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Map nuking. Is it really necessary? (minor rant inc)


Uskradetat
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42 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

At this is factually wrong. 

Survival missions require you to kill enemies to get life support. You don't kill fast enough, you won't have enough life support to continue the mission. Taking too long, and you will run out. 

Your example is of a run that lasted two and a half hours. Sure killing in Survival matters at some point, but it really doesn't when you play within "normal" parameters. Also recall that Survival was brought up in regard to rewards, and the point made was that mass killing in Survival doesn't get you the 5-minute rewards any faster.

42 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Which is why there are multiple options to play the game. You can play the game solo, friends only, or invite only. Allowing players to choose their experience. Public games, are open to everyone. Telling somebody they can't bring something to a public game, is completely wrong.

Nobody is saying "don't bring X into public" here (except for the brief mention of Stasis Limbo in the OP). What's being said here is that the immense power of players set against the (easy) difficulty of enemies often leaves many players with nothing to do in Public matches. It's not a criticism of players (it makes sense to want to use really effective tactics like nuking), it's a criticism of the game's design. It's an action game with a focus on co-op, but it regulary encourages players to do low-level content despite being able to play on a really high level, which often results in everything getting done by Maim's slash proc among other things. The result is an action game without much action, and there's the core of the issue. I don't think nuking itself is bad (beyond creating bad habits and laziness in some players), what I think is bad is that gameplay is too easily made trivial and co-op turns into "run around trying to catch up to any kind of action".

42 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

It's duplicitous for you to ask for help, then not like the help you get. If somebody is doing the majority of the work, then try to keep up. There's a saying that beggars can't be choosers.

This is not about "asking for help". I've had times when I can't do a mission and so ask for help, and in those cases any help is appreciated. That's not what I'm talking about in this thread. What I'm saying is that very often, a player has to decide between playing alone and not getting to play.

I emboldened one sentence of your quote because I believe there's something we have different perspectives on. You use the term "work" here, as though someone doing everything in a mission is removing the work you need to do. I don't see it that way, and that's not the way it's expressed in the OP. When someone does most of the "work" in a mission to the point where other players don't get to do anything, they're not doing the work for me, they're playing the game for me. I wanted to play the game. Nobody in the mission needed a carry. When you say "beggars can't be choosers" also please remember that we're talking about Public where nobody is asking for help in the first place. We're just looking to have fun, which often isn't happening. The whole point here is that drop-in co-op (which I really love that Warframe does) all too often turns into "drop-in try to find something to do".

42 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Your idea to set Mr is largely meaningless. As Mr doesn't indicate power. A MR 8+ who doesn't bother collecting guns, and just forma's and focus builds a certain frame or weapon can easily trivialize content as much as a Mr 20. 

There are always exceptions, but in general a lower-MR player will likely bring less power to a fight than a higher-MR player. If we had a toggable MR range setting for matchmaking, it'd still let newer players have the option of getting carried if they want that, and toggled on it'd make it more likely that all players would be around the same level in a mission. Warframe has too much freedom to make any kind of solution 100% effective, but this would help.

Other solutions include scaling missions up to match a team's power or numbers (not a fan of this as it could get messy), or allowing players to set their squad size. I want to play co-operatively, but often you don't need 4 people for a mission.

Edited by SenorClipClop
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But warframe seems to have aspects of a horde shooter, so expecting to fall behind for not killing as much or as fast shouldn't be surprising. AoE abilities are also like atleast half of the entire power play experience and frame kits anyway.

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22 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Your example is of a run that lasted two and a half hours. Sure killing in Survival matters at some point, but it really doesn't when you play within "normal" parameters. Also recall that Survival was brought up in regard to rewards, and the point made was that mass killing in Survival doesn't get you the 5-minute rewards any faster.

Nobody is saying "don't bring X into public" here (except for the brief mention of Stasis Limbo in the OP). What's being said here is that the immense power of players set against the (easy) difficulty of enemies often leaves many players with nothing to do in Public matches. It's not a criticism of players (it makes sense to want to use really effective tactics like nuking), it's a criticism of the game's design. It's an action game with a focus on co-op, but it regulary encourages players to do low-level content despite being able to play on a really high level, which often results in everything getting done by Maim's slash proc among other things. The result is an action game without much action, and there's the core of the issue. I don't think nuking itself is bad (beyond creating bad habits and laziness in some players), what I think is bad is that gameplay is too easily made trivial and co-op turns into "run around trying to catch up to any kind of action".


Two things about your comment. The game doesn't promote low level content. Dark Sectors, which are normally a higher level, give the most experience and have a higher drop chance. Sorties? Yea, can't be described as low level. You might find a few people running some low level missions to get a certain material, but for the most part, once you complete the star chart and unlock everywhere, there's no point to anything low level. The last low level thing I ran, was to get the weekly ayatan treasure. 

Two, there is a very easily used, Solo/inv mode. Limiting your experience to only people one or two Mr above/below you, might as well as play solo, cause chances there aren't very many low rank people in your specific mission. You also seem to forget this game is a horde shooter. IE a game based around killing large groups of enemies. So you are actively detracting from the game, by changing the experience. if you weaken players, in low level content, scaling them down, they aren't going to do those missions, making it so you are effectively playing solo. 

Now I've played with everyone, to embers post nerf, Trinities post nerf, and Saryn in her prime. Despite that, I always had enemies to fight, and stuff to do in the mission. If you find yourself being trivialized, might a suggest you actually participate? You know, instead of complaining about it, try to you know, play the game? Cause enemies spawn wherever you go. From all corners of the map. If you are being emasculated in a public match cause you wanted to play with people for convenience, go to a part of the map by yourself. It works in every mission except exterminate, and you can safely kill things without worrying about your teammates using the powers and abilities they are so entitled to use. 

Enemies already have 90% damage reduction even in low levels. (Ancient healers will give every infested near them damage reduction, and disruptors will do the same but with warframe abilities) Corpus have their bubbles, and grineer have their armor. Enemies don't need any more defense or scaling. Unless you want everything to be a Destiny Level of BulletSponge. 

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Nuking in itself is OK, but

Am 10.6.2018 um 08:38 schrieb Uskradetat:

nuking the entire map every 5 seconds.

this is the problem.

I blame it on overabundance of energy as well as borked skill costs.

...

Oh and yeah, that "the grind makes spam neccessary" argument is absurd because

1. warframe = grind, period. what you're saying is basically: game boring, need skip button. maybe YOU should try something else then.

2. the grind is subjectively even more tedious spamming ults all day due to influx of monotony.

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I'm just going to say this again because it needs saying again apparently:

If you don't like how someone is playing in a public group, as an adult with personal responsibility you have the options of:

A) Leaving the group

B) Deciding to stay and tough it out like a champ

C) Playing Solo

D) Forming your own group in recruit/alliance/guild chat

 

I often notice people that want to complain will have reasons not to choose A-C, but very often they never address option D because, and this is my hypothesis:

They don't want to take personal responsibility for themselves and would rather complain about others than take 2 min to put a group together any time something actually matters to them.

As someone who often doesn't like how others play and doesn't want a random group for many game modes (I tend to prefer meta groups to grind more efficiently and clearly not everyone is into that), I often put together my own groups, often at the lowest traffic portions of the day (middle of the night).  It's always possible, it's always doable.

The reason I strongly believe people don't do this is because they feel they shouldn't have to, because they feel like everyone should cater to them, not recognizing that their playstyle and preferences are likely just as aggravating to someone else.

Instead they view their preferences to be "superior" and the their solutions to be "the obvious ones to make the game better for everyone" and believe all others should cave and play they way that they want to play, which is incredibly egotistical and self centered.

If this wasn't the case, then why wouldn't they select option D when confronted with it rather than ignore that argument entirely?

It seems to me the only reason they don't is because they are so entitled they feel they shouldn't have to, which is just... yeah, no.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that closes the debate on that, because I've yet to see anyone ever argue that down effectively.

PS: Frankly, while a lot of people complain about people bringing various metas, do remember, there are people like me who don't want your non meta, undergeared self in my farm group either.  You're not the greatest thing to happen to warframe, and my notions of how to play are every bit as valid 🙂 Unlike those people however, I'll be responsible and when it matters, put my own groups together rather than taking it out on everyone else.  The option is there and those that actively choose not to take it get no sympathy from me.  Frankly I'm sick of people with hard ons for nerfs screaming and throwing tantrums and getting their way, it's annoying and ruins the game for me.  How about them apples?

Edited by Klokwerkaos
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I think before Sanctuary Onslaught, it wasn't needed. But after SO, it helps. Killing the enemies in SO isn't the problem. Its getting to them fast enough so you can kill them. Nukes don't need line of sight for them to be killed. Fast warframes don't help either because your biggest enemy in SO is actually the map.

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7 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

They don't want to take personal responsibility for themselves and would rather complain about others than take 2 min to put a group together any time something actually matters to them...

The reason I strongly believe people don't do this is because they feel they shouldn't have to, because they feel like everyone should cater to them, not recognizing that their playstyle and preferences are likely just as aggravating to someone else.

Fallacious 1, fallacious 2,  and stopped reading there. Expecting the game to be designed such that the random/pug mode is generally fun for all is not some "special snowflake" unreasonable expectation. Expecting that cheeze should remain in the game despite it reducing lots of players' fun, however, -is- an unreasonable expectation.

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23 hours ago, Buttaface said:

No, my response is going to be that extreme exaggerations in your post such as "doing 40 waves in ten minutes" invalidate or severely detract from the points you are attempting.

The second sentence is a different kind of absurdity, analogous to "having community noise regulations prevent me from playing my music at 150 decibels." As a matter of fact, the game mechanics restrict how others want to play generally, and to meet absurdity with absurdity, why not just have a single button press that ends the mission and gives the reward? If that's how someone "wants to play" why is it right to restrict them?

You’re saying my point is invalid but have nothing to substantiate the invalidity. You do you, boo. 

 

My points are JUST as valid as the people who are complaining. 

 

I also want to say, that as someone who does use nuke-builds, and knows that it does frustrate people, I organize squads around it. It is NOT fair on people who play these roles responsibility to be punished and make Warframe monotonous because a couple of players can’t get kills. 

 

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4 hours ago, GrimMonsoon said:

It is NOT fair on people who play these roles responsibility to be punished and make Warframe monotonous because a couple of players can’t get kills. 

Which playstyle is more monotonous? Repeatedly press 1 button to kill everything in and out of sight OR relying on aiming, parkour, and multitude of weapons in Warframe, complemented (and not replaced) by abilities?

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People like you will never be happy until Warframes are stripped of their abilities and we are forced to just use weapons to kill enemies with massive amounts of armor and HP. Please stop.

Nuking is what makes me truly happy in this game, it's what gives me that amazing feeling of satisfaction while playing the game and makes it feel rewarding. Stop trying to take that away from us.

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On 2018-06-10 at 10:06 PM, SenorClipClop said:

The rub here is that the scaling of character power in a linear fashion matched with the static difficulty of the missions, makes for tons of situations where some players are far stronger than the mission calls for, and then other players are left with no game to play.

Solutions to this could include matching players with similar MR, or allowing players tonset the size of their Public squad.

 

I think I agree with most things you're saying...

Based on my observation these map nuking behaviors are only really prevalent on farming, and alert missions though.  If someone is complaining that people are map nuking hydron..... I mean tough.... people play hydron to power level -- most people have played it so much that they just don't wanna be there,  but are forced to level their 50th weapon for the 6th time (after forma).  Chances are for 200 out of the 270 nodes you'll be there solo,  or with someone on the same MR as the level set demands.  So -- I'm not sure if this is 100% true or not -- but realistically this conversation is literally targeted at these farming levels. 

Let's however -- for the sake of argument look at me at MR17 -- when I go to random Neptune capture to farm oxium... there's a high chance that I'm there solo. If there is a party there I ask.. Oxium farming? If yes then it's on!  Is it then reasonable if a new player to join after and demand that we leave our farm so he/she unlock the next node? 

This is really the point of the statement... in a public party,  you'll end up with people with different motivations there.  By saying "well let's take away someones abilities to make the game more fun for others", rather than say, having people actually construct parties they want to be in.... idk man... it seems wrong to tell everyone "Look just make the game the way "I" want to play it".  This game is super awesome and super fun for a lot of people, and you have the opportunity to play it however you like *right now*.  

Like the ridiculous example above of someone randomly joining a farming party asking them to go to extract because they didn't want to farm,  it's just as ridiculous to say "Well let's take out the ability to power level because some guy gets sad in a party every so often".

Don't get me wrong,  I join parties and indeed have the EXACT FEELINGS as the OP sometimes, and I'm not trying to discount that this does suck.  If you join a party as the 2nd EV Trin, the 3rd Saryn, the 4th equinox haha these parties are unsatisfying to play in as your role is completely redundant.  Removing map nukes won't fix it. Will it limit the number of times it happens to newer players?  Sure! One however can literally just reload the map and try again... It literally takes < 30 seconds.

If I'm at Hydron with a lvl 0 Titania that I'm leveling for the MR,  sometimes I'm REALLY happy that there is someone map wiping for me... in fact,  every time I'm in that situation and in a public party I'm often there with a lvl 0 limbo, and a bunch of other stuff like that and really sad that there isn't someone there helping me hahaha.

The same MR solution could be a solution for really low MR,  after MR 8 it's really a grab bag... What I mean is that I'm really only MR 17 because I ran outta things to do... I was clearing maps farming for stuff at MR 8.. it doesn't really tackle the varied motivation issue....  It's only solved with actually chatting with people 

I think there is some wisdom in keeping people segregated into either MR or "having you completed the quest to unlock your operator or not" buckets just generally,  for a bunch of reasons, spoilers, having everyone being able to contribute at least theoretically to a party, higher ability to meet people at your level and for friendships, and potentially to help mitigate occurrences of this as well.

Edited by sehafoc
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2 hours ago, Checht said:

Which playstyle is more monotonous? 

The one where you have to power level a gun 6 times to make it worth using (Looking at you Amprex).  Or the fact that you have to literally farm for weeks and weeks to complete a focus tree?  These are chores,  I don't want to go clip my lawn with scissors, because people can't figure out how to work around a lawn mower 🙂

Also tell your camera to lay off the acid man. 🙂

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On 2018-06-10 at 4:08 PM, Uskradetat said:

Allow me to just preface this by saying I am expecting to get a bit of flak for this ranting/whining, but it has to be said.

Is this really necessary to have in the game? Warframes being able to spam nuke the entire map in 1-2 buttons with next to no setup is the single most Fun Destroying thing in this game. (next to limbo impeding your ability to actually shoot anything. rip. that's whole other topic) 

I want to be able to join public matches to play with other people, not stand around with my **** in my hand not able to contribute because there's a Saryn, an Equinox, a Banshee or a Volt etc nuking the entire map every 5 seconds. I find I'm spending more and more time running around looking for things to attack than actually attacking. 
This is just not an enjoyable experience in the least for anybody besides the person killing everything. It's not about the focus, affinity, damage or whatever. It's about the fact there is barely anything left for anyone else to do. And it's not a rare occurrence as we all know, we all run into these builds in every other match we join and they just suck the fun out of it. 

"would you rather the mission took 10 times longer?": I play this game for fun like most people, if a mission takes twice as long but is twice as fun, I don't see a problem with that, that's time well spent IMO. 

"Why not just host your own games then?": Convenience, more than anything. The ability to just jump into a random squad is great, rather than the hassle of finding 1-3 other people in recruitment and having someone leave cause its taking too long etc. I also don't like to host due to distance, generally makes other people lag if I host. 

"If you don't like it, just leave the match." Leave every other match? it's difficult enough to find squads half the time in my region, let alone finally getting into say an ESO for example, just to leave and re-queue because of one of these frames 

There is a very fine line to be drawn between both Fun and Efficiency in this game and I understand it's incredibly difficult to strike a balance. But this S#&amp;&#036; is ridiculous. 

I love this game, I'm only 375 hours in, and I can safely say this is one the best games I've played in recent years. But this nuking S#&amp;&#036; I've been gritting my teeth over since day one. Could it be toned back a tad?

Fix the focus gain first, then I'll listen.

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58 minutes ago, sehafoc said:

The one where you have to power level a gun 6 times to make it worth using (Looking at you Amprex).  Or the fact that you have to literally farm for weeks and weeks to complete a focus tree?  These are chores,  I don't want to go clip my lawn with scissors, because people can't figure out how to work around a lawn mower 🙂

I can agree that having to re-level weapons after Forma is rather pointless, but completing focus trees is really optional. Most of the time you only need a couple of useful nodes from a focus tree, the rest do not help much. If you want to complete it, you're just doing it for the sake of it. For example, once you've maxed out Energizing Dash, there's little need to gain more focus for Zenurik. Who's seriously using Void Static, Temporal Blast etc? All that said, it only feels like a chore if the gameplay is boring. What makes gameplay boring? I'll let you decide whether it's repeatedly pressing one button to win, or playing an action game like an action game.

Edited by Checht
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53 minutes ago, Checht said:

I can agree that having to re-level weapons after Forma is rather pointless, but completing focus trees are really optional. Most of the time you only need a couple of useful nodes from a focus tree, the rest do not help much. If you want to complete it, you're just doing it for the sake of it. For example, once you've maxed out Energizing Dash, there's little need to gain more focus. Who's seriously using Void Static, Temporal Blast etc? All that said, it only feels like a chore if the gameplay is boring. What makes gameplay boring? I'll let you decide whether it's repeatedly pressing one button to win, or playing an action game like an action game.

I disagree regarding the focus,  I'm doing it for the way bounds so I can go "have fun" playing with my super powerful leveled operator!  The fact that you have to put in "work" to go enjoy your powerful things and have fun with them is the essence of a loot game.  Taking out mechanics that make the work part more faster is a detriment.... If you completely changed the progression system to require less time,  then sure!

Let me flip around the argument in a different way.... My fun is defined by a great many things in this game.  I really like the melee system for example.  I recently build a Chroma leveled him up,  and have been running him melee only for awhile with just random various melee weapons just to go play with stances.  Before he was good enough to take him into high level content so I could "have fun" with him.... I had to go power level him a couple of times... I'll give you three guesses where I leveled him at (but you'd only need one).  And that's really my point here... IOW I've been playing for so long, I speed run things I wanna get through so I can go enjoy "new" experiences in the game.  After 1000 hours there are still tons and tons of stuff to go enjoy as well.  

The problem in a lot of these conversations is everyone "always" talks in absolutes.  These conversations rarely take into account the various subtleties of a varied game play experience, and different goals one may have in playing various missions.  I think if I had the experience that the OP had more than once a week (and I play for hours everyday) I would agree. 

Edited by sehafoc
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On 2018-06-10 at 9:38 AM, Uskradetat said:

I want to be able to join public matches to play with other people, not stand around with my **** in my hand not able to contribute because there's a Saryn, an Equinox, a Banshee or a Volt etc nuking the entire map every 5 seconds.

Can't beat em join em, if you had at least 1000 hours in this game you'd know that taking your time in this game to farm something is about as efficient as cutting down trees with a nail clip. More than half of this game's population are returning  players after months or years of break with years of experience. One day you'll look back at this post when you yourself are one and laugh or most probably avoid looking at it at all, someone probably mentioned this already but I'm posting it anyway. 

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I think I'm with the camp that sees Nuke-spam as basically a bandaid.

As much as Warframe is a loot grinder, there ARE games out there where the basic gameplay itself is so awesome I'd play the game JUST for the gameplay, and the rewards are just a bonus rather than the main incentive.

It's akin to all those metaphors about Journeys and Destinations; people nuke to get to the Destination quicker, because the Journey isn't fun.

I think this is the core of many of Warframe's issues, as much as there are many things to enjoy about Warframe's gameplay, it's just so dilapidated you'll quickly find yourself tripping over the cracks and growing frustrated and bored with normal gameplay, that you'd rather get it over with so you can enjoy the thing you actually came here for.
Like the issue with so many bandaids, they don't address the cause and merely fight the symptoms.

Whether or not nukes are necessary is merely questioning what colour bandaid you'd like to use, when the real issue is that basic gameplay is no longer fun.

DE needs to make the Journey more enjoyable, so people are less obsessive over getting to the Destination as fast and as easily as possible.

People may end up choosing not to nuke the place, simply because they are having THAT much fun punching mooks.  Imagine that.

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2 minutes ago, blazinvire said:

DE needs to make the Journey more enjoyable, so people are less obsessive over getting to the Destination as fast and as easily as possible

People may end up choosing not to nuke the place, simply because they are having THAT much fun punching mooks.  Imagine that.

I perhaps may be in that middle ground here.... but I think the progression system is stellar (with exceptions *cough cough focus cough forma),  Especially the first time through,  the quests and all of that stuff is great.  I've been playing since just before PoE and have about 1K hours in.  The game mechanics are really great, like super great, but it doesn't change the fact that at lvl0 even the best things in the game aren't that fun if you're already running sorties.  It's not like when you get a new frame it's like "Okay,  lets run the star chart again!".  Honestly,  thank god DE didn't make that choice to force people through the whole game for each character class like it is in many other games. You really just want to get it up to speed so you can run it at your level.   It has nothing to do with how fun the game is... the game is plenty fun.

Once more,  speed running to get your 20th nitain needed for vauban prime isn't necessarily a bad thing or saying the game isn't fun.  It's a choice to spend less time running an errand and more time doing something you enjoy.  The MAIN CHARACTERISTIC of all loot games is that you go and grind for loot.  I'm personally very glad that I have fast power options to do so.

The expectation that when people join a public party the role or frame they picked is going to be 100% relevant 100% of the time is kinda silly.  This is a side effect of having so many options for game play.   Those options for game play is specifically what makes Warframe special.
 

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14 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Fallacious 1, fallacious 2,  and stopped reading there. Expecting the game to be designed such that the random/pug mode is generally fun for all is not some "special snowflake" unreasonable expectation. Expecting that cheeze should remain in the game despite it reducing lots of players' fun, however, -is- an unreasonable expectation.

Cheese is subjective.

Your argument is invalid.

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27 minutes ago, blazinvire said:

I think I'm with the camp that sees Nuke-spam as basically a bandaid.

As much as Warframe is a loot grinder, there ARE games out there where the basic gameplay itself is so awesome I'd play the game JUST for the gameplay, and the rewards are just a bonus rather than the main incentive.

It's akin to all those metaphors about Journeys and Destinations; people nuke to get to the Destination quicker, because the Journey isn't fun.

I think this is the core of many of Warframe's issues, as much as there are many things to enjoy about Warframe's gameplay, it's just so dilapidated you'll quickly find yourself tripping over the cracks and growing frustrated and bored with normal gameplay, that you'd rather get it over with so you can enjoy the thing you actually came here for.
Like the issue with so many bandaids, they don't address the cause and merely fight the symptoms.

Whether or not nukes are necessary is merely questioning what colour bandaid you'd like to use, when the real issue is that basic gameplay is no longer fun.

DE needs to make the Journey more enjoyable, so people are less obsessive over getting to the Destination as fast and as easily as possible.

People may end up choosing not to nuke the place, simply because they are having THAT much fun punching mooks.  Imagine that.

I want to agree, but the main issue here is that first A) I do find the game play fun and B) I still use nuke builds.

This is basically because of DE's pay model, they have to make the grind unbearably annoying so that the pacing is slow otherwise no one would buy stuff with plat from the store.

Additionally, sometimes it's good just to feel powerful after you've already leveled everything and earned all the gear.

At that point it's sometimes nice just to walk in and destroy everything.

This isn't unique to warframe either.

I have many fond memories of WoW where I would be level ridiculous and take my new buddy to his first dungeon and wipe the dungeon clear without thinking in about 2 min where he would have been there for an hour with a full group as well as possibly not succeeded.

There is something to be said for the power fantasy of the game.

Additionally, I don't think if the pacing was kept up with like some of my favorite games of the past, that many people would be "as motivated" to open their wallets, and this is the crux of the free to play model they have. 

They need an awesome game yes, but it can't be "TOO" accessible.  There is so much content in this game sometimes it's just worth it to want to make the grind faster because of all the intentional time gates.

Additionally these time gates serve an additional function in making sure players have something to do, which they will complain about in it's absence.

I see your point clearly, I just don't think it's one that can fully apply here.

 

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You have your perfect option already. Play solo or make friends to play with. You play your game your way. Nobody is forcing you to play public match and they scale perfectly well imo so that when you play solo less enemies will spawn while not being too easy. Any game that shares instances will have this issue regardless. There is a reason why DE prefers bite sized game. You meet a team of total nuking god squad and sometimes you meet a normal humble tennos like yourself. That’s also the reason why this game, literally a game that’s about repeating the same 5-6 or so mission types over and over and over again is still loved by many people who have thousands of hours recorded. It’s the build diversity and build meta that’s constantly changing and the grind to get them in my hand. If you’re a shooter fan and you want every games to be the same pew pew simulator then I say no to that. That game you talking about has been around for 20 years and it got old like decades ago so we play Warframe. Cod make Zombie games, Battlefield added vehicles and airplanes etc. Games have to evolve. What you’re saying is basicaly Warframe shouldn’t have existed in the first place and DE must start from scratch again because it’s not your taste. Warframe is all about stripping off restrictions we had in other shooters and play free. For instance take Loki for example. He is one of the very early frames and almost not touched since. His invisibility will be insanly op in any other games. You feel so free in this game. I have weakness for stealth abilities in video games and this is what I dreamed of the entire time. Other people have their weaknesses and they have their frames for that. That’s what hooks people to this game. Thank you.

Edited by (PS4)johnsoigne
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As we all should know, Warframe is focused on the power fantasy, making people feel strong, but this is not the case. We just know most maps where this happens are lower scaled missions/modes. I barely play nuke everything frames, but I feel like I just need to tolerate it. It's not their fault they want to perform their role with maximum efficiency to get where they think they wanna get. Therefor there's multiple other things to accomplish than lets say run normal Onslaught for multiple hours where you will 9/10 times find someone nuking the whole room. Another problem might be you yourself, playing one game for long periods makes you see all it's flaws and flaws only, try something else for even few minutes and come back to do something else 🙂

Edited by Kierran
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