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Mag is, to put it lightly, a hot mess.


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30 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

Since that Magnetize issue is an obvious bug or oversight I didn't feel like addressing it, but I did add it to the OP. Adjusting the size of Magnetize is a controversial change, which is why I didn't suggest it. It might not need considerable buffs, but the suggestion does improve projectile weapons being unable to hit things inside of the bubble without altering the physics because of the status chance and damage type changes. The only other way it is really affected is allowing Crush and Pull to increase its damage which should really be the case already since it is a drop in the bucket compared to a single Lanka/Tigris Prime shot. I get where you're coming from with Crush affecting Magnetize's detonation, but like I said standing inside of Magnetize bubbles used to be a reliable defense and is now a good way to get yourself killed. I'd honestly prefer Magnetize to just be recastable as a base function, but a lot of Mag players don't want that. I know I wouldn't want the augment to detonate automatically after killing all the enemies inside,  since I may have enough duration remaining on it to detonate it on another group later (Unless that's what the Augment does AND the ability can be detonated manually as a base function).

I don't think the Pull cast paradigm changes affect its defensive use at all. It is virtually instant to mouse vaguely in front of you or at your feet and get the same benefit of current Pull. It having the Magnetic status certainly isn't OP.  Shields are already irrelevant because Toxin damage ignores them, and there're a dozen weapons that can apply that effect just as easily like the Synoid Simulor. It creating Energy Orbs 25% of the time after spending 75 Energy is nothing compared to Trinity or Harrow or Zenurik or Large Energy Restores.

Polarize having a stagger shouldn't slow down defense missions because the only enemies that have no shields or armor are the Infested and some Corrupted units. You'd only trigger the stagger on enemies that you've already removed all the shields and armor off of, which means you've already used the ability and hit with its expansion at least once. Besides, a stagger only slows enemies down by about a half of a second. Polarize affecting base armor is more or less the same thing as affecting a percentage of total armor. The percentage just differs depending upon the enemy type. A Lancer has 100 base armor, and a Corrupted Bombard has 500 base armor. Polarize with 40% Strength would remove all of the armor off of a Lancer, but only remove 20% of a Bombard's armor. Polarize with >=200% Strength would remove all of the armor off of almost everything.

I actually originally had Fracturing Crush changed to a Cold proc, but it was redundant with new Magnetized Discharge and I felt it wasn't as fitting for her thematic as a generic Puncture proc. Both are good, since they add some additional utility and reduce the damage enemies deal.

Bullets being able to proc isn't exactly a suitable solution to enemies not receiving any meaningful damage. The issue is that the edge of the damagesphere provides protection and deals minimal damage. The obvious solution is to reduce the protection area to alleviate this, ensuring that any protected enemies are receiving substantial enough damage from the ability it's self. Alternatively, it could just be a large bubble that mirrors any damage that contacts it to enemies in the sphere without altering projectile paths, but I think DE doesn't want to throw away all the work they put into the eyecandy of the ability.

You can always recast the ability after it detonates, but since that would be the augment, you could just continue to use the ability as normal. The explosion area is actually larger than the bubble area atm, and if we're only talking about enemies not being present in the core(protected area) then it still deals with the surrounding enemies just fine. Want it to also kill another group? Well, it's a 50base energy ability with a base casting speed of around a second. Cast another, pump it full of damage, and watch it burst like a firecracker.

 

You mentioned a 15m radius. Mag's pull currently has a range of 25m base. At rank 0, it has a range of 15m base. Having that kind of range is important, since the largest threats are enemies far away from mag. Having it pull to where you point is fine(I also liked someone's previously suggested idea of having a stronger fling by holding the button down for a half second charge) but the 15m range and 5m pull just isn't really helping mag. This ability needs to stop movement of enemies within a large area in front of mag because she squish.

Magnetic is actually better than people give it credit for. It's one of the worst procs in the game when used against enemies to be sure, but it's not completely useless, and just 100% eliminating corpus shields makes an entire sortie condition completely irrelevant, something Shield Polarize previously did, and it was nerfed into the ground because of it. A: It's OP AF, even if it's only OP AF against a single (most of a) faction, B: I don't think DE wants to make enemy shields even more irrelevant, and C, toxin shouldn't be bypassing shields. It's a nifty but ultimately imbalanced mechanic that, while I love it and abuse the S#&$ out of it, should be removed/replaced/reworked. 

Trinity and Harrow are not Mag, Zenurik and energy restores don't bypass channeling gimpery or synergize with Arcane Energize, and 75% energy base is only 18.75 energy on an efficiency build. There's no good reason to make Mag spawn energy orbs for the party so easily. If anything, enemies killed by Crush should have a additional 1/10(or less) chance to drop an energy orb, to be more in line with Broberon's smite, but even that would probably be abused AF and get nerfed in a day.

Stripping all armour in one go would make armour stripping builds irrelevant, and if it doesn't, suddenly stagger is S#&$e. Never mind mixed factions. Keep it on the augment where it belongs. I believe the shortest stagger is about a second long, actually. And, % of base armour has problems with inconsistent armour stripping that would make the stagger a problem as well, and stripping all armour in one go is OP.

I don't see how puncture is any more thematic than cold, but tbqh, both would be dumb theme wise. What we really need is a rework of magnetic procs to make them make sense to use on enemies that aren't already-squishy corpus.

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4 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

people who use ember as an example of something bad that happened are usually people who don't know how to use her. its almost kind of cute.

Yeah, ember was always bad. Poor ember, she hasn't actually been "good" for years.

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44 minutes ago, Ajwf said:

Man, Mag got an absolute gift from DE with these last changes and people still complain like she's some garbage frame. There's a lot of stuff here that I think is honestly stupid to ask for because Mag doesn't need to be Loki/Octavia powerful, and her design is only getting more powerful in the general warframe meta as a large-scale area wiping/control frame. 

The fact of the matter is Counter Pulse is currently one of the best augments in the game. Having a 4-second full disarm on almost every corpus minus melees, all grineer minus non-shield melees (and no infested...) is really insane. And then there's the fact that the ability, at a good duration, will seriously room-wipe all enemies of their weapons. It's finally worth using on it's own, and that means you get the shards for the magnetize bubbles you already spam. 

Mag already has some of the best weapon synergies in the game, be it with the Supra Vandal, the Zennistar, the Drakgoon, the Zarr, and some of the weird projectile shotguns. These weapons (exception Zennistar, Supra) are basically worthless on their own but with Mag become insane killing machines off her 2, capable of shredding enemies at any level within magnetize. 

And while overshields normally aren't worth it, I don't ever see people complaining sporting 2000 overshields like a damn Harrow blessed with perfect aim. They aren't hard to get, they gave her proper survivability for using her 4, they're actually pretty manageable to gain back.

If anything, I think some of her older augments need some QOL updates. Her Magnetize Discharge disarming enemies at a 50% chance on explosion helps exactly no one. 50% base, and affected by ability strength? I'm sorry, but ability strength is normally the one stat Mag can forgo and not feel bad about losing. You normally want a combination of range (1 pull area, 2 size, 4 area, 3 base size?), duration (2 length of time, 3 area covered, which is the big one) and efficiency. So you're basically at a coin flip for a disarm for each enemy. 200% Strength is not a build I've ever seen on Mag. The only other utility thing strength does for Mag is increase overshields on Crush and tbh that's not needed if you're using crush correctly. You normally gain 200 shields per tick over 3 ticks on most casts. Fracturing Crush is cool for stripping armor but the finishing CC (can't move for like 7 seconds) is useless because those enemies can still fire. I'd prefer a reduced fire rate or something to preventing movement in a game where we're so hyper mobile. 

Like I find it hard to believe people are complaining about Mag herself given the state she was in prior to this rework. She's workable at any level and, with experience, incredibly strong. That's so much more than can be said for half the frames in this game. Lest we get too close to the sun and end up like Ember. Some of these criticisms would be cool to see (% armor strip on 3) but again, we're already close to the sun with how dominate she can be especially off her counter pulse augment. 

I understand that Mag's in a much better state now than she was before--but just because something is good doesn't mean that it is wrong to want it to be great. She can still be improved quite a bit without being top tier or anywhere near overpowered. 🙂

If not exactly the changes in the OP, I think we can all agree on this much:

  • Pull should allow us greater precision in corralling enemies.
  • Pull's Energy Orb generation mechanic shouldn't require her to kill the target.
  • Magnetize's damage should scale better with the damage dealt by Pull/Polarize/Crush and the damage dealt by weapons that lack obvious synergy with the ability.
  • Magnetize needs some sort of QoL changes to make it less difficult to use with projectile weapons.
  • Magnetize should, in some way, have manual detonation.
  • Polarize's armor reduction needs to scale far better than it does.
  • Crush and Fracturing Crush need to be less redundant with Polarize and Counter Pulse since both abilities deal damage, remove armor, restore shields, and CC enemies.
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21 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

Her survivability is laughable. Her synergy is forced and ineffective. Her energy costs are astronomical. Her damage is irrelevant without abusing specific weapon loadouts or massive investments in Ability Strength. Her crowd control is lackluster without her Augments--Counter Pulse almost strictly outclasses Fracturing Crush and Magnetized Discharge in that regard, but at least one of those still ends up being mandatory depending upon what mission you're in. She requires Ability Duration to use two of those Augments but doing so makes Magnetize unwieldy. You're also almost always forced to run Fleeting Expertise unless you somehow manage to make do with Zenurik and Streamline.


Detailed Explanation:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Let's go through a usual bout of modding Mag.

We put on Vitality so that we don't bleed out all over that pretty tile after taking a few Slash procs or fighting Venomous Eximi. Next we throw on Counter Pulse so that we don't die to stray Bombard rockets or get ambushed by a Detron Crewman. We'll throw on Fleeting Expertise so we can actually use our powers and Primed Continuity so we can actually use Polarize. So far, so good, right?

Well, that's where things get frustrating. Overextended seems like a nice fit for Pull, Magnetize, and Crush--but if we do that our Magnetize bubbles are more of a hinderance than anything on small tilesets, and since Blind Rage is out of the question with these energy costs we end up having to run Intensify AND Transient Fortitude if we want to use Magnetize with a weapon other than the Lanka. And this is before we've even talked about armor.

Maybe just Stretch, then? Sadly, the base explosion range on Magnetize is 15m and Crush is 18m, so that isn't enough most of the time. We can add Augur Reach, but now we're down to 2 mod slots. If the mission is against Grineer or Corrupted, we need to run Fracturing Crush to deal with their armor. Crush's cast time is abhorrent, so we run Natural Talent...And then we still don't have any Strength to actually deal with their armor. 

Maybe we take out Augur Reach and slot in Transient Fortitude? Now our Duration on Counter Pulse is barely longer than our reload speed with half of the weapons in the game. Maybe just Intensify? Sure, that seems ok.

And then we go into a Sortie and our powers do no damage because Polarize affects total armor. We can cast Polarize and then Crush two or three times in a row and finish with another Polarize...But now we've spent all of our energy and six seconds doing nothing more than stripping them of their armor.

And then we die, because some Bombard behind us and just outside of Crush's range got out of Counter Pulse. Back to the drawing board.

And all I can think is: Why? Mag has a combo!

In theory, at least. You use Crush to lock them down, Polarize to weaken their defenses, Pull to round them up, and Magnetize to blow them away.

Except that isn't what happens. You have to cast Polarize first so you don't die in Crush's animation. Then you cast Pull to group them up and...they all go flying randomly behind you across the room. (That, or you only hit the Corrupted/Ancient Healer because its aura protects everything around it from Pull's CC.) Then you cast Magnetize and start filling that poor guy full of holes, waiting for the big bang. And then it never comes because you kill everything in the room and then Magnetize dies off with a whimper. You can fix some of these issues with modding, but it's ultimately like trying to patch a major hull breach when you're already on a sinking ship. You constantly find at least one or two major issues that you cannot seem to get rid of.

 

If not exactly the changes below, I think we can all agree on this much:
 

  • Mag's Energy usage needs toned down. [Remember that this is caused, primarily, by her dependence upon Polarize and Fracturing Crush to deal with enemy scaling.]
  • Pull should allow us greater precision in corralling enemies.
  • Pull's Energy Orb generation mechanic shouldn't require her to kill the target.
  • Magnetize's damage should scale better with the damage dealt by Pull/Polarize/Crush and the damage dealt by weapons that lack obvious synergy with the ability.
  • Magnetize needs some sort of QoL changes to make it less difficult to use with projectile weapons.
  • Magnetize should, in some way, have manual detonation.
  • Polarize's armor reduction needs to scale far better than it does.
  • Crush and Fracturing Crush need to be less redundant with Polarize and Counter Pulse since both abilities deal damage, remove armor, restore shields, and CC enemies.


My Suggestions:

Pull: No longer pulls enemies wildly towards Mag. Instead, Mag pulls all enemies within 15m (affected by Ability Range) of the point her reticle is aiming at a distance of 5m (affected by Ability Strength) towards said point. This works like Hydroid's Tempest Barrage and has infinite cast range. Damage reduced to 100 (affected by Ability Strength). Damage multiplier on Magnetized targets changed to 4x (affected by Ability Strength) and this damage is now absorbed by Magnetize. The first time Pull is used on an enemy affected by Magnetize there is a 25% chance (affected by Ability Strength) to spawn an Energy Orb. Pull now has a 100% chance to apply the Magnetic Status.

  • Augment - Greedy Pull: Unchanged

Magnetize: The damage dealt by Magnetize's damage over time effect is now based upon the greatest absorbed damage type. Magnetize's damage over time now has a 20% Status Chance (affected by Ability Strength). Magnetize now properly absorbs the damage dealt from all weapons. Magnetize no longer has bizarre targeting interactions with hitscan weapons.

  • Augment - Magnetized Discharge: No longer has a chance to disarm enemies. Instead, enemies are slowed by 60% (affected by Ability Strength, cannot exceed 80%) for 6 seconds (affected by Ability Duration). Magnetize can still be manually detonated with this augment.

Polarize: Polarize now briefly staggers enemies that have neither armor nor shields. Polarize's damage changed to 250 (affected by Ability Strength) and Polarize's shield restore is changed to 500 (affected by Ability Strength). Polarize's armor reduction now applies to base armor as opposed to total armor. The shards created by Polarize now add 100 (affected by Ability Strength) damage to Magnetize.

  • Augment - Counter Pulse: Unchanged

Crush: Crush now causes all instances of Magnetize within range to detonate, and its damage is absorbed by Magnetize.

  • Augment - Fracturing Crush: No longer reduces enemy armor. Instead, all enemies are affected by the Puncture Status and cannot move for 8 seconds (affected by Ability Duration).

 

Why?


This satisfies every bullet point listed above. In addition: Mag has substantially greater flexibility in her modding as her base abilities are improved and her Augments diversified, her survivability has improved, and her crowd control options are more differentiated. A large amount of Ability Duration no longer hinders your ability to detonate Magnetize and/or no longer mandates an Augment. Ability Strength is now more beneficial to Mag, but is still not required. Ability Efficiency is improved as a  Mag no longer has to cast Crush and Polarize multiple times in a row for Magnetize to scale against armored enemies. Ability Range is just as powerful as it is now, but Mag players running low Range should enjoy still being able to use Pull to round up far away foes. Melee Mag players should enjoy using Condition Overload with the Puncture procs from Fracturing Crush and the Magnetic proc from Pull.

 

So, you're saying you've spent more time making this post than actually playing the Frame.  

'Cause that's how its comin across.

4 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

@MagPrime I SUMMON THEE!

Though I am surprised you weren't already here.

As for the OP, I agree that much of the synergy is forced, and that there can be difficulty in modding her, the only change I think is really needed is your change to Pull. As it stands now, Pull is just a ragdoll with a vague force vector that isn't useful for anything but emergency CC (and limited in that). The only other change I can think of is to increase the pull strength of Magnetize, so that enemies can't animation-lock their way out of it.

 

Day job, joys of.

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52 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

worst opinion ive seen today.

It's not an opinion, sadly. Exmimus DR exceeding 100% makes speccing into heat unreliable for long-game missions, which is the only time her damage multiplication would turn out useful. Her direct damage abilities, even with accelerant's multiplication, don't scale because they can't hit multiple targets.

I get that she was an easy "set it and forget it" frame with some nice damage buffs on paper, but Ember hasn't been good for years. Everything she does, other frames do better. Not even for a moment was she actually at the top of anything practical. Except maybe first-set hemocyte, due to bugged interaction between area tick damage and the boss.

Edited by NezuHimeSama
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49 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

I understand that Mag's in a much better state now than she was before--but just because something is good doesn't mean that it is wrong to want it to be great. She can still be improved quite a bit without being top tier or anywhere near overpowered. 🙂

If not exactly the changes in the OP, I think we can all agree on this much:

  • Pull should allow us greater precision in corralling enemies.
  • Pull's Energy Orb generation mechanic shouldn't require her to kill the target.
  • Magnetize's damage should scale better with the damage dealt by Pull/Polarize/Crush and the damage dealt by weapons that lack obvious synergy with the ability.
  • Magnetize needs some sort of QoL changes to make it less difficult to use with projectile weapons.
  • Magnetize should, in some way, have manual detonation.
  • Polarize's armor reduction needs to scale far better than it does.
  • Crush and Fracturing Crush need to be less redundant with Polarize and Counter Pulse since both abilities deal damage, remove armor, restore shields, and CC enemies.

If you don't double augment, there's really no issue from the counter pulse / fracture combination. On non-counterpulse builds, her 3 is basically a shield replenish item with better efficiency for Mag than Quick Thinking. To be clear, I think Fracturing Crush only has usefulness with armor shred as the CC is beyond useless against any gun wielders but hey. 

 

The one thing I keep seeing in your posts is your want to change Mag's energy gain, which implies that you constantly feel you're out of energy. Unless I'm affected by a Leech Eximius, I rarely if ever notice energy issues for Mag. There are two suggestions I have for you: First, use Supra Vandal if you have it with Entropy Burst. I have a build specifically for that weapon that runs Streamline, Flow and never runs out of energy. Because of how much energy you have, there's rarely a reason to not go into quick thinking as a way to cut off toxic procs. In a build like this, you have no much energy you can afford it easily. 

But for non-Supra Vandal builds, go Equilibrium. I really feel that Equilibrium on Mag is a godsend and is basically a mandatory stand-in for all Mag's not running the Supra. On these builds, I run two defensive mods: Redirection and Equilibrium. That's it, and I rarely if ever notice an issue with being squishy at any level of play. In this build, I'll even purposefully take a toxic proc if around excess health orbs to gain energy or purposefully cast abilities to gain health. I've never seen myself need 3 defensive mods on Mag, unless you consider Constitution a defensive mod (For duration). Like the fact that you're so worried about that energy gain is just why I think a lot of people will believe this to come from someone who hasn't played Mag much. Especially when you're saying we use fracturing crush to deal with enemy scaling.... 

Also you will never have a good reason to run Fleeting Expertise. You cannot give me a justification that I'll accept for a 60% cut of your ability duration on Mag. There's no good reason. 

Edited by Ajwf
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17 minutes ago, Ajwf said:

 

If you don't double augment, there's really no issue from the counter pulse / fracture combination. On non-counterpulse builds, her 3 is basically a shield replenish item with better efficiency for Mag than Quick Thinking. To be clear, I think Fracturing Crush only has usefulness with armor shred as the CC is beyond useless against any gun wielders but hey. 

 

The one thing I keep seeing in your posts is your want to change Mag's energy gain, which implies that you constantly feel you're out of energy. Unless I'm affected by a Leech Eximius, I rarely if ever notice energy issues for Mag. There are two suggestions I have for you: First, use Supra Vandal if you have it with Entropy Burst. I have a build specifically for that weapon that runs Streamline, Flow and never runs out of energy. Because of how much energy you have, there's rarely a reason to not go into quick thinking as a way to cut off toxic procs. In a build like this, you have no much energy you can afford it easily. 

But for non-Supra Vandal builds, go Equilibrium. I really feel that Equilibrium on Mag is a godsend and is basically a mandatory stand-in for all Mag's not running the Supra. On these builds, I run two defensive mods: Redirection and Equilibrium. That's it, and I rarely if ever notice an issue with being squishy at any level of play. In this build, I'll even purposefully take a toxic proc if around excess health orbs to gain energy or purposefully cast abilities to gain health. I've never seen myself need 3 defensive mods on Mag, unless you consider Constitution a defensive mod (For duration). Like the fact that you're so worried about that energy gain is just why I think a lot of people will believe this to come from someone who hasn't played Mag much. Especially when you're saying we use fracturing crush to deal with enemy scaling.... 

Also you will never have a good reason to run Fleeting Expertise. You cannot give me a justification that I'll accept for a 60% cut of your ability duration on Mag. There's no good reason. 

Just wanted to jump in here reaaaal quick.  I love using fracturing crush with a slova.  It's a combo I don't ever see get enough attention.  It's arguably my most favorite warframe interaction.

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23 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

pretty much. the only thing mag needs really is a better passive.

Ha, I love Mags passive. So much so that I suggested in the past it just be default on all frames. This would solve the battle of the vacuum that has been raging forever, this would even let Titania be able to vacuum item while in razorwing. If they made that change then she would need a new passive. In the mean time though Mag is the only one that can use a Kavat/Kubrow and still pick up items with ease. 

And just wanna says to OP Mag is love, Mag is life. There was never a point where I didn't think Mag was one of the best frames in the game, her new kit only solidified this feeling.

The only thing that I would ever want is if when Magnetize was up, if Pull is cast, it casts from the center of the Magnetize bubbles with a 360 degree 10M range not affected by range mods. This is the only thing that Mag "needs" and this is really just a dream of mine, not actually needed.

Edited by DeliciousDoob69
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On the survivability point, wow! She's just as durable (slightly more durable actually) than every other caster!

I actually use negative or neutral strength and still come out getting the most kills in Kuva a lot of the time with my Mag.

Forced synergy? Not really. Not at all actually. Just go for chokepoints on the map and lock them down.

What MP said, sounds like you've barely touched the Frame and went on a rant because you don't like her.

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On 2018-06-06 at 2:45 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

Bullets being able to proc isn't exactly a suitable solution to enemies not receiving any meaningful damage. The issue is that the edge of the damagesphere provides protection and deals minimal damage. The obvious solution is to reduce the protection area to alleviate this, ensuring that any protected enemies are receiving substantial enough damage from the ability it's self. Alternatively, it could just be a large bubble that mirrors any damage that contacts it to enemies in the sphere without altering projectile paths, but I think DE doesn't want to throw away all the work they put into the eyecandy of the ability.

You can always recast the ability after it detonates, but since that would be the augment, you could just continue to use the ability as normal. The explosion area is actually larger than the bubble area atm, and if we're only talking about enemies not being present in the core(protected area) then it still deals with the surrounding enemies just fine. Want it to also kill another group? Well, it's a 50base energy ability with a base casting speed of around a second. Cast another, pump it full of damage, and watch it burst like a firecracker.

 

You mentioned a 15m radius. Mag's pull currently has a range of 25m base. At rank 0, it has a range of 15m base. Having that kind of range is important, since the largest threats are enemies far away from mag. Having it pull to where you point is fine(I also liked someone's previously suggested idea of having a stronger fling by holding the button down for a half second charge) but the 15m range and 5m pull just isn't really helping mag. This ability needs to stop movement of enemies within a large area in front of mag because she squish.

Magnetic is actually better than people give it credit for. It's one of the worst procs in the game when used against enemies to be sure, but it's not completely useless, and just 100% eliminating corpus shields makes an entire sortie condition completely irrelevant, something Shield Polarize previously did, and it was nerfed into the ground because of it. A: It's OP AF, even if it's only OP AF against a single (most of a) faction, B: I don't think DE wants to make enemy shields even more irrelevant, and C, toxin shouldn't be bypassing shields. It's a nifty but ultimately imbalanced mechanic that, while I love it and abuse the S#&$ out of it, should be removed/replaced/reworked. 

Trinity and Harrow are not Mag, Zenurik and energy restores don't bypass channeling gimpery or synergize with Arcane Energize, and 75% energy base is only 18.75 energy on an efficiency build. There's no good reason to make Mag spawn energy orbs for the party so easily. If anything, enemies killed by Crush should have a additional 1/10(or less) chance to drop an energy orb, to be more in line with Broberon's smite, but even that would probably be abused AF and get nerfed in a day.

Stripping all armour in one go would make armour stripping builds irrelevant, and if it doesn't, suddenly stagger is S#&$e. Never mind mixed factions. Keep it on the augment where it belongs. I believe the shortest stagger is about a second long, actually. And, % of base armour has problems with inconsistent armour stripping that would make the stagger a problem as well, and stripping all armour in one go is OP.

I don't see how puncture is any more thematic than cold, but tbqh, both would be dumb theme wise. What we really need is a rework of magnetic procs to make them make sense to use on enemies that aren't already-squishy corpus.

Right, so I should probably explain what I mean by 'properly absorbs damage from all weapons'.

From what I can tell Magnetize currently only tracks damage instances that actually hit an enemy within it. Shooting the sphere with no enemies inside does not add damage. Shooting at the sphere whilst enemies are inside it, but not in the center, will not add damage unless they collide with a shot left trapped in the field. If a single shot manages to strike enemies multiple times it will add damage to Magnetize multiple times. If an enemy is attacked with a weapon which has multishot and the target dies to the first pellet, then subsequent pellets will not add damage as the target died before they hit.

All of this together means that the properties of Mag's weapons and the health of Mag's target affect the damage dealt by Magnetize in an absurd manner.

Two weapons which have the same DPS and time to kill can add dramatically different values to Magnetize. This is particularly significant when you compare high rate of fire but low damage weaponry, such assault rifles, and high damage but low rate of fire weapons such as snipers. They may both kill a target in a single shot, but only the sniper will contribute significantly to the damage absorbed by Magnetize. Status weapons are affected by this even more, as not only are they typically high rate of fire but low damage weapons, they also tend to rely upon the Corrosive status which does not actually deal damage.

I want to fix this.

Ideally by making it so that Magnetize tracks the damage type and damage dealt to the sphere itself, rather than the raw damage dealt to enemies inside of the sphere. This would still allow projectile weapons to damage enemies multiple times. It would not, however, allow a single Lanka shot to increase Magnetize's damage for every time it hits an enemy. This is not a nerf, though it may seem like it at first glance, because the damage type dealt by Magnetize's damage over time will be able to ignore 75% of a target's alloy armor with Radiation damage or 75% of a target's ferrite armor with Corrosive damage, on top of the expected 1.75x damage increase in both cases.

I'll be adding this to the OP.

In addition, I have added an explanation for why I 'reduced' the radius to 15m to the OP. I also buffed the pull distance--it was so low was due to me being unable to properly account for things like momentum and the specifics of Warframe's physics engine. The intention was always to have it pull targets somewhere around 3/4 of the way to the targeted point. That should be more clear now.

 

As far as the Magnetic status goes:

A level 1 Detron Crewman has 150 shields and 60 health. A ratio of 2.5 shields : 1 health.

A level 100 Detron Crewman has 11,176 shields and 8880 health. A ratio of 1.25 shields: 1 health.

It stays at that ratio after that, I believe. At any rate, this actually makes the Magnetic status worse at higher levels than you might think! Toxin damage has ignored shields for more than five years, and I don't think that will ever change. Furthermore, Polarize was not nerfed because it removed enemies' entire shields. It was nerfed because, in addition to doing that, it also did that much damage in a massive area around it for each target hit. It allowed you to, more or less, instantly kill all Corpus or Corrupted enemies of any level in a massive area.


I don't think it's a problem for Mag to have access to some energy restoration. The probability of Mag generating an Energy Orb in 4 casts is only 68.4%. There's still a 31.6% chance she spawns no Energy Orbs after spending 300 Energy. Even if you increase her Strength to 200% and have 175% Efficiency, she still has a 25% chance to drop zero Energy Orbs in 2 casts. The only time this is actually a net gain of Energy for Mag is if you're running one or multiple Arcane Energize(s) and a very specific build designed to generate said orbs. Sure, it works through channeled abilities, but there are other frames such as Atlas, Hydroid, Ivara, and Nekros that can increase the chance that enemies drop Energy Orbs in a much more effective manner. This is an extremely minor thing. Oberon's Reckoning generating Health Orbs upon killing an enemy is an entirely pointless feature, outside of the lowest level missions where Health and Energy management is not a concern. It's highly unlikely that Reckoning will deal the killing blow, and even if it does, it is only a 50% chance.

On 2018-06-07 at 7:34 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

On the survivability point, wow! She's just as durable (slightly more durable actually) than every other caster!

I actually use negative or neutral strength and still come out getting the most kills in Kuva a lot of the time with my Mag.

Forced synergy? Not really. Not at all actually. Just go for chokepoints on the map and lock them down.

What MP said, sounds like you've barely touched the Frame and went on a rant because you don't like her.

It isn't a Mag only problem, but I never said it was exclusive to her, either. All frames should be able to take a hit or two in high level missions without being killed. We shouldn't need to permanently stun enemies to survive.

 

On 2018-06-06 at 3:42 PM, Ajwf said:

 

I a good reason to run Fleeting Expertise. You cannot give me a justification that I'll accept for a 60% cut of your ability duration on Mag. There's no good reason. 

I personally don't like having to run Magnetized Discharge and Streamline, so I find the negative duration helpful for Magnetize in many mission types. Pull and Crush are unaffected, and Polarize still has a massive range with relatively little duration. It depends upon the situation, really.

Edited by YagoXiten
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i use max range and efficiency on my mag build.. the bubbles get up to DOTs of 5k with just a second of firing Mara Detron or Lanka or Supra Vandal, then explodes for 100k+ in a huge area when it eventually expires.. the bubble is big enough you can stand in it to immunize yourself to damage, the energy costs overall are low enough you can use crush to stun enemies that are hitting you long enough to cast Magnatize while also giving you tons of over shields. I can use this in extremely high content because i can almost totally remove any ability of enemies to hit me, so i dont even bother with defense mods. i often sit in the bubble and spam pull after all the mobs inside it initally are dead.

this is one of 3 builds i have.

i also have a Anti boss build that is more duration and Power Str, again focusing on Magnatize. the Damage bonus is huge and i can one shot the Raptor in Sorites. this one has Redirection and Vitality.

the last build is a higher power, Medium range (no overextended) build that focuses on Using crush and Polarize as a Nuke Combo... basically this is a Hydron Spam style build.

 

i have noticed that you dont really need much duration to make her effective... in fact faster Magnatize bubbles allow for quick creation of Bubble nuking. ideally you want around 90% or so because Polarize is then at least as big as Crush and Magnatize lasts long enough to really killing anything in its borders. building for max duration on her is utterly pointless.

 

People think she has only recently gotten good, but even before her last update i was loving my newly obtained Mag Prime and had been loving my non Potatoed Hydron build with normal Mag...

 

 

In short... she is one of the LEAST in need of any kind of rework... in fact she is kind of OP when used right.

ok look my point is not that i wouldnt love some more buffs to mag, honestly i have my own ideas.. but i think she is one of the most awesome frames in this game when played right and would rather see that attention focused on Wukong or Vauban, or another frame that cannot at all get to that point... Even Atlas has a really good build that can be used to fly around nuking the map while invulnerable, healing and buffing his armor in the process..

Edited by (PS4)ForNoPurpose
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Look at the end of the day I guess for your gameplay Mag isn't cutting the mustard. That's totally cool and for many others including myself I find Mag to be pretty good. And I also like to fail at times. You know die and get nothing, a bit like Coin ops with no continue, it makes you think a bit more about approach to a situ and how to take them out or to accept you need to slow down to cut them apart... or Die. My only real wish I guess would be Interaction between Frames and their abilities, much like mods and elements. EG: Hyrdoid Makes a puddle and Volt makes it an electric puddle, where as Inaros may turn it into Quicksand. Or: Necros makes some shadows and Mag pulls them together into a larger single shadow that goes nuts going for everyone, even frames.. a bit like Frankenstein... just dreaming.. and off topic sorry. But um.. yeah, play better and mag is ok.. take care.  

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My only problem with Mag is how the limited range of weapons that work with Magnetize aren't actually working as intended. Weapons that should be shredding enemies to pieces are hitting only once and the rest of the potential damage is completely wasted.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

i use max range and efficiency on my mag build.. the bubbles get up to DOTs of 5k with just a second of firing Mara Detron or Lanka or Supra Vandal, then explodes for 100k+ in a huge area when it eventually expires.. the bubble is big enough you can stand in it to immunize yourself to damage, the energy costs overall are low enough you can use crush to stun enemies that are hitting you long enough to cast Magnatize while also giving you tons of over shields. I can use this in extremely high content because i can almost totally remove any ability of enemies to hit me, so i dont even bother with defense mods. i often sit in the bubble and spam pull after all the mobs inside it initally are dead.

this is one of 3 builds i have.

i also have a Anti boss build that is more duration and Power Str, again focusing on Magnatize. the Damage bonus is huge and i can one shot the Raptor in Sorites. this one has Redirection and Vitality.

the last build is a higher power, Medium range (no overextended) build that focuses on Using crush and Polarize as a Nuke Combo... basically this is a Hydron Spam style build.

 

i have noticed that you dont really need much duration to make her effective... in fact faster Magnatize bubbles allow for quick creation of Bubble nuking. ideally you want around 90% or so because Polarize is then at least as big as Crush and Magnatize lasts long enough to really killing anything in its borders. building for max duration on her is utterly pointless.

 

People think she has only recently gotten good, but even before her last update i was loving my newly obtained Mag Prime and had been loving my non Potatoed Hydron build with normal Mag...

 

 

In short... she is one of the LEAST in need of any kind of rework... in fact she is kind of OP when used right.

ok look my point is not that i wouldnt love some more buffs to mag, honestly i have my own ideas.. but i think she is one of the most awesome frames in this game when played right and would rather see that attention focused on Wukong or Vauban, or another frame that cannot at all get to that point... Even Atlas has a really good build that can be used to fly around nuking the map while invulnerable, healing and buffing his armor in the process..

 

1 hour ago, Anthraxicus said:

My only problem with Mag is how the limited range of weapons that work with Magnetize aren't actually working as intended. Weapons that should be shredding enemies to pieces are hitting only once and the rest of the potential damage is completely wasted.


Magnetize is currently an incredibly complicated ability. Because whilst the absorption works, more or less, like I edited into the OP, it also builds adds damage to the explosion based upon how long enemies sit in it and how many enemies do so. This is part of the reason that the high range and high duration build is so popular, and why people are telling me that she scales fine. Yes, she's reaching millions of damage because you either A. Use a meta weapon which charges it to absurd numbers very quickly or B. Gather a dozen enemies and have them sit in the bubble for days which charges it to absurd numbers. It's not that I'm not aware of this. It's that I'd like some consistency and reward for using other weapons and for moving through missions at a faster pace.

It's counter-intuitive that she forces you to sit and baby sit each Magnetize bubble when Warframe is such a fast paced game. From the ability's description, etc., it seems like it should work similar to Nyx's Absorb or Equinox's Maim. Do a bunch of damage to a few enemies really quick, then blow it up to kill everything else and move on. But that is not what it does. Instead, it reaches astronomically high values if you sit there...not killing things? There's nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want to do. I don't seek to change that. It's fun sometimes. But I think there's a lot to be gained from having the ability charge without being forced to not kill enemies or use a meta weapon. There are plenty of Warframes that can gather, debuff, and nuke enemies easier and with less prep time. She's forced to be a one trick pony reliant upon specific weapons.

I'm also all to aware of the fact that Mag's Magnetize has changed its physics and damage calculations under the hood at least a handful of times now. I'd really like her to be tweaked so that her damage can remain consistent and predictable from here on out instead of this mess which is prone to breaking something every other patch.

Edited by YagoXiten
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13 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

 


Magnetize is currently an incredibly complicated ability. Because whilst the absorption works, more or less, like I edited into the OP, it also builds adds damage to the explosion based upon how long enemies sit in it and how many enemies do so. This is part of the reason that the high range and high duration build is so popular, and why people are telling me that she scales fine. Yes, she's reaching millions of damage because you either A. Use a meta weapon which charges it to absurd numbers very quickly or B. Gather a dozen enemies and have them sit in the bubble for days which charges it to absurd numbers. It's not that I'm not aware of this. It's that I'd like some consistency and reward for using other weapons and for moving through missions at a faster pace.

It's counter-intuitive that she forces you to sit and baby sit each Magnetize bubble when Warframe is such a fast paced game. From the ability's description, etc., it seems like it should work similar to Nyx's Absorb or Equinox's Maim. Do a bunch of damage to a few enemies really quick, then blow it up to kill everything else and move on. But that is not what it does. Instead, it reaches astronomically high values if you sit there...not killing things? There's nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want to do. I don't seek to change that. It's fun sometimes. But I think there's a lot to be gained from having the ability charge without being forced to not kill enemies or use a meta weapon. There are plenty of Warframes that can gather, debuff, and nuke enemies easier and with less prep time. She's forced to be a one trick pony reliant upon specific weapons.

I'm also all to aware of the fact that Mag's Magnetize has changed its physics and damage calculations under the hood at least a handful of times now. I'd really like her to be tweaked so that her damage can remain consistent and predictable from here on out instead of this mess which is prone to breaking something every other patch.

That is not exactly what I am talking about. I am talking about this

 

Many weapons are not working correctly with Magnetize. So all the damage you think mag should be doing is not actually being done in the first place.

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I literally just pointed out that 90% total duration (in otherwords fleeting expertise and primed continuity) is more than enough to make the dot lethal, and the explosion overkill.. 

A single level 60 target can make my bubbles do 2k to 5k dps and 50 to 100k on explosion. Higher levels scale even higher even faster.

 

Dont sit a single bubble, move from bubble to bubble noob.. and get a better weapon... dont use hitscan weapons, use projectile weapons with punchthrough added to them.

 

Oh and btw with my build if i maxed out primed contuinity it would be 95% duration.

Edited by (PS4)ForNoPurpose
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I think pull should have a hold and release mechanic. Where on hold, you pull enemies toward you and keep them suspended as long as you're holding down the ability button. On release, pull violently sends them flying away from you in the direction of your cursor.

Other than that, I really like the rest of your changes.

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Mag is extremely durable. It's probably among the most durable warframes! You can get as much overshield as you'd like, as long as you're not constantly taking 2k hits standing still you'll be fine. I've never ever ran into energy issues with Mag either. Maybe my build is exceptional, or maybe fleeting expertise is doing its job.

Magnetize doesn't need to scale, that would set a bad precedent. Mag's effective dps is scaling though, with enemy armor and shields. That's the trick. You can completely remove any armor from any high level grineer, and this is huge. The only thing I kind of agree with is that magnetize is a bit messy and it should be less penalizing to use on groups, but that's about it.

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22 minutes ago, sixmille said:

Mag is extremely durable. It's probably among the most durable warframes! You can get as much overshield as you'd like, as long as you're not constantly taking 2k hits standing still you'll be fine. I've never ever ran into energy issues with Mag either. Maybe my build is exceptional, or maybe fleeting expertise is doing its job.

Magnetize doesn't need to scale, that would set a bad precedent. Mag's effective dps is scaling though, with enemy armor and shields. That's the trick. You can completely remove any armor from any high level grineer, and this is huge. The only thing I kind of agree with is that magnetize is a bit messy and it should be less penalizing to use on groups, but that's about it.

There are 35 Warframes. 20 of them are objectively more durable than Mag: Atlas, Chroma, Equinox, Frost, Gara, Harrow, Hydroid, Inaros, Khora, Mesa, Nekros, Nezha, Nidus, Oberon, Rhino, Saryn, Trinity, Valkyr, Wukong, and Zephyr. Of those who are not obviously above Mag: Ash, Ivara, Loki, and Octavia have reliable invisibility. Limbo has the Rift. This leaves Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Mirage, Nova, Nyx, Titania, Vauban, and Volt. Whilst there is some room for debate I would place Mag above only Banshee, Ember, Mirage, Titania, and Vauban. Regardless of her exact position, she is somewhere in the bottom third.

A level 100 Heavy Gunner has 7332 armor. Mag with 100% Ability Strength requires 19 casts of Polarize to remove their armor. If Mag also has Corrosive Projection, she will have to cast Polarize 13 times to remove their armor. If Mag also has Fracturing Crush, she will have to cast Crush 4 times and Polarize once to completely remove their armor. Mag with 200% Ability Strength requires 10 casts of Polarize to remove their armor. If Mag also has Corrosive Projection, she will have to cast Polarize 7 times to remove their armor. If Mag also has Fracturing Crush, she will have to cast Crush once and Polarize 2 times to remove their armor.

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Mag can dish out insane damage with the right setup, has effective overshields. She's totally viable for high-level stuff. 

I'm not against buffs, but if you think she's ineffective at high level stuff, you are playing her wrong.

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14 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Mag can dish out insane damage with the right setup, has effective overshields. She's totally viable for high-level stuff. 

I'm not against buffs, but if you think she's ineffective at high level stuff, you are playing her wrong.

Overshields are pretty mediocre.

She's ineffective at higher levels without equipping specific weapons. Wanting to use something other than a Lanka doesn't mean I'm playing her wrong.

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