Map nuking. Is it really necessary? (minor rant inc)

[Klokwerkaos]

7 hours ago, sehafoc said:

I don't want to go clip my lawn with scissors, because people can't figure out how to work around a lawn mower

THIS.

[Klokwerkaos]

7 hours ago, Checht said:

I can agree that having to re-level weapons after Forma is rather pointless, but completing focus trees is really optional. Most of the time you only need a couple of useful nodes from a focus tree, the rest do not help much. If you want to complete it, you're just doing it for the sake of it. For example, once you've maxed out Energizing Dash, there's little need to gain more focus for Zenurik. Who's seriously using Void Static, Temporal Blast etc? All that said, it only feels like a chore if the gameplay is boring. What makes gameplay boring? I'll let you decide whether it's repeatedly pressing one button to win, or playing an action game like an action game.

Playing the game is really optional.  Progressing to any area is really optional.  Doing anything is really optional.

Your argument fails due to reducto ad absurdem.

You don't get to decide what is relevant for other players to have fun and what their motivations should be.

If a player wants to play warframe to hoard plat (even to the detriment of the trade community), they can do that.

If someone wants to be a completionist and unlock all focus, they can do that.

If someone wants to only use MK 1 weapons with no mods even if it slows their contribution to mission completion and puts the mission at risk, they can do that.

And of course, if someone wants to nuke the damned map, they can do that.

You don't get to decide what is allowed to be fun for other people.  Please stop trying to do that, it's really not OK.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2018-06-12 at 12:40 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Now I've played with everyone, to embers post nerf, Trinities post nerf, and Saryn in her prime. Despite that, I always had enemies to fight, and stuff to do in the mission. If you find yourself being trivialized, might a suggest you actually participate? You know, instead of complaining about it, try to you know, play the game? Cause enemies spawn wherever you go. From all corners of the map. If you are being emasculated in a public match cause you wanted to play with people for convenience, go to a part of the map by yourself. It works in every mission except exterminate, and you can safely kill things without worrying about your teammates using the powers and abilities they are so entitled to use. 

This, and in exterminate it seems nobody is ever crying about not hitting stuff.

People just want to exercise their e-peens on farms and get sad when their e-peen doesn't measure up.  It's stupid, ignorant and lazy considering they can play solo or invite only players who play the way they like or with frames they want.  

Edited June 13, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

DE's own words concerning the issue:

https://www.warframe.com/news/the-remote-observer-vol-14

• For the most popular perks like Energy Overflow, it means we're doing some deliberating. Right now we're deciding (based on the constructive contributions) what it means to call this Zenurik passive an 'essential' thing, and if something like it maybe shouldn't be locked behind a Focus school that the 4 other schools can't get. While we don't want Warframe to be infinite power spam: the game, we do want bonus energy regen systems choices to exist with investment and likely be decoupled from Focus at this point.

...

Thing is up to now they never really tackled overabundance of energy, instead nerfed nukes one by one around the fact they're spammable like any other ability. Anyway those words make their ambition clear, so it's not merely a discussion about different players tastes exclusively but also about if and how the current design goes along DE's idea(s) how the game's supposed to be played.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Klokwerkaos:

I don't want to go clip my lawn with scissors, because people can't figure out how to work around a lawn mower

Mowing a lawn is a chore. Warframe's supposed to be entertaining. Go figure.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Klokwerkaos:

It's stupid, ignorant and lazy

Said the person defending drinking bird gameplay.

[Klokwerkaos]

5 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Mowing a lawn is a chore. Warframe's supposed to be entertaining. Go figure.

And yet, somehow grinding forever to get what I want isn't my favorite thing in the world and I'd much rather be efficient about it.

I must be the idiot here.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Klokwerkaos:

And yet, somehow grinding forever to get what I wasn't isn't my favorite thing in the world and I'd much rather be efficient about it.

I must be the idiot here.

If certain game aspects aren't fun to you why not just let em be. As you put it yourself:

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Klokwerkaos:

Playing the game is really optional.  Progressing to any area is really optional.  Doing anything is really optional.

 

[Klokwerkaos]

1 minute ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

If certain game aspects aren't fun to you why not just let em be. As you put it yourself:

 

False equivalency.

You can't use an argument from reducto argument absurdem and pull it out of context as if it was fact to support your position if you want to be taken seriously.

Please consider learning debate.

[Buttaface]

7 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Cheese is subjective.

Your argument is invalid.

No it isn't.

Your argument is invalid.

You don't understand reduction ad absurdum, and misspelled it btw. Your posts are cram full of similar obvious errors.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Buttaface

[Kloaked]

2 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

False equivalency.

You can't use an argument from reducto argument absurdem and pull it out of context as if it was fact to support your position if you want to be taken seriously.

Please consider learning debate.

Translation: don't use my argument against me

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Klokwerkaos:

False equivalency.

You can't use an argument from reducto argument absurdem and pull it out of context as if it was fact to support your position if you want to be taken seriously.

Please consider learning debate.

first of all: i don't even see how this matters as despite the fact you used those words rhetorically they're still very true, are they not? Neither do i see how the new context changes the meaning dramatically...

but hey if you do wanna get down pettifoggery lane to distract from the actual discussion i might as well add:

1. it's reductio ad absurdum.

2. disproving the point "focus tree = optional" via reductio ad absurdum would have taken the form of rhetorically claiming the opposite of your own counter-theory (focus tree != optional) on an universal scale and thus (hopefully) debunking logical flaws (as in: a contradiciton to commonly accepted knowledge). "Playing the game is really optional.  Progressing to any area is really optional.  Doing anything is really optional." however doesn't even provide that, it's just a list of trivial facts, fit for relativisation of subsets (like focus tree = optional) at best.

[Streaky_Haddock]

I don't really look down on nukers, I'm not against them and I'm not really the type to get jealous, but recently when I was playing elite onslaught and the saryn/equinox both dropped and it was just me and some other dude, things got a lot more fun. We had to drop after a couple of waves because we couldn't handle it, but it opened my eyes to what I could be having if they weren't around.

It felt really bad, since I agree that nukers are kinda necessary for the grind, but... I don't like the playstyle. If I'm clearing an entire room in under a second, I'd ratheer it was because I was that g ood with my gun, blade and targeted powers rather than the huge damage one button press. 

[Kloaked]

5 minutes ago, Streaky_Haddock said:

I don't really look down on nukers, I'm not against them and I'm not really the type to get jealous, but recently when I was playing elite onslaught and the saryn/equinox both dropped and it was just me and some other dude, things got a lot more fun. We had to drop after a couple of waves because we couldn't handle it, but it opened my eyes to what I could be having if they weren't around.

It felt really bad, since I agree that nukers are kinda necessary for the grind, but... I don't like the playstyle. If I'm clearing an entire room in under a second, I'd ratheer it was because I was that g ood with my gun, blade and targeted powers rather than the huge damage one button press. 

This is more or less how I feel about it. The game is, even if DE didn't intentionally do it, designed around finding the fastest way to kill things so that you can get your (most of the time lackluster) rewards as quickly as possible. Nobody wants to keep doing the same thing over and over again, especially if they're only going after one drop, and RNG is not being kind that day. One way to remedy that is using a cheese/nuke/whatevertermyouwanttouse build to do it as fast and painless as possible. So I get it. I just don't find it fun when I'm on the end of not having enough time to invest in the grind and everyone has good Riven for their weapons and just rip apart everything before I can even press left-click.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Kloaked

[Streaky_Haddock]

I mean, I could make a nuke char if I want to. I have Saryn, Banshee, whatever, I could make the build. I just... really really don't enjoy the playstyle.  

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

If certain game aspects aren't fun to you why not just let em be. As you put it yourself:

 

Then if map nuking isn't fun to you, why not just let them be? (Oooooh, Your argument goes up in flames)

There's Solo and invite mode just waiting for you to use. Everyone else, (all thousands of them plus), Using map nukes for their intended purpose (De did put them into the game for a reason after all, shocker, they aren't going anywhere!) Their purpose being fun, and adding to the game. Making many many aspects of the grind more tolerable. 
There's more then just Focus. Leveling guns, getting the enormous amount of endo for mods, collecting said mods, getting prime parts, killing said hordes of enemies in a timely manner to not fail the objective (Interception, Mobile and Normal Defense, Survival, + Kuva Survival where to get Kuva, not relying on Life Support pods is necessary - Warranting a high damage class able to do large Aoe to bypass the terrible terrain. 

Your arguments are terrible, and thank Lotus you aren't in charge of gameplay cause it would be a much less enjoyable game. 

Every mission in the star chart can be completed solo, anything people are complaining about, is completely self inflicted when they CHOOSE to join a public match. 

Are you aware this game is a horde shooter? Keywords, Horde - Enemies in masse. Killing said horde is the enjoyment. De employs themselves enjoy Map Nuking. Why is it that I have seen many streams with a certain... Dev playing as Saryn? The defacto map nuker? Enemies already have counter measures to getting nuked. Every faction has their way of countering nukers. 

Seriously, everyone like you, is straight unfun cancer. - You don't get to dictate how other people play or control what they do just cause you and people like you refuse to play solo. You can ask in recruiting for people who want to play like you, to join you. But you can't force that on random people just cause you feel so entitled. 

[Elanair]

I hate map nukeing and still I do it out of necessity for the simple reason that it's the only 'sane' way I can farm my focus school without going insane or burning out on the damn game. I don't like it, I wish there was a different way but the alternative would take me a decade since I don't normally play nuke frames.

So yeah, it sucks, I hate it but out of necessity, what can you do? I'm bored as #*!% doing it and yet it's the only viable and efficient way of actually gaining some progress for my focus school.

I honestly wish there was another way but that depends on what solutions DE comes up with.

[Helljack84]

1 hour ago, Elanair said:

I hate map nukeing and still I do it out of necessity for the simple reason that it's the only 'sane' way I can farm my focus school without going insane or burning out on the damn game. I don't like it, I wish there was a different way but the alternative would take me a decade since I don't normally play nuke frames.

So yeah, it sucks, I hate it but out of necessity, what can you do? I'm bored as #*!% doing it and yet it's the only viable and efficient way of actually gaining some progress for my focus school.

Might as well add that a good set of focus lenses takes some time to collect and assemble. Then you chose your "favourite" (read most effective) loadout which you'll be running again and again and again...

I know it's supposed to be time gated content, but focus gain on normal nodes is pretty meh. So you suck it up, farm dozens of bounties, keep the foundry running for days and get your daily focus grind done asap, so you're finally allowed to use the rest of your arsenal.

[SinKershel]

On 2018-06-10 at 2:53 AM, Dawson1917 said:

Nuking is the only reason I can stand doing anything in this grindfest the single most enjoyable thing in this game for me.

You'll find that the sole reason people bring nukers is to compensate for the grind. Literally no sane person on earth wants to spend over 1,000 hours minimum on a game to gain access to its content, especially when that content provides only an hour or two of entertainment for every dozen hours of grinding.

When DE overhauls Warframe so players don't feel like they have to be as efficient as possible, then you'll see people actually use the frames they want to. But, as we all know, it's more profitable to pile grind upon grind onto players so they'll spend money on boosters and buy frames outright, and to then nerf everything that makes it easier for other players to access content and enjoy themselves (ie nukeframes).

Got nearly everything in the game in 300 hours. 3 frames missing. 3 frames i don't care about. 5 % of weapons left to build. Only thing I havent done is Eidolons so i'm missing Arcanes. And Rivens.

Never felt like I was grinding except when I was killing bosses for frame parts.

If you guys feel it's so painful because of the grind, why play Warframe ?

People keep saying you need 1000+ hours. How are you even playing this game ?

Maybe if ya learned how to be effective you wouldn't feel you NEED a nukeframe.

You say nuking is the most enjoyable thing in the game for you. What do you do when a Ember World on Fire any content bellow lvl 50 ? Because that's what my Ember do, suck the fun outta everyone. You just run around maps and that's your most enjoyable thing in the game ?

Or you leave when you ain't the one nuking ?

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

19 hours ago, Checht said:

Which playstyle is more monotonous? Repeatedly press 1 button to kill everything in and out of sight OR relying on aiming, parkour, and multitude of weapons in Warframe, complemented (and not replaced) by abilities?

While doing forty waves of Io or Hydron? Definitely using the weapons. Takes quite a while longer. 

[Checht]

13 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Playing the game is really optional.  Progressing to any area is really optional.  Doing anything is really optional.

Let's put it in context then. To reach endgame, or to be as effective as other endgame players, completing all nodes in a focus tree is optional.

[Klokwerkaos]

3 minutes ago, Checht said:

Let's put it in context then. To reach endgame, or to be as effective as other endgame players, completing all nodes in a focus tree is optional.

Define as effective as other endgame players, because frankly, NO, this argument is factually inaccurate at that level, because additional powers and resources make the character by definition more effective.

Additionally, still reducto ad absurdum, to reach endgame or be as effective as other endgame players you only need to be 8.  This is absurd and inaccurate but can be argued for.  Lets cut the BS, your argument is a "NO U!" argument.

[Checht]

1 minute ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Define as effective as other endgame players, because frankly, NO, this argument is factually inaccurate at that level, because additional powers and resources make the character by definition more effective.

Additionally, still reducto ad absurdum, to reach endgame or be as effective as other endgame players you only need to be 8.  This is absurd and inaccurate but can be argued for.  Lets cut the BS, your argument is a "NO U!" argument.

Reductio*

Easy, go to Mot, no Gear, as a Zenurik user, and get a frame without self-energy regen, do 3 runs:

1. All nodes enabled.

2. Temporal Blast/Void Static or any other nodes that almost no one uses.

3. Turn off Energizing Dash.

See how long you last. I bet there wouldn't be much of a difference between 1 and 2. 3 will be much shorter. That's what I mean by as effective as other endgame gameplay.

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

2 minutes ago, Checht said:

Reductio*

Easy, go to Mot, no Gear, as a Zenurik user, and get a frame without self-energy regen, do 3 runs:

1. All nodes enabled.

2. Temporal Blast/Void Static or any other nodes that almost no one uses.

3. Turn off Energizing Dash.

See how long you last. I bet there wouldn't be much of a difference between 1 and 2. 3 will be much shorter. That's what I mean by as effective as other endgame gameplay.

Ivara could do that easy 

[Checht]

36 minutes ago, GrimMonsoon said:

Ivara could do that easy 

Well, the fact that you need to cherry-pick a frame that can make-do without Zenurik kinda illustrate the point that frames IN GENERAL need Energizing Dash more than Temporal Blast/Void Static etc, doesn't it?

[DjKaplis]

Are feedback threads in which some players try to force their preferred play-style on others really neccessary? 

Your freedom and happiness shouldn't limit other people's freedom and happiness.