Improving Enemy Mechanics

[Paradoxbomb]

Disclaimer: For now, I'm focusing mainly on the Grineer, as they seem to be the faction that irritates the player base the most, and simply seem to have the least synergy and effectiveness as a faction. I may go into the other factions later.

 

TL;DR: In addition to improving enemy AI, the core mechanics of certain Grineer units need buffs/improvements to make them a Middle ground class between standard Lancers and Heavy units. Giant mobs of standard enemies also need to occur less in favor of the occasional smaller mob of stronger, more capable enemies.

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So, DE has stated that they will reworking the armor system in order to keep enemies like the Grineer from becoming massive bullet sponges against anything that isn't armor piercing, which is great since players will be less restricted in how they choose to fight heavily armored enemies. That being said, I believe the next step should be improving the enemies and their mechanics, seeing as they will now be "easier" to kill without the ludicrous damage reduction.

 

This isn't only a call for improved AI, although this is a big part of it and something that should be prioritized. This is also feedback and suggestions on how to improve enemies in terms of their core strengths and mechanics, as well as how enemies spawn and how more variety can be added to the usual mobs that plague every mission. So with that, let us dive into the nature of the Grineer.

 

 

The Glaring Issues, AI and No Mid-Tier:

 

Okay, the most obvious issue with the Grineer, as many have stated before me, is that their AI is unfitting to their nature as space marines, and just not very good in general. The majority of the Grineer seem to be obsessed with hugging cover, which seems kinda redundant since they are heavily armored death troopers. This makes sense for a few types of enemies, but for the standard troops, it makes no sense for them to be so cowardly. More Grineer troops need to be willing to charge your position or stand out from cover, perhaps only running to cover when they realize that they are seriously injured and need to fall back.

 

That's not to say Grineer will never leave cover, oh contraire. They will occasionally leave there hidey holes, to run to new cover, or to control console on the other side of the room, regardless of whether or not your right next to it or not. These guys seriously need to recognize that trying to hide or hit an alarm right next to a player is a very bad idea, and try to keep a distance from the player. Their also a bit TOO alarm happy IMO, but that applies to Corpus Crewman too, so please limit their "make a break for the alarm" range to something smaller than across half the ship.

 

So in a nutshell, Grineer need to be a little braver and be willing to put their heavily armored hides in the line of fire, but not be so stupid as to try and hide RIGHT NEXT TO YOU.

 

Now the other issue with the Grineer, which I intend to focus more on, is the lack of a real "Mid-Tier" of enemies. Basically you have a mob of 20+ standard SMG and shotgun troops every five feet you walk, and every once in a blue moon a somewhat competent Heavy unit, such as Napalms and Bombards. And that's really it. Sure, there are enemies in the Grineer that are SUPPOSED to be the mid-tier between these two enemy types, but let's face it, enemies such as Ballistas, Seekers, Scorpions, and so forth are pitiful to mildly annoying, relying on useless or cheap stun-locking tactics to irritate the player, or just not being good at their role (who's ever actually been shot dead by a Ballista or a Powerfist?)

 

 

Suggested Improvements to Grineer Units:

 

-The Seeker and Ballista: Presently, the Ballistas are among the most pitiful Grineer units, very indecisive of how they'll attack, frail as hell, and surprisingly inaccurate (I stood still once to see how accurate they are, couldn't land a hit from 20 meters or so away). The Seekers are better Snipers than them with there death pistols, but even these guys are useless due to the fact that they only deploy weaksauce latchers and only serve to annoy more than pose a major threat.

 

My suggestion is to ditch the Seeker entirely and give his attributes to the Ballista, very high armor and the ability to deploy latchers, and maybe even auto turrets and rollers at higher levels to distract players while she changes position. Now you actually have a mid-tier unit on your hands rather than a minor irritation, a heavily armored sniper that is resilient and deploys obstacles to keep players from directly charging her position. Other improvements can include improving her accuracy, making her flee if the player get within a certain range, and even making her sniper ignore shields, to compensate for the slow fire rate and make her a more dangerous priority target

 

As for the Seeker, give his model to an entirely new unit, the Grineer Grenadier, the function of which should be quite obvious. Unlike other units, hiding behind cover would actually suit this unit a lot more, and a unit with a grenade launcher, while cliche, has a lot potential to add variety to players' strategies. For example, players can no longer stay in cover safely now that there is a unit launching grenades into their hiding spots, meaning you have to stay on the move. They would also be a priority targets during defense missions, since they could blast grenades around walls and up levels without having to charge the pod. For the sake of nostalgia, he could also retain the ability to deploy latchers and should also be heavily armored.

 

-Standard Lancer vs. Elite Lancer: Although changing all Lancers to elite Lancers is an upgrade of sorts, it doesn't really do much for the Lancers other than make them slightly stronger and less sniper friendly. Instead of just turning all level 20+ Grineers into level 20+ Grineers but with a burst gun, I propose that Grakata Lancers should remain the fodder enemy, and make Elite Lancers much more durable but only occur in small numbers, around 2-3 either alone or escorting a mob of lesser grunts. Elites are stronger, braver and more willing to charge your position, and maybe a little more grenade happy. So players have to choose between taking out the heavier units first, or picking off the fodder Lancers.

 

-Shield Lancers. If you get within 20 meters of these guys, they go Leroy Jenkins on you. It's not a bad strategy, but why is the guy who's supposed to be defensive braver than the rest of the Grineer troops? This guy needs to do his job right and actively stick by and shield his allies, prioritizing heavy Grineers, making them much more difficult targets. They could still charge, but only when you're really close, and they should immediately fall back afterward. They should also occur in groups of 2 or more, and try to set up defensive wall to block the players

 

-Grineer Commanders. There's nothing really Commandy about them, and then there's that infamous switch teleport of his. Commanders need to be more inclined to stay by there troops, and should be able to bark orders to their cowardly troops to organize them into a working threat. Like Grineer regulators, they should be able to buff troops that are next to them and boost their weapon's damage output, putting stress on taking them out quickly.

 

In place of the ever annoying switch teleport, I say give them a pull ability, so they can still force you into the middle of a crowd of enemies without leaving the group himself (this pull should also be easy to notice and dodgable with a roll). Alternatively, give him the ability to deploy multiple decoys to disorient players.

 

-Heavy Units: Make heavy units more frequent, at least late game and during 2-4 player missions. Heavy units can break up the monotony of fighting the same 30+ Lancers every tile, but you rarely see the poor guys (well, except heavy gunners, they're actually quite liberal with those). It'd be nice to see them be more than bullet sponges too, perhaps give them the ability to buff troops with elemental damage (ex. Napalms add fire damage to Lancers' attacks) and add some weaknesses/stages to the fights with them, so that they actually feel like minibosses:

 

---Napalm: Napalm bomb projectile speed is much faster, but the range is limited and the explosion is smaller. New abilities include a flamethrower attack at mid-range and the ground pound is now replaced with a fire stomp (similar to Ember) that can deal DoT and allow nearby soldiers to deal fire damage. The Napalm is extremely resilient to regular attacks but wears a fuel tank on his back. Similar to Lech Kril, blowing up this tank will damage him and anything nearby immensely, but will cause him to go beserk, mindlessly charging your position and using his flamethrower/fire stomp.

 

---Bombard: Change his launcher to a standard Ogris: the projectile no longer homes in but travels much faster and he has an improved fire rate. Like the Hellions, he wears a backpack that, although does not give him the ability to fly, allows him to unleash a salvo of homing rockets that can mean instant death for an unprepared Tenno. He will kneel down and charge his backpack before opening fire, leaving himself exposed. Shooting the backpack will cause it to malfunction and generate an explosion that will temporarily stun the Bombard, allowing you to deal increased damage to him. The backpack will explode after a number to times being overloaded, instantly killing the Bombard and any unluncky nearby units.

 

-Grineer Powerfists and Sawmen: I'm actually calling for a nerf on the Sawmen, at least on Mercury, it seems a bit OP for an enemy that is meant to be fodder to have a shield that effectively makes them more durable than an armored lancer AND effectively protects them from headshots, something early players need to rely on early game due to their low damage output. It's fine for them to have the protection mid to late game when they actually need it, but for level 1 sawmen it feels like overkill.

 

If there's a light unit that DOES deserve a shield, it's the powerfist. Actually, this guy can use just about anything really. I'd say scrap him completely since he's the epitome of failure for the Grineer army, but I think there is still potential for him. For example, in addition to a shield and maybe more health, give him an AoE ground pound similar to the Heavy Units, only this one causes massive damage. This makes him serve as a damage based counterpart to the Shockwave MOA, with a smaller range but extremely damaging. There could even be elemental variants of the powerfist that create different AoE's, such as generating an ice field that damages and slows the player down.

 

-Possible New enemy, Grineer Crutch: A lightly armored Grineer medic that, while weak on his own, tends to stay in the background can deploy a health generator that creates a snow globe-like bubble shield and heals Grineer that stand close to it, and constantly drains the health of any player that enters it's range (bypassing their shield). The player will either have to wait for the shield to drop, charge the generator and risk losing some health, or simply kill the Crutch before it can deploy a generator.

 

Alternatively, Crutches can have the ability to cast blessing and keep nearby units invulnerable, meaning they must be killed before you can damage any other enemy within their AoE.

 

 

Mob Reduction:

 

Now that we Ideas for more efficient enemies, we need to actually see more of them in game. However, the other issue is that a lot of the alternate units seem to be overshadowed by the thick wave's of standard units that insist on showing up every other room on any mission besides exterminate. Mob spawns don't scale well for Solo mode and having to fight the same two units (Lancers and Troopers) over and over makes combat encounters long winded, repetitive, and when you finally do get killed, it's irritating since you weren't bested by a worthy adversary, just the 60th shotgun guy in the room since your shield never had a chance to recharge.

 

I'm not suggesting that these ridiculous-sized mobs should never occur, since there's nothing more badass than clearing a room with an ultimate, but it would be nice if they weren't the only way of raising the stakes in a level, especially during single-player. Instead of giant mobs of 15-20 standard grunts, how about a smaller mob of 5-6 standard grunts escorted by the new and improved Mid-tier/Heavy units I mentioned above. There could even be entire teams of a particular unit, like a squad of snipers, something to put a different twist on every encounter. Not to mention having more small but strong mobs instead of dozens of weak enemies would give Sniper fans more of a purpose in this game.

 

 

"Badass" Enemies:

 

to further improve enemy variety and provide a true challenge for players, I say take a page from Borderlands and give each enemy a random chance to spawn as a "badass" or Elite version of themselves. These Elites would be much stronger than there standard counterparts, and could have stronger variants of their usual weapons and utilize different tactics to surprise players. Even Heavy units can have a badass version of themselves; imagine the joy players will have when encountering a Super Elite Grineer Napalm with dual napalm launchers that function as flamethrowers at close range (dear God...).

 

Elemental Versions of standard units could count as Elite enemies, such as the aforementioned elemental Powerfist, dealing more damage and buffing nearby troop's weapons with elemental damage and making them more resilient. Obviously, more players would increase the chance of these Elite units spawning, and it would give players a larger variety of minibosses since just about anything can be an Elite enemy.

 

 

Endless Defense:

 

Just some suggestions for the ever popular Endless defense mode. I feel like this game mode suffers from the same endless spam syndrome that all other game modes do. While the usual waves of standard units should remain the majority of the game, it would be nice if every few waves, there would be a horde of certain enemies. For example, there could be an all sniper wave where you're ambushed by a small squad of Ballistas, or an Elite wave where there are less enemies, but all of them Super strong Elite variants of the usual enemies. Something to give a little more structure to the waves instead of essentially repeating themselves by sending in a swarm of the same units over and over.

 

Additionally, a boss wave should be thrown into every 5-10 waves of endless defense as well, where a generic version of a boss character (such as the Grineer Electropod from alerts) will show up with a small entourage of troops and attempt to kill off either the players or make a break for the Pod.

 

I assume that the upcoming Survival mode will function by similar mechanics to that of Endless Defense, so perhaps these changes could apply to that gameplay mode as well once it's released.

 

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Okay, I think I've rambled enough for now, I commend you if actually read through that wall of text. Feel free to give feedback on what you think the future should hold for the Grineer and enemies in general, or if I suggested something you do (or don't) agree with. I'm sure stuff like this has been suggested millions of time before, and I'm willing to expand the list with other ideas.

 

Edited August 21, 2013 by Paradoxbomb

[Enguzrad]

I can agree with the AI, Grineer marines should pop up from their cover together and send hail of bullets on players. Right now they are not able to cooperate. The best cooperation they are capable of is spawning together.

It's true that Ballista can barely hit Frost's Snow Globe on 50 meters. They should stay more behind and actually snipe players.
But I kinda like Seekers, although their Latchers are not much threat. On the wiki I learned that they used to deploy Nervos, which can stun player. Maybe give it back to them?

Heavy units should appear more often but I don't know about buffing other units... They've got grenade launchers, they should stay behind like Ballistas and provide fire support.

I pretty much agree with the rest. You can check out this thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/95478-gpturismos-random-ideas/
there are some unit ideas which could be used.

[Manly_McManface]

I really love this idea! Your idea of having more elite troopers lead the fodder into battle reminds me of Halo, where the elites lead the grunts and jackals... and occasionally super intense elites lead the other elites into battle.. +1

[Paradoxbomb]

It's true that Ballista can barely hit Frost's Snow Globe on 50 meters. They should stay more behind and actually snipe players.

But I kinda like Seekers, although their Latchers are not much threat. On the wiki I learned that they used to deploy Nervos, which can stun player. Maybe give it back to them?

 

Seekers are okay, though other than their ridiculously OP pistols, they're not really that threatening, at least as a class that's supposed to keep you out of cover. That's why I think a grenade launcher would suit them better, since they could still use the usual Grineer formula of hiding behind a box but still be threatening. Plus they COULD still deploy rollers, but those could either use a buff as well, or maybe some kind of variants, like green latchers that explode immediately, or even some successor to the nervos that had a very brief stun period.

 

I really love this idea! Your idea of having more elite troopers lead the fodder into battle reminds me of Halo, where the elites lead the grunts and jackals... and occasionally super intense elites lead the other elites into battle.. +1

 

That's one way to look at it :). Having more enemy tiers would hopefully break up the monotony of fighting normal grunt and the occasional heavy troop once or twice a level.

[TheHeraldXII]

Grineer currently use the following tactics.

All units find cover (this is a good thing, if they didn't they'd be even stupider than people keep saying. and move from cover to cover to surround their opponents.

Medium units and Ballistas lay down suppressive while the team moves into position.

Specialist troops, Scorches, Powerfists, Flameblades, Scorpions, try and flush the enemy out of cover into the killzone the medium units set up.

If heavy units get involved, the Grineer attempt to storm the enemy with the heavy taking the lead to draw fire and knock them down once they're in range.

 

So, we have an enemy which sets up killzones, moves from cover to cover, uses suppressive fire to keep you pinned while they get in position and also uses close assault specialists to force you out into the open. I'm not disagreeing that certain Grineer units are annoying (Rollers, Commanders, Scorpions to an extent) and others failtastic (Latchers, Ballistas and the poor outclassed Bombard) but it's not like they don't use unit tactics, flanking, suppression and full on assaults at appropriate times. Mainly I think the issue is it's hard to see an enemy use squad tactics in co-op because the enemy doesn't last long enough to try any of that. Play through Ceres with a Volt, keep note of enemy movements and tactics, it could be enlightening.

[Paradoxbomb]

Grineer currently use the following tactics.

All units find cover (this is a good thing, if they didn't they'd be even stupider than people keep saying. and move from cover to cover to surround their opponents.

Medium units and Ballistas lay down suppressive while the team moves into position.

Specialist troops, Scorches, Powerfists, Flameblades, Scorpions, try and flush the enemy out of cover into the killzone the medium units set up.

If heavy units get involved, the Grineer attempt to storm the enemy with the heavy taking the lead to draw fire and knock them down once they're in range.

 

So, we have an enemy which sets up killzones, moves from cover to cover, uses suppressive fire to keep you pinned while they get in position and also uses close assault specialists to force you out into the open. I'm not disagreeing that certain Grineer units are annoying (Rollers, Commanders, Scorpions to an extent) and others failtastic (Latchers, Ballistas and the poor outclassed Bombard) but it's not like they don't use unit tactics, flanking, suppression and full on assaults at appropriate times. Mainly I think the issue is it's hard to see an enemy use squad tactics in co-op because the enemy doesn't last long enough to try any of that. Play through Ceres with a Volt, keep note of enemy movements and tactics, it could be enlightening.

 

I don't think that the AI is completely deadheaded like some people believe, but it definitely is buggy; half the time enemies can't make up there minds and tend to only charge your position just to get into cover you were standing right next to (they may attack on the way, but they don't seem to be able to do anything beyond run to more cover or to an alarm regardless of where you are).

 

Though I agree that it is hard to see the AI actually work it's magic since everything dies so damn quickly with four players, but even on on solo I feel like more deaths come from just being worn out by having another 5 waves of low level grunts spawn behind you rather than being outmatched by an actually threatening enemy.

 

So they enemies and their AI are passable, but the Grineer could have more to them than just spamming another fifty of them to make them threatening. Corpus already makes effective use of mob tactics, and it makes sense for the Infested, so I don't think we need to have all three factions rely on spawning ridiculous numbers of enemies just to present a challenge.

[Paradoxbomb]

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[TheHeraldXII]

I don't think that the AI is completely deadheaded like some people believe, but it definitely is buggy; half the time enemies can't make up there minds and tend to only charge your position just to get into cover you were standing right next to (they may attack on the way, but they don't seem to be able to do anything beyond run to more cover or to an alarm regardless of where you are).

 

Though I agree that it is hard to see the AI actually work it's magic since everything dies so damn quickly with four players, but even on on solo I feel like more deaths come from just being worn out by having another 5 waves of low level grunts spawn behind you rather than being outmatched by an actually threatening enemy.

 

So they enemies and their AI are passable, but the Grineer could have more to them than just spamming another fifty of them to make them threatening. Corpus already makes effective use of mob tactics, and it makes sense for the Infested, so I don't think we need to have all three factions rely on spawning ridiculous numbers of enemies just to present a challenge.

I agree completely. Really, I just wasnt people to stop posting as if the AI is completely borked because I feel it takes attention away from the actual problems with the AI. Indecisive troops, the guys who get stuck in cover, close range enemies getting confused and running in circles are all problems that need to be addressed and every post that goes "Grineer need to use teamwork" or "Grineer need to use storming tactics" just takes attention away from problems that actually exist.

To restate, I agree with you, the issues you brought up with the AI should be addressed in my opinion. Especially the enemy spawns. It didn't bug me much before, but I think they should have a way to stop enemies spawning in rooms you just cleared for a moderate period of time.

[Paradoxbomb]

I agree completely. Really, I just wasnt people to stop posting as if the AI is completely borked because I feel it takes attention away from the actual problems with the AI. Indecisive troops, the guys who get stuck in cover, close range enemies getting confused and running in circles are all problems that need to be addressed and every post that goes "Grineer need to use teamwork" or "Grineer need to use storming tactics" just takes attention away from problems that actually exist.

To restate, I agree with you, the issues you brought up with the AI should be addressed in my opinion. Especially the enemy spawns. It didn't bug me much before, but I think they should have a way to stop enemies spawning in rooms you just cleared for a moderate period of time.

 

I guess people mention the whole teamwork and storming tactic thing more often because stuff like running in circles or taking cover next to is more obviously a bug and something that shouldn't even need mentioning, whereas the former is just improving what they can do as AI. Needless to say both are equally irritating to deal with during gameplay, so both need to be addressed just as badly as the other.

 

Also I think I forgot to mention enemies spawning behind you in the OP. That needs to stop to. I can understand if it was just two or three enemies flanking you, but sometimes an entire second squadron of guys come from the room you just cleared out literally seconds ago! It also kinda deters exploration IMO, since leaving the main path for more than 5 seconds means you'll have to fight yet another mob once you get back to the objective.

[Paradoxbomb]

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[Paradoxbomb]

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