Map nuking. Is it really necessary? (minor rant inc)

[KIREEK]

DE's solution has always been timers

Timers to limit the efficiency or even halt it completetly (onslaught), still most missions, even with timers can be more profitable if the proper effort exists and there is always something you can do, it's insanely hard to destroy all enemies and all crates while progressing, not to mention picking up the loot, if you prefer actual killing, a survival is your best bet, otherwise you will have to suffice with healing, efficiency increasing tactics (opening up lockers, destoying crates, buffing allies damage or speed of movement) and other minor things like picking up loot or paying attention to possible statues or rare crates.

Efficiency breaks the new player progression, since the introduction of survivals +- things have been progressing towards that, invencibility stages, defending objectives for x time, go and open the blast door in sabotages, this so that super efficient players can't bring the efficiency to the newer players, resulting in less market purchases and less platinum bought.

Still, you can be efficient and make missions more worthwhile, DE's solution on the long term for this has been the introduction of new resources and things to lvl up so players can't stock on them and the result is to many currencies and to many things to grind.

Being slow and grinding so many things makes this game almost unbarable, which is why players want to do things as fast as possible.

I also note that asside from very exceptional players, you are more than capable of keeping up with the average player, regardless of the warframe they use, trust me it's possible

Edited July 16, 2018 by KIREEK

[sixmille]

Le 04/07/2018 à 23:35, (PS4)ZeroSection a dit :

This sounds like a really neat idea.  However, I think it would require a major pass on a lot of the bosses.  Too many of them rely on invincibility phases where your doing nothing periods of time.  If you took that away though every boss would become "The Sergeant" where breathing on the boss might kill him.  It would definitely require a rethinking and major rework of a lot of the bosses and boss battles in this game in general.  I still think it'd be better if bosses were basically bullet sponges, but that's for another thread.

 

I think a forth option would simply be:

- Add a line-of-sight check to all AoE abilities.

It would be a start anyway.  I think doing that would eliminate a lot of the grief that players feel when being robbed of their player agency by room wide nuke spam.  It'd force players to work for kills just like any other DPS frame i.e. Excalibur, Atlas etc.  If they had simply done this in the first place Ember wouldn't have had to eat such a heavy nerf to World on Fire.

Agreed, but a lot of it I think is also an incompatibility of play styles as well.  I tend to favor DPS frames like Excalibur etc that can't nuke a whole room instantly, or weapon heavy frames like Vauban, Chroma, Limbo, Mirage etc, who rely more on gun-play and buffs etc to get things done.  Coming into certain missions with the likes of Saryn or Equinox who can clear entire rooms without batting an eye already puts me at certain disadvantages. 

Now I've seen some of the main arguments in a lot of the threads dealing with caster nukes amounting, "your still getting the exp so who cares?" or "your epeen is just hurt cause your not top deeps", as well as what you've addressed.  However, I think whats really at the heart of it is the level of player agency we have to kill enemies now and the disproportionate effect that has on teammates.  Nuke frames with the current power creep we have generate a disproportionate agency effect that can rob agency from other players, and when a teammate  starts disproportionately getting robbed of their agency to act on enemies it can lead to having less enjoyment in a given mission.  The worst offenders right now that generate this effect, in my opinion, are Saryn, Equinox, and Volt to a lesser extent.  So when you combine that with the different goals people have in a mission, aka "wanting to get the damn thing over with and move on vs wanting to relax and just have fun", and "Nukes vs Guns/Buffs/CC" it creates a rift between players.

I still think there's a place for damaging abilities like room nukes, but I think without some kind of line-of-sight check/toning down the damage etc, or some other adjustments I don't think you'll be able to bridge the gap between play styles and goals.  Overall I don't think its healthy for the long term future of the game either. 

This argument is going to invariably keep happening until someone on the dev team does a balance pass on the frames and decides its a problem.

There are quite a lot of good and realistic solutions, some are more dramatic than others, but LoS checks and target caps are definitely strong contenders, unless DE is bold enough to go for the very much needed energy gains rework to stop the spamming.

[Teridax68]

I feel the issue with room clears is that they're desirable, and even fun to use when you get to kill a ton of enemies, but quickly become less fun for everyone involved when said room clears can be spammed repeatedly. That's the point where basically everything else falls apart, because there are no longer enemies to use your weapons or other abilities on. If you're not the one nuking everyone else, it also effectively means you have nothing to do. Because of this, I think the way forward should be to keep room clears, but to find a way to pace them, so that they can be used for high moments, just not all the time.

I think the general idea for one-button abilities could be to have some sort of charge mechanic: with this, you could press your button for some baseline effect, but it'd be only by charging the ability in some way that you'd get to clear a whole room with it. For example, building up Static Electricity, and otherwise using Volt's abilities in certain ways, could raise Discharge's damage significantly more, and the base damage could therefore end up starting out much weaker. Excalibur's Radial Javelin is a bit weak for a room clear, but having it expend the combo counter for room-clearing damage could similarly bring it up to par with the rest. Saryn already has an in-built charging mechanism with her Spore damage, and if Miasma popped all existing spores to deal damage instantly, proportionately to the spores' accumulated power, it would then have her redeploy spores later on, and have her pace her damage.

Another approach could also be to implement an alternate resource for certain abilities, namely channeled effects. Energy doesn't quite work for these because it's often possible to just channel indefinitely, especially if there are energy-restoring frames around (so basically Trinity). As with the above, being able to charge up a resource for these abilities, and having their activation drain said resource over time, could allow them to be much more powerful while in action, while still pacing out their use. This could work for abilities like Sound Quake, World on Fire, Mend/Main, Peacemaker, Exalted Blade, and so on.

Ideally, the net result is that these abilities should still be able to clear rooms (and, in fact, they could be made to clear rooms even quicker and at even higher levels than right now), but wouldn't be usable with the same degree of power at all times. This, in turn, should give everyone the time and opportunity to let their own other weapons and abilities shine. In the case of more caster-type frames, like Ember, Volt, or Mag, this could also be a good opportunity to buff their basic abilities, so that they'd still get to damage enemies effectively at higher levels without requiring a press-4-to-kill-everyone button. In the case of frames that happen to be on the weaker side, notably Ember and Mag, this could be an opportunity to buff them where it counts, by giving them more reliable access to power that is viable at all levels.

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

On 2018-07-06 at 2:56 AM, Avalean said:

I think that is one of the reason's I've always liked hybrid classes, or in the case warframes. If there's already someone doing a job, you can look for a gap and try to fill it. It's interesting that you mention Equinox, because to me her main appeal is that if there's someone nuking, I can switch to night form and cover other aspects of the team. If there's someone healing or slowing, I can switch to day form and buff damage or nuke. 

So yes, play styles are important. However, as I mentioned in my post, the play style angle of most people arguing that nuking is necessary is the efficiency play style. Most people are not nuking the whole map for fun. These are probably the same kind of people who like auto play in mobile games. Maybe it's a generation gap, but I cannot understand that mentality.

I'll give credit to Equinox as you actually have to work for it to pull the big numbers and her nuke isn't what defines her as she has other puzzle pieces to put together, i.e. the day/night forms you talked about.  However, I do think her big nuke is contributing to the problem.

As for the bolded I've chalked it up to instant gratification that's so prevalent in modern games.  I  cut my teeth on games like Socom 2 and Unreal Tournament multiplayer.  Fast forward a generation to MW2 and now we have all kinds of lights and ribbons pop up every time you just brush up against a enemy.  Fast forward again to today and now instead of K/D/A's we have Eliminations and "Solo kills", so little "Johnny ParticipationTrophy" can feel better about himself even though his real K/D/A is in the S#&$ter.  It is what it is.

17 hours ago, sixmille said:

There are quite a lot of good and realistic solutions, some are more dramatic than others, but LoS checks and target caps are definitely strong contenders, unless DE is bold enough to go for the very much needed energy gains rework to stop the spamming.

I really like the idea line-of-sight checks for certain nukes, and I never thought of target caps so thats interesting. 

You could also do something similar in MMOs with lots of nukes were the scale down the damage depending on how many mobs have been hit.  As an example

• The first enemy takes 100% of the damage of the nuke.
• The 2nd enemy takes 75% of the overall damage of the initial nuke.
• The next one takes 50% etc.

And so it would go right down the line.  Obviously this would need to scale a bit better than an MMO for Warframe as your hitting a lot more mobs at a time, but that's the general jist of the idea.

Another idea would be to add something like a "Warframe Burden."  I'm not think like Onslaught burden where you get locked out of your abilities for a few seconds, but more like a negative debuff stack system.  Each stack would give debuffs that add negative efficiency/duration/power strength the more you use big nuking abilities.  It would signify the strength of your nuke as something so powerful that your Warframe can't handle the strain with repeated use, but mostly it would just curb mindless spam.  Obviously stacks would have some sort of set duration or ways to make them fall off.  You could throw in an aura that reduces the effect as well if you want.

Combine anyone of those ideas with a line-of-sight check and I think we'd be working with something.  It seems better to tackle the problem on a macro level rather than an individual Frame level in my opinion.

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2018-07-06 at 9:25 AM, KIREEK said:

DE's solution has always been timers

 

Timers are not the answer to everything. Destiny 2 with timers on grenades? No thanks.

And on a daily basis I help lower players. Helping them grind levels on their weapons. Nuking enemies on banshee, saryn, nova, etc I go to Hydron with them, help them level whatever weapons/frames they want till they are actually usable in any real mission worth doing, then we go take said equipment in actually relative content. -Killed a gantulyst later that day. Having to slowly individually kill every enemy would not be fun, and (as you said) would make the game unbearable.

Nothing is wrong with nuking, in a horde shooter, with the basis and premise of the game is killing millions of Grineer. Killing nameless individual enemies isn't rewarding. It isn't meant to be. Killing the thousandth charger, crewman etc, giving some small resource. Eidolons and other enemies like them, are the way to handle this. Can't be simply trivialized with one ability and gone, but gives a hefty reward -Good mods, arcanes, and good standing.

Weapons already exist in the game that can fill the role of nuking. And there is a reason Saryn and others like her are so much more popular in the player base then saaaaay...... Zephyr. People do find nuking fun. But everyone complains about the several forma saryn/insert any good thing ever killing everything instead of forma-ing their equipment themselves.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2018-07-07 at 4:39 AM, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

I'll give credit to Equinox as you actually have to work for it to pull the big numbers and her nuke isn't what defines her as she has other puzzle pieces to put together, i.e. the day/night forms you talked about.  However, I do think her big nuke is contributing to the problem.

As for the bolded I've chalked it up to instant gratification that's so prevalent in modern games.

Hate to ruin your entire point,  but nothing about warframe is anything resembling instant gratification.
Case and Point? Mastery Rank locked equipment. Strongest weapons in the game locked behind having to grind countless other guns/frames in order to unlock the option to make them. Takes more then 422,500 mastery rank to have access to all the strongest weapons and equipment. Hate to break it to you, thats not a fast process.

I'll cut you some slack, since you are only mastery rank 5 or so. But you missed warframes having a 3 day+ build wait time, weapons/warframes needing mods, forma, and experience, and all the farming it takes to get to that point.
Maybe you missed that Serration, the most basic of basic mods, costs around 20,500 endo, and just shy of a million credits to max. Not to mention farming for corrupted mods, and their costs to max. None of this is handed to you. You get all of this in small portions. The smallest grind being the credits through the index.

Most Nuke frames are in the same boat that Equinox is. Takes more work then you realize to get them to the point they can nuke anything then low level enemies. Besides building them initially, then leveling them, then forma on forma to compensate for the loss in power strength, or stretch, cunning drift, and other range mods, plus exilus slot and all the leveling + building that is required for that.

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Saryn_Prime/t_30_3022400230_4-1-5-6-6-5-12-7-10-34-8-5-46-4-5-55-0-5-411-2-10-479-3-10-613-9-5-859-5-5_55-6-4-9-411-8-479-7-46-6-859-7-6-11-12-8-34-14-613-9_0/en/1-0-44/168460/0

Here is pretty much the standard Saryn build for you. Takes about 40,000 endo just for the one primed mod, then maybe 30k each endo for both blind rage, and transient fortitude. So about 100,000 endo just for this build. Leveling this Saryn up 4 separate times, then getting that exilus slot. Probably around 3 million credit cost, then the farming if you got Saryn prime from farming relics.

So stop pretending that you start the game up, and the game hands you a max level 3 forma-ed saryn prime with max level mods so you can go nuke everything you ever see. Sure, you can nuke low level enemies. That's why they are low level. But any real mission (level 75+) will quickly make nuking more and more ineffective as each faction starts to outscale you.

Warframe doesn't have instant gratification. It has a reward. It's one of the most grindy games I have ever played. But the more time you put into a frame/weapon/etc the stronger it gets in the end. And nuking enemies is people's reward for putting the time to get the mods, endo, and every other necessity to make their frame strong enough to do that. This is the case with everything in warframe. Weapons, Amps, Guns, Melee, Powers, The bonuses from Tenno Schools. (Which despite countless hours of farming I still havent finished 100%)
 

[(XBOX)MintyFreshMike]

On 2018-06-10 at 2:38 AM, Uskradetat said:

Allow me to just preface this by saying I am expecting to get a bit of flak for this ranting/whining, but it has to be said.

Is this really necessary to have in the game? Warframes being able to spam nuke the entire map in 1-2 buttons with next to no setup is the single most Fun Destroying thing in this game. (next to limbo impeding your ability to actually shoot anything. rip. that's whole other topic) 

I want to be able to join public matches to play with other people, not stand around with my **** in my hand not able to contribute because there's a Saryn, an Equinox, a Banshee or a Volt etc nuking the entire map every 5 seconds. I find I'm spending more and more time running around looking for things to attack than actually attacking. 
This is just not an enjoyable experience in the least for anybody besides the person killing everything. It's not about the focus, affinity, damage or whatever. It's about the fact there is barely anything left for anyone else to do. And it's not a rare occurrence as we all know, we all run into these builds in every other match we join and they just suck the fun out of it. 

"would you rather the mission took 10 times longer?": I play this game for fun like most people, if a mission takes twice as long but is twice as fun, I don't see a problem with that, that's time well spent IMO. 

"Why not just host your own games then?": Convenience, more than anything. The ability to just jump into a random squad is great, rather than the hassle of finding 1-3 other people in recruitment and having someone leave cause its taking too long etc. I also don't like to host due to distance, generally makes other people lag if I host. 

"If you don't like it, just leave the match." Leave every other match? it's difficult enough to find squads half the time in my region, let alone finally getting into say an ESO for example, just to leave and re-queue because of one of these frames 

There is a very fine line to be drawn between both Fun and Efficiency in this game and I understand it's incredibly difficult to strike a balance. But this S#&$ is ridiculous. 

I love this game, I'm only 375 hours in, and I can safely say this is one the best games I've played in recent years. But this nuking S#&$ I've been gritting my teeth over since day one. Could it be toned back a tad?

Fun? What is fun? I only play for the grind  🙂

[Buttaface]

On ‎16‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 5:50 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Hate to ruin your entire point, 

You didn't, just posted a wall o text straw man with some inaccuracies to boot. There are -plenty- of low MR weapons that have the killing power of much higher MRs. Add inexpensive rivens to that and newer players of MR8 and up (a week or two of targeted play sessions, less if assisted by a clan) that spend even a little $$ on the game can have those.

Three day build times on frames? That's nothing, certainly not evidence of it taking any real work to make a map nuking build.

No mods require maxing to be effective, and the benefits of maxing them as opposed to leaving them at 8-9 are a perfect case of diminishing returns. You act as if mods must be maxed in map clear builds. They needn't be.

There is some kernel of truth that a rank newbie without ANY assistance from web pages, youtube, wiki, clans or helpful players ingame would take significant time to make a nuke/crutch build, but I think that's unrealistic.

There is some kernel of truth that -some- high power nuking builds require resources that new players won't have, but many other powerful builds are very resource light. Popular Steam titles cost $50 or so, and a new player that put that into WF could very easily buy everything they need to create a near skill-free nuking build in their first week of play.

WF desperately needs some governors on map clear skills that other games have/had. Target caps, range limits, falloff, timers, restricted modes, LOS, skill nerfing, lots of possibilities. The state of the random game is just not much fun as it stands because of this, and the low average skill of the player base as a result is just another serious bad outcome.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Three day build times on frames? That's nothing, certainly not evidence of it taking any real work to make a map nuking build.

*Yawn* Nice try dude. 3 Days + Farming all the mods you need, + endo + credits. You're argument doesnt fly.
Also You kinda missed that I was counter arguing the point of Instant Gratification.

 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

You didn't, just posted a wall o text straw man with some inaccuracies to boot. There are -plenty- of low MR weapons that have the killing power of much higher MRs. Add inexpensive rivens to that and newer players of MR8 and up (a week or two of targeted play sessions, less if assisted by a clan) that spend even a little $$ on the game can have those.

A week or two huh? Yeaaaaa that's not instant gratification dude. Look up the definition of instant. 2 weeks of targeted assisted play time? With help? This couldn't be farther then instant gratification if it takes several hours by multiple people to get said items/capabilities.

 

 

2 hours ago, Buttaface said:

No mods require maxing to be effective, and the benefits of maxing them as opposed to leaving them at 8-9 are a perfect case of diminishing returns. You act as if mods must be maxed in map clear builds. They needn't be.

There is some kernel of truth that a rank newbie without ANY assistance from web pages, youtube, wiki, clans or helpful players ingame would take significant time to make a nuke/crutch build, but I think that's unrealistic.

Talk about fallacies. You really stretching logic thin here.
By your logic dude, Everywhere I go I should see mastery rank 3 players rocking their damaged serrations demolishing the ESO (Elite Sanctuary)

Mods Don't have to be maxed, but they do need a significant amount of Endo to be effective in the first place. Otherwise That nuking frame you are complaining about? Yea, it's not nuking anything significant with 15% more range, and 8% more power. (That, or you need to stop playing level 1 baby missions.)

And I'm constantly helping players. Every day on warframe I help my alliance, and my clan. They like having me around, for the soul fact, I can make things easy, regardless of it being Eidolons, or they just want to farm something quickly and have me nuke stuff so they can level fast. Most low level players, get one frame that is their main, till they play long enough to stockpile potatos, reactors, exilus, endo etc. And just yesterday, I helped them farm the index to get them the credits they needed for their Nidus.

You kinda lost sense with reality if intense play sessions of two weeks is considered "instant"

Nothing is wrong with Nuking, and if you want to see a case and point, there is this dying game called Destiny you can go check out. No worries, no nuking in that game.

[Helljack84]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

[...]

Mods Don't have to be maxed, but they do need a significant amount of Endo to be effective in the first place.

And I'm constantly helping players. [...]

Nothing is wrong with Nuking, and if you want to see a case and point, there is this dying game called Destiny you can go check out. No worries, no nuking in that game.

1. Correct. But once you maxed out a few mods you can turn every Warframe into a monster. Players have been getting stronger and stronger for a long period of time. At MR 5 you have access to Ignis and Atterax, you can now clear the starchart by holding down LMB or spamming your dedicated macro button. It takes at least (enhanced) sortie 2+ enemies to even make squads stick together, on most lower missions players just randomly dart off and go on a killing spree by themselves (yes, it's stupid but I meet a lot of double digit MR-players that don't have the slightest clue about xp modifiers). No, I don't feel like "I paid for it" justifies breaking the game.

2. Is that even enjoyable? Also lvling fast by nuking and getting carried all day is the main reason why you see so many inept players with mid-high MR. 

3. There's a lot wrong with nuking imo. When every single player in a squad can take out all enemies alone what's the point?

 

ps: Destiny is more about a failed business model, lies/deception and the backlash when you rip off your playerbase.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

3. There's a lot wrong with nuking imo. When every single player in a squad can take out all enemies alone what's the point?

ps: Destiny is more about a failed business model, lies/deception and the backlash when you rip off your playerbase.

2. It's more enjoyable for people who don't enjoy the leveling process and don't like having to relevel every time you forma an item.

3. What's the point? Go into an Elite Sanctuary and get all the rewards? Or a survival and see how long you can last?

Otherwise you get the benefits of getting rewards more quickly, letting players earn their power and feel accomplished making something good.

Also in regards to destiny, the combat just isnt fun lol. Hobgoblins case and point. Have a habit of healing themselves right as you are about to kill them.

[Helljack84]

4 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 What's the point? Go into an Elite Sanctuary and get all the rewards? Or a survival and see how long you can last?

ESO is a special case. It turns the burnout to 11 and invalidates everything but the nastiest nuke combos. It helps in showcasing faction imbalances (infested be like: nuke everything in 0,5 seconds or be locked out of abilities forever due to energy drain, then commence tenno tug-o-war) and is one of the few options if you want some high lvl enemies. 

Survival? With up-to-date equipment, heck even stuff that's one or two years old, you can last until the heat death of the universe.

[-CM-Harbinger]

On 2018-06-10 at 8:38 AM, Uskradetat said:

Allow me to just preface this by saying I am expecting to get a bit of flak for this ranting/whining, but it has to be said.

Is this really necessary to have in the game? Warframes being able to spam nuke the entire map in 1-2 buttons with next to no setup is the single most Fun Destroying thing in this game. (next to limbo impeding your ability to actually shoot anything. rip. that's whole other topic) 

I want to be able to join public matches to play with other people, not stand around with my **** in my hand not able to contribute because there's a Saryn, an Equinox, a Banshee or a Volt etc nuking the entire map every 5 seconds. I find I'm spending more and more time running around looking for things to attack than actually attacking. 
This is just not an enjoyable experience in the least for anybody besides the person killing everything. It's not about the focus, affinity, damage or whatever. It's about the fact there is barely anything left for anyone else to do. And it's not a rare occurrence as we all know, we all run into these builds in every other match we join and they just suck the fun out of it. 

"would you rather the mission took 10 times longer?": I play this game for fun like most people, if a mission takes twice as long but is twice as fun, I don't see a problem with that, that's time well spent IMO. 

"Why not just host your own games then?": Convenience, more than anything. The ability to just jump into a random squad is great, rather than the hassle of finding 1-3 other people in recruitment and having someone leave cause its taking too long etc. I also don't like to host due to distance, generally makes other people lag if I host. 

"If you don't like it, just leave the match." Leave every other match? it's difficult enough to find squads half the time in my region, let alone finally getting into say an ESO for example, just to leave and re-queue because of one of these frames 

There is a very fine line to be drawn between both Fun and Efficiency in this game and I understand it's incredibly difficult to strike a balance. But this S#&$ is ridiculous. 

I love this game, I'm only 375 hours in, and I can safely say this is one the best games I've played in recent years. But this nuking S#&$ I've been gritting my teeth over since day one. Could it be toned back a tad?

Is it necessary? i would say yes, after years of playing this game, i feel its part of the powerful tenno to be able to clear trash pritty fast, if you gonna shoot one enemy at i time, thats like destiny isnt it? after years of playing this game with thousands of hours i would say it is a MUST have in the game.

There are ofc some ppl who dont like it, but then you can always make a premade group/play with friends or clanmates/solo/etc. there is a lot of option for everyone. the problem is definitly not the mechanic but that ppl want different things, so lets not point fingers at the game 😛

I personally like efficiency in grp, so if ppl bring random frames or wrong auras, etc, for farming, i would definitly leave. and thats part of my preferance.

Warframe is *spoiler* a farming/grinding game, making it harder to farm is not anything that would help the game in any way.

Now consider this: 1. Hard to farm. 2.RNG. 3. Time consuming.

Sounds fun?

[Buttaface]

16 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

*Yawn* Nice try dude. 3 Days + Farming all the mods you need, + endo + credits. You're argument doesnt fly.

No, the straw man you are doubling down on doesn't fly and stopped reading there... dude.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

No, the straw man you are doubling down on doesn't fly and stopped reading there... dude.

Keep telling yourself that dude. Only strawman here is you. Unless you have an actual counter argument, you're just blowing in the wind.

[sixmille]

Il y a 23 heures, (PS4)UltraKardas a dit :

*Yawn* Nice try dude. 3 Days + Farming all the mods you need, + endo + credits. You're argument doesnt fly.
Also You kinda missed that I was counter arguing the point of Instant Gratification.

 

A week or two huh? Yeaaaaa that's not instant gratification dude. Look up the definition of instant. 2 weeks of targeted assisted play time? With help? This couldn't be farther then instant gratification if it takes several hours by multiple people to get said items/capabilities.

 

 

Talk about fallacies. You really stretching logic thin here.
By your logic dude, Everywhere I go I should see mastery rank 3 players rocking their damaged serrations demolishing the ESO (Elite Sanctuary)

Mods Don't have to be maxed, but they do need a significant amount of Endo to be effective in the first place. Otherwise That nuking frame you are complaining about? Yea, it's not nuking anything significant with 15% more range, and 8% more power. (That, or you need to stop playing level 1 baby missions.)

And I'm constantly helping players. Every day on warframe I help my alliance, and my clan. They like having me around, for the soul fact, I can make things easy, regardless of it being Eidolons, or they just want to farm something quickly and have me nuke stuff so they can level fast. Most low level players, get one frame that is their main, till they play long enough to stockpile potatos, reactors, exilus, endo etc. And just yesterday, I helped them farm the index to get them the credits they needed for their Nidus.

You kinda lost sense with reality if intense play sessions of two weeks is considered "instant"

Nothing is wrong with Nuking, and if you want to see a case and point, there is this dying game called Destiny you can go check out. No worries, no nuking in that game.

None of what you said makes sense. You help new players? So what. New players can be helped, nukes or not. And they'll learn more without that in the game. You need endo? Fine, sorties don't require any sort of nuking. Sanctuary? Doesn't need map clearing abilities at all.

But let's see the "benefits" from spamming map clearing abilities:

- You can save maybe 30s in a defense mission. If you play 6 missions a day you can go to bed 3 minutes earlier, a life changer I tell you.

- Someone does 95% of the damage, leaving crumbs to the rest of the team. The team can't play, they're bored, quit warframe.

- It's significantly harder to level up non map clearing warframes since 75% of the shared xp goes to weapons. Having a map clearing warframe is in most cases a hindrance for xp purposes.

- game has no stakes. If there's no risk of being overwhelmed, there's no danger. No danger = no fun. The devs can't create challenging content as long as nukes exist. DE needs to open up their design space by removing nukes, they're overly restrictive.

- Warframe is extremely easy. Keeping nukes in check would somewhat help with that. I don't remember the last time I lost a mission, even though losing is an important experience in video games. If the game doesn't force the player to question his past decisions, it doesn't force the player to step up his game and do better, and eventually, it gets boring.

All in all as long as nukes exist in their current state, warframe will stay that fun little game that bores the sh*t out of you after 3 months.

Edited July 18, 2018 by sixmille

[Haeen]

1 hour ago, sixmille said:

None of what you said makes sense. You help new players? So what. New players can be helped, nukes or not. And they'll learn more without that in the game. You need endo? Fine, sorties don't require any sort of nuking. Sanctuary? Doesn't need map clearing abilities at all.

Sorties require nuking if it is an exterminating mission type.  It also assists with defense/survival missions as it assists in clearing the waves more quickly, and assists in gaining life support  nodules.  New palyers can be helped without nukes, yes, but it also allows the missions to be completed more quicklyand safely in times where they may not be up to par, or encountering difficulties.

1 hour ago, sixmille said:

But let's see the "benefits" from spamming map clearing abilities:

A benefit is a benefit regardless of a quotation mark.

1 hour ago, sixmille said:

- You can save maybe 30s in a defense mission. If you play 6 missions a day you can go to bed 3 minutes earlier, a life changer I tell you.

Where do you draw your statistical data from exactly?  Killing enemies one byone utilizing a single shot rifle is going to be much slower than utilizing an AOE ability from volt.

If it takes 5 minutes (300 seconds) to clear a mission without AOE, but takes only 4minutes (240 seconds), this still means you've lowered the amount of time to clear a mission by 20% which is quite significant.  Particularly if we are considering doing more than 5 waves.  Speed is speed, the basis of your argument is essentially "well if it doesn't make the mission end instantly it doesn't matter.".  It does, and your hyperbole doesn't assist you any.

1 hour ago, sixmille said:

- Someone does 95% of the damage, leaving crumbs to the rest of the team. The team can't play, they're bored, quit warframe.

Really? Where do you draw this information? The majority of the time, the vastmajority of the time, new players quit warframe because it doesn't offer much guidance. Region chat still is riddled with people wondering how to get to the Mars waystation.

1 hour ago, sixmille said:

- It's significantly harder to level up non map clearing warframes since 75% of the shared xp goes to weapons. Having a map clearing warframe is in most cases a hindrance for xp purposes.

This is false and demonstrate a lack of understanding on how affinity gain works.

Acquisition

Warframes and weapons gain Affinity for several types of actions, detailed below. Unless specified otherwise, all Affinity gained uses the same split: 25% of the amount goes to your Warframe and 75% of the amount is divided evenly among all equipped weapons (25% each for three, 37.5% each for two, or the full 75% if only one is equipped).

• Kill an enemy with a Warframe ability. All of the Affinity goes to the Warframe.
• Kill an enemy with a weapon. Half of the Affinity goes to the Warframe and half to the killing weapon.
  • Be near an allied Tenno when they kill an enemy. When within 50 meters of an ally when they kill an enemy, you gain the same total Affinity, distributed as specified above. This doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by the killing player, and doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by other nearby allies. This applies to Archwing mode with much larger ranges for shared affinity..

"But wait Aegni, its equally distributing the affinity to everything I have."

This is true, but this is off set by the fact that the more allies you have, the more enemies are spawned accordingly. This results in a net gain for you and your teammates in terms of exp gain, which is why ESO is so very good for leveling weapons while a Saryn is present.

Furthermore, if you are trying to specifically level a warframe and your weapons are level 30, why are you even bothering to equip anything besides a good melee/secondary/primary?   It sounds terribly ignorant of you to cry foul when the system is designed to enhance your exp gain, and there are ways for you to influence the affinity distribution.

 

1 hour ago, sixmille said:

- game has no stakes. If there's no risk of being overwhelmed, there's no danger. No danger = no fun. The devs can't create challenging content as long as nukes exist. DE needs to open up their design space by removing nukes, they're overly restrictive.

This is an example of bad deductive reasoning actually.

The game has no stakes because the majority of the time, you are drastically over leveled/geared for the content involved.  Generally, the enemies in which theywill begin presenting some difficult is around level 100.

An enemy at level 30 will die just as easily to a galatine prime using maxed primedpressure point, as Gram utilzing maxed prime pressure point.  The TTK is minimal by comparison because said enemies aren't scaled according to how well you are geared. 

Now, when we do hit appopriately leveled enemies, the map nuking ability becomes significantly limited to only a handful of frames, and enemies at this level can generally kill these frames within a single shot or two if the player is not skilled or uses appopriate strategy.  Look at that a fear of being overwhelmed/killed.  Developers can make whatever challenging content they desire, the idea they are limited by map nuking in anyway is a facetious argument at best.

1 hour ago, sixmille said:

- Warframe is extremely easy. Keeping nukes in check would somewhat help with that. I don't remember the last time I lost a mission, even though losing is an important experience in video games. If the game doesn't force the player to question his past decisions, it doesn't force the player to step up his game and do better, and eventually, it gets boring.

Games become boring due to a lack of content, not due to the amount of failure which maybe involved. Player's don't particularly care about the difficulty of the game, they care more for the completion of the goal regardless of the method involved. People actually prefer it when the goal can be achieved more easily. The desire to be challenged stems from players who are veterans, who have already accomplished the goal and now seek another one.  In this case, difficulty.  To which I suggest playing the endless missions as they do provide appopriate difficulty once the enemies scale accordingly.

1 hour ago, sixmille said:

All in all as long as nukes exist in their current state, warframe will stay that fun little game that bores the sh*t out of you after 3 months.

You can say that for yourself, but do not speak for anyone else.  Psychologically, games are boring when they run out of content, not due to the difficulty involved. Games that are easy can be just as entertaining as games that are difficulty. Boredom=lack of content.

 

 

 

 

[LegacyDM]

I agree with the OP. Elite sanctuary is just not fun nor challenging when volt, or Saryn, is destroying everything. The last elite sanctuary I did Saryn had around 3k kills in 3-4 rounds (don't remember) to my pathetic 300 or so? Makes me feel inadequate and like I'm not contributing. All they do is just stand in the middle and aoe everything. the big problem with this game is the huge imbalance between frames. Some frames just destroy everything while others have to work for it. How can I compete on the sanctuary scoreboard with Nezha or wukong if volt just decimates and entire map compared to my killing things one by one.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

56 minutes ago, LegacyDM said:

I agree with the OP. Elite sanctuary is just not fun nor challenging when volt, or Saryn, is destroying everything. The last elite sanctuary I did Saryn had around 3k kills in 3-4 rounds (don't remember) to my pathetic 300 or so? Makes me feel inadequate and like I'm not contributing. All they do is just stand in the middle and aoe everything. the big problem with this game is the huge imbalance between frames. Some frames just destroy everything while others have to work for it. How can I compete on the sanctuary scoreboard with Nezha or wukong if volt just decimates and entire map compared to my killing things one by one.

Your account seems suspicious. a Warframe Initiate doing Elite Sanctuary? If you're being legit, then no wonder you feel inadequate. Cause you 100% are.

Most people, (you including) don't get that warframe shares many mmo aspects. And a Saryn who's higher level then you will trivialize things, while you struggle to kill anything. Think of a level 90 Character (Basically 3 forma Saryn) in any mmo would trivialize anything for a newby to the game. I.E. you, since you havent gone up a single mastery rank at the time of this post. But sorry, You don't have the right to complain that somebody who wanted to do the best they could, did exactly that. I'm so sorry that you got decent squadmates and got farther then you reasonably should have. Let me throw you a pity party, that you can't dictate how well other people do, or how play the game. I'm so sad for you. --Go play solo dude. You get to do 100% of the work, or go grab friends who think like you.

A suggestion for you? Don't post on smurf accounts, or alternatively, play solo and learn to appreciate good teammates. Cause you are an extremely entitled individual if you think you choose what people can and can't do.

[LegacyDM]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Your account seems suspicious. a Warframe Initiate doing Elite Sanctuary? If you're being legit, then no wonder you feel inadequate. Cause you 100% are.

Most people, (you including) don't get that warframe shares many mmo aspects. And a Saryn who's higher level then you will trivialize things, while you struggle to kill anything. Think of a level 90 Character (Basically 3 forma Saryn) in any mmo would trivialize anything for a newby to the game. I.E. you, since you havent gone up a single mastery rank at the time of this post. But sorry, You don't have the right to complain that somebody who wanted to do the best they could, did exactly that. I'm so sorry that you got decent squadmates and got farther then you reasonably should have. Let me throw you a pity party, that you can't dictate how well other people do, or how play the game. I'm so sad for you. --Go play solo dude. You get to do 100% of the work, or go grab friends who think like you.

A suggestion for you? Don't post on smurf accounts, or alternatively, play solo and learn to appreciate good teammates. Cause you are an extremely entitled individual if you think you choose what people can and can't do.

Wow such toxicity. Im not posting on a smurf account. I just never bothered with forums until now even though I've been playing this game for over a year. 

I just completed round 8 with no problems. Guess what I was the one reviving people and didn't die once. My primary is Nezha with a very strong warding halo and melee selection that tears lvl 100 gunners apart. I have a heavily modified golden boy build I developed myself. Anyways, I don't need to justify my skill, mods, or build to you. All I'm saying is there's something fundemntally wrong when half the frames just take no skill to stand there and nuke a map when the other half actually have to work for a living. I'm not dictating how people should play, I'm stating the obvious in the hopes DE will listen and buff the lesser frames to be on par with the nukers. i don't advocate for nerfs but the em balance between nukers and trash frames is rediculous. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by LegacyDM

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Aegni:

Sorties require nuking if it is an exterminating mission type.  It also assists with defense/survival missions as it assists in clearing the waves more quickly, and assists in gaining life support  nodules.  New palyers can be helped without nukes, yes, but it also allows the missions to be completed more quicklyand safely in times where they may not be up to par, or encountering difficulties.

"Assists" is somewhat of an understatement, wouldn't you say? More like "trivializes the mission to a completely braindead one-button-press cookie clicker style pseudo-activity". But even then: "Required" is something else. Required it is arguably only in ESO, i blame borked efficiency drain. The latter is probably just a testing ground for OP gear / skills anyway.

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Aegni:

The game has no stakes because the majority of the time, you are drastically over leveled/geared for the content involved.  Generally, the enemies in which theywill begin presenting some difficult is around level 100.

The dullness of cheese tactics doesn't change regardless of enemy level, tho. Sure, from certain levels some team coordination becomes useful to not get one shot once in a while but really that's about it. Sorties, nightmare raids and ESO has/d enemies within said range: All a joke. And even way back when going 2 hours+ into endless was a thing: That still only meant pressing your win button over and over, one as Loki, one as Trin, some Nuker, etc... lurking in some sewer. Exciting and versatile gameplay indeed.

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Aegni:

Psychologically, games are boring when they run out of content, not due to the difficulty involved.

Don't you think pressing the same button over and over for 20 minutes because it's META and easily possible could play into that boredom? Or watching how others do it while you feel completely useless?

The game doesn't have to be extremely hard to be enjoyable sure, but as it is it hardly even resembles a game anymore imo, because a game can be lost usually and the thrill is to avoid that.

(btw still thinking nukes aren't the problem in themselves but rather the ability to spam them 24/7 due to endless energy)

Edited July 19, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

19 minutes ago, LegacyDM said:

Wow such toxicity. Im not posting on a smurf account. I just never bothered with forums until now even though I've been playing this game for over a year. 

 

Toxic? Hardly. Then explain to me, why Your warframe account says that you are Mastery Rank 1. You have to realize, it is highly suspicious for you to talk, being the lowest Mastery Rank possible despite playing for over a year.

For all I know dude, you are a level 1 Excalibur wondering why people are outdamaging you when fighting level 70 enemies.

Also, You never said that Warframes should be buffed in your previous post. And While certain frames are strong, they take work to build. Chroma, Nidus, and several other frames can do ridiculous amounts of damage, even more then Saryn. But they take work to build, forma etc. Saryn's playstyle is simple, But it takes work and time grinding for Saryn to trivialize level 70 ESO when they have double the armor and health as a regular 70 enemy. Have you seen an Ember lately? Cause every time people complain, inevitably things get nerfed so hard they are functionally unusable. Ember was the last to get the nerf bat, and I haven't seen a single player as Ember in about.... Months??? Ember was the last victim of people crying nerf, and My 4 forma ember prime is collecting dust on the shelf functionally useless.

 

 

2 hours ago, LegacyDM said:

How can I compete on the sanctuary scoreboard with Nezha or wukong if volt just decimates and entire map compared to my killing things one by one.

Also small other tidbit for you. Different frames work differently. Wukong can't nuke a map, but he is march harder to kill then most other frames. He has 2 abilities that actively prevent death, while Saryn is a dedicated dps frame. You are basically playing a tanky class, wondering why you are getting out damaged. Nezha is more of an all around frame as well. Having Crowd control as well as other abilities. Saryn can't cc like Nezha can, as in nowhere near as Tanky as Nezha. If Saryn doesn't do good amounts of damage, she doesn't have a reason to exist. She isn't a cc, tank, or utility frame.

The Game balance wouldn't be good, if every frame could do the same amount of Damage. Like a Trinity being able to clear rooms, and deal as much damage as a dps frame.


 

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

You have never nuked untill you have max range concentrated arrow with hunter munitions. 

😀

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 minute ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

"Assists" is somewhat of an understatement, wouldn't you say? More like "trivializes the mission to a completely braindead one-button-press cookie clicker style pseudo-activity". But even then: "Required" is something else. Required it is arguably only in ESO, i blame borked efficiency drain. The latter is probably just a testing ground for OP gear / skills anyway.

You could make that same argument about almost anything in warframe btw. There is a warframe for literally everything, and most frames can "one-button-press cookie clicker style pseudo-activity".

Defense mission? Afk near the cryopod as a frost. Reapply your Frost bubble every so often, just make sure you got energy. Frost Globes stack indefinitely, and even absorb enemy damage. Stay near a cryopod and just spam globe while your team does the rest. Alternatively, you can go Vauban, Khora, Absorb build Nyx, Limbo, Gara, Banshee etc.

People using abilities isn't the problem. Your attitude about it is the problem. People like and want different things. And most meta frames have one or two abilities they can use to trivialize a particular mission type.

Trinity/Harrow trivializes any energy need or any team based mission.
Ash, Loki, Ivara trivialize any spy mission with one ability.
Nova, Equinox, Loki, Octavia, Vauban trivialize any defense survival or basically any other mission/raid with CC
Strong Boss? Inaros, Valkyr, Nyx, Wukong, and Chroma trivialize bosses with their near immortality. Chroma's vex armor and Elemental Ward Trivialize eidolons as he two shots their limbs.

Hell, Limbo even trivializes level 9,999 enemies with void plain immortality.

You don't have a problem with nukers. You have a fundamental problem with the entire game and nearly every Warframe. But you need to come to terms that the reason the game is so popular, is because people are allowed to use abilites so freely. You would hemorrhage the entire game if you took the power freedom that everyone in Warframe has gotten used to, and changed it.

The devs are actively encouraging energy spam too. They said awhile back every Tenno school would have an energy passive like Zenurik. Turns out, people like being powerful space Ninjas that can play an alternative playstyle to guns. Sorry you don't like how the warframe powers work, But it's not going anywhere, when it's one of the funnest parts of warframe.
 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

People using abilities isn't the problem. Your attitude about it is the problem. People like and want different things. And most meta frames have one or two abilities they can use to trivialize a particular mission type.

Maybe you're right. Then the addition of a "game" mode would be nice, like, with an actual energy economy, dynamic / meaningful enemy ancounters, having to use everything at your disposal that you worked so hard to assemble, with actual co-op gameplay and some sense of challenge / reward... Like, pretty much any other action game ever. Or yeah, stealth gameplay in which you have to play... stealthy o_O. Avoid being seen without just pressing an "invisible" button over and over (image any "real" stealth like Metal Gear game working that way...). Yeah that'd be nice in my book. Like i said, for all i care make it a seperate game mode like nightmare, i don't even want special rewards... But yeah, never gonna happen anyway. They somewhat hinted at that by adding a cooldown in ESO but it's not even a drop on the hot stone really...

I still enjoy Warframe and it's style after all these years. I think it has great potential to be more than a guilty pleasure / button happy pasttime if only the META wasn't so awfully dull... and people will always mostly resort to that simply because they can... But we at least got these forums to articulate that frustration ;).