their community, so get your egotistical 'pay attention to what you are clicking' out of here and maybe understand that with a nice diverse range of perspectives we can help improve a game we all already love.

[Etrionas]

On 2018-05-30 at 12:37 PM, Hyro1 said:

Ok dude seriously is this ur first day, cause most of the complaints make it seem that way, and no I'm not dissing u cause its ur first day, its just seems that u have a pretty unreasonable expectation on how a game should be and function

This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. For a game with a reputation as having a really lovely helpful community this kind of stuff isn't living up to the expectations.

The UI is a little confusing, bullet jumping & parkour is not something people think to do in other games so why would they know to do it here... Situational awareness, sure... Let the player know that they will get more skilled with time.

Cmon guys, we can do better.

[Etrionas]

Sorry, I just realised my point had already been covered.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Etrionas
Unnecessary clarification

[Etrionas]

On 2018-06-04 at 2:43 AM, Faulcun said:

Id be happy to explain.

See, players will (...) which will ultimately lead them right back here again.

Faulcon, I see where you are coming from, but sometimes there is a better way to tell the hard truth. I mean I agree with most of your points but sometimes it's better for newer players to find their own path.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Etrionas
Shortened the quote

[Etrionas]

On 2018-06-04 at 1:57 PM, SpicyDinosaur said:

Okay not going to read every thread + every post because there are sooo many. Too much work.

I will attempt one last try(...)I am sorry for the brevity of this post, but I had to write enough to try to cover 100% of your posts, and that wasn't easy. 😕

YES I HAVE FINISHED THE MAIN QUESTLINE (I feel like I need to post that disclaimer before the 'Finish the main questline and then complain troupe come in')

Wanna know why I 100% disagree with this perspective of 'seek and ye shall find'?

For the same reason that I knew all of the spoilers to do with The Second Dream when I was googling to find out what the heck I had to do in the Natah quest.

I was looking really hard for the 'New drones' went on google to find it and kablammo, ruined the story for me.

Obviously that doesn't apply for all cases but the attitude of the community about a person needing some pointers is absolute cancer.

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Etrionas
Shrunk the quote

[SpicyDinosaur]

Actually, this community is known for being exceptionally helpful. Just because they don't do the quest for you or agree with you doesn't makes them cancer. And you won't get any help that way.

 

Furthermore, why did you need help with natah or a lot of those quests? Those are exceptionally intuitive except maybe one or two that I could see looking up and realizing how you needed to command the operator or whatever.

 

The reason newbies are actually able to progress, move though what is, I agree a complex system, (and I think they need optional, progressive tutorials in between the lower quests.) is because the community will help you if you don't complain excessively about how hard everything is and it should all be changed blah blah. Also, did you do anything but the quests? Have you tried experiencing the game at all? Hell, tbh, the wiki can give you detail on natah and probably won't ruin it, but if you look a quest up, yea you are exposing yourself to spoilers. 

 

If you posted on Players Helping Players saying you need help with this quest but don't want spoilers, you'd get help.

 

BTW to the person saying people doing things "meta" are exploiting, it's called testing things repeatedly, and getting the results that worked. An exploit is actually quite different. I know this from working on games. 😉 I generally build my stuff to play to my strengths and fortify my weaknesses, that must be "exploiting" because I don't try to enhance my weaknesses and maybe just stick a status duration mod in there? Maybe not even max the warframe.

 

Honestly if you don't want to or can't do it, np. But accusing people of cheating because they take the time and effort to figure out the mathematically best and most efficient way to do things, that's just inappropriate and frankly, it shows a problem with you as a player and your attitude. Play how you want. This is not, other than conclave, a pvp game, other peoples' builds don't affect the strength of your build. But yea if you show up at an eidolon hunt with frost and an amprex, that's gonna make people unhappy because it is useless to the group and you can't contribute. It's like people not showing up with archwing launchers. People do it all the time and I don't get it, they are super easy to build, and even a modicum of effort would show how important they are. Why...just put a little effort in. Or Chromas that think they are straight up solo damage fiends and don't have anything in any way to benefit people or even know what to do. (your vex armor should be benefiting others as well.) And then surprise! They get outdamaged by the trinity.

 

Upper end stuff needs some research, during raids you wouldn't pop into one unprepared. Christ.

 

I have, however, if people showed up with thw wrong gear, multiple times helped them out and directed them to places that could tell them how to be useful and enjoy the fight more.

[Etrionas]

1 hour ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Actually, this community is known for being exceptionally helpful. Just because they don't do the quest for you or agree with you doesn't makes them cancer. And you won't get any help that way.

I agree, but that's not what I am saying. I am saying that new players come on here and suggest new ideas for the game and get shot down by veterans who discard the ideas as nonsense. For instance, the idea of a 'Join Open Squads' button, or even repeatable 'challenge rewards' in missions so that there is a viable alternative to running Hydron?

Natah specifically is quite buggy when it come to the Oculysts, I was trying to find out what I had to scan and ran into spoilers, all the other content before that was mostly intuitive as you say except for synthesis scanning.

1 hour ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Also, did you do anything but the quests? Have you tried experiencing the game at all?

Yes, I have over a thousand hours in game (1392). I am speaking as a person who has played the game for a considerable amount of time and who expects better treatment of our newer players who are bringing us new ideas.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Etrionas
Changed wording

[Faulcun]

4 hours ago, Etrionas said:

Faulcon, I see where you are coming from, but sometimes there is a better way to tell the hard truth. I mean I agree with most of your points but sometimes it's better for newer players to find their own path.

I understand what you are trying to say here, however the hard truth is still the hard truth and there is no escaping it no matter how sugar coated you make it.

The problem with your approach sits with the player itself before the truth is even told. That player has to be willing to accept that truth before they even make a post about what they are having issues with in the first place. They usually are not simply due to how they get here from their current path.

I agree that a player should find their own path. But due to the nature of the game with the lack of focus on natural progression, and the nature of our current generation of players in the last decade, by the time they make it to these forums to complain about something, they already have a chip on their shoulder and the actual truth is an unacceptable answer to them. From the very moment they have trouble with something, they have to make that choice right there on whether its the games fault, or their own. They only make it to these forums after they have decided that the game is broken, and not themselves. So its an uphill battle to get them to accept the actual truth..... something they have already decided as unacceptable.

Its easy to see this because 99% of these posts are "this game is broken" and not "can somebody help me or teach me how to...". This is supported by the little piece of information I left out in the post you quoted me in. More specifically the part where i talk about having a second choice to make once the truth is told to them.

Im not one to tell somebody to get better without offering help in game. In the last 5 years and ~3600 hours of mission time..... only ONE person has ever taken me up on that offer. What usually ends up happening is they get suggested to use some other combination of broken meta. Its easy, its cheesy, but it works for their immediate problem. Then the broken meta gets fixed or nerfed, and they end up back here again raging about that.

Ultimately it comes down to taking a fish to get by for a day, or learning to fish to feed yourself forever. History is not on your side in this argument.

Edit: no sooner did i finish typing this, and i have a perfect example for you

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Faulcun

[SpicyDinosaur]

I have no idea where this broken meta thing has come from. Something being meta is different from an exploit. When I used to do Jordas Verdict with Raidbus there was an exploit to make things easier, and we didn't use it. We did it the way it was to be done. Then they broke it, and never fixed it because why bother most people don't raid. Then they abandoned them and took valuable content out of the game. Hey, why bother with archwing if you are going to do that? I am probably the only person that 1) loves Limbo and 2) loves archwing. Actually that works well for the quest. I saved proof fragments from it and pass them out when newbies ask for help with the archwing parts. I believe you need 9? I currently have 12 left. They can then skip that part if they hate it. I gather keys for mesa, I...avoid having to suffer lephantis, though my real beef with him is when he is in a sortie and level 100. Such a tedious fight.

 

I use the "meta" builds on ERH, they are not exploits, just optimised. People actually do complex math on the sites. Some of them just... I can't understand what I am seeing. If they are not breaking the rules, why do you care if they number crunch? Especially if they even make builds for rivenless versions of weapons and such. The simulacrum exists for that stuff in and of itself. I like to test things on the field. I admit, I don't number crunch, sometimes I get advice on how things stack and such, because there are weird details I won't see, even in the simulacrum. 

 

Like 99.7 status is entirely different than 100% status in shotguns because something something multishot pellets. So you push status and how is that an exploit exactly? OMG that person put in shotgun savvy, how cheap!

 

I mean if you want things that carved down, you could play conclave, the variance is far less.

 

Anyway, $&*^ measuring contest I guess... 3045 hours, only 2 years played. My boyfriend has played 5, but really 2, his account is just that old. He didn't buy any of the founder packs, things were so chaotic then, and he didn't want to invest in a game as it was back then. Oh I think we had money too, but also he hates to spend money on himself, and that was a steep cost. Now he regrets it, but I still don't think he would have done it. I would have had to join him and asked to get it for myself. *daydream*

 

Honestly, I'm confused by a lot of these complaints. I don't remember Natah being broken at all. Actually I breezed through that one. You can hear them showing up, then see them on the map iirc, then get to them and scan them, again irrc. So you look up on the wiki what to do and you get no spoilers.

 

But if you do get spoilers, seriously, it sucks you picked a bad site, we all try very hard not to ruin the quests. Sometimes I watch streams of games I want to play or perhaps stream myself. I see spoilers, and it's kind of bleh if you are going to play (I'm thinking of Doki Doki Literature Club, though I never saw the beginning parts. I still think I'll enjoy it when I do a playthrough if I can get an audience other than my regular griefing "companions" and the bots. They are all very quiet these days though. Too bad, they could behave and participate. I figured out my personal secret though, for women it's different, how you have to overcome them. But they will always come back, it just won't always be the same people.)

 

Maybe it's just because I pay more attention to the forums lately? That I notice this slough of so-called newbies that then insist they are veterans, (which confuses me,)

 

I try to help after I handle the utter frustration and the rude behavior and insistence that things that are fairly new to them, or that they don't have the experience to be sure of and have not even consulted others or checked for other complaints on the same or similar issues, are utterly broken.

 

I sent @TheGreenGunner a newbie guide I found recently. It is sort of even a way for them to playtest it to see if it is worth me spreading about. I've written a few things, on how to obtain an archwing launcher (seriously, stop going to eidolon hunts if you don't have one. You slow everyone down massively.) Anyway, they haven't responded. Maybe they got frustrated when all their posts got negative feedback. It would have probably been received better if they maybe spaced them out over time, or possibly asked about these things in players helping players before coming to suggestions to complain about the most trivial details, in about 20 posts. I realize they may have wanted to be thorough and figured listing everything that was, to them, an issue, would be needed, but omg, the spam. Either way, I tried to help, and I have yet to get a response. Invited them to my clan too, or just the discord, assuming they fit in, since it is so utterly niche.

 

It feels like it is everyday though. Some person comes to complain about issues that they are responsible for (Pebkac) Like we can't pick the site you end up going to, christ, that's not even remotely in the realm of anyone here or the game devs/programmers etc. That is you and the site you picked, an unfortunate choice. 

 

Also, if people would use players helping players more, or respond to offers to give help...Honestly, the last time I felt the need to be kind and give someone some leeway, I got scammed out of a 700p all cyan kavat with white energy. Then the scammer resold it for 1.1k. He was so proud of himself too, and he has joined the breeding discord. I was kicked out because Ovion and that backstabbing...well I refuse to mention her at all. I am kind of thankful. I had made a scammer list in general, his in game name and discord name is on it. I could even get his ID number if I had to. But somehow he is still there. Even though the nepotic admins know full well his details, and that..ew, she referred him to me. So she knows for sure. 

[Etrionas]

6 hours ago, Faulcun said:

I understand what you are trying to say here (...) Ultimately it comes down to taking a fish to get by for a day, or learning to fish to feed yourself forever. History is not on your side in this argument.

 

Hey Faulcun,

Your well structured response and thorough countering of my points is a breath of fresh air. Just wanted to thank you for that.

Disclaimer: I have read your messages thoroughly, I simply remove content from the quote for ease of space, reading and time, so please be assured that I hear you loud and clear on that front.

Your perspective is actually very informing, and honestly I think you have the right of it.

My main goal is to have players welcomed and embraced when they suggest new ideas or quality of life changes (not just complaining that they die or that they are stuck or whatever) that make the game more intuitive. It's almost like you have to throw a disclaimer on all messages saying 'I would really like these features introduced but only if they can be done without breaking any of the core game mechanics that players know and love'. 

[Etrionas]

2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I have no idea where this broken meta thing has come from (...) she knows for sure. 

Thanks for the time and energy you put into your reply, ill do my best to convey my point.

I will admit I get a little lost when you go off on a tangent but I try to keep up.

2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I use the "meta" builds on ERH, they are not exploits, just optimised. People actually do complex math on the sites. Some of them just... I can't understand what I am seeing. If they are not breaking the rules, why do you care if they number crunch?

Um, I personally haven't encountered hate over optimised builds, I think its more of a thing for the individual, that they would feel cheap for looking up how to optimise and when they do, the game becomes easy for very little work on their part and it makes them feel cheap, maybe, I think? I don't KNOW per say what the issue is that is just my opinion.

2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Anyway, $&*^ measuring contest I guess... 3045 hours, only 2 years played. My boyfriend has played 5, but really 2, his account is just that old.

Sorry about this one, I don't care how long I have played, nor do I care if someone who started playing yesterday wants to call themselves a Veteran. It is simply that unless you can tick the 'not a noob' box in your posts on the forum you get things like:

On 2018-05-30 at 12:37 PM, Hyro1 said:

Ok dude seriously is this ur first day, cause most of the complaints make it seem that way, and no I'm not dissing u cause its ur first day, its just seems that u have a pretty unreasonable expectation on how a game should be and function

So yeah... But congrats on like 3k hours... 👍

As for Natah, it's a random chance that the Oculyst will spawn, that's the only reason I looked up what it was I was looking for, again it isn't that part of the Natah quest that I had issues with, while a little odd, sure, its fine. The part of the Natah quest I ABSOLUTELY had issues with was the final part 'Seal the Tomb, Desdemona, Uranus' which is absolutely not well done, in my opinion. The transmissions are very VERY spaced out, the mission is very slow paced and boring and most importantly... the bomb you are there to arm... Yeah its a darn Warframe Cryopod... That is what you are defending... And the dialogue instructs the Tenno to guard a bomb while it arms.

As for the 20 something posts from @TheGreenGunner well I found most of the ones I read to be fine, maybe people feel comfortable with the forums, maybe they wanna speak to veterans about the game? Honestly I don't care what the reason is, they can do it and that is fine, the last thing we need is grizzly old 'veterans' who think they own the game chasing people off because a post hurt their sensitivities.

If you don't have a constructive point that's additive to the discussion then perhaps just move along without posting hate or rage or dismissing their points outright.

[SpicyDinosaur]

I think it's more that spam drives us a little nuts. Some of it could have been condensed. Example, I actually was going to post three posts I made just now into one gigantic post. I didn't because then they didn't all really fit in any category properly, and also, some detracted from others. But I managed to get a significant amount covered in 3 posts, as opposed to 10 or 12. Furthermore, I continued to try to convince gunner to maybe take some time with the game.

 

And umm, you seem offended about my exceptional playtime in so few years. (pay no attention to the gentleman with a longer time!) Did I mention I am MR25 *slicks back hair*

 

It's really really hard to get a good concept of the game in umm 1200 hours, I only posted my hours because I thought we were making some kind of comparative statement. I don't really judge these things or ask them of people, but since you volunteered... At that many hours with such a complex game, even then, without a lot of time and research (which would probably come out to many more hours anyway,) you are still missing out on a whole LOT. That doesn't mean your input isn't valuable. Or that you don't have something useful to say. But this issue you seem to have here is that some people...disagree with you? I liked all the quests? Does that make me a horrible old veteran that just wants to push away young players?

 

Am I not allowed input in these kinds of threads, and if so, what are the conditions under which one can post and provide input? GUnner seems very bright, and I actually kind of like them based on their posts but, perhaps they are...lol jumping the gun, if you will. Maybe, experience more as I had said, before writing 20 posts on little tiny details that are more nuisances than anything else. But me saying this, my opinion which if it were nasty or aggressive, I could see taking issue with, seems to set off this flurry of defensiveness. They are not little, they MUST be addressed.

Honestly, can we start with fixing the massive bugs in new content. Plus, most people do not appear to agree with Gunner's sentiments regardless. This is their right and most people are okay with the little details that were irking them. A lot of this stuff sort of fades into the background when you get used to it, the little things, and the devs can't change around the style of things every other day to suit whoever made the most recent post. As was explained, some of these things were as she wanted, and people didn't like it so they switched it.

Honestly, it is what it is. And I don't see them as significant. Though it's possible I missed a few posts. The fact that she had notes taken, apparently a rather extensive list of them, each of which was posted as its own, quite brief topic, to be clear, my issue is, instead I write excessively long posts and veer off into tangentially related topics etc. I actually thinks its my OCD kind of acting up. Stress or something. But little topics are kind of time wasters because they have sparse content. She complained without really offering any sort of solutions a lot of times. And when she did and it was explained to her that it was that way before but was changed due to a dislike to that, she seemed disheartened, and I wasn't sure what she wanted at that point. 

Anyway, the intent wasn't to chase her off. Also I just realized I flipped the gender from they to her. I don't know their gender. It's the avatar, sometimes I can tell when people type also, but not 100% and assuming gender is terrible. Anyway, I need to sleep, been up over 24 hours, so I am just to exhausted to fix my stupid mistake. I do hope if they revisit this thread they will forgive me if I have misgendered them as I do not believe they stated their pronoun preferences at any point.

[SpicyDinosaur]

Oh before i collapse, the reason people work on meta and calculation etc re: eidolons. It's the difference between taking down one run of three, and 4+ runs of all three. So it's not necessary if you are super casual, but if you want to push for as many runs in a night as you can, you do need to absolutely optimize things as much as possible.

[TheGreenFellow]

On 2018-06-02 at 10:38 PM, Faulcun said:

with ~3600hrs of mission time under my belt, ill have to disagree 🙂

This truly is a situation where you just need a little more experience. Respectfully, I doubt that knowing that they deal more damage has made the missions any easier. In fact, even if somebody had told you ahead of time, your probable response would have been to bring Rhino and use iron skin..... which you've already done and still got roflstomped.

I already tend to bring squishy frames, and im super conservative with my powers too. The majority of my mission play is simple footwork and quick target acquisition.

It just takes a little practice. I suggest joining a clan where members are playing at higher level, and learn from them.

I as well am willing to help. contact me in game anytime.

Rhino? In a Corpus/Corrupted mission? With nullifiers around? Yeah, no...bad idea, unless you like using Rhino to hide. I'm MR23, I've been in a clan for ages, and you're ignoring my point about how footwork doesn't help when rounding corners.

Are there ways around such hazards, using certain weapons (ignis) and/or warframes? Sure. But that doesn't make it ideal design. Rather, it's one imbalance (weapon & warframe mods allowing exponential power leaps) happening to counteract another (Corrupted Crewman with 200%+ damage). There is a significant difference between that, and balance.

[TheGreenFellow]

On 2018-06-03 at 9:43 AM, Faulcun said:

<snip>Then threads like this get started because it cant possibly be their fault... they are too good at this game now... they never die. So it must be something wrong with the game, right?

Wrong.

So players like myself end up coming here and telling them the truth they dont want to hear, and get called an elitist a-hole in the process. At least some of us offer to actually help in game. At that point, the player has a choice to make whether to take up that offer for help and learn the skills they are lacking, or ignore the offer and continue down their current path which will ultimately lead them right back here again.

If you read any of my feedback threads and came away with the assumption that I'm having a frustrated complain train as a result of inexperienced rage, then you A. weren't actually reading my posts and B. are making incorrect assumptions.

Step 1 to not being called an elitist is to not act like one by making assumptions about strangers on the internet.

On 2018-06-03 at 8:57 PM, SpicyDinosaur said:

Okay not going to read every thread + every post because there are sooo many. Too much work.

If you're problem is clans and hating all of them because of bigotry, toxicity, etc, I run a clan that's pretty much the opposite to the point that it enrages people. (Literally, advertising has gotten me kicked from servers before, but then, advertising my riven as an UNGODLY ELDRITCH BEING riven has gotten me kicked from one also. Take that as you will.)

I am sorry for the brevity of this post, but I had to write enough to try to cover 100% of your posts, and that wasn't easy. 😕

The irony.
>"Not going to read"
>posts off-topic and tangential wall of text
>claims that running a clan that engrages people isn't toxic and is in fact the opposite of toxic (lol)

No offense buddy, but brevity - 'concise and exact use of words in writing or speech' - is a concept you do not seem familiar with.

On 2018-06-06 at 10:16 AM, Faulcun said:

I understand what you are trying to say here, however the hard truth is still the hard truth and there is no escaping it no matter how sugar coated you make it.

The problem with your approach sits with the player itself before the truth is even told. That player has to be willing to accept that truth before they even make a post about what they are having issues with in the first place. They usually are not simply due to how they get here from their current path.

I agree that a player should find their own path. But due to the nature of the game with the lack of focus on natural progression, and the nature of our current generation of players in the last decade, by the time they make it to these forums to complain about something, they already have a chip on their shoulder and the actual truth is an unacceptable answer to them. From the very moment they have trouble with something, they have to make that choice right there on whether its the games fault, or their own. They only make it to these forums after they have decided that the game is broken, and not themselves. So its an uphill battle to get them to accept the actual truth..... something they have already decided as unacceptable.

Its easy to see this because 99% of these posts are "this game is broken" and not "can somebody help me or teach me how to...". This is supported by the little piece of information I left out in the post you quoted me in. More specifically the part where i talk about having a second choice to make once the truth is told to them.

Im not one to tell somebody to get better without offering help in game. In the last 5 years and ~3600 hours of mission time..... only ONE person has ever taken me up on that offer. What usually ends up happening is they get suggested to use some other combination of broken meta. Its easy, its cheesy, but it works for their immediate problem. Then the broken meta gets fixed or nerfed, and they end up back here again raging about that.

Ultimately it comes down to taking a fish to get by for a day, or learning to fish to feed yourself forever. History is not on your side in this argument.

Edit: no sooner did i finish typing this, and i have a perfect example for you

 

Asserting your commentary as preaching truth to a newbie audience is not helping avoiding the impression of an elitist. Particularly when the soapbox you've stepped onto has nothing to do with the thread(s).

Just saying, pal.

 

On 2018-06-06 at 2:38 PM, SpicyDinosaur said:

I sent @TheGreenGunner a newbie guide I found recently. It is sort of even a way for them to playtest it to see if it is worth me spreading about. I've written a few things, on how to obtain an archwing launcher (seriously, stop going to eidolon hunts if you don't have one. You slow everyone down massively.) Anyway, they haven't responded. Maybe they got frustrated when all their posts got negative feedback. It would have probably been received better if they maybe spaced them out over time, or possibly asked about these things in players helping players before coming to suggestions to complain about the most trivial details, in about 20 posts. I realize they may have wanted to be thorough and figured listing everything that was, to them, an issue, would be needed, but omg, the spam. Either way, I tried to help, and I have yet to get a response. Invited them to my clan too, or just the discord, assuming they fit in, since it is so utterly niche.

This is a really disingenuous way of describing the wall of text you sent me laden to the brim with false assumptions, bringing up and/or claiming things that I never said - which I find to be rather insulting. It might be received better if you took more time to consider your message and how you want it to be received.

Oh, and things like calling my feedback "complaints about the most trivial details" and "spam" is the exact 'negative feedback' you bring up here. So I really don't appreciate you attempting to paint yourself as the helpful Samaritan in this situation.
 

On 2018-06-06 at 6:41 PM, SpicyDinosaur said:

Am I not allowed input in these kinds of threads, and if so, what are the conditions under which one can post and provide input? GUnner seems very bright, and I actually kind of like them based on their posts but, perhaps they are...lol jumping the gun, if you will.

Again, ironic, coming from the person who "jumped the gun" and made a large number of wholly incorrect assumptions about myself and what I've posted on the forums so far.

On 2018-06-06 at 6:41 PM, SpicyDinosaur said:

Plus, most people do not appear to agree with Gunner's sentiments regardless. This is their right and most people are okay with the little details that were irking them. A lot of this stuff sort of fades into the background when you get used to it, the little things, and the devs can't change around the style of things every other day to suit whoever made the most recent post. As was explained, some of these things were as she wanted, and people didn't like it so they switched it.

Honestly, it is what it is. And I don't see them as significant. Though it's possible I missed a few posts. The fact that she had notes taken, apparently a rather extensive list of them, each of which was posted as its own, quite brief topic, to be clear, my issue is, instead I write excessively long posts and veer off into tangentially related topics etc. I actually thinks its my OCD kind of acting up. Stress or something. But little topics are kind of time wasters because they have sparse content. She complained without really offering any sort of solutions a lot of times. And when she did and it was explained to her that it was that way before but was changed due to a dislike to that, she seemed disheartened, and I wasn't sure what she wanted at that point. 

Anyway, the intent wasn't to chase her off. Also I just realized I flipped the gender from they to her. I don't know their gender. It's the avatar, sometimes I can tell when people type also, but not 100% and assuming gender is terrible. Anyway, I need to sleep, been up over 24 hours, so I am just to exhausted to fix my stupid mistake. I do hope if they revisit this thread they will forgive me if I have misgendered them as I do not believe they stated their pronoun preferences at any point.

1. It is not correct that "most people" don't agree with my sentiments. It is true that you do not agree. It is your right. But claiming to be "most people" is not.

2. Nowhere did I make any claim that the devs can change the style of things at the drop of a hat according to my whims. Attempting to put my feedback in such a light is quite insidious behavior in my eyes.

3. I am a he. Another assumption you made that was wholly incorrect. You really should learn not to make so many assumptions - like assuming that I'm pretentious about gender pronouns. I am not. There is an unlimited number of things in life more important to get offended about.

4. Keeping a topic short and to the point is not a 'time waster' in any rational definition of the phrase. In fact, it's the opposite.

5. Raising so many topics is not spam, it's addressing a game that has an incredible amount of detail put into it. There's no way around it having so many topics to discuss when it is so chock full of stuff. If you find this overwhelming to deal with, then you are not suited for discussing Feedback, to put it bluntly, and you are not whom my messages are intended for.

It seems you at least honestly recognize that 'stress or something' is affecting you and the way you communicate. I would earnestly suggest you take time to address that and reconsider the manner in which you go through the process of communication, because over here on my end I have to admit - it is downright frustrating.

Edited June 8, 2018 by TheGreenGunner

[Faulcun]

11 hours ago, TheGreenGunner said:

Rhino? In a Corpus/Corrupted mission? With nullifiers around? Yeah, no...bad idea, unless you like using Rhino to hide. I'm MR23, I've been in a clan for ages, and you're ignoring my point about how footwork doesn't help when rounding corners.

Are there ways around such hazards, using certain weapons (ignis) and/or warframes? Sure. But that doesn't make it ideal design. Rather, it's one imbalance (weapon & warframe mods allowing exponential power leaps) happening to counteract another (Corrupted Crewman with 200%+ damage). There is a significant difference between that, and balance.

I mainly play a nova (squishy frame to begin with) with a sniper rifle, and am super conservative with my powers... so im obviously not relying on my build or my powers to survive.  The only other thing i can suggest to you is that you are either moving too slow, or you are too close to corners when you move around them. 

Im used to playing at lvl 100+ enemies where the faction doesnt matter because everything is a one shot kill for me, corrupted or not. Corners are the least of my concern. "Balance" is certainly out the window at that level.  Do I go down? Sure, sometimes its unavoidable. But I definitely do not have the issues you are describing and 200% damage makes no difference when you die from anything anyways.

With that being said.... the only enemy I have trouble with is high level grineer because all of their weapons are hitscan. Cant be dodged, only mitigated.... which makes things difficult for me. i find myself using my powers more often than Id like at that point.

But if you are unwilling to consider a point of view or suggestion from a player who isnt having the problem you are, then you cant be helped. So you do you, and keep struggling.

12 hours ago, TheGreenGunner said:

If you read any of my feedback threads and came away with the assumption that I'm having a frustrated complain train as a result of inexperienced rage, then you A. weren't actually reading my posts and B. are making incorrect assumptions.

Step 1 to not being called an elitist is to not act like one by making assumptions about strangers on the internet.

 

Asserting your commentary as preaching truth to a newbie audience is not helping avoiding the impression of an elitist. Particularly when the soapbox you've stepped onto has nothing to do with the thread(s).

I was speaking generally about my own experiences from these forums, not to mention others, and the conclusions ive come to. Even though I wasnt speaking directly about you, you are doing more right now proving me correct than for yourself.

I respectfully gave you suggestions and offered to help you in game, rather than tell you "git gud, nub".

But you have me confused with somebody who cares about being called an elitist. I put myself out there to help, as did others. Take it how you will.

Just remember, you are the one who is having the issue, not me.

 

[Etrionas]

59 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

I mainly play a nova (squishy frame to begin with) with a sniper rifle, and am super conservative with my powers... so im obviously not relying on my build or my powers to survive.  The only other thing i can suggest to you is that you are either moving too slow, or you are too close to corners when you move around them. 

Im used to playing at lvl 100+ enemies where the faction doesnt matter because everything is a one shot kill for me, corrupted or not. Corners are the least of my concern. "Balance" is certainly out the window at that level.  Do I go down? Sure, sometimes its unavoidable. But I definitely do not have the issues you are describing and 200% damage makes no difference when you die from anything anyways.

With that being said.... the only enemy I have trouble with is high level grineer because all of their weapons are hitscan. Cant be dodged, only mitigated.... which makes things difficult for me. i find myself using my powers more often than Id like at that point.

But if you are unwilling to consider a point of view or suggestion from a player who isnt having the problem you are, then you cant be helped. So you do you, and keep struggling.

@Faulcun I think it's more that you aren't giving the more succinct pointers like 'you are too close to corners when you move around them' so it is very hard for the person without the experience to understand the lesson fully.

[Faulcun]

5 hours ago, Etrionas said:

 I think it's more that you aren't giving the more succinct pointers like 'you are too close to corners when you move around them' so it is very hard for the person without the experience to understand the lesson fully.

Even that pointer is vague in itself. Learning is prompted through discussion and conversation or engagement directly. If there was something that he didnt understand, he could have asked for clarification. For example, moving quickly, making short changes in direction, and prioritizing targets..... all take advantage of enemies with projectile weapons.

From here we can go in many directions by discussing what moving quickly really is. Take the obstacle course for example. His fastest time is ~38s. Mine is 16s with nova (only firewalker), 14.7s with loki (full speed build), and 11.2s with nyx (helmet and full speed build). The point isnt the difference in speed, its the fact that somebody like myself might be able to share tactics and approaches with button combinations similar to button combos in a fighting game, among other things.

Or we can discuss how short changes in direction take advantage of the enemies' AI having to lead their shots with projectile weapons... because they have travel time. The faster you move, and the more you dance.... the more they lead their shots in opposite directions, and the harder it is for you to get hit.

I could go on for hours about each little point, and im not about to sit here typing it all out wasting my time with anybody who isnt actually interested in the answer. The point is, he did not engage in conversation. Instead he dismissed my comments with emphasis on the game being broken, and an unwillingness to accept any responsibility on his end.

5 hours ago, Etrionas said:

@Faulcun I very much think that you have misinterpreted @TheGreenGunner here and I also very much think that the comments made, quite specifically:

was most definitely aimed at @SpicyDinosaur and not you. I hope that helps.

I don't think anyone has any issues with your pointers @Faulcun, more that they have trouble understanding or that they haven't fully explained themselves and need to clarify.

Im pretty sure his reply was directly to me as I was the one who first brought up elitism in my post. But its ok either way. It really makes no difference. The most productive conversation has been with you, so i dont feel like ive wasted time.