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[DE]Danielle

Dev Workshop: Virtual Cursor Action Plan

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Trying to make sure DE sees the concerns I posted in another, longer thread:

 

In general, EVERYTHING in menus and selection screens takes longer and is made harder to achieve by this update.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone on DE staff who actually uses a Controller to play WF regularly would think that these changes are an improvement.

 

I admit, when I first heard about the proposed changes, they did sound good/useful. But in practice/actuality... not so much.

I am extremely disappointed.

 

_______________________________________________________________________

 

Apologies if any of these have already been pointed out (but better safe than sorry):

 

a) Back in Orbitor at End of Mission: Cannot quickly "Leave Squad" using the cursor. Need d-pad use for this.

b) Reward Selection for Fissure Missions: Cannot quickly select reward using the cursor. Need d-pad use for this(!).

c) Arsenal Previews:  Can no longer see what a helmet will look like on the Warframe (just shows the helmet itself).

d) Arsenal Previews: Can no longer immediately see the next item selected (am forced to click on each one, rather than it automatically showing itself when its selection box is highlighted).

e) Arsenal Warframe/Weapon selection: Am forced to click on each one, rather than automatically seeing a frame/weapon when its selection box is highlighted.

 

I think that's it at the moment.

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Love Warframe, coming up on Day 700.

DE, I think you are COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT: 
----->  The Virtual Cursor is a FLAT OUT BAD IDEA.

Consider:
1) The point of a Cursor is to allow 360 degree movement on the X & Y planes.
----->  That is great for the Star Map where everything is sort of randomly placed in 360 degree vectors from the "center."  On the Star Map there is NO LINEARITY.

2) MENUS on the other hand, in General DO NOT REQUIRE 360 degree movement - they are ALWAYS either simply horizontal or vertical scrolled.
----->  This is THE BIG FAIL of using a Cursor in Linear Menus.

3) When a MENU SCREEN pops up (e.g. when it is selected via Options or in Chat windows), the Top / 1st item is usually PRE-SELECTED, thus eliminating the need to "go find the item and move the cursor around to get to it"
----->  Thereafter you simply toggle to go Up / Down or Left / Right with RAPID BUTTON CLICKS instead of having to manipulate the quirky cursor to get to your desired item.
----->  The horrible cursor often ends up with its starting point ON A RANDOM PLACE ON THE SCREEN, and NOT in the Menus to start.

4) Having to manipulate the cursor to get to items on a Linear Menu TAKES MUCH LONGER. 
----->  This is NOT an improvement - it is BACKWARDS in terms of efficiency of movement, and speed of choice selection.
----->  Simply clicking Up / Down or Left / Right using a button or the joystick is MUCH MUCH MUCH FASTER AND EASIER !!!!

5) CONTROLLER BUTTON HOT KEYS permanently attached to Menu Items NEED TO BE LEFT THERE AS OPTIONAL WAYS TO SELECT, e.g. Square / Triangle / X / Circle
----->  These are THE FASTEST WAY to select ANYTHING, and there is NO annoying "hunt & drag" manipulation to try to align the cursor over the desired item AT ALL.

6) MOUSE CURSORS are for PC, NOT FOR CONSOLES !!!!  The WHOLE IDEA of a Mouse / Cursor is the Norm for PC Players ONLY.
-----> The VERY REASON we select a CONSOLE is for Expedited Controls!!!  A cursor is WHOLEY OUT OF PLACE on Linear Console Menus!!!

7) CHATS - the words are EXTREMELY TINY.  The NAMES are EXTREMELY TINY.  Having to manipulate a cursor to land in "just the right spot" before you click "Talk" or "Invite" etc is UNBELIEVABLY BACKWARDS, ANNOYING, and a WASTE OF TIME.
----->  The odds of clicking on the WRONG entry (e.g. not the one desired but rather one just above or just below) is ENORMOUSLY INCREASED.
----->  LEAVE the Controller "Shape Keys" (Square / Triangle / X / Circle) as ways to RAPIDLY select what you want!!! 
----->  LEAVE the Joystick as the simple Up / Down or Left / Right control of navigating to the desired item!!!  MUCH MUCH FASTER & MORE EFFICIENT!!!

8 ) SOLUTION:  Allow Players To Choose
----->  KEEP the OLD System, AND allow players who really love the new cursor system (of which I am not seeing ANY in the Region Chat etc - overall people HATE the Cursor System on CONSOLES)
----->  I am sure the PC players think the cursor great because they ALWAYS use a Mouse, etc.  It is PART OF THE PC way to Play ONLY.
----->  Make the DEFAULT the OLD / ORIGINAL System, and allow players to switch in the OPTIONS if they want to try the "New Experimental Cursor".... much like you did with Archwing Controls. 
----->  GIVE US THE CHOICE AT LEAST.

9)  As above: GIVE US A CHOICE if we want the new (awful) cursor system, or want to Navigate Our Menus using the Old / Original System
----->  Place a TOGGLE in the OPTIONS

Thank you.

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@[DE]Danielle We need the possibilty to change our keybinds for keyboard and mouse on console, also we can't use keyboard and mouse for everything like hacking, extract defense mission, use gear, ect. It seems that every other actions than the interact who need the Square or X button on console are unavailable on keyboard.
Hopefully this will be fix, thank you all for your hard work 😉

Edited by (PS4)JusteKevin
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Let me start off by saying that nothing gets me as excited as a silky smooth user interface. I was looking more forward to a revamped UI than I was to getting Khora. Warframe has a reputation for being needlessly complex. That's where a lot of people have fun. There are menus upon menus of things to equip or interact with. There has been talk on the devstream where people tell stories of others who have tried warframe, and were intimidated by all the menus. Imagine if it was both the menus, and the method of navigation that where cumbersome. People have said they have gotten used to this new system and that's fine. You can get used to it, I can too. That does not mean it's in a good state. Warframe. more so than most games needs a fluid interaction system. As much care needs to be put into UI navigation as was put into controlling your warframe. If a new player has too many negative experiences in menus, however trivial they may be, they stand a lower chance of doing things like modding their weapons properly. Buying/building new guns, or leveling mods/ learning what they do. These annoyances will pile up so they escape the menus to missions, where they will slowly find themselves being outpaced by the game's content, where they will then claim that they "just don't get the game", and move on.

Let me take you on a guided tour to switch my Inaros from Config A to Config B.

-I step in the arsenal and press X to open it, then press Y to open my upgrade screen. All good so far, thank you for the shortcut implementation.

-I press RB to switch to Config B. Instead the bottom tray is switched from "All" to "Aura". Upon first entering this screen, two UI elements both show that we can interact with them by LB/RB at the same time. I feel whichever tray has the focus, the top window or the bottom one, should populate the LB/RB button commands on screen. Furthermore, the top  tray should have focus when entering the upgrade screen to allow quick switching of configs.

-I notice that the bottom tray received my RB command instead of the top tray. So I press D-pad up to snap to a mod that is currently equipped in my top tray. The cursor is currently in the correct window. I press RB again. The bottom tray switches from "Aura" to "Augment. Entering the top tray using the d-pad snap instead of the left stick cursor does not bring focus to the top window. If instead of snapping to an element in the top tray, I would have used the left stick, the top tray would have been given focus and my RB command would have changed to config B.

-I now have to move my cursor off of the selected mod and on to a new mod in the top tray in order for the top tray to be given focus. This highlights the largest issue with the smart cursor system. It is not smart, it can not change focus from window to window. It also snaps to non-intuitive UI but more on that later.

The smart cursor is not smart enough to handle the quick navigation window at all. When pressing RB to open the Alerts, invasion, Sortie, and other miscellaneous stuff, the smart cursor does not even know it exists. This isn't simply a focus problem like the arsenal one, the D-pad cannot interact with this window. This is particularly annoying since you used to easily be able to snap to this element.

When in the void relic refinement screen, after selecting a relic you wish to refine and tapping D-pad right to snap over to the elements on the right side that allow you to refine relics, your smart cursor takes a field trip to the scroll bar. Why in the world would I need to snap to the scroll bar when I can scroll up and down with the right analogue? If given a mouse to navigate this window, I would not left click on the scroll bar and drag it to where I want it to go. I would use the mouse scroll wheel. I cannot fathom the state of depression I would need to be in to make me want to navigate a scrollbar using a cursor controlled by an analogue stick, but the smart cursor will interact with this; when I can't use the d-pad's quick navigation properties in the literal quick navigation window in the paragraph described above?

Opening the chat window and using the D-pad to snap to the names in chat will show me that I can press A while I have their name selected. Pressing A does nothing. D-pading over to the names does not grant focus to the small window that contains the names, so you are just press A in some other window where your cursor is. If I move my cursor over to the name of the play I wish to contact, and then press A, I am given an even smaller menu populated with things like talk and invite. D-pad snapping to talk and pressing A again does nothing. Because, of course, this new menu that has opened does not have focus.I now need to cursor over to the word talk, something that is as small as the cursor itself. Mere inches away from the three options I have to ban somebody from my alliance chat.

Mid mission it's a complete pain to check somebodies load out because you can't snap to the drop down menus for each individual player by using d-pad up like you used to. Furthermore, is you do put focus on the drop down menu, the new expanded option doesn't have focus. Grineer heads on the plains of eidolon from 100m have an easier hitbox than the leave squad option does in this menu. Futhermore, on occasion with the drop down menu opened, holding left-analogue to the right to look at another player's loadout will sometimes behave as if you pressed d-pad down and snap to a lower snap point on your loadout box. Why? Why would holding the analogue stick right make it snap down? The smart cursor isn't smart, it's drunk.

When you have a mod selected, there is a visible cursor in the way of the text. For many mods, as the card expands the cursor is displayed over the picture, or event he mod name. You presumably read the mod name before selecting it so you know what it is, this isn't a problem. But the more text on a mod, the higher the words on the mod creep up towards the top. Common sense of course, but when selecting things like rivens that may have an entire paragraph of unlock criteria, you're met with a situation where you need to capture a <top of cursor> target without <middle of cursor> while wearing a <bottom of cursor>ing dragon key. It tends to get in the way of the new set mods too that have a ton more text compared to most. Perhaps, when a mod is selected, instead of displaying a cursor in the middle of it, make the cursor invisible. The mod stays expanded, you can read what it does and enjoy the art team's work that they put into the picture on the mod. Snapping in a  direction will simply expand that new mod, whereas moving the cursor via the left stick will make the cursor visible until it has anchored onto a new mod and expanded that.

There's also two invisible snap-to points in the operator menus. I presume this is because the screen used to have five options (the schools), but now it has three options (focus, equipment, appearance). The strange thing is that these snap-to points are not where the old options where, but in the middle of nowhere. I can snap to my operators collarbone which does absolutely nothing, but I can't snap to the quick navigation menu, Why God.

 

Edited by (XB1)ExoSin
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21 hours ago, (PS4)obravo430430 said:

same problem here but Im trying to disable the particles and it keeps going back to medium

Yeah, I just want to set it to max lol since I have a PS4 Pro 😄

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Realizing that my controller has some mild stick-drift, which is making some of the menus unusable, namely the mission selection.

This is turning into a disaster. Introducing a cursor is causing way more problems than it fixes. I think the best option would be to revert back, and maybe attempt this "unification"/cursor strategy from another angle, because it seems you've upset not only console players, but also PC players who are now facing problems with these changes.

I'm actually kind of excited to see Twitch Primetime tonight, the chat reaction should be pretty interesting.

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Ok, So even after the last 2 Patches, D-Pad functionality is still fundamentally broken. If you fix this, 99% of people will be fine with the Cursor.

 

As it stands the Cursor will skip over selections in various menus. This us because the cursor auto connects to the first thing in a given direction.

Example: In the Equipment Pause menu. If you are hovering over Void Relic Refinement and press down, the cursor will skip Mods and go straight to Abilities.

 

The next issue is that when using the D-Pad, the cursor locks onto what ever is closest to it. So if you left the cursor near the bottom of the screen and try to use the D-Pad in a different menu it will lock to somthing near the bottom instead of starting at the top.

Example: If I open the Pause Menu and press down on the D-Pad the Cursor should ALWAYS apear at Navigation. As it is now, if the cursor was left somewhere else, it will lock to whatever is closest which could be anything. This should also reset between menus. If I open the Pause menu and click Communication, then press down on the D-pad it should highlight Friends. Right now, it doesnt do anything as the Cursor is just out in nothing.

 

Next is the Right Sticks Usage with the D-Pad. You should NEVER have to use the Right Stick in menus while using the D-Pad. Period. As it stands right now, In the Foundry, Modding, and Inventory, you cannot cycle the menu without the Right Stick. Before, clicking Right on the D-Pad in the Modding menu would keep moving your rows of mods down to the right. Now, you cannot do this and MUST use the Right Stick. Same with foundry, before I could go through my Foundry with only the D-Pad. Now I need the D-Pad and the Right Stick. THIS IS THE MOST SERIOUS THING THAT MUST BE FIXED.

 

Lastly, you need to set the D-Pad Cursor sensitivity to max by default and keep it seperate from the Left stick Sensitivity. When I press Down on the D-Pad in ANY menu, it should Snap INSTANTLY(Like it did BEFORE) As it is right now, there is a VERY noticable delay between ALL button presses using the D-Pad due to the Travel time on the Cursor. THE CURSOR SHOULD TELEPORT NOT SLIDE.

 

Other that those, the Cursor is bearable but still WORSE in almost EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY from what we had. We dont use Keyboard and Mouse on Playstation and Xbox doesnt support it. Forcing this on us is not only going to drive longtime fans away but deter new players due to the bad UI. Warframe is 90% Menus. If your menus are slow, clunky, and unintuitive that means 90% of your game is REALLY BAD.

 

Honestly, I would just Revert back to the control scheme that we had. Then, If the New UI overhaul really needs it and was designed to work like that, unlike the current UI, then give us the Cursor.

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Everwhere something is selected (an item: Mod/decoration/etc) needs to be re-visited.  Placing decorations in the dojo is a PITA: click the item ... cursor over to select item.   Dojo obstacle course room is built but is its way to frustrating and tedious to build.

 

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Honest question here (Not accusatory, just looking to understand): Why do you want to unify the controls across all platforms? Having experience with both PC and XB1, I must say that I prefer XB1's controls over PC. This is usually due to the fact that pushing crtl, shift, and A to slide while looking to the right feels really clunky and I simply don't have enough fingers on that side of my hand for it, but also due to the way Corpus Hacking works with the cursor vs. control stick. Control stick feels a lot more intuitive and allows for much faster response time, whereas on PC, that being the only high-stress time you need to use the cursor, the sensitivity isn't easy to get spot-on, and the location of the cursor must be determined before you can even begin to look at the configuration and how to proceed with hacking the terminal. I have the blessing of a touch-screen laptop that I play my PC account on, which sometimes does and sometimes doesn't help with that, but regardless a touchscreen computer shouldn't be a requirement to enjoy a smooth UI. I think I've started rambling, sorry about that XD

But regardless of the details I included, I'm curious as to the reason behind the goal to unify the control schematics across all systems?

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While I'm grateful for the improvements made by the recent hotixes, it remains the case that this cursor-based system is not ideal for console players. The goal of unification of control schemes seems to be solely for DE's benefit (it's easier and cheaper to work on one control method rather than several). A one-size-fits-all control method cannot benefit all of your users, because they have different requirements based on the hardware they use. You need distinct control methods optimised for keyboard/mouse users, keyboard/mouse/controller users, and controller-only users. That's more time consuming, more expensive, and more of a headache, but it gives the best experience for your various groups of customers. Happy customers spend more money and get new customers for you.

If the goal is to decrease time between updates for console players,I think you'll find most of us would rather wait a bit for our updates as long as the game itself is a pleasure to play, not a chore. I think you've  lost a lot of goodwill with this update, and now you're having to run around putting out fires with Tennocon and new content looming, and that's a real shame.

I know you want a new, slick UI, and that's great, but that can't come at the cost of the customers'' overall experience. If you're determined to push ahead with it, you NEED people working on it who understand controller-based gaming, because it's very clear that this was not the case with this update.

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Saw there was a new patch for Warframe. Was hoping this would remove the virtual cursor but no, the accursed thing is still there. Sorry DE, but there's no fixing this mistake other then removing it completely. Do not try to mend it, do not try to adjust it. Just simply forget the entire idea about a virtual cursor before you lose half your player base over this one issue alone. Once that happens it'll be too late to fix it as the damage has already been done.

DE might be wanting a unified UI to streamline the updates between the three platforms but honestly, you're going to have to make differences between the platforms due to the difference in control types. I suggest taking pointers from Final Fantasy XIV. They run cross-platform between PC and PS4, update both platforms at the exact same time, use the same UI for KB/M and controller with some small differences in how it looks. When you have the game configured to KB/M you use the mouse cursor and keyboard shortcuts to navigate. When you have it in controller mode you press the touch pad to swap focus between windows and the other buttons to interact with them. They even let you control the mouse cursor with the touch pad if you want and if you absolutely must use it, there's even the option to enable a virtual cursor. Keyword being option, not default.

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So that's it? Just gonna ignore all the criticisms and feedback you guys are getting, all the backlash of people begging you not to go forward with the virtual cursor, and all you have to say on Primetime is "thank you for being patient?" There's nothing to be patient about, this update breaks the game for some people!

You launched a broken update that goes against the wishes of a very large portion of your player-base, and it's causing more headaches than are needed. You're working on "emergency fixes"? That's it? That's all we get? You take care of the "worst offenders" and we have to sit on our hands and hope the mainline update doesn't mess things up even more? And not only do we have to become accustomed to this hot garbage UI, but in a few weeks, we have to relearn a brand new UI that apparently comes in The Sacrifice?

What kind of mental gymnastics did you guys do to think this was a good idea?

Edited by (PS4)MrBrightside1189
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I just ran into a bug where I can't change my mod configs. Not only did the bumpers not work to do it, neither did just selecting it with the cursor. Switching frames/weapons didn't help. That's kinda a game breaker for those of us with multiple configs.

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I appreciate we have our quick buttons back but please just undo all of the UI changes. There was nothing wrong with the old one, everything is wrong with this one--it's a console its not supposed to have a cursor. The new UI looks awful and it's less colorful then the last. It's a struggle to do simple thing like leave a squad or apply mods now. Even the d-pad is till slower than before. If I wanted a PC cursor I would play my PC. I don't want a PC experience on my PS4 I hate it. TAKE AWAY THIS NEW STUPID UI.

EDIT: I forgot to add that this annoyance is so frustrating (even more so than knockdowns and cold affects) that it keeps me from wanting to play Warframe right now. Especially the fact that I can't preview an armor or syandana, etc  without it equipping. And I have went to other games but I'm bored I wanna play my bae WF not some boring game but if this UI sticks I guess I play when Umbra comes but find a new main game instead. 

Edited by (PS4)ShadewDonger
forgot to add something
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12 hours ago, (PS4)JusteKevin said:

@[DE]Danielle We need the possibilty to change our keybinds for keyboard and mouse on console, also we can't use keyboard and mouse for everything like hacking, extract defense mission, use gear, ect. It seems that every other actions than the interact who need the Square or X button on console are unavailable on keyboard.
Hopefully this will be fix, thank you all for your hard work 😉

This plz I have always wanted to try to play on M/K but weird little bugs like this ruin the experience. 

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Please please please! Just make it so that the cursor is instantly placed on the first option once you access a menu, this is too slow as it is since even if you use the d-pad to select an option it will still mess up and get on a different one other than the first.

If I press Options (on Dualshock 4) I want the cursor to be automatically put on navigation, and the same for all the other menus (like Arsenal->Frame slot, Foundry->1st blueprint, Mods->1st mod etc.). Menuing it too slow as it is (even with the shortcuts back).

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3 hours ago, JesterTheNight said:

Please please please! Just make it so that the cursor is instantly placed on the first option once you access a menu, this is too slow as it is since even if you use the d-pad to select an option it will still mess up and get on a different one other than the first.

If I press Options (on Dualshock 4) I want the cursor to be automatically put on navigation, and the same for all the other menus (like Arsenal->Frame slot, Foundry->1st blueprint, Mods->1st mod etc.). Menuing it too slow as it is (even with the shortcuts back).

Yes! If we have to put up with this.... can't think of description lacking swearing right now.... then they can at least make things more comfortable. What gets me is these hotfixes and changes they're making... it's basically going to be all d pad with a cursor over the top- which just begs the question what was the point of implementing the bloody thing in the first place?

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I want to say that I recognize this is a step towards closing the development gap between consoles and PC.

When this mess gets cleared-up (as we know it will in some form), what is the big laundry list of changes that need to be made to all platforms to make content updates, patches, development, etc. closer to being simultaneous?

I realize that the cursor implementation and UI changes are part of a first phase of a much larger series of changes, and currently is not as good as it could be (obviously)...

...but, what could mitigate future points of dev/community contention over a UX change like this might be achieved by DE laying its cards on the table to show their projected roadmap toward platform parity.

I'll weather some janky cursor controller UI stuff if it means updates hit PC and consoles at the same time OR, at the very least, with a much shorter gap than what we currently have (if I am reading Steve's tweets correctly, this is the goal).

@[DE]Danielle, can you speak to any of this?

 

P. S - Sorry if I spelled your name wrong.

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When I start playing Warframe few years ago, both PC and PS4, I found, that controller is more comfortable to use for moving, fighting and using abilities. So I decided to continue playing on PS. The main difference between real mouse and virtual cursor, that mouse moves with speed of your hand - faster or slower - as you chose. That's its main advantage. And the mouse wheel too.

Virtual cursor has a constant speed, no matter, how fast you operate your controller's stick.

At this point, I'll advise not to stretch the owl on the globe. If you try to do similar experience on PC and consoles, and use such uncomfortable and unintuitive menu scheme on both - nobody will use controller on PC and many newcomers swithes to games with more common menu control.

I can now use Xbox controller with PC, but if I can't do all ingame stuff fast and with comfort - it shouldn't be used at all. Unifiing means you can use both controll methods with similar efficiency. With correction on hardware limitations, I wrote above, of course. Maybe, you should bring full KB and mouse support on consoles first?

Edited by (PS4)PixelHunter9000
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DE, give some love to the keyboard. I want to be able to select with cursor keys. The cursor keys are jealous of the D-Pad getting all the love.

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still needs a few more adjustments

 

Navigation:  once you click navigation and click L1 lets say your trying to look at the new sorties for today, you still gotta drag the cursor and put it on the nav menu to scroll down the sorties missions with Directional button. pls put back the Dpad click down and able to scroll down navigaton missions without putting the cursor on it first

Mod: when your on warframe mod (upgrade) where ever my dpad is on at the moment, that is where the L1 and R1 works, the update made it a bit difficult because I have to put the cursor on the warframe mod to be able to switch between all 3 of my build. if you go to the mods on any frame and click L1 or R1 the only thing that moves is the selection of mods below switching between polarities, even if you press Dpad to go up to the mods you equiped and press L1, you still cant choose between your builds you still gotta drag the cursor to equiped mods to be able to use that options.

Selection Skip: press option then to equipment, press down on dpad to go to mods and you'll notice from void relic refinement, jumps to abilities and skips MOD options.

Show Profile: while you can scroll up and down with the Dpad in option menu it wont let you go up to "show profile" you have to drag cursor up there and click it.

Closing PM window: before you can just click X and it shows you your options on what to do with this person your talking to, you either ignore or close window now you gotta put the cursor on his name before you can open that options or just click that big X next to his name. as a console player navigating cursor with your left thumb (PC players usually navigates mouse with their right hand, we console players are not use to cursor and we have to navigate it with a left thumb) is a bit difficult. give us that option back where you can just click X to open the option menu.

Remove All: why did you put a remove all options in the equipped mod, the triangle use to be just remove on one single mod that was highlighted but now it remove all, i accidentally removed all my mods and unable to remove just one. i tried to tweek around see how to get around this and i found that if you put the cursor on the specific mod you want to unequip the triangle is just REMOVE, but if you put the cursor on it and click X, the triangle becomes REVOME ALL..  if the played accidentally clicks X he could end up removing all his mods, please remove this option REMOVE ALL, it is not necessary. if you have to have this option put it on a different button not triangle

 

 

Edited by (PS4)jedion
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