Map nuking. Is it really necessary? (minor rant inc)

[Uskradetat]

Allow me to just preface this by saying I am expecting to get a bit of flak for this ranting/whining, but it has to be said.

Is this really necessary to have in the game? Warframes being able to spam nuke the entire map in 1-2 buttons with next to no setup is the single most Fun Destroying thing in this game. (next to limbo impeding your ability to actually shoot anything. rip. that's whole other topic) 

I want to be able to join public matches to play with other people, not stand around with my **** in my hand not able to contribute because there's a Saryn, an Equinox, a Banshee or a Volt etc nuking the entire map every 5 seconds. I find I'm spending more and more time running around looking for things to attack than actually attacking. 
This is just not an enjoyable experience in the least for anybody besides the person killing everything. It's not about the focus, affinity, damage or whatever. It's about the fact there is barely anything left for anyone else to do. And it's not a rare occurrence as we all know, we all run into these builds in every other match we join and they just suck the fun out of it. 

"would you rather the mission took 10 times longer?": I play this game for fun like most people, if a mission takes twice as long but is twice as fun, I don't see a problem with that, that's time well spent IMO. 

"Why not just host your own games then?": Convenience, more than anything. The ability to just jump into a random squad is great, rather than the hassle of finding 1-3 other people in recruitment and having someone leave cause its taking too long etc. I also don't like to host due to distance, generally makes other people lag if I host. 

"If you don't like it, just leave the match." Leave every other match? it's difficult enough to find squads half the time in my region, let alone finally getting into say an ESO for example, just to leave and re-queue because of one of these frames 

There is a very fine line to be drawn between both Fun and Efficiency in this game and I understand it's incredibly difficult to strike a balance. But this S#&$ is ridiculous. 

I love this game, I'm only 375 hours in, and I can safely say this is one the best games I've played in recent years. But this nuking S#&$ I've been gritting my teeth over since day one. Could it be toned back a tad?

Edited June 10, 2018 by Uskradetat

[krc473]

15 minutes ago, Uskradetat said:

"would you rather the mission took 10 times longer?": I play this game for fun like most people, if a mission takes twice as long but is twice as fun, I don't see a problem with that, that's time well spent IMO. 

That is the really big issue here. How many times have you tried to farm something, only to have to do the same mission 50+ times? When you are faced with unreasonable grind, the fun kind of vanishes. Sure, the missions could be fun the first few times, but after 50 repeats, you just get sick of it. There is no enjoyment in that, at all. 

 

So, here is my question: would you rather it take 10 times as long, and be bored out of your mind?

• Personally, I would not. So I feel we absolutely need map nuking. 

I would say the loot system is almost completely at fault for this "problem".

Edited June 10, 2018 by krc473

[throwaway987654321]

Nuking is the only reason I can stand doing anything in this grindfest the single most enjoyable thing in this game for me.

You'll find that the sole reason people bring nukers is to compensate for the grind. Literally no sane person on earth wants to spend over 1,000 hours minimum on a game to gain access to its content, especially when that content provides only an hour or two of entertainment for every dozen hours of grinding.

When DE overhauls Warframe so players don't feel like they have to be as efficient as possible, then you'll see people actually use the frames they want to. But, as we all know, it's more profitable to pile grind upon grind onto players so they'll spend money on boosters and buy frames outright, and to then nerf everything that makes it easier for other players to access content and enjoy themselves (ie nukeframes).

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

Few problems with your logic. 

Yes Map nuking is Necessary. As people have different opinions for what is fun, and different methods for getting the items, affinity, experience or materials they need. It's a time saver just not for you, but for the person/people who have been farming out the incredible time sinks in this game. To say that they don't have the right ts use their time the most efficient way they want is wrong, as you don't control how people use their time. People who are forma-ing their weapons or frame out for the 8th time, just so they can put on that last mod for the build they want, have every right to skip the tediousness of the process. 

By doing a public match, you lose all and any right to complain about the teammates you get. You play any other game, say Overwatch, Call of Duty, Monster Hunter, etc, Nobody ever complains about their teammates over-performing. 

You get the teammates you are matched with. The good, the bad, and the ugly. You lose any and all right to complain, when you join a mission for convenience sake, and it's "Too" convenient for you. If enemies are dying to quickly for you, there are much harder missions to run, against enemies that will outscale nuking very quickly. Any enemy over level 70 will outpace the ability for most frames to insta-delete. 

Public matches are well... Public. Shocker! This means anyone. The Veteran with 1000+ hours can join, the newby with 20 seconds can join. There are so many time sinks in this game, and if you are bothered by your teammates being too competent, you need to either make yourself and your builds able to compete with them, or get like minded people to play with, (one who can preferably host in your stead).

Edited June 10, 2018 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[Traumtulpe]

While I very much understand the frustration caused by all enemies dropping dead, leaving nothing to do for some players, it is also very much frustrating having to search for, target and shoot, every little enemy that could never even pose a threat to you if you were afk.

The solution to this problem is not neutering abilities affecting large areas, but either matchmaking or (preferably) scaling.

I would propose 2 different aspects of scaling:

1. Adjust the scaling of enemies to where they are never insignificant like flies and also never have 99.9% damage reduction, making it more gradual.
2. Adjust the enemies drops to be appropriate to the difficulty they pose to you (to disincentivize fighting weak enemies and reward challenges).

 

[Nacond]

I play rpgs mostly. I usually hate shooters... 

So nearly all of my frames are melee and built to use their skills...

And I love playing mages sending down firestorms to kill hordes of my enemy.

So yeah for me such skills are a lot of fun. I really loved the nuking saryn (1.0) and the prenerv limbo...

And after playing for... maybe 1200 hours levelling up is much more fun when you are nuking...

[o.0-]

I think I get where you are coming from with sharing this experience.

I began Warframe playing solo, and as the game evolved, having so much added to change the experience, that I eventually hopped into groups to get help through the Star Map in that time, and am now at a point of dropping in groups to help and derp around with different things, as I can now be available to carry others through almost everything (so being honest, Lua Rescue and Spy, I need to run more to be firm in what I need to do compared to other missions).

So from a nostalgic perspective, I so totally feel that want of how Warframe first felt, as a sole operative desperately fighting to survive and make a difference, compared to now with all of my mods, forma and MR, looking to find niches to keep me interested.

I only did farming as a necessity, and have seen and read how it can be an obsessive compulsion that I've fortunately only felt with very few Prime items here and there, so I still continue to grimace, whenever I read that Warframe is supposed to be a 'horde game'.

[kyori]

It is fun if you are the one doing it.

It is unfun if you are not the one doing it.

When I started playing, I played warframe like I played some single-player games... that is sneak around avoiding the cameras, enemies... or kill them slowly one by one like in other games etc. But warframe is just not those games. Also because of the repetitive nature of the game's modes, I soon would like to complete missions as fast as possible.

Unlike single-player games which has a progression and an end, warframe has extremely slow story progression and no end. It is simply a game of doing the same thing over and over. So I don't really want to take my time killing enemies one by one, taking cover and shoot back etc. 

[torint_man]

Map nuking literally can't not happen in warframe so long as abilities that deal significant damage in an AoE exist. I somehow doubt they are going anywhere, so we all have to live with it. I don't think it's a bad thing that players feel compelled to play solo. All the missions I can think of that are optimally played in PUGs and allow for trivial nuking can either allow for one to distance themselves from nuke frames (survival) or you objectively benefit from them existing (fissures, xp farming). Solo play by default, PUGs when I benefit from doing so is how I roll. When I see people complaining about people using nuke frames on basic star chart missions and alerts, I just have ask why they are going public in the first place. It's rarely faster and oftentimes slower to do basic missions on public.

[zNightWolfz]

OP i have to say it if you dont like others nuking then go put your game on solo or invite only...

Problem solved (Solo it) or(Invite Only)

 

[Aleksi134]

The scaling of the game in general is broken so i couldnt care less. Where people complain about nuking is starchart where enemies die to really anything in 1 hit.

[m0b1us1]

Here is the unfortunate truth, it absolutely is necessary... but not because of the players, but because of the game itself.

The amount of grinding you do isn't that bad on it's own, however when you add all the RNG then it is drastically worse. Perfect example is PoE. When it was released, the grind was so bad that many players simply stopped going there altogether. The bounties, after doing everything, only rewarded you with 1 drop. These drops could even be garbage drops.

If you want to advance into this game, you absolutely have to grind. Now imagine if you want a valkyr p, but with all the available relics it takes you 2 hours to get 2 relics for a single part and you get tons of other relics you don't need or filler drops. Then if you get unlucky in a share, those 2 hours were just wasted. The RNG  to get the drop you need plus the amount of other possible drops alone is more than enough reason to use map nukers. Add on the fact that these drops almost never guarantee you get what you need from that drop and it's even more obvious.

Want a riven for a specific weapon but don't have the plat? 3 missions, one can be a 10 wave defense mission with level 80-100 enemies. Others are timed and others can be done quickly. If you tried to finish a 10 wave defense sortie mission with frames/weapons like Frost and a latron p, you are going to take several times longer than if you used any damage oriented frame with an aoe weapon. All that time, just to get a CHANCE at getting a riven, that MIGHT be for the weapon type you want, that MIGHT be for the exact weapon you want it for. Oh and if you want specific stats? Then you have to reroll it for a completely random chance of getting stats that you want, and forget about ever finding the exact stats you want for it unless you are looking for a crazy strong roll and are willing to spend several k in plat. Looking for an argonak riven with slash, poison, reload, and -puncture? Good luck ever finding someone selling that specific riven because a lot of people will instantly reroll that until they think they can sell it for a ton more.

So yeah, nuking is absolutely necessary because DE makes this game so heavily RNG based that it will take absurd amounts of time just to get that one thing you want.

Try doing this if anyone wants a more clear idea of what I mean. Pick a specific meso relic that is currently unvaulted. Now go solo with your frame of choice (don't use AoE damaging abilities) and a single target focused weapons like the latron prime and rakata dark dagger. Go to Io on jupiter and play until you get 3 of those relics. Now repeat the process but use map clearing frames like Equinox, along with aoe weapons and wide sweeping melees. Now, compare the times, then keep in mind that if you wanted the rare drop of that relic, there is only a CHANCE that you will get it in a rad share. There comes a point where the time and grind needed to get what you want completely outweighs "fun" in low level missions.

That then leads into a reason why vets are so absolutely bored now since DE has removed raids and is trying to pass off eidolons and EOS as end game even though someone who has done the grind breezes through all of these with absolutely no problem. But that's for another discussion altogether.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

40 minutes ago, m0b1us1 said:

That then leads into a reason why vets are so absolutely bored now since DE has removed raids and is trying to pass off eidolons and EOS as end game even though someone who has done the grind breezes through all of these with absolutely no problem. But that's for another discussion altogether.

I miss the raids. (Yes, I said it. Come at me!)

[(PSN)Damontar]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I miss the raids. (Yes, I said it. Come at me!)

LOL I Couldn't agree more.

But back to the topic.. and a little reinforcing of what people already stated. Blame the RNG and the ultra low 5% drop rate. In a way Map Nukers are needed. I actually enjoy having some1 in my party nuke the **** out of everything.. if i am on my Ev Trinity it IS a pain.. But that's a challenge for me to get that EV Bomb kicking for the few seconds of that mobs life before it get blasted to hell by the Map Nuker.. I don't mind at all. if that doesn't work... Zenurik to the rescue.. job done.

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, Dawson1917 said:

You'll find that the sole reason people bring nukers is to compensate for the grind. Literally no sane person on earth wants to spend over 1,000 hours minimum on a game to gain access to its content, especially when that content provides only an hour or two of entertainment for every dozen hours of grinding.

What about in situations where mass killing isn't important, like grinding Relics on Captures, Rescues and Survivals where nukers don't get to the reward any faster than non-nukers? I see plenty of nukers in missions and contexts where mass killing with single buttons does nothing to expedite the process of receiving a reward. I'm not saying tons of grind isn't a factor, but it certainly isn't the only reason people play nukers.

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Damontar said:

But back to the topic.. and a little reinforcing of what people already stated. Blame the RNG and the ultra low 5% drop rate. In a way Map Nukers are needed.

In that case, what do you think the drop rate threshold would be for map nukers to lose their popularity (or feeling of obligatory use for some players)? 30%? 50%? And even if we had a really good probability of getting the rare drops within just 2-3 missions instead of 20, I somehow doubt players would be less inclined to wipe maps with single button presses. I really don't think we can blame only grind here.

Edited June 10, 2018 by SenorClipClop

[Praesagium]

hace 10 horas, SenorClipClop dijo:

What about in situations where mass killing isn't important, like grinding Relics on Captures, Rescues and Survivals 

Well  to be fair if you dont play a stealth frame on rescue and if you set the alarms on, you need to nuke a bunch of enemies entering the cell, in survivals you need to kill fast and a lot for more spawns and life supports(the ones thats enemies drops), for relics you need to kill fast on some missions, on capture enemies are on alert so they keep coming to you.

hace 10 horas, SenorClipClop dijo:

In that case, what do you think the drop rate threshold would be for map nukers to lose their popularity (or feeling of obligatory use for some players)? 30%? 50%? And even if we had a really good probability of getting the rare drops within just 2-3 missions instead of 20, I somehow doubt players would be less inclined to wipe maps with single button presses. I really don't think we can blame only grind here.

The problem its not the drop chance, its the numbers of enemies that spawn and that drops something useful (like stances and other mods), and the rewards locked behind a 5 wave/round, so you want to end/kill the wave/enemies fast to see wat you can get.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Praesagium

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, Praesagium said:

The problem its not the drop chance, its the numbers of enemies that spawn and that drops something useful (like stances and other mods), and the rewards locked behin a 5 wave/round, so you want to end/kill the wave/enemies fast to see wat you can get.

That's still drop chance and the same reasoning applies. If we got those rare drops with a fraction of the current grind's time, I'm not sure we'd see a big difference in the use of easynukes. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Imo the issue is Warframe has never been "play with friends" and has actually more been "play in the same space as others."  Frame interaction with each other is pretty minimum.  There are some interesting synergies out there like fracturing crush on slova targets means the enemies never get up.  But there isn't many.  On top of that even though each activity is designed to be played with others the devs still want to make sure solo play is valid.  This is good in concept but the way it's executed in game is poorly.  The main issue being enemy spawns.

They can't make frames co-dependent because that invalidates solo play.  And they can't really buff enemy spawns in non 4 player content because then people wouldn't really play with each other.  Most choose to play with others to leech off of or just because of the spawns.  (on the rare occasion to get carried.)  There really isn't a simple solution here.  If we take away saryn's power she's borderline useless.  She could be made into a debuffer.  But when you don't have content that really calls for that and other frames out there that can just out right kill why would you use her?

Enemy defense gets pretty out of hand.  So killing power is highly valued.  If this didn't exist then CC frames would dominate even more than they currently do.

[Wordse]

8 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

What about in situations where mass killing isn't important, like grinding Relics on Captures, Rescues and Survivals where nukers don't get to the reward any faster than non-nukers? I see plenty of nukers in missions and contexts where mass killing with single buttons does nothing to expedite the process of receiving a reward. I'm not saying tons of grind isn't a factor, but it certainly isn't the only reason people play nukers.

 

8 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

In that case, what do you think the drop rate threshold would be for map nukers to lose their popularity (or feeling of obligatory use for some players)? 30%? 50%? And even if we had a really good probability of getting the rare drops within just 2-3 missions instead of 20, I somehow doubt players would be less inclined to wipe maps with single button presses. I really don't think we can blame only grind here.

Feeling powerful and using giant space magic is cool. Maybe more enemies with a cap on big AOE targets?

Also for your second question as long as people just want to get stuff and stockpile things as fast as possible people will want to invalidate the stuff in game to get through it faster.

[DjKaplis]

Umm to your question I would say - depends on situation.

On maps like Sanctuary onslaught or defense missions where also people go to get resources fast and farm daily focus (I for example have 375k daily) - yes, I would prefer map nuking, without it you would spend too much time daily just doing the same missions.

 

On every other mission tho map nuking is not really neccessary and for sure is less fun than using weapons and other methods to kill enemies.

 

So do we need frames and setups that can nuke maps? Yes. Do we want those setups on every mission? No.

Edited June 10, 2018 by DjKaplis

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I'd be completely fine with missions taking 10 times as long if they're 10 times as rewarding in both xp and resources. 

[StabbyTentacles]

16 hours ago, Uskradetat said:

There is a very fine line to be drawn between both Fun and Efficiency in this game and I understand it's incredibly difficult to strike a balance. But this S#&$ is ridiculous. 

From your position, one that has only began to scratch the Warframe surface so to speak. 

The only work around would be a MR lock that stopped you playing with more advanced players; that said it has been my experience that most underpowered player's enjoy playing/nuking maps. Making accelerated progress. You do not. Perhaps an option, you click it and are then only matched with players of your power level?

I would never play this game again, if all missions took 10x longer, an hour survival = 10 hours, yep that sounds awesome.

[LightningsVengance]

Ah yes, rant for now, my brethren... But soon map nuking will be mere child's play when we face off against the mighty Sentients of the Tau system... Today, we map nuke the enemies, but tomorrow, THEY MAP NUKE US!

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

14 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

What about in situations where mass killing isn't important, like grinding Relics on Captures, Rescues and Survivals where nukers don't get to the reward any faster than non-nukers? I see plenty of nukers in missions and contexts where mass killing with single buttons does nothing to expedite the process of receiving a reward. I'm not saying tons of grind isn't a factor, but it certainly isn't the only reason people play nukers.

It's absolutely necessary to map nuke in all of those scenarios. 

Survivals are about killing enemies as fast as possible for as long as possible. Grinding Relics, are best done quickly. Taking time so you can get another relic that probably won't give you what you want? Most Nukers press more then two buttons, but the truth of the matter, that it is only really a problem in low tier content. 

Most people will bring the best frame for the job, or simply the most powerful. I bring frosts to mobile defense, yet a map nuker can protect the terminal just as well as me, if nobody enemies can get near it. 

 

17 hours ago, Uskradetat said:

I love this game, I'm only 375 hours in, and I can safely say this is one the best games I've played in recent years. But this nuking S#&$ I've been gritting my teeth over since day one. Could it be toned back a tad?

You are still relatively new to the game. No offense... What Mr are you? what kinds of enemies do you typically fight? Cause if you think of Warframe as a typical MMO, where people have different levels, and the higher level players would trivialize lower level content. That's the point in the game you are, if you are anywhere in the star chart under 35.