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The Tenno Are Not Invincible


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11 hours ago, LightningsVengance said:

Regardless of the arguments that are being put up, I think that we can all agree if a cell (or squad) of Tenno came to IRL Earth and wanted to kill everything we are inadequately prepared.

Frankly, depending on the Tenno and their Warframe in question, they might not even need a full squad to cause an apocalyptic event. I mean, imagine any existing earth army trying to fight Limbo. Or, in fact, imagine any political leader trying to not get assassinated by him. Limbo could literally just walk up to any given defense, White House, Pentagon, Secure vault in Area 51 and there would be nothing we could do about it. Even hiding its location would be hard considering Tenno's capacity for hacking.

Other frames that could wipe us out alone might include Saryn (walking gas bioweapon), Nidus (similar deal, but slower since he's more defensive), Wukong (can't kill him) and Mag (Rest in Pieces Computer systems)

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52 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Frankly, depending on the Tenno and their Warframe in question, they might not even need a full squad to cause an apocalyptic event. I mean, imagine any existing earth army trying to fight Limbo. Or, in fact, imagine any political leader trying to not get assassinated by him. Limbo could literally just walk up to any given defense, White House, Pentagon, Secure vault in Area 51 and there would be nothing we could do about it. Even hiding its location would be hard considering Tenno's capacity for hacking.

Other frames that could wipe us out alone might include Saryn (walking gas bioweapon), Nidus (similar deal, but slower since he's more defensive), Wukong (can't kill him) and Mag (Rest in Pieces Computer systems)

...Man it must stink to be a Grinner... Everything is fine, you're having a good day then an ability get cast on you and you're either stunned, dead, killing your brethren or some other unexplored option. I think the easiest single frame we'd be semi-okay with IRL is Vauban, and even then that'd would still be like really, really hard... (roughly impossible)

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Imho the warframes would win in any given universes....i mean think about it, they're in game so their abilitues are nerfed to not break it but if we were to say a frame like limbo, he's basically a god that can do pretty much anything..then we got nekros which could be considered a god of death, nidud wouldnt need to do much...just infect 1 person and an entire population would die off, i mean we all know how fast the infested spread.All in all, my point is even tho the tennos/warframes arent called literal "gods" but I'd say they're somewhere around a lesser god level since the tennos arent fully "awakened" yet.

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)ITS_TH3GOD said:

Imho the warframes would win in any given universes....i mean think about it, they're in game so their abilitues are nerfed to not break it but if we were to say a frame like limbo, he's basically a god that can do pretty much anything..then we got nekros which could be considered a god of death, nidud wouldnt need to do much...just infect 1 person and an entire population would die off, i mean we all know how fast the infested spread.All in all, my point is even tho the tennos/warframes arent called literal "gods" but I'd say they're somewhere around a lesser god level since the tennos arent fully "awakened" yet.

Nah, that is too much of an exaggeration. Other than the one and only Limbo, most of them are probably only Xmen (Marvel) level at best.

Their actual lore abilities aren't really that strong, except in comparison with the Grineer and Corpus. None of them possess causality manipulation or concept rewriting ability.

The Operator and their Void Power is also probably not that great overall, since it is just phasing, force fields and energy projection. Good power to have but not utterly OP.

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1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

Nah, that is too much of an exaggeration. Other than the one and only Limbo, most of them are probably only Xmen (Marvel) level at best.

Their actual lore abilities aren't really that strong, except in comparison with the Grineer and Corpus. None of them possess causality manipulation or concept rewriting ability.

The Operator and their Void Power is also probably not that great overall, since it is just phasing, force fields and energy projection. Good power to have but not utterly OP.

Well, there is the original Inaros. Sandstorm large enough to pierce the heavens, anyone?

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2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Nah, that is too much of an exaggeration. Other than the one and only Limbo, most of them are probably only Xmen (Marvel) level at best.

Their actual lore abilities aren't really that strong, except in comparison with the Grineer and Corpus. None of them possess causality manipulation or concept rewriting ability.

The Operator and their Void Power is also probably not that great overall, since it is just phasing, force fields and energy projection. Good power to have but not utterly OP.

While I also don't think they're on the level of gods, from what we see in the lore it seems like the actual abilities (that we don't see cuz it'd be way too OP for a game) are more or less what they can do in game, but amplified insanely, beyond Xmen level. Personally I think the majority of them would be between the two. 

And do not underestimate the void power of the operators. For starters, (it has already been mentioned in this thread) during TWW, Ordis told us to look out with the void beam, because it would blast a hole through the ship, so we know that one Tenno could very possibly take down a spaceship without any tools needed, and by now we have amps, which enhance it even further. On top of that our invisibility isn't just being invisible, we actually move into the void, so we have no actual trail or anything. Besides that, if I remember correctly, it is stated that we use the warframes to channel our power safely, meaning that all warframe powers are powered by the operator's void powers. In other words: we are at least as strong as the strongest warframe ability-wise. 

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38 minutes ago, icemasterJ said:

While I also don't think they're on the level of gods, from what we see in the lore it seems like the actual abilities (that we don't see cuz it'd be way too OP for a game) are more or less what they can do in game, but amplified insanely, beyond Xmen level. Personally I think the majority of them would be between the two. 

You are underestimating the Xmen here. While there are a load of weak mutants, people like Jean Grey or Magneto (to name a few) are demonstrably stronger than the Warframes.

As I would quote Clarke, with a twist "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Same for abilities. Sufficiently advanced abilities appear godlike to the primitive who lack them.

The Warframes are the only so called "power users" in the Tennoverse. Everyone else uses technology constrained more or less by in universe! (Not real life) physics. 

Hence, it cannot be said that they are that powerful, lorewise, not because they are demonstrably weak, but simply because they lack any opponent who would suggest that level of power.

43 minutes ago, icemasterJ said:

 
And do not underestimate the void power of the operators. For starters, (it has already been mentioned in this thread) during TWW, Ordis told us to look out with the void beam, because it would blast a hole through the ship, so we know that one Tenno could very possibly take down a spaceship without any tools needed, and by now we have amps, which enhance it even further. 

Untrue. Blasting a hole through a ship does not suggest enough power to vaporise a whole ship, or even god like levels of power. Even a gun/melee can technically breach the glass on a spacecraft, which is probably what Ordis is referring to. It isn't so much as destruction of the spacecraft as a hull breach and resulting decompression that one would be worried about.

In fact, taking down a spacecraft would be no different from a current day antitank missile breaching armor or an anti air missile taking out an aircraft. There is nothing glorious about it. Even a 30mm armor piercing round RL is likely to be able to pierce the hull of a spaceship as there is no air resistance in space to slow it down.

 

47 minutes ago, icemasterJ said:

On top of that our invisibility isn't just being invisible, we actually move into the void, so we have no actual trail or anything. Besides that, if I remember correctly, it is stated that we use the warframes to channel our power safely, meaning that all warframe powers are powered by the operator's void powers. In other words: we are at least as strong as the strongest warframe ability-wise. 

Notice I say phasing, not invisibility. Because you are also intangible.

Also, to say the least, being a battery does not mean one is automatically as strong as what it powers. A lightbulb is definitely way better at lightning up a room than a power plug/battery.

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28 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

You are underestimating the Xmen here. While there are a load of weak mutants, people like Jean Grey or Magneto (to name a few) are demonstrably stronger than the Warframes.

 

I will give you that I may have underestimated the Xmen, but I personally think you're underestimating the warframes and operators. then again, we have presumably never seen a warframe/operator at their true strength, let alone see the limit of their powers. So who knows, maybe they are like you say, or maybe they are truly gods. I personally hope we actually get to see some of that stuff in the Sacrifice.

Either way, I'd still say the Tenno would win in the majority of other sci-fi universes (but I would no longer bet on a Mag in a 1v1 against Magneto).

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Just now, icemasterJ said:

I will give you that I may have underestimated the Xmen, but I personally think you're underestimating the warframes and operators. then again, we have presumably never seen a warframe/operator at their true strength, let alone see the limit of their powers. So who knows, maybe they are like you say, or maybe they are truly gods. I personally hope we actually get to see some of that stuff in the Sacrifice.

Either way, I'd still say the Tenno would win in the majority of other sci-fi universes (but I wouldn't bet on a Mag in a 1v1 against Magneto).

Until I actually see an operator use void beam without an amp slicing through a Formorian, I won't buy the fact that the Warframes and Operators are that strong. Simply because there is a verifiable lack of opponents and destructible objects to suggest anything greater than what we are already seeing. Insofar, the Warframes have no great feats that are actually proof of a greater power - you could argue "Gara vs the Eidolon" or "Inaros vs the Infested", which I can explain.

1. Gara vs the Eidolon - Gara's operator could very well have just handled the Eidolon how we handle them solo right now. Nothing spectacular, really. It is probably purposely left vague just for the sake of it.

2. Inaros' "Sky Piercing Sandstorm" - easily explained as exaggeration. It happens in real life mythos enough, why would it be any more true in Warframe?

3. War gods? - The tenno are a bunch of power users fighting normies. If you had say some level of telekinetic power/force fields RL right now, you'd still be a nearly invincible walking death machine to normal people simply because you can do things they cannot. You wouldn't even be close to a god, but to normal people, you'd be one. Always think about the "perspective".

4. Slaying the Orokin? - Nothing suggests the Orokin were power users with the ability to break the laws of physics, just high tech people who can bend it using technology.

The lack of proof that it doesn't exist isn't proof that it exists. We have not seen an operator's "true strength", so it could be less than what we were expecting. It's the same argument Theists use to justify that god exists, or Atheists use to justify that god does not exist. The onus would be on the claimant that Warframes are "stronger than we see" to prove that they actually are, not for the skeptics to disprove the assumed "full power" that is supposedly hidden.

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1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

Until I actually see an operator use void beam without an amp slicing through a Formorian, I won't buy the fact that the Warframes and Operators are that strong. Simply because there is a verifiable lack of opponents and destructible objects to suggest anything greater than what we are already seeing. Insofar, the Warframes have no great feats that are actually proof of a greater power - you could argue "Gara vs the Eidolon" or "Inaros vs the Infested", which I can explain.

1. Gara vs the Eidolon - Gara's operator could very well have just handled the Eidolon how we handle them solo right now. Nothing spectacular, really. It is probably purposely left vague just for the sake of it.

2. Inaros' "Sky Piercing Sandstorm" - easily explained as exaggeration. It happens in real life mythos enough, why would it be any more true in Warframe?

3. War gods? - The tenno are a bunch of power users fighting normies. If you had say some level of telekinetic power/force fields RL right now, you'd still be a nearly invincible walking death machine to normal people simply because you can do things they cannot. You wouldn't even be close to a god, but to normal people, you'd be one. Always think about the "perspective".

4. Slaying the Orokin? - Nothing suggests the Orokin were power users with the ability to break the laws of physics, just high tech people who can bend it using technology.

The lack of proof that it doesn't exist isn't proof that it exists. We have not seen an operator's "true strength", so it could be less than what we were expecting. It's the same argument Theists use to justify that god exists, or Atheists use to justify that god does not exist. The onus would be on the claimant that Warframes are "stronger than we see" to prove that they actually are, not for the skeptics to disprove the assumed "full power" that is supposedly hidden.

Correct me if im wrong but wasnt it mentioned somewhere within either TWW or TSD that the tennos/warframes havent fully awakened yet? Meaning thats not the full extent of their abilities.

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5 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Nah, that is too much of an exaggeration. Other than the one and only Limbo, most of them are probably only Xmen (Marvel) level at best.

Their actual lore abilities aren't really that strong, except in comparison with the Grineer and Corpus. None of them possess causality manipulation or concept rewriting ability.

The Operator and their Void Power is also probably not that great overall, since it is just phasing, force fields and energy projection. Good power to have but not utterly OP.

nah limbo isnt the only one..to me i believe these 5 frames would be rated " beyond omega level" by marvel's power placement.

Limbo: for obvious reason, can pretty much do anything.

Nova: anti-matter control on a massive scale.

Nyx: again mind control and her 4 is real OP.

Nidus: again we all know that the infested only need ONE victim to affect a whole universe and nidus is a walking spore of them.

Rhino: i believe rhino is the hulk on steroid, heck the guy can stop time and affect gravity with just a stomp...something even the hulk cant do.

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52 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Until I actually see an operator use void beam without an amp slicing through a Formorian, I won't buy the fact that the Warframes and Operators are that strong. Simply because there is a verifiable lack of opponents and destructible objects to suggest anything greater than what we are already seeing. Insofar, the Warframes have no great feats that are actually proof of a greater power - you could argue "Gara vs the Eidolon" or "Inaros vs the Infested", which I can explain.

1. Gara vs the Eidolon - Gara's operator could very well have just handled the Eidolon how we handle them solo right now. Nothing spectacular, really. It is probably purposely left vague just for the sake of it.

2. Inaros' "Sky Piercing Sandstorm" - easily explained as exaggeration. It happens in real life mythos enough, why would it be any more true in Warframe?

3. War gods? - The tenno are a bunch of power users fighting normies. If you had say some level of telekinetic power/force fields RL right now, you'd still be a nearly invincible walking death machine to normal people simply because you can do things they cannot. You wouldn't even be close to a god, but to normal people, you'd be one. Always think about the "perspective".

4. Slaying the Orokin? - Nothing suggests the Orokin were power users with the ability to break the laws of physics, just high tech people who can bend it using technology.

The lack of proof that it doesn't exist isn't proof that it exists. We have not seen an operator's "true strength", so it could be less than what we were expecting. It's the same argument Theists use to justify that god exists, or Atheists use to justify that god does not exist. The onus would be on the claimant that Warframes are "stronger than we see" to prove that they actually are, not for the skeptics to disprove the assumed "full power" that is supposedly hidden.

1: Gara didn't fight a Teralyst, she fought the whole body AND all it's fully active, fully aware Teralysts, Gantulysts, Hydrolysts and the like. If you look out in the Plains of Eidolon skybox you'll see a large, circular mountain-like structure in the distance. That's the Sentient corpse. That what Gara solo'd. And then imagine every Eidolon hunt you've done, but on at once and with them actually aiming for you and not randomly firing attacks that sometimes home in on you on top of that body.

2: Good point, well made. But I counter you this point: In the Limbo Theorem, the eponymous theorem goes into some details about the powers of the rift and the original Limbo, and they eclipse our use of him just as much as Inaros's legends eclipse our gameplay of Inaros. The quote in question is: "Sending whole armies into a purgatory of his own making!" As an avid user of Limbo I can tell you for a fact even at maximum range, I can't hit a whole army with the rift. And the phrase purgatory, combined especially with limbo being one of the circles of hell, makes the rift under Limbo's control seem downright hellish, which it isn't right now, at all. This means that it stands to reason that the original Limbo was much, MUCH stronger than even ours. And, since this comes from a mathematical formula that eclipses the logical understanding of our comprehension of maths, this tells us that any exaggeration is most likely minimal, since that'd probably screw with the maths, meaning that we can take those facts as pretty much true.

3: I mean, the Orokin (who I'll go into detail as to why they seem pretty powerful in the next point) also considered them as extremely powerful with all their tech and science wizardry. Quotes like "They're devils from that hell" and the like imply that they held Tenno potential in that kind of regard despite being an order of magnitude or more higher than the Grineer or Corpus in terms of technological might. And they STILL considered the Tenno as devilishly powerful.

4: I don't know about you, but recent events seem to suggest that the Orokin were way more powerful than we originally thought. Balls has telekinesis and teleportation powers, and that's just what we've seen so far. He can also, according to a recent devstream, wield his sword one-handed. In that same stream, it's implied the Tenno would need two. In the entry for Galatine Prime it calls out that "Only the Tenno could wield [it]". Which implies we were physically stronger than most back in Orokin times, and by scaling, that Ballas and the other very high ranking Orokin were even stronger, since they can one-hand wield something we need two hands to. So Orokin are certainly no slouches when it comes to power, the higher-ups at least.

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Though I'll admit, the tennos/warframes arent invincible but their feats are remarkable.so for someone to defeat them, they'll need to be at the spectre's(DCU) level at the very least or jean grey with the Phoenix force(marvel)...IF you dont agree just remember one simple feat the tennos/warframes have under their belt..which is defeating sentients heck natah herself(which we can all agree isnt as powerful as the other original sentients) moved the moon,i mean the freaking moon lol without anyone even noticing..which implies that she didnt use her physical strength but her actual powers to teleport it.yet we've defeated stronger sentients ex: gara on the plains.

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5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

1: Gara didn't fight a Teralyst, she fought the whole body AND all it's fully active, fully aware Teralysts, Gantulysts, Hydrolysts and the like. If you look out in the Plains of Eidolon skybox you'll see a large, circular mountain-like structure in the distance. That's the Sentient corpse. That what Gara solo'd. And then imagine every Eidolon hunt you've done, but on at once and with them actually aiming for you and not randomly firing attacks that sometimes home in on you on top of that body.

She also had the fancy technology and all back then. And I don't think she survived like our Tenno after our good ol Eidolon Hunt. Thing is, she died for good.

Which means there IS a limit to that power. An upper limit that burns the user out if they fight that level of Sentient.

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

2: Good point, well made. But I counter you this point: In the Limbo Theorem, the eponymous theorem goes into some details about the powers of the rift and the original Limbo, and they eclipse our use of him just as much as Inaros's legends eclipse our gameplay of Inaros. The quote in question is: "Sending whole armies into a purgatory of his own making!" As an avid user of Limbo I can tell you for a fact even at maximum range, I can't hit a whole army with the rift. And the phrase purgatory, combined especially with limbo being one of the circles of hell, makes the rift under Limbo's control seem downright hellish, which it isn't right now, at all. This means that it stands to reason that the original Limbo was much, MUCH stronger than even ours. And, since this comes from a mathematical formula that eclipses the logical understanding of our comprehension of maths, this tells us that any exaggeration is most likely minimal, since that'd probably screw with the maths, meaning that we can take those facts as pretty much true.

Again, it can be exaggeration. You seem to be saying it is true simply because of "fancy mathematics" which you cannot comprehend in game, but just look at modern day maths. There's a lot you need a computer to do, because a human brain can't do fourth dimensional calculations or 11 dimension vectors.The fact it can even become a formula means it is within the limits of human imagination. It is simply an equation that no one knows yet, or has proven, but it is very real ... like how strange our 11 dimensional vector graphs are to mathematicians ages ago. Nothing spectacular.

Purgatory isn't even hellish at all. The actual purgatory was simply a "holding room of souls" where souls are purified before ascending to heaven. Not a realm of hell. That is something we can see in game, because stasis turns everything in the rift into well, suspended animation, and we kill them with our memestrike Atterax, therefore "sending them to the gods". Limbo's name has nothing to do with hell either, and is the suspension of souls between worlds. Which fits in with his theme as well.

As for not hitting a whole army ... again, easy to exaggerate for effect. Ordis has shown himself as a very unreliable narrator.

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

3: I mean, the Orokin (who I'll go into detail as to why they seem pretty powerful in the next point) also considered them as extremely powerful with all their tech and science wizardry. Quotes like "They're devils from that hell" and the like imply that they held Tenno potential in that kind of regard despite being an order of magnitude or more higher than the Grineer or Corpus in terms of technological might. And they STILL considered the Tenno as devilishly powerful.

Again, we have not seen a demonstration of that "full power". "Devil from that hell" is a pretty liberal term. Heck, even a guy who brought a machine gun into a school could be seen as one, to use analogue. I argue based on "perspective". The Orokin only held such a view because the Tenno kids have something they lack - the power to control and release void energy. Literal space magic with no technological intermediary needed. People fear the unknown instinctively, and no level of power would take away that primal fear. Having an assault rifle and body armor doesn't make you stop fearing a sniper on the battlefield.

The devilish and demonic nature of the Tenno is because of their mystery, not their raw power, it can be argued. Simply because no one knew what they could do, not because people knew what they were capable of. Unknowns causing fear.

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

4: I don't know about you, but recent events seem to suggest that the Orokin were way more powerful than we originally thought. Balls has telekinesis and teleportation powers, and that's just what we've seen so far. He can also, according to a recent devstream, wield his sword one-handed. In that same stream, it's implied the Tenno would need two. In the entry for Galatine Prime it calls out that "Only the Tenno could wield [it]". Which implies we were physically stronger than most back in Orokin times, and by scaling, that Ballas and the other very high ranking Orokin were even stronger, since they can one-hand wield something we need two hands to. So Orokin are certainly no slouches when it comes to power, the higher-ups at least.

When the Devs say Tenno, did they specify "Warframe" or the actual flesh and blood operator? Because I am pretty sure the weapons the operator would need two hands to wield could probably be used one handed by Ballas. Teleportation is nothing spectacular, because technically the Void Dash and some Warframe powers are similar in nature, and it isn't exactly powerful in the way it is used. Telekinesis, if you assume so because of him disconnecting Lotus from the wires, it could be the Lotus disconnecting herself for all we know.

Galatine Prime is wielded only by Warframes, as far as I know. But this makes a contradiction, doesn't it? Galatine Prime can be used two handed or even one handed by the Tenno in their Warframe (look at Tempo Royale). This would suggest Ballas (and by inference the other high ranking Orokin) would be able to wield the Galatine Prime one handed. But that contradicts "only the Tenno can wield it". Which brings me to the previous point - Ballas' sword needing two hands is by the operator, not the warframe. Which isn't unfair power. Simply a buff adult vs a teenager who suffers atrophy in his muscles.

5 hours ago, (PS4)ITS_TH3GOD said:

Correct me if im wrong but wasnt it mentioned somewhere within either TWW or TSD that the tennos/warframes havent fully awakened yet? Meaning thats not the full extent of their abilities.

Do you think you have filled out all your focus trees when you just finished TWW? Just sayin...

It wouldn't be relevant anyway because you definitely have not fully awakened even if such was mentioned. You haven't even unlocked all nodes as a Gameplay mechanic!

5 hours ago, (PS4)ITS_TH3GOD said:

nah limbo isnt the only one..to me i believe these 5 frames would be rated " beyond omega level" by marvel's power placement.

Limbo: for obvious reason, can pretty much do anything.

Nova: anti-matter control on a massive scale.

Limbo I already mentioned. To be honest, his ability is basically just a lower end "space time manipulation" and "pocket universe". Doesn't make him weak. Yes, this one I agree would be placed high even in Marvel Standards. He's just that strong.

Nova ... nothing really suggests that she can control huge amounts of antimatter. We just know she can control antimatter. Null Star isn't very amazing. Neither is Molecular Prime, TBH.

5 hours ago, (PS4)ITS_TH3GOD said:

Nyx: again mind control and her 4 is real OP.

Nyx is demonstrably way weaker than a lot of mind controllers in the amount of minds she can control perfectly and the level of control she exhibits. Professor X, Psylocke (before she became a ninja) and Emma Frost would be the more prominent examples, or if you want weirder ones from weirder places (well, anime), there are people like say Lelouch from Code Geass or Miku Izayoi from Date a Live.

Absorb can only absorb as much as Nyx' energy would allow anyway, which leaves her with none of her other powers. It doesn't even do much damage and she's stuck there unless you use assimilate. Nyx is definitely not even close to Omega level.

5 hours ago, (PS4)ITS_TH3GOD said:

Nidus: again we all know that the infested only need ONE victim to affect a whole universe and nidus is a walking spore of them.

Rhino: i believe rhino is the hulk on steroid, heck the guy can stop time and affect gravity with just a stomp...something even the hulk cant do

That is a huge exaggeration. Saryn would be a better argument than Nidus, if you talk about how infectious the power is. If that were true the infested would have already taken over the solar system. Doesn't seem like it though.

Hulk also has feats Rhino can't do. Like take more punishment than Rhino and regenerate. You seem to be forgetting Rhino's stomp is still space magic and powered by the void. It is more similar to Doctor Strange playing around with the Time Gem than Hulk punching the ground. Hulk isn't a space magician. Rhino still is.

 

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2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

because a human brain can't do fourth dimensional calculations

A human brain can do 4th dimensional calculations (not really trying to make a point, just a small bother).

 

 

2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

When the Devs say Tenno, did they specify "Warframe" or the actual flesh and blood operator?

Definitely meant Warframe, since they were talking about gameplay and lore.

 

 

2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Do you think you have filled out all your focus trees when you just finished TWW? Just sayin...

 

I highly doubt they meant you had to max out your focus tree, it seems more likely to me that they'll introduce something else in the Sacrifice or other upcoming quests. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Saryn would be a better argument than Nidus, if you talk about how infectious the power is.

Saryn would be better in-battle, but Nidus has the cyst that transfers via contact and can create infested (also, it's stated warframes are unable to be assimilated by infested, but bringing it in contact with a kubrow egg will turn it in an infested, so it's very possible that it can also turn non-resistant people). In this case Nidus would be great to at least weaken an army with an infestation plague.

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2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

She also had the fancy technology and all back then. And I don't think she survived like our Tenno after our good ol Eidolon Hunt. Thing is, she died for good.

Which means there IS a limit to that power. An upper limit that burns the user out if they fight that level of Sentient.

Again, it can be exaggeration. You seem to be saying it is true simply because of "fancy mathematics" which you cannot comprehend in game, but just look at modern day maths. There's a lot you need a computer to do, because a human brain can't do fourth dimensional calculations or 11 dimension vectors.The fact it can even become a formula means it is within the limits of human imagination. It is simply an equation that no one knows yet, or has proven, but it is very real ... like how strange our 11 dimensional vector graphs are to mathematicians ages ago. Nothing spectacular.

Purgatory isn't even hellish at all. The actual purgatory was simply a "holding room of souls" where souls are purified before ascending to heaven. Not a realm of hell. That is something we can see in game, because stasis turns everything in the rift into well, suspended animation, and we kill them with our memestrike Atterax, therefore "sending them to the gods". Limbo's name has nothing to do with hell either, and is the suspension of souls between worlds. Which fits in with his theme as well.

As for not hitting a whole army ... again, easy to exaggerate for effect. Ordis has shown himself as a very unreliable narrator.

Again, we have not seen a demonstration of that "full power". "Devil from that hell" is a pretty liberal term. Heck, even a guy who brought a machine gun into a school could be seen as one, to use analogue. I argue based on "perspective". The Orokin only held such a view because the Tenno kids have something they lack - the power to control and release void energy. Literal space magic with no technological intermediary needed. People fear the unknown instinctively, and no level of power would take away that primal fear. Having an assault rifle and body armor doesn't make you stop fearing a sniper on the battlefield.

The devilish and demonic nature of the Tenno is because of their mystery, not their raw power, it can be argued. Simply because no one knew what they could do, not because people knew what they were capable of. Unknowns causing fear.

When the Devs say Tenno, did they specify "Warframe" or the actual flesh and blood operator? Because I am pretty sure the weapons the operator would need two hands to wield could probably be used one handed by Ballas. Teleportation is nothing spectacular, because technically the Void Dash and some Warframe powers are similar in nature, and it isn't exactly powerful in the way it is used. Telekinesis, if you assume so because of him disconnecting Lotus from the wires, it could be the Lotus disconnecting herself for all we know.

Galatine Prime is wielded only by Warframes, as far as I know. But this makes a contradiction, doesn't it? Galatine Prime can be used two handed or even one handed by the Tenno in their Warframe (look at Tempo Royale). This would suggest Ballas (and by inference the other high ranking Orokin) would be able to wield the Galatine Prime one handed. But that contradicts "only the Tenno can wield it". Which brings me to the previous point - Ballas' sword needing two hands is by the operator, not the warframe. Which isn't unfair power. Simply a buff adult vs a teenager who suffers atrophy in his muscles.

 

 

Point 1: I wasn't arguing Gara didn't have a limit. I was arguing that the feat was far and away greater than we have displayed in game. Which I'd say I've proved pretty distinctly thus far.

Point 2: Maths is maths. You can't exaggerate with Mathematics. Limbo's life story was given in pure maths (which is the incomprehensible element. Our comprehension of logic, and judging by Ordis's surprise, Orokin comprehension disallows this, yet Limbo did it anyway), which means that if something is in that formula, it happened. Even if we consider Ordis's exaggerations up-scaling it to an army from, a corps or a division, Limbo's potential is still an order of magnitude higher or more, at the very minimum from our current power. If we are exaggerating from a division, which according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica has 7,000 troops as the lower bounds, and considering our Limbo usually gets around two digits of enemies, maybe at most 100-ish, then that's more than ten times higher, which is an order of magnitude.

Point 3: Perfectly fair. The fear of the unknown is a valid reason for them to be frightened of us. However, we do know that the Tenno had to be in the ballpark of the Orokin, because we have seen numerous references to Tenno injuring or killing Orokin. Generally, we only fear the unknown when that unknown can be a threat to us. If we were significantly weaker, than they wouldn't be afraid of us.

Point 4: Devstream 105. The quotes are "You'd need two hands to wield it... for a Warframe" and "Ballas wouldn't need two hands" So, yeah, they specify Warframes, not Operator. Additionally, Warframe teleportation maxes out at a couple of hundred metres, wheras Ballas and Lotus are just entirely gone. It's heavily implied they went for miles, possibly even interplanetary. Although the exact distance is speculative, there wasn't really anything within line of sight for a couple of hundred metres for him to disappear to. We also DO know the wires were done by Ballas, because he gestures and there is a visible wave of power that emanates from him, where after touching the wires they disconnect. So, no, Lotus didn't do it herself. Warframes can hold the Galatine Prime with one hand by using that hand as a tether, or as the arm of a catapult, or by otherwise supporting it's weight with some other body part. It's not possible to get enough force out of it otherwise, using just the arm as with one-handed wielding. This also suggests the possibility Ballas uses some kind of special power to use the, one that can manipulate the laws of physics. Which, thinking about it, makes more sense all things considered. This would therefore instead imply that Ballas and (since his weapon is apparently typical of Orokin design, other Orokin) is more adept at Physics-manipulating than we are, at least in general. Yet, we still beat them, proving we're stronger overall.

Addendum to 2: In the Divine Comedy, which took directly from Catholic teachings, Purgatory is a place of punishment where sins are painfully purged from the self, often in ways similar to hell. Like one of the levels is just a wall of fire. Unlike hell, these punishments weren't eternal, but still pretty bad. That relates to how enemies can only spend a relatively short time in the rift. Limbo is located in in hell, and is indeed a part of it. It's not part of the seven circles, but it is most definitely hell. It's the hell for those who don't qualify for Heaven directly and didn't die in a state of Grace where they could go to Purgatory and then on to Heaven. So, yeah, Limbo most definitely has connections to hell, so that would imply that his control over the rift resulted in damaging effects.

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On 2018-06-05 at 2:09 AM, Sitchrea said:

The Tenno are infantry. Godlike infantry, yes, but infantry nonetheless.

In a sense, sure. But we're not infantry in the way you're suggesting. We're guerilla fighters. We're the special ops teams who drop in behind enemy lines and take out priority targets. That's part of why we're so dangerous - the enemy cannot see us coming (thanks to Void cloaking, which hasn't been fully explained), cannot see our supply lines (as we have none), cannot find our base of operations (beyond the tenno relays, we really don't have one). We're not a force our enemies can predict.

Also, we do have a sort-of command structure, it's just never really be shown in-game. We have the Lotus at the top for now, but we do have tenno councillers and researchers and similar titles.

The only reason the Tenno haven't completely wiped out the Grineer, Corpus, or even the Infested is because we're a "small" fighting force. I dunno what the game's active player number actually is, but lore-wise the Tenno should be numbering, at most, in the 6-digits. But I bet it's a 4-digit number.
The other factions have millions.

Is Alad V still considered a separate faction from the Corpus or Infested?  He helped us in Second Dream, but was that technically before or after Patient Zero in the timeline?

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6 minutes ago, XxXNob0dyXxX said:

All you'd really need is a corrupted heavy nullifier bombard. That would make the community SUPER happy.

Yea... a Nightmare Tier 4 Void version one with his x8 hidden damage multiplier buff... ¬¬" (sigh)

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Y'all are way off base.  The tenno are completely vulnerable - and in fact CANNOT win. 

We KNOW - with 100% Certainty, as soon as the Tenno and their warframes start dominating ANYTHING, DE brings in the Nerf hammer and changes the rules to "rebalance".

As such, they can never win.

 

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8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Point 1: I wasn't arguing Gara didn't have a limit. I was arguing that the feat was far and away greater than we have displayed in game. Which I'd say I've proved pretty distinctly thus far.

It wouldn't be "far greater" than what we displayed in game. Greater, yes, far greater, entirely up to speculation. For one, we don't even know how the Eidolon fought, or what the Gara Operator used in that battle.

As I said, DE obviously purposely left it vague so it is all up to speculation, and threads like these exist.

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Point 2: Maths is maths. You can't exaggerate with Mathematics. Limbo's life story was given in pure maths (which is the incomprehensible element. Our comprehension of logic, and judging by Ordis's surprise, Orokin comprehension disallows this, yet Limbo did it anyway), which means that if something is in that formula, it happened. Even if we consider Ordis's exaggerations up-scaling it to an army from, a corps or a division, Limbo's potential is still an order of magnitude higher or more, at the very minimum from our current power. If we are exaggerating from a division, which according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica has 7,000 troops as the lower bounds, and considering our Limbo usually gets around two digits of enemies, maybe at most 100-ish, then that's more than ten times higher, which is an order of magnitude.

I will simply repeat. Maths is forever evolving. Just because the Orokin's comprehension of logic disallowed it doesn't mean the Maths is truly incomprehensible. Now, the basis of Maths is in the Axioms, and whoever piloted Limbo was probably completely refuting Axioms and writing new ones, or something similar. Since these Axioms are based on human logic, that is the only thing that could likely be seen as "illogical."

No other mathematics is Illogicial. Just undiscovered. The Orokin were advanced but not omniscient. There are still thinks they do not know.

Also, solving complex equations doesn't make one powerful. Sure, it makes one smart, but if weird equations made one powerful, don't you think Physicists should be flying and shooting lasers out of their mouths?

Also, I don't remember anyone specifying that Limbo traps the enemy in one go. Rift Surge and Banish Spam are not entirely impossibilities.

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Point 3: Perfectly fair. The fear of the unknown is a valid reason for them to be frightened of us. However, we do know that the Tenno had to be in the ballpark of the Orokin, because we have seen numerous references to Tenno injuring or killing Orokin. Generally, we only fear the unknown when that unknown can be a threat to us. If we were significantly weaker, than they wouldn't be afraid of us.

I never said the Orokin were stronger than the Tenno. I was just saying that the Tenno are not that much greater to the Orokin. See my Analogy again:

A sniper isn't stronger than a normal soldier per se. He just has a sniper rifle that outranges you. He can kill you and you don't know where he is. That's the Tenno for you. They just have space magic that is legit and not due to technology.

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Point 4: Devstream 105. The quotes are "You'd need two hands to wield it... for a Warframe" and "Ballas wouldn't need two hands" So, yeah, they specify Warframes, not Operator. Additionally, Warframe teleportation maxes out at a couple of hundred metres, wheras Ballas and Lotus are just entirely gone. It's heavily implied they went for miles, possibly even interplanetary. Although the exact distance is speculative, there wasn't really anything within line of sight for a couple of hundred metres for him to disappear to. We also DO know the wires were done by Ballas, because he gestures and there is a visible wave of power that emanates from him, where after touching the wires they disconnect. So, no, Lotus didn't do it herself. Warframes can hold the Galatine Prime with one hand by using that hand as a tether, or as the arm of a catapult, or by otherwise supporting it's weight with some other body part. It's not possible to get enough force out of it otherwise, using just the arm as with one-handed wielding. This also suggests the possibility Ballas uses some kind of special power to use the, one that can manipulate the laws of physics. Which, thinking about it, makes more sense all things considered. This would therefore instead imply that Ballas and (since his weapon is apparently typical of Orokin design, other Orokin) is more adept at Physics-manipulating than we are, at least in general. Yet, we still beat them, proving we're stronger overall.

The visible waves could simply be him mind hacking the Lotus so she disconnects herself, or even simply a command that can manipulate technology. Yes, Ballas has a power. But we are not actually able to tell what exactly said power is. It may not be Telekinesis.

As for the teleportation, the range can be 100s of KM and it still wouldn't be considered impressive. It is not uncommon actually, in the realm of fictional media that contains powers. We do know the Orokin had access to what was essentially a "warp drive" so nothing weird.

Does't change the fact that there is a contradiction - Galatine Prime's description suggests Ballas cannot even use it, yet his sword is supposedly heavier than the Galatine Prime and he can use it one handed. How many hands the Tenno use is actually not relevant, I just included it because you do get one handed swings in Tempo Royale and proves that yes, Warframes definitely can use the Galatine with certainty.

Also, considering how the Tenno beat the Orokin, by surprising them when they were not exactly aware, doesn't really mean much. You can be a power user. But if another power user just came up behind you and stabbed you, it's still too late since you didn't notice. Doesn't make them stronger. At most you could argue it made them equal.

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Addendum to 2: In the Divine Comedy, which took directly from Catholic teachings, Purgatory is a place of punishment where sins are painfully purged from the self, often in ways similar to hell. Like one of the levels is just a wall of fire. Unlike hell, these punishments weren't eternal, but still pretty bad. That relates to how enemies can only spend a relatively short time in the rift. Limbo is located in in hell, and is indeed a part of it. It's not part of the seven circles, but it is most definitely hell. It's the hell for those who don't qualify for Heaven directly and didn't die in a state of Grace where they could go to Purgatory and then on to Heaven. So, yeah, Limbo most definitely has connections to hell, so that would imply that his control over the rift resulted in damaging effects.

Pretty sure your Galatine Prime or Memestrike Atterax is pretty bad injury and punishment when enemies are under Stasis. And the new change is bringing us the ability to just shoot them as well, turning max range Limbo into a godsend in all game modes.

That is "quite a painful purging" and "pretty dang hellish" if that is what you are looking for. Getting killed and not being able to do anything about it.

Also, getting banished across the rift does do a bit of damage not linked to the power. It's there. We can actually see it. Nothing spectacular.

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On 2018-06-05 at 3:42 AM, Sitchrea said:

D. Then the Tenno, by that statement, are at even more of a disadvantage in open-field combat. Note as well that there are few environments the Tenno actually excel in, and those are all close-quarters and cealed environments. Areas such as the Plains of Eidolon are more difficult for the Tenno to operate in - and in those areas, artillery, gunships, and bombers shred Tenno (Bolkors, Bombards, and Ogmas - and these are just the few limited means represented in-game).

This statement isnt entirely right. Remember, we don't all use the same warframes. I use Oberon, so I can tank squads of enemies without worry. You send in anti infantry stuff like missles, rockets, napalms? maybe even an airstrike? Nah, I tank it and it becomes energy. But its a one-shot! you can say, but I have Phoenix Renewal. Just gotta lay low for 90 seconds if I wanna be careful.

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8 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

It wouldn't be "far greater" than what we displayed in game. Greater, yes, far greater, entirely up to speculation. For one, we don't even know how the Eidolon fought, or what the Gara Operator used in that battle.

As I said, DE obviously purposely left it vague so it is all up to speculation, and threads like these exist.

I will simply repeat. Maths is forever evolving. Just because the Orokin's comprehension of logic disallowed it doesn't mean the Maths is truly incomprehensible. Now, the basis of Maths is in the Axioms, and whoever piloted Limbo was probably completely refuting Axioms and writing new ones, or something similar. Since these Axioms are based on human logic, that is the only thing that could likely be seen as "illogical."

No other mathematics is Illogicial. Just undiscovered. The Orokin were advanced but not omniscient. There are still thinks they do not know.

Also, solving complex equations doesn't make one powerful. Sure, it makes one smart, but if weird equations made one powerful, don't you think Physicists should be flying and shooting lasers out of their mouths?

Also, I don't remember anyone specifying that Limbo traps the enemy in one go. Rift Surge and Banish Spam are not entirely impossibilities.

I never said the Orokin were stronger than the Tenno. I was just saying that the Tenno are not that much greater to the Orokin. See my Analogy again:

A sniper isn't stronger than a normal soldier per se. He just has a sniper rifle that outranges you. He can kill you and you don't know where he is. That's the Tenno for you. They just have space magic that is legit and not due to technology.

The visible waves could simply be him mind hacking the Lotus so she disconnects herself, or even simply a command that can manipulate technology. Yes, Ballas has a power. But we are not actually able to tell what exactly said power is. It may not be Telekinesis.

As for the teleportation, the range can be 100s of KM and it still wouldn't be considered impressive. It is not uncommon actually, in the realm of fictional media that contains powers. We do know the Orokin had access to what was essentially a "warp drive" so nothing weird.

Does't change the fact that there is a contradiction - Galatine Prime's description suggests Ballas cannot even use it, yet his sword is supposedly heavier than the Galatine Prime and he can use it one handed. How many hands the Tenno use is actually not relevant, I just included it because you do get one handed swings in Tempo Royale and proves that yes, Warframes definitely can use the Galatine with certainty.

Also, considering how the Tenno beat the Orokin, by surprising them when they were not exactly aware, doesn't really mean much. You can be a power user. But if another power user just came up behind you and stabbed you, it's still too late since you didn't notice. Doesn't make them stronger. At most you could argue it made them equal.

Pretty sure your Galatine Prime or Memestrike Atterax is pretty bad injury and punishment when enemies are under Stasis. And the new change is bringing us the ability to just shoot them as well, turning max range Limbo into a godsend in all game modes.

That is "quite a painful purging" and "pretty dang hellish" if that is what you are looking for. Getting killed and not being able to do anything about it.

Also, getting banished across the rift does do a bit of damage not linked to the power. It's there. We can actually see it. Nothing spectacular.

Point 1: Have you seen the SIZE of that thing? It is the size of a literal mountain, and was, if we consider that the fragments are exactly that, parts of it's body thus have similar composition, covered in hundreds of thousands of Eidolon guns. Not to mention it had an army of Eidolon fragments. Consider that most Tenno nowadays have problem soloing a single busted up Hydrolyst that mindlessly fires AOE attacks and homing shots, let alone an army of them that all had a collective consciousness enabling them to make precise tactical decisions as well as aim and all being in fully working order not worn down by the wear of thousands of years. Even one Eidolon fragment would be way more of a threat like that, so regardless of how many it deployed against her. Which was almost certainly several, but admittedly probably not it's entire force given the situation of the fight. But just the full sized thing alone is far and away past what we have ever fought, let alone solo. All in all, that feat dwarfs our biggest in-game feats. Again, modern Tenno have issues fighting broken Eidolon fragments.

Point 2: You're getting stuck on the fact it's beyond our present comprehension again. That isn't my main point. At all. My point is that maths is logical, as we have both made clear. Ergo, if Limbo wrote down, in pure, logical, mathematics "I did this" then for the rest of the mathematics would not work if that thing had not occured, because the maths would be wrong, since he wrote X=Y when X=/=Y. Ergo, we know for a FACT that Limbo did throw large number of enemies into the rift at once, and that for that number to be impressive enough for Ordis to misinterpret it with an exaggeration, it must still be several times more than our present abilities, because our present abilities only scrape the level of a squad or two. And even taking a gradual progression into account, we can still compare that directly with our present abilities. Presently we can do that to get about 100ish enemies in. A great deal more than with one cataclysm, but even then, it's still an order of magnitude below what the Original Limbo was doing. An order of magnitude is usually defined in multiples of ten. Since the low end of the estimate is 7000 and all. So even if Limbo was taking them in gradually, it was at a significantly higher rate, with much more range (for him to keep up the rift surge to keep them in) or had a great deal more duration. So, yeah, original Limbo was much more powerful than our present ones.

Point 3 & 4 (since they're more or less bleeding together at this point): Fair enough. We're in agreement for the most part, some nitpicks and missing information aside (like exactly what he did to Lotus). Tenno are, or were in the past, equal to the Orokin. I suggest we put a pin on this since more concrete information of where exactly the Orokin stand power-wise is about to come to light. Although I do have one addition to make: the Codex is also a notably unreliable narrator when it comes to the Orokin. It is reliable for most part with Tenno history, Grineer history and the like, things that are or were easily accessible information. However there are notable holes about the specifics of the Orokin, which indicates that they were very secretive about their actual power. So, most likely, that entry was written by a non-Orokin, possibly a Tenno, who had no idea that the Orokin were also able to lift it with their powers. Thus, since the other groups had presumably failed to use it, and the Orokin either didn't try (being above such 'petty tests') or deceived the testers to maintain secrecy.

Point 2 addendum: That's hardly the hellish nature being a property of the rift itself, which since Ordis immediately mentions how "Physics is wonderful", it would appear to be. If it was him making it hell like via his weapons, it wouldn't be physics doing it. Or, to be specific, it wouldn't be the physics of the rift, which is what Ordis is referring to.

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