Vauban rework the reworkening, the final D20 Vauban feedback thread.

[LascarCapable]

You know what that means, boys ? It's time for my ultimate Vauban rework thread ! The rework thread to end them all !

In the past, I made quite an absurd number of threads about this guy. Vauban was quite (and still is) one of my personal biggest disappointement. He just looked that cool. I loved his theme, I loved being able to lay down traps, sadly he is just cluttered by so much bad design it's actually obnoxious. I shall remind to every single humans that live on that damned planet : Vauban is nothing more than the last one trick pony remaining in warframe ! A status that is nothing to be proud about.

Vauban is plagued by a absurd number of issues. All of them will require some close attention from DE if they plan to make that Warframe rework as effective as possible. Among those issues :

• Vauban lacks from any kind of versatility, being strictly limited to crowd control (with a very slight amount of debuff tools).
• Vauban has little to no survivability.
• Hydroid since his rework is pretty much a better Vauban with a fully functional kit.
• Two of Vauban's abilities are utterly useless, while the two others are basically the same thing.
• Bastille is basically the only ability worth using in Vauban's kit.
• Vauban's passive is a gigantic middle finger raised to solo players.
• No matter what's the job, anyone will do the job better than him... Especially Hydroid.

The goal of my rework suggestion will be to adress every single of those issue as efficiently as possible. I would like Vauban to have a much more versatile kit and a better chance to survive in higher level missions. I also want to give to Vauban's kit some natural synergies that would make him much more fun to play with. This is a complete and rather non-conservative rework.

Citation

PASSIVE - grenadier : Vauban is immune to self damage.

1. Minelayer : Toss a mine with two different effect depending of how the user pressed the ability button.
   • Tapping the ability button will toss a shredder mine : the shredder mine inflict a small amount of damage upon detonating, ragdolling and reducing a the same time the enemy's armor and speed.
   • Holding the ability button will toss a scrambler mine : the scrambler mine will disable the enemy's weapons, traps and robots for a brief moment upon detonating. All enemies affected will also suffer a magnetic proc and drop a random ammo pack on the ground. Also deals a small amount of damage.
   • Each mine has a detonation radius and a detection radius. In order for a mine to detonate, an enemy must enter its detection radius.
   • If you need to, you can manually trigger mines by attacking them. Manually triggered mines will add a small percentage of your weapon's damage to the explosion's damage.
   • Debuff effect/duration of mines are doubled if the enemy has been recently hit by a tether or a deflector.
   • Mines are affected by power range (detection and explosion radius), power duration (debuff durauon) and power strenght (debuff strenght).
   • 25 energy.
2. Deployments : Toss a deployable to control the enemy's positionning.
   • Taping the ability button will toss a deflector that blocks enemy shots. Enemies attempting to pass through deflector will be bumped in the direction the deflector is facing.
     • The deflector will always face in the direction Vauban was facing when throwing the deflector.
     • Deflectors have a narrow size, large enough to bring cover for a single player.
   • Holding the ability button will toss a tether trap. Tether traps will latch on a limited number of enemies entering is trigger radius and reel them towards the center of the trap for their whole duration.
     • The tethering effect stagger the latched enemy when triggered, but does not bring any CC effect afterwards (enemies can still shoot at you.
     • Tethered enemies will only be able to walk on a 2m radius around the tether.
     • Tethering will break if enemies are forcibly pushed away of the tethering area or if they get hit by a Deflector.
     • When the target cap is reached, the tether trap with either break down if all affected enemies are killed/moved or when its duration expires.
   • Affected by power duration (trap duration), power strenght (knockback power, tethered enemies count) and power range (deflector width, tether trap detection radius).
   • 25 Energy.
3. Bastille : Works the same than the current Bastille with a few changes.
   • Lowered radius.
   • Increased duration.
   • No more enemy cap.
   • Cannot be stacked : last instance of Bastille will always replace the old one.
   • Affected by power range and power duration.
   • Same cost
4. Turret : Creates a turret weilding an holographic version of your currently held weapon.
   • The turret will automatically fire at enemies coming in a wide cone in front of it.
   • The turret deals a percentage of your weapon's damage.
   • Turret's detection cone depends of the kind of weapon used.
     • Snipers will have the longest range, but also have a narrower detection cone.
     • Melee weapons will chase enemies on a 360 degree radius, but only in a small perimeter.
     • Other weapons will target enemies on a wide cone and average range.
   • Turret have limited health and shield.
   • Only one turret can remain on the battlefield per user. New turrets will replace the old one.
   • The turret deals bonus damage to ennemies who recently triggered mines and enemies affected by Bastille.
   • Holding the ability button will change the turret's weapon to your currently held weapon without any energy cost.
   • Affected by power strenght (percentage capped at 100% weapon damage, shields, health) and power range (detection range)
   • 100 energy.

STAT CHANGES :

• Vauban :
  • Base shields raised from 100 to 125.
  • Base armor raised from 50 to 150.
• Vauban Prime :
  • Base shields raised from 100 to 125.
  • Base armor raised from 100 to 200.

The goal of that rework is to still make CC a central point of Vauban, however, Vauban is now an effective damage dealer and debuffer, and has more tools to support himself and the team on the battlefield.

• Vauban is now a much better debuffer and damage dealer through Minelayers's armor/shield reduction and his brand new turret. The turret can pretty much be used combined with any weapon to comfort to any of your current needs.
• Vauban keeps multiple CC options that doesn't overlap each other anymore. Bastille can contain enemies for a long duration but only in a narrow space. Thethers and deflectors can be respectively used to pull or push incoming enemies inside the Bastille. Mines can also be used as a soft CC, and maybe make the enemies crash inside the Bastille at the same time.
• Vauban can now provide efficient cover for himself and his through the use of his deflector, improving his survibability a bit more effectively.

That new kit may allow a creative Vauban user to set up different kind of synergies.

• Multiple deflectors may be used to create a chain reaction of knockbacks in order to send enemies into other traps for a cheap cost.
• If you feel like enemies avoid your deflector chain a bit too easly, you can attempt to put a tether on one of them.
• Want your turret to be a bit more efficient ? Make sure your enemies eat your mines.
• If you want to somehow make it easier to capture enemies coming near your Bastille, you can toss some tethers near its borders.
• You can improve the debuff duration/potency of your mines by leading your enemies directly into them with your deflectors and tethers.

Hopefully you guys will appreciate that rework suggestion. If you feel like something is overpowered, out of place, overlaps nastily with another ability, or you just wish to voice your opinion about that rework, don't hesitate about commenting.

A few necessary commenting rules : 

• This thread is made to discuss the points I raised and the rework suggestions I made : Don't hijack it. If you wish to speak about the way you would have wanted Vauban to be without discussing too much the points I made in the OP or in a later post, please make your own thread.
• Do not post link towards other rework threads (even my own old reworks). You may however quote some stuff from those threads if necessary as long as it's not bringing your whole rework thing over here.
• Be excellent to each other. If someone disagrees with you, this is perfectly fine.
• Don't moan about those commenting rules I decided to apply in that thread. It's useless.

OLD REWORK :

Révélation

PASSIVE - grenadier : Vauban is immune to self damage.

1. Deployments : 4 small and cheap deployables that can be selected by the player.
   • Landmine : Explode in a large radius if an enemy steps too close from it. Ragdoll enemies while reducing shields and armors by a percentage.
     • Renews itself after being triggered in a 2s delay.
     • Has a limited amount of charges.
   • Sensor : Spot enemies in a small radius, giving them an aura visible through walls. Enemies spotted will recieve additional damage from all sources.
   • Deflector : Small deployable cover that acts like a shield. Block enemy projectiles. Enemies attempting to go through the deflector will be bounced in the direction the deflector is facing and suffer a small amount of magnetic damage. 
     • Upon spawning, the deflector will always face the same direction than when Vauban tossed the deflector.
   • Tether : Latch on enemies coming too close and reels them in, bunching them up and preventing them from leaving a 2m area around the Tether.
     • Does not deal damage, does not CC targets. Only pulls them.
     • Can only pick up a limited amount of enemies, but its trigger radius is quite wide.
       • Once the limit is reached, the Tether will disappear when its duration ends or if no enemies are affected by it.
     • Tether link will break if the enemy gets ragdolled by landmine or knocked away by deflector.
   • Each traps have a limited duration and are affected by power strenght, power duration and power range.
   • 25 energy.
2. Smoke Generator : Toss a smoke generator that reduce visibility heavily in a wide radius.
   • Cut line of sight with enemies. They may however attempt to fire randomly through the smoke.
   • Enemies inside the smoked AoE will be considered as blinded. However, they will always attempt to flee the area.
   • Enemies caught in the AoE are opened to finishers as long as they remain inside.
   • Enemies will ALWAYS avoid entering the smoked area.
   • Enemies will tend to draw their attention towards the smoke generator, distracting them if you aren't too close.
   • Affected by power range and power duration.
   • 50 energy.
3. Bastille : Works the same than the current Bastille with a few changes.
   • Lowered radius.
   • Increased duration.
   • No more enemy cap.
   • Cannot be stacked : last instance of Bastille will always replace the old one.
   • Affected by power range and power duration.
   • Same cost
4. Turret : Creates a turret weilding an holographic version of your currently held weapon.
   • Enemies affected by sensors will be automatically targetted by the turret without any necessary orders from its user.
     • Will only work if there is line of sight between enemies and the turret.
     • Sensor's damage bonus doesn't apply to the turret.
   • If the turret is not busy shooting at stuff affected by your traps, it aims in the same direction where you are aiming, and attack when you attack (a bit like how Nidus' 1 behaves when duplicated by parasitic link).
   • The turret deals a percentage of your weapon's damage.
   • Behaves slightly differently when used with your melee weapon : instead of laying still, the turret will chase enemies. They still require you to attack to deal any damage if no enemies are affected by tethers, sensors or bastilles.
   • Turret have limited health and shield.
   • Only one turret can remain on the battlefield per user. New turrets will replace the old one.
   • Affected by power strenght, power range and power duration.
   • 100 energy.

STAT CHANGES :

• Vauban :
  • Base shields raised from 100 to 125.
  • Base armor raised from 50 to 150.
• Vauban Prime :
  • Base shields raised from 100 to 125.
  • Base armor raised from 100 to 200.

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by D20
Added a few missing info.

[KennBone]

love all things except smoke generator, maybe use for add shiled or regenerate hp to vauban+ allies ( pets companions included )

[LascarCapable]

il y a 6 minutes, davej83 a dit :

love all things except smoke generator, maybe use for add shiled or regenerate hp to vauban+ allies ( pets companions included )

That's probably due to that clunky feel. Smoke generator may be a lil bit cluky I agree. But I don't think I would include some stuff that would directly buff allies. I always see Vauban as a trap based trickster more than an engineer. I could try to find something else that could raise Vauban's survivability, but I don't want it to apply a direct buff for now. Anyway, we have already enough frames able to regenerate shields or health.

Edited June 3, 2018 by D20

[MartianGHunter]

Same love everything but smoke generator, maybe move vortex to smoke generator but now for every enemy caught in vortex will generate shields/over shields to nearby allies around vortex. Keeps CC but also gives allies a buff. But love love these changes.

[Artekkor]

Yes, please!

I absolutely love the idea of Vauban - sort of being the SWAT specialist among the warframes - close quarters tactical specialist. But his skills are so underwhelming... You can pretty much forget 1st and 2nd skill and just spam 3rd and 4th everywhere and TADA - you won the day!

I especially like the proposoal to forbid spawning multiple bastiles (and super powerful crowd controling abilities in general).

Edited June 3, 2018 by Artek94

[LascarCapable]

il y a 7 minutes, MartianGHunter a dit :

Same love everything but smoke generator, maybe move vortex to smoke generator but now for every enemy caught in vortex will generate shields/over shields to nearby allies around vortex. Keeps CC but also gives allies a buff. But love love these changes.

Tether is actually here to sort of replace Vortex, so I can't really add that back. I could however work a bit more on Tether.

I am definitely open to suggestions to replace or work on that smoke generator, but I don't think a "buffing" Vortex will be my choice at all for now. There's very likely something much more elegant to add that could also synergize with something in a different way.

il y a 7 minutes, Artek94 a dit :

Yes, please!

I absolutely love the idea of Vauban - sort of being the SWAT specialist among the warframes - close quarters tactical specialist. But his skills are so underwhelming... You can pretty much forget 1st and 2nd skill and just spam 3rd and 4th everywhere and TADA - you won the day!

I especially like the proposoal to forbid spawning multiple bastiles (and super powerful crowd controling abilities in general).

Very glad you like the ideas. :)

Edited June 3, 2018 by D20

[xXDeadsinxX]

I don’t even like Booben at the moment with his current abilities, however, with your purposed rework, I might actually find interest in using him in the game.

Vauban Feedback:

• Passive:
  • You definitely nailed the passive portion for Vauban, it fits him quite well actually.
• Deployment:
  • Seems pretty good to me.
• Smoke Generator:
  • Seems pretty effiecent for being able to be stealth in any mission and can open enemies up for finishers, I dig it.
• Bastile:
  • Love the change that there is no enemy cap any more, definitely a good change for sure!
• Turret:
  • Pretty interesting, I’m guessing that it works for all weapons as well.
• Stat increase:
  • Making Vauban a little more tanky is a positive for me!

Overall, I love your purposed rework for Vauban!

[MartianGHunter]

1 minute ago, D20 said:

Tether is actually here to sort of replace Vortex, so I can't really add that back. I could however work a bit more on Tether.

I am definitely open to suggestion to replace or work on that smoke generator, but I don't think a "buffing" Vortex will be my choice at all for now. There's very likely something much more elegant to do.

I think my problem is completely changing Vauban's kit for me anyway. I love his abilities its just they are clunky or useless most of the time but kinda enjoy using them in their useless state anyway. So keeping vortex for me is important. And from the way DE has been reworking most of the base abilities stay and they update them to function better hence why I suggested buffing vortex because Im pretty sure DE won't remove it from his kit. Only thing I see going is tesla and moving his second to his 1 and then they will probably give him a defensive ability.

[Lukkiete]

I kinda didn't understand the concept of Turret and its synergy with Sensor specifically. If Sensor is made to spot enemy through walls, why would I need to place Turret, since I doubt you want it to shoot through walls. Second, is there really any reason to spot enemies through walls since we already have means to do that like Enemy Radar, Animal Instinct, Zenith's secondary fire mode?

P.S That passive looks like OP, imagine it with Lenz/Ogris/God forbid Tonkor *-*

Edited June 3, 2018 by CephalonNiksyn

[Edzhang]

I like most of your idea, but personally i dont think i will use sensor as much as other traps, they all feel more useful than sensor.. 

Although i like the idea of smoke generator, i prefer the idea from another thread (sorry im using phone right now, cant check it) that gives vauban the ability to replenish ammo for the squad.. For bastille, i agree it needs to be limited so we cant go to a mission and just spamming bastille to cover the whole room and forget about other abilities (sadly this is my playstyle with vauban)

[PerishedFraud]

You know what I want? An actual grenade launcher for him. 

Imagine having a gadget that launches grenades attached to his arm, and he actually fires them instead of throwing.

+visible projectile arc when you hold down the button (except for minelayer, naturally)

[LascarCapable]

il y a 24 minutes, CephalonNiksyn a dit :

I kinda didn't understand the concept of Turret and its synergy with Sensor specifically. If Sensor is made to spot enemy through walls, why would I need to place Turret, since I doubt you want it to shoot through walls. Second, is there really any reason to spot enemies through walls since we already have means to do that like Enemy Radar, Animal Instinct, Zenith's secondary fire mode?

Using a sensor allows your turret to target automatically all enemies spotted by your sensor without yourself having to trigger your turret manually by shootting. Basically, it make your turret behave by itself. Your turret cannot shoot enemies through walls, but it still allows you to see them coming.

About the sensor itself, of course some mods are going to make sensors a bit less useful, but you're not going to use the sensor too much for spotting. It's more going to be a tool that you use to deal more damage to enemies crossing a small perimeter. Basically, the damage bonus you earn from spotted targets is what's making worth it. It's like Banshee's Sonar : you usually use it for the weakspot damage bonus, not especially for the enemy sensing thing. As for the spotting, it exists because... Well, it's a sensor. Gotta be a bit immersive. It exists like the spotting exists for Banshee's Sonar. :p

I wanted the turret to not promote a lazy playstyle, but still allow for some sweet tricks. So I added that synergy so the user is able to make the turret guard some key areas while the user can wander elsewhere. It won't keep everything at bay though, so you have to work by yourself as well.

il y a 19 minutes, Edzhang a dit :

I like most of your idea, but personally i dont think i will use sensor as much as other traps, they all feel more useful than sensor.. 

Although i like the idea of smoke generator, i prefer the idea from another thread (sorry im using phone right now, cant check it) that gives vauban the ability to replenish ammo for the squad.. For bastille, i agree it needs to be limited so we cant go to a mission and just spamming bastille to cover the whole room and forget about other abilities (sadly this is my playstyle with vauban)

You can use sensors to improve further your damage output. It can still retain some usefulness, though it probably won't be that useful on the go.

As I said earlier, I don't want to give Vauban something that has a direct effect on allies, but your ammo generator thing gave me some kind of idea that could probably be a nice addition for Vauban's survivability. It would probably be something taking the form of some kind of EMP, preventing enemies from using weapons in a limited area and probably gathering ammo from enemy weapons as well.

il y a 24 minutes, CephalonNiksyn a dit :

I kinda didn't understand the concept of Turret and its synergy with Sensor specifically. If Sensor is made to spot enemy through walls, why would I need to place Turret, since I doubt you want it to shoot through walls. Second, is there really any reason to spot enemies through walls since we already have means to do that like Enemy Radar, Animal Instinct, Zenith's secondary fire mode?

I made a few conservative reworks about Vauban in the past. The only way I could see Vortex working without being outshined by Bastille or without outshining Bastille itself would be to increase its range a lot while limiting its duration a lot. This way, it would work more like a grenade, but it would actually be a great combo generator. The ability's cost would of course be reduced as well to fit more its new aspect of synergy catalyzer. Bastille on the other hand would get a lower range, better duration and replace Vortex as a 100 energy ability, a bit like what I suggested in that rework.

il y a 11 minutes, BeeOverlord a dit :

You know what I want? An actual grenade launcher for him. 

Imagine having a gadget that launches grenades attached to his arm, and he actually fires them instead of throwing.

+visible projectile arc when you hold down the button (except for minelayer, naturally)

A nade launcher exalted weapon ? That could be fun, though I'd more keep it for a fan concept (demoman frame anyone ?).

Edited June 3, 2018 by D20

[LascarCapable]

il y a 27 minutes, xXDeadsinxX a dit :

I don’t even like Booben at the moment with his current abilities, however, with your purposed rework, I might actually find interest in using him in the game.

Vauban Feedback:

• Passive:
  • You definitely nailed the passive portion for Vauban, it fits him quite well actually.
• Deployment:
  • Seems pretty good to me.
• Smoke Generator:
  • Seems pretty effiecent for being able to be stealth in any mission and can open enemies up for finishers, I dig it.
• Bastile:
  • Love the change that there is no enemy cap any more, definitely a good change for sure!
• Turret:
  • Pretty interesting, I’m guessing that it works for all weapons as well.
• Stat increase:
  • Making Vauban a little more tanky is a positive for me!

Overall, I love your purposed rework for Vauban!

Glad you love it. :)

[Edzhang]

6 minutes ago, D20 said:

You can use sensors to improve further your damage output. It can still retain some usefulness, though it probably won't be that useful on the go.

As I said earlier, I don't want to give Vauban something that has a direct effect on allies, but your ammo generator thing gave me some kind of idea that could probably be a nice addition for Vauban's survivability. It would probably be something taking the form of some kind of EMP, preventing enemies from using weapons in a limited area and probably gathering ammo from enemy weapons as well.

Another idea for sensor (if we can be a little overpower here, although this should be for banshee), the ability grants us some punch through to be able to shoot enemies through thin wall (like zenith, but not infinity) and maybe with some power strength, one room in front of us.. so we can do some stealth kill with it..

As for the EMP thing, maybe your smoke generator ability be like prevent enemies under the aoe to use their weapon, made them drop some ammo.. i dont know why, but in my mind i really want vauban be able to supply some ammo for the team..

I havent said anything about the passive, I LOVE IT.. already pictured the time i can bring my secura penta on the field again without killing myself (and maybe if DE really do this rework, i might regret ever dissolved my penta riven right after they fixed tether grenade’s self damage bug)

[KennBone]

hace 1 hora, D20 dijo:

That's probably due to that clunky feel. Smoke generator may be a lil bit cluky I agree. But I don't think I would include some stuff that would directly buff allies. I always see Vauban as a trap based trickster more than an engineer. I could try to find something else that could raise Vauban's survivability, but I don't want it to apply a direct buff for now. Anyway, we have already enough frames able to regenerate shields or health.

i see the point ty for clarify. so.. if the way is more " trap style " what abouth a zone of mines wich explode explosion+ fire dmg ? like the 3 rd skill but in the floor a circle of mines sound good and strong

[LascarCapable]

il y a une heure, davej83 a dit :

i see the point ty for clarify. so.. if the way is more " trap style " what abouth a zone of mines wich explode explosion+ fire dmg ? like the 3 rd skill but in the floor a circle of mines sound good and strong

I'd rather see something a bit more oriented towards allowing Vauban to not suffer damage too much.

Il y a 1 heure, Edzhang a dit :

Another idea for sensor (if we can be a little overpower here, although this should be for banshee), the ability grants us some punch through to be able to shoot enemies through thin wall (like zenith, but not infinity) and maybe with some power strength, one room in front of us.. so we can do some stealth kill with it..

As for the EMP thing, maybe your smoke generator ability be like prevent enemies under the aoe to use their weapon, made them drop some ammo.. i dont know why, but in my mind i really want vauban be able to supply some ammo for the team..

I havent said anything about the passive, I LOVE IT.. already pictured the time i can bring my secura penta on the field again without killing myself (and maybe if DE really do this rework, i might regret ever dissolved my penta riven right after they fixed tether grenade’s self damage bug)

I don't really see why a Sensor should give punch through. Also, I'd like to avoid making Vauban give buff to allies directly. As for the ammo thing, maybe I can make it so enemies killed inside the EMP field will drop additional ammo.

Glad you love the passive. :p

[Kaiath64]

hace 4 horas, D20 dijo:

Bastille is basically the only ability worth using in Vauban's kit.

Let me say no, i love vortex, more than that buggy bastille. Vortex need to stay, you can caught an unlimited amount of enemies in very precise places, and you can kill them up easily. You don't have to find every enemy that you caught like a full range bastille...

Edit: I can see the smoke generator with bright enermy as a useful tool... for trolls.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Kaiath64

[PerishedFraud]

4 hours ago, D20 said:

A nade launcher exalted weapon ? That could be fun, though I'd more keep it for a fan concept (demoman frame anyone ?).

No lol. I mean have the launcher be an actual part of Vauban himself, and he uses it to launch his abilities instead of throwing them.

The whole idea of a technologically advanced warframe chucking balls manually is funny, to be honest.

 

Edit: google gave me this, though I think it's more a rocket thingy. It isn't hard to imagine vauban's balls there instead.

Spoiler

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by BeeOverlord

[LascarCapable]

il y a 36 minutes, BeeOverlord a dit :

No lol. I mean have the launcher be an actual part of Vauban himself, and he uses it to launch his abilities instead of throwing them.

The whole idea of a technologically advanced warframe chucking balls manually is funny, to be honest.

 

Edit: google gave me this, though I think it's more a rocket thingy. It isn't hard to imagine vauban's balls there instead.

  Révéler le contenu masqué

 

Oh ! Well it would be cool as well, though I am afraid it could mean doing a few modification to Vauban's model.

It would be a strictly esthetic from what I understood, but it could be cool.

[LascarCapable]

Il y a 2 heures, Kaiath64 a dit :

Let me say no, i love vortex, more than that buggy bastille. Vortex need to stay, you can caught an unlimited amount of enemies in very precise places, and you can kill them up easily. You don't have to find every enemy that you caught like a full range bastille...

Edit: I can see the smoke generator with bright enermy as a useful tool... for trolls.

Please could you explain how the smoke generator could be used for trolling ?

[Azamagon]

3 hours ago, D20 said:

Please could you explain how the smoke generator could be used for trolling ?

He meant for the visual impairment if you use bright energy. But I guess the smoke would not be particularly visually cluttered for the players?

 

On to my own feedback:

Generally, I like what I see. Lots of natural synergy and room for creative combinations. Overall, I wouldn't mind these changes one bit, but I still have to point a few things I have some problems with:

1) You still have the Quiver-like mechanic. To be honest, I feel such a mechanic has no room on a Warframe like Vauban. With Smoke Generator, it might be a bit easier to change in a whim though (so that's in huge favor of your rework, no doubt), but Quiver-mechanics simply doesn't feel like it belongs on him. This gets exacerbated with your skills, not because the skills are bad, no, but because they have such great synergy between them! 😄 Meaning, it'd be quite clunky to setup all their synergies quickly.

On other hand, for Ivara, Quiver was implemented with the altfire of Artemis Bow in mind, along with her having a low-cost stealth ability to give her the time she needs to swap arrows at her own pace. Not to mention, she actually doesn't have any particular synergy among her Quiver arrows. At least in such a way that they don't need very rapid casting one after another, unlike your Deployment gadgets.

Don't get me wrong, your ideas are REALLY cool. But I'm afraid that, even if it's a VAST improvement, it will still feel rather clunky.
 

2) In line with the Quiver mechanic of Deployments, the gadgets you have given him are all creative and fun, no doubt, BUT there is this general feel of it still not fitting with Warframe's pacing (even the Quiver mechanic aside). Because, especially for the various Deployments, they require a lot of setup for still rather tiny benefits (although Deflector sounds like it will be SUPER useful skill for general combat), similar to the current Minelayer.
There is just too much "fiddling", and too little "get to the point!". Why have so many skills to move and detect and bounce and flip the enemies, when you could instead integrate them with as few abilities as possible?

I have done a rework myself (should be on the front page, won't link it as you said you didn't want whole rework-threads linked in here), attempting to trim as much fat from his kit as possible, so everything works in a more direct and snappy way, trying to avoid that "fiddling" feel he currently has. I guess that's the advice I'd give you: Try to cut off more of the fiddling and "messing around" as possible. My suggestions with that direction in mind would be something like this:

• Merge Sensor and Turret into one skill. That way, it's an autoturret that not only shoots enemies, but it also helps detecting enemies for you, making it feel a bit more like an ability worthy costing 100 energy (Sensor overall feels like a very meager skill by itself, just putting that out there)
• Make Landmine, Tether, Deflector and Smoke Generator into 2 tap/hold skills. For example (with placeholder names, mind you):
  • Ability 1 = Minelayer - Tap for Tether, hold for Landmine (either costs 25)
  • Ability 2 = Defender - Tap for Deflector, hold for Smoke Generator (either costs 50)

That way you have trimmed down an honestly superfluous skill (Sensor), while making it easier to deploy his remaining little gadgets with a lot more speed.

 

All that nitpicking and criticism aside, if your rework is what we get, I will still be much happier with that version Vauban than what we have now, that's for sure.

Cheers, keep up the creative work! 🙂

Edited June 3, 2018 by Azamagon

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I'm digging some of the ideas here.  But my main issue with it is that you're basically giving him a brand new kit with bastelle being the only thing coming from his prior kit.  I don't believe DE will do that.  I can see them replacing one ability.  Maybe giving him new deployables in his current tool belt.  But I can't imagine them scrapping 3 of his abilities.  I assume you didn't mention the bug with bastelle assuming the devs would fix it when they revisit him yes?

 

I guess my next big issue really is how offensive you've made him.  Booben seems like a tool specialist/supportive role.  The turret just feels out of place.  And I think the smoke idea is just a mess.  It would effect ally vision and I don't see that going well.  Plus Just making all enemies in there open to finishers just sounds too good.  I imagine people building just for that specifically.

And finally.  I really would miss the ability to trip enemies walking through a door way.  Found it to be quite fun.  I do think the sensor idea is pretty great.  Same with mine.  I LOVE the passive.  And bastelle not being effected by strength in regards to numbers of enemies held is great.

[LuckyCharm]

I could get behind all of these ideas. 

Maybe for his 4 the turret could also be interactable by allies so they can use it sort of like a rampart. 

 

I dont really like smoke detector though, id much rather have something like

UPGRADE: vauban upgrades his own or currently targeted ally's primary weapon to (-insert effect here- something like firing guided bullets or add some sort of damage upgrade. Aoe explosions on hit or something)

That way you can place down your cover, setup your area, and then start mowing down enemies with your weapons

[Pyra_Firestone]

Would totally start using vauban again if these changes were implemented. especially removing bastilles stupid enemy cap, (same issue with nekros terrify) 

[LascarCapable]

Il y a 5 heures, Azamagon a dit :

He meant for the visual impairment if you use bright energy. But I guess the smoke would not be particularly visually cluttered for the players?

 

On to my own feedback:

Generally, I like what I see. Lots of natural synergy and room for creative combinations. Overall, I wouldn't mind these changes one bit, but I still have to point a few things I have some problems with:

1) You still have the Quiver-like mechanic. To be honest, I feel such a mechanic has no room on a Warframe like Vauban. With Smoke Generator, it might be a bit easier to change in a whim though (so that's in huge favor of your rework, no doubt), but Quiver-mechanics simply doesn't feel like it belongs on him. This gets exacerbated with your skills, not because the skills are bad, no, but because they have such great synergy between them! 😄 Meaning, it'd be quite clunky to setup all their synergies quickly.

On other hand, for Ivara, Quiver was implemented with the altfire of Artemis Bow in mind, along with her having a low-cost stealth ability to give her the time she needs to swap arrows at her own pace. Not to mention, she actually doesn't have any particular synergy among her Quiver arrows. At least in such a way that they don't need very rapid casting one after another, unlike your Deployment gadgets.

Don't get me wrong, your ideas are REALLY cool. But I'm afraid that, even if it's a VAST improvement, it will still feel rather clunky.
 

2) In line with the Quiver mechanic of Deployments, the gadgets you have given him are all creative and fun, no doubt, BUT there is this general feel of it still not fitting with Warframe's pacing (even the Quiver mechanic aside). Because, especially for the various Deployments, they require a lot of setup for still rather tiny benefits (although Deflector sounds like it will be SUPER useful skill for general combat), similar to the current Minelayer.
There is just too much "fiddling", and too little "get to the point!". Why have so many skills to move and detect and bounce and flip the enemies, when you could instead integrate them with as few abilities as possible?

I have done a rework myself (should be on the front page, won't link it as you said you didn't want whole rework-threads linked in here), attempting to trim as much fat from his kit as possible, so everything works in a more direct and snappy way, trying to avoid that "fiddling" feel he currently has. I guess that's the advice I'd give you: Try to cut off more of the fiddling and "messing around" as possible. My suggestions with that direction in mind would be something like this:

• Merge Sensor and Turret into one skill. That way, it's an autoturret that not only shoots enemies, but it also helps detecting enemies for you, making it feel a bit more like an ability worthy costing 100 energy (Sensor overall feels like a very meager skill by itself, just putting that out there)
• Make Landmine, Tether, Deflector and Smoke Generator into 2 tap/hold skills. For example (with placeholder names, mind you):
  • Ability 1 = Minelayer - Tap for Tether, hold for Landmine (either costs 25)
  • Ability 2 = Defender - Tap for Deflector, hold for Smoke Generator (either costs 50)

That way you have trimmed down an honestly superfluous skill (Sensor), while making it easier to deploy his remaining little gadgets with a lot more speed.

 

All that nitpicking and criticism aside, if your rework is what we get, I will still be much happier with that version Vauban than what we have now, that's for sure.

Cheers, keep up the creative work! 🙂

Now this is some extremely useful feedback. Many good points have been raised here, and I really like the ideas suggested to make everything flow better. I will have to make stuff change slightly in order to keep things logical, but in the end it should remain very similar to the base idea. Tether is likely going to be replaced by some kind of "Vortex mine" that pull all enemies in a radius when triggered for exemple. As your "defender" ability suggestion, I will probably outright replace the smoke generator since many people seems to have an issue with it. 

About combining the turret and the sensor, that is something I probably won't do. I don't want players to just toss the turret and let it do their kills for them while they go afk. So I made the turret tied to the player's own action as the main behaviour, and added a small synergy with the sensor to add just enough of an automatic behaviour to spice it up. Fully autonomous turret is a no go. However I could add a very similar synergy with the mines of your first ability : any enemy triggering a mine will be marked, allowing your turret to attack them automatically.

I will definitely change the main post soon to apply those ideas.

Il y a 5 heures, (XB1)Knight Raime a dit :

I'm digging some of the ideas here.  But my main issue with it is that you're basically giving him a brand new kit with bastelle being the only thing coming from his prior kit.  I don't believe DE will do that.  I can see them replacing one ability.  Maybe giving him new deployables in his current tool belt.  But I can't imagine them scrapping 3 of his abilities.  I assume you didn't mention the bug with bastelle assuming the devs would fix it when they revisit him yes?

 

I guess my next big issue really is how offensive you've made him.  Booben seems like a tool specialist/supportive role.  The turret just feels out of place.  And I think the smoke idea is just a mess.  It would effect ally vision and I don't see that going well.  Plus Just making all enemies in there open to finishers just sounds too good.  I imagine people building just for that specifically.

And finally.  I really would miss the ability to trip enemies walking through a door way.  Found it to be quite fun.  I do think the sensor idea is pretty great.  Same with mine.  I LOVE the passive.  And bastelle not being effected by strength in regards to numbers of enemies held is great.

I suggested multiple conservative reworks in the past, but as of today I think a more radical rework would be much more enjoyable. DE rarely every applies a full suggestion made by a single user anyway. The goal of those kind of feedback threads is more to give ideas to the staff than anything.

That version of Vauban is indeed a bit more offensive for a very good reason : Vauban lacked versatility. Aside from CC, Vauban has almost no purpose, and as of Today he's literally outshined by Hydroid who is another frame solely focused on Crowd Control (if you do not use augments), but does it much better with much more survivability. Making Vauban more offensive was both a valid way to make him feel less like a worse Hydroid and more versatile. Instead of being almost only focused around CC, you can now debuff, bring cover and deal very good damage overall with your traps in addition to that Crowd Control.

Now about that tripwire, it was fun for 5 minutes, then it reaaaaally started to show some lack of utility. :/

Glad you like the Sensor. Too bad I will probably have to toss it away in favor of something else (I really want to apply Azamagon's suggestion). Really glad you like the passive and the Bastille change tho : this is very likely here to stay. :p

il y a une heure, LuckyCharm a dit :

I could get behind all of these ideas. 

Maybe for his 4 the turret could also be interactable by allies so they can use it sort of like a rampart. 

 

I dont really like smoke detector though, id much rather have something like

UPGRADE: vauban upgrades his own or currently targeted ally's primary weapon to (-insert effect here- something like firing guided bullets or add some sort of damage upgrade. Aoe explosions on hit or something)

That way you can place down your cover, setup your area, and then start mowing down enemies with your weapons

Good news : the smoke generator will very likely go away in favor of another defensive tool. :p

However, I will NOT add an ability that looks more or less like a direct buff for allies : it's just does not reflect my vision of Vauban.

il y a 11 minutes, Pyra_Firestone a dit :

Would totally start using vauban again if these changes were implemented. especially removing bastilles stupid enemy cap, (same issue with nekros terrify) 

Glad you like it. :)