How I feel about Ember, and My Concept Her a New 4

[Jin_Lightning]

I see a lot of topics about Ember. For a long time, I never really knew why, until I dove into playing her hard. I can sort of see what some people are talking about, but calling her trash? That's too much.

But something I can relate to, is the issue of World on Fire. Trying to explain what I personally don't like about WoF is difficult, but I'll try.
Having the ability reduce in range, but increase in damage as it goes on is interesting, but I believe Ember isn't durable enough to benefit from this.
Yes, you could constantly Bullet Jump and dodge, but when you spend your time doing JUST that, you've stopped playing the game.
Other frames that need to get in close, looking at their stats, you can see they were built for it.

Frames like Rhino with his high shields.
Frames like Ash, with above everage health and armour.
Frames like Valkyr with her incredibe armour.
Frames like Inaros who's health values are astronomical.

 

This doesn't even include their abilities, and how they boost survivability.
Ember has above average shields. base health, and not very saticfying armour.

Again, this is just how I personally feel.

So, here's a small rework for Ember.

Her first three abilities and her passive remain the same, as this only applies to her forth.

World on Fire is replaced with something not done in Warframe yet, and I feel having it for Ember would be new, fresh, and unique.
I'll just call it Empower for now, name pending.

What this will do, is give her other three abilities a massive boost in everything. This would be a toggle ability, and have an evergy drain.

Fireball will become a conial blast of Fire, causing incredible damage.
Accelerant now allows fire damage to melt armour, letting her already high damage potential to get put to better work.
Fire Blast now not only does the ring and the huge wave, but in addition to that, places a World on Fire in a radius around the ring as well.
Standing in the ring boosts all outgoing fire damage, and casting Fireball or Accelerant causes another of those huge fire waves to spawn.
Casting Fire Blast inside it refreshes the duration.

I think this is a fantastic idea to keep World on Fire, but not off of Ember herself, letting her play however she wants, without forcing point blank range on people to get the damage she needs.

What do you guys think?

Edited June 10, 2018 by Jin_Lightning
Fixed a few typos and clarified that Empower is a toggle.

[Rin-senpai]

now its perfect... DE do a great job with Ember rework...

[Evultis]

30 minutes ago, Jin_Lightning said:

Frames like Ash, with above everage health and armour.

Ash (non-Prime) has 65 armor and 150 base health, 100 shield, with 1.15 sprint and 100 energy.

Ember (also non-Prime) has 100 armor, 100 base health, 100 shield, 1.10 sprint and 150 energy.

Between the non-prime versions you have higher health and sprint with Ash. Ember has armor and energy. Armor reduces the damage done to health, and energy can be used with Quick Thinking to act as additional health (also affected by armor). The difference in sprint speed, while numerically present, is insignificant unless a sprint speed mod is being used. Shield values are the same so no difference there. How long does Ash's higher health last compared to Ember's more durable yet average health? This seems more or less equal to me, with slight advantage to Ember.

 

Ash Prime has 150 armor, 150 health, 100 shield, 1.20 sprint and 100 energy

Ember Prime has 125 armor, 100 health, 125 shield, 1.10 sprint, and 150 energy

This time, Ember has the advantage in shields and energy, but loses in health, armor, and sprint. At this point the change in sprint is noticeable, if you use a sprint speed mod at all, otherwise neutral point. Numerically, Ash wins in armor, right? The thing is, armor looses efficiency the more there is, so there is less difference between relatively close numbers. Excal and the prime have 25 points of difference (the same amount here, but at higher base values), totaling to... ~2.5% more damage reduction. While Ash does have more armor, that does not mean as much as it did on the non-Prime versions, where ember had the lead of 35 points and at lower base values than the primes. Ember still has the advantage with energy, but also shields now, as mentioned at the beginning of this section. Both of these give their own survivability that further offsets Ash's advantages.

Ember's stats are fine. Use Accelerant, it can stun for a reason. Use Rage or Hunter's Adrenaline for energy if that's your problem. While World on Fire is impressive, don't lean on it like a crutch.

[Jin_Lightning]

Ah, fair point, I did have Ash Prime in mind when I said that, my bad.

My point of Ember's stats are her playstyle doesn't seem reflected on her stats, as shields don't reduce damage, just prevent it like a second healkth bar. For a frame that needs to be in close, I think health and armour are more important, or you have an ability that mitigates damage. Excalibur doesn't have any realy standout stats, maybe armour, but most people don't have issues with staying alive with him, and he also lacks an ability to mitigate incoming damage, unless we're talking about his 100% blocking via Exhalted Blade.

Again, this is just what I've observed from seeing people play Ember.  Hey, it could jsut be every Ember player I've seen just isn't good, that's possible, but I don't think that's the case.

And of course, there's Rage/Hunter's Adrenaline and Quick Thinking, and those mods are incredible, I don't think they should be necessary. Quick Thinking I'm mostly talking about there.

This is just how I feel, I'm not talking down to anyone who disagrees. World on Fire just feels...off, and I can't really put my finger on why, save for the need to hug the enemy. Even back when Ember had Overheat, it still felt weird.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Jin_Lightning
Fixed typos. Man, typing is hard!

[RealPandemonium]

21 hours ago, Jin_Lightning said:

Ah, fair point, I did have Ash Prime in mind when I said that, my bad.

My point of Ember's stats are her playstyle doesn't seem reflected on her stats, as shields don't reduce damage, just prevent it like a second healkth bar. For a frame that needs to be in close, I think health and armour are more important, or you have an ability that mitigates damage. Excalibur doesn't have any realy standout stats, maybe armour, but most people don't have issues with staying alive with him, and he also lacks an ability to mitigate incoming damage, unless we're talking about his 100% blocking via Exhalted Blade.

Again, this is just what I've observed from seeing people play Ember.  Hey, it could jsut be every Ember player I've seen just isn't good, that's possible, but I don't think that's the case.

And of course, there's Rage/Hunter's Adrenaline and Quick Thinking, and those mods are incredible, I don't think they should be necessary. Quick Thinking I'm mostly talking about there.

This is just how I feel, I'm not talking down to anyone who disagrees. World on Fire just feels...off, and I can't really put my finger on why, save for the need to hug the enemy. Even back when Ember had Overheat, it still felt weird.

You're not supposed to get hit often, and Ember doesn't have to get close to kill enemies (although she can.)  

Excal can permablind the whole map tile, and Slash Dash makes you invulnerable during the animation.

Most Ember players are really bad.  People seem to misunderstand what she's all about and a lot of people use stupid youtube videos for build and playstyle.

I don't even use any defensive mods in Sorties and ESO.

WoF was really bad in 2013.  It's been buffed relentlessly since then and IMO is at its best, design wise, right now.

Edited June 12, 2018 by RealPandemonium

[GinKenshin]

Well if you’re gonna addresss the problem which is WoF killing everything low lvl but the ability still does just that....you didn’t do a good job fixing the problem 

 

  If they wanna fix WoF then they need to change it entirely, the concept is what’s flawed here, they tried the same thing with Ash’s BS rework and they themselves said it was op, ember is just that with low lvl mobs 

 

  And let’s not forget how useless her 1st still is because the charge time takes forever and iirc isn’t affected with natural talent (even if it is, there’s no point using a mod for just her 1st) and her 3rd giving a dmg buff which need you to stay still, and giving the same if not worse cc than her 2nd, and I still don’t get why her 3rd isn’t affected by range mods

[Vance.Stubbs]

I've been maining Ember since closed beta and I can tell that she is in a terrible state now, especially compared to post-rework Saryn which now does Ember's job times better with much less effort. Which is a shame for me, really, as I enjoy pyromaniac-themed characters in my gamez.

Thread has already been swarmed by forum pseudo-pros, claiming that "she is perfect" and "most Ember players are just bad", which is typical, however it doesn't change the fact of Ember bad performance.

As I've said, the main problem with Ember now is very little effort-to-payoff ratio: I regulary take her to Sories/Elite Onslaught/high level Bounties and do fine (if you can call it fine), however it is obvious for me, if I used Saryn, Nidus, Excalibur or any other great DPS-frame, I'd do much better with less micro.

Take Saryn, for instance: you have great defense (high HP and armor, molt), great mobility (molt again), good CC (molt once more, Miasma stun), extremely great DPS: spores and miasma literally melt anything up to absurdly unplayable enemy levels.

Now, what about Ember? Low defense: (mediocre armor and HP, no defensive abilites), average mobility (nothing to stand out), good CC but only if you spend one slot for Fire Quake and use abilities like 3-4 times as often compared to Saryn (have to stun every single group of enemies with Accelerant which does no damage and rely on RNG Firequake hitting right targets), and, most importantly, poor DPS due to enemy armor scalling and enemies' fire damage resistance (Corpus mainly). All of which has led me to change my gameplay from a "Combat Mage" to "Self Buffer" with Flash Accelerant and good weapon.

I am not happy with that and advocate for a full rework for Ember:

1) Fireball must be just better. It's trash. The only redeeming factor of it is forced Heat Proc and maybe one-handed action, which allows it to be used during reload. 

2) Accelerant is her best ability and is good as it is. Wouldn't mind it's energy cost reduced to 40~ though.

3) Fire Blast is horrible and looks like a placeholder ability from a PS1 game. Should be reworked to either some sort of a self-buff or scalling offensive ability what melts armor and other stuff. 

4) WoF: since we're getting rid of "press 4 to win" I woundn't mind it to be reworked to something completely diffirent: from "exalted flamethrower from her hands" to another Miasma/Avalance clone. If it stays as it is, Fire Quake should be integrated by default (instead of wasting the slot to make ability good on high levels) and its bonuses must be something else.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Vance.Stubbs

[ShortCat]

On 2018-06-10 at 11:11 PM, Jin_Lightning said:

World on Fire is replaced with something not done in Warframe yet, and I feel having it for Ember would be new, fresh, and unique.
I'll just call it Empower for now, name pending.

What this will do, is give her other three abilities a massive boost in everything. This would be a toggle ability, and have an evergy drain.

I like this general idea of selfempowering, not sold on specific skill imrovements you suggest.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Vance.Stubbs:

Now, what about Ember? Low defense: (mediocre armor and HP, no defensive abilites),

good automated Cc adding to it that's easily the best thing for rage/qt tanking in the game

average mobility (nothing to stand out),

except for the fact that you're spreading fire to everything you pass 

good CC but only if you spend one slot for Fire Quake and use abilities like 3-4 times as often compared to Saryn (have to stun every single group of enemies with Accelerant which does no damage and rely on RNG Firequake hitting right targets),

Believe it or not but WoF has fire status by default

and, most importantly, poor DPS due to enemy armor scalling and enemies' fire damage resistance (Corpus mainly). All of which has led me to change my gameplay from a "Combat Mage" to "Self Buffer" with Flash Accelerant and good weapon.

what's not really an issue since yeah, buffs indeed. Dbuffs rather, what makes it more then "self buffs"

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Vance.Stubbs:

I've been maining Ember since closed beta

Really now, did you.

[Vance.Stubbs]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 

Really now, did you.

good automated Cc adding to it that's easily the best thing for rage/qt tanking in the game

Manual hard CC > automated RNG CC, it not even arguable. Also the fact you're suggesting to use Rage + QT in 2018 for Ember makes me question taking you seriously.

except for the fact that you're spreading fire to everything you pass/Believe it or not but WoF has fire status by default

Too bad Heat CC proc doesn't work against non-human enemies and has cooldown unlike "hard" CC effects from abilities

 what's not really an issue since yeah, buffs indeed. Dbuffs rather, what makes it more then "self buffs"

Except nobody but other Embers uses Heat damage by themselves, and Flash Accelerant ruins many builds like turning full Toxin anti-corpus build to Gas

 

So yeah, another "knowledable" PS4 fellow coming to forums to pwn some noobs and tell them to "git gud". How surprising!

Edited June 12, 2018 by Vance.Stubbs

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Vance.Stubbs:

good automated Cc adding to it that's easily the best thing for rage/qt tanking in the game

Manual hard CC > automated RNG CC, it not even arguable

Oh it is for this playstyle. Rage tanking allways comes with risk and reward. You have some risk as you need to be damaged and reward by beein filled with energy whenever that happens.

1) Two ways to make this happen or...possible at all for higher levels is eather by reducing the damage you get (armor, reductions) or by reducing the number of enemys shooting at you (rng Cc, controlled partial Cc, slows). Tho, the more passive it is the better.

2) If you consider using QT then manuall hard, soft Cc or a way to avoid damage alltogether (invulnerability, invisibility) to interrupt the stagger are required. The faster and the less energy greedy the better and if you gain something aside from the Cc that's good too. And lastly...

3) Things to spend your energy on make sense too.

Ember has 1) passive rng Cc that reduces enemy fire on medicore stats, what allows maximum energy gain with minimal risk. 2) a fast, soft stunlock Cc with a damage buff attached to it, perfect for QT and 3) her 1, 2 and 3 as spammable sources of damage. It's ideal resulting in pretty much the same kinda Cc on a 1000 times better power economy compared to "manual hard Cc", what allows for more damage and utility...

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Vance.Stubbs:

except for the fact that you're spreading fire to everything you pass/Believe it or not but WoF has fire status by default

Too bad Heat CC proc doesn't work against non-human enemies and has cooldown unlike "hard" CC effects from abilities

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Heat_Damage

Sure is reduced for them but nothing but ospreys and bosses are immune. Doesn't mean they're immune to the damage tho. I have yet to see the day where a mf moa beats my arse.

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Vance.Stubbs:

 what's not really an issue since yeah, buffs indeed. Dbuffs rather, what makes it more then "self buffs"

Except nobody but other Embers uses Heat damage by themselves, and Flash Accelerant ruins many builds like turning full Toxin anti-corpus build to Gas

And you must be joking there...gas status is aoe toxic and proccs for 50%/tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds to all enemys instead of one, totalling in 350% extra damage/enemy that bypasses shields too so under normal circumstances, you're merely making the damage do aoe instead of singletarget damage. It's rather uncommon to play toxic in the first place since slash bypasses both, shields and armor what makes it the better choice to begin with and if someone does, a decent status chance can be a given.. but what a convinient theoretic example this is. Or is it not? Given that it is a straight upgrade to toxic if you're not trying to go raw damage on shieldet enemys...

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Gas_Damage

The other 98% of the time, you're buffing used elements or straight up add fire, that's then indeed affected by accelerant. Radiation and pure IPS builds are pretty popular right now too are they not?

Edited June 12, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Jin_Lightning]

Lots of good feedback and discussion, I like it.

There's really nothing that's a solution that everyone likes either. That's really tough....

[RealPandemonium]

On 2018-06-12 at 7:14 AM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

And you must be joking there...gas status is aoe toxic and proccs for 50%/tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds to all enemys instead of one, totalling in 350% extra damage/enemy that bypasses shields too so under normal circumstances, you're merely making the damage do aoe instead of singletarget damage.

Two discrepancies here.

1) Changing your damage type to Gas will remove a lot of up-front damage against Corpus since you are no longer ignoring shields and have a small penalty against Flesh.  If your Gas proc rate is high you will be fine, especially if you're using a non-IPS weapon.  If your Gas proc rate is low, you will lose quite a bit of damage. 

Corpus enemies have no armor, so straight damage buffs are generally good against them, but they lack headcrit bonuses (if you're using critical hits) on their humanoids and have no weak point on their fusion/corrupted/anti MOAS; once their raw HP starts stacking up at higher levels you will want that Toxin damage bonus for the Crewmen and Anti-MOAs.

2) Gas proc is 50% of modified base damage plus Toxin mod bonus in an AOE, which itself has 100% proc rate.  The DoT is thus 25% of modified base damage but it gets the square of your Toxin bonus from mods, making it more powerful than a standard Toxin proc on builds that have both (three if riven) Toxin mods equipped.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb RealPandemonium:

 

2) Gas proc is 50% of modified base damage plus Toxin mod bonus in an AOE, which itself has 100% proc rate.  The DoT is thus 25% of modified base damage but it gets the square of your Toxin bonus from mods, making it more powerful than a standard Toxin proc on builds that have both (three if riven) Toxin mods equipped.

Wiki:

The cloud deals immediate damage on proc equal to (Base Damage + Toxin Damage) ÷ 2, then does 9 ticks of damage over 8 seconds each equal to Toxin Damage.

So nah. It calculates off the innitial damage as it should, not off the gas cloud. And i dare say if you're playing raw toxic wo status chance, even if you're fighting corpus then you're doing something wrong to begin with. It's a pretty great damage and efficiency loss having to strike multiple times when 1 hit would be enough otherwise. And if that's the case, if one's playing with a status chance then you're buffing even more hit efficient with gas what IS quite the upgrade to toxic.

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Wiki:

The cloud deals immediate damage on proc equal to (Base Damage + Toxin Damage) ÷ 2, then does 9 ticks of damage over 8 seconds each equal to Toxin Damage.

So nah. It calculates off the innitial damage as it should, not off the gas cloud. And i dare say if you're playing raw toxic wo status chance, even if you're fighting corpus then you're doing something wrong to begin with. It's a pretty great damage and efficiency loss having to strike multiple times when 1 hit would be enough otherwise. And if that's the case, if one's playing with a status chance then you're buffing even more hit efficient with gas what IS quite the upgrade to toxic.

Wiki is wrong here; I will fix. 

Not all weapons have a good status chance, and many would argue that it's more efficient to use an extra bullet to kill an enemy instantly then it is to wait for DoT to kill them, due to the benefit of removing them from the stage sooner.  There's nothing wrong with using a high base damage weapon boosted with Toxin to delete Crewmen and Anti-MOAs with raw damage.  

Edit: Wiki is fixed now.

Edited June 17, 2018 by RealPandemonium
fixed wiki

[ErlKoeng]

My take on her abilities:

1 - Fireball - forced knockdown on enemies in AoE. Inflicts debuff: +100% damage dealt by fire based damage.

2- Accelerant - same radial stun, speeding up casting. Inflicts debuff: +50% damage dealt by fire based damage.

3- Fireblast - close range knockdown and massive fire damage on those in vicinity. Inflicts debuff: +200% damage dealt by fire based damage.

4- World on Fire - same toggleable ability dealing fire damage to enemies but with different escalating effect. It starts relatively weak and slowly die out, dealing less and less damage, unless you feed it. Enemies killed by fire based attacks (lesser powers or fire based weapons), but not by WoF itself, charge WoF, making it deal more damage and have more range. As WoF grows stronger - maintain energy per second cost also grows, but Ember lesser powers cost reduced accordingly (down to 10% of original energy cost).

Idea is that you won't just activate WoF as kill-everything field, but slowly feed the fire by burning enemies with your lesser powers and fire based weapons. It starts as stinging heat waves, grows into forest fire and ultimately turns into blazing inferno, scorching enemies in seconds, but also depleting Ember's energy reserves very quickly.

Addition of +% damage from fire attacks on all Ember lesser powers will allow to combo it with fire based weapons even if base damage of powers will become too low for tougher enemies.

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by ErlKoeng

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Am 17.6.2018 um 19:21 schrieb RealPandemonium:

Wiki is wrong here; I will fix. 

Not all weapons have a good status chance, and many would argue that it's more efficient to use an extra bullet to kill an enemy instantly then it is to wait for DoT to kill them, due to the benefit of removing them from the stage sooner.  There's nothing wrong with using a high base damage weapon boosted with Toxin to delete Crewmen and Anti-MOAs with raw damage.  

Edit: Wiki is fixed now.

You might wanna chill on editing the wiki to fit your agenda.

Did run a test right now. Made sure i didn't crit in both trys so i made a few.

This is the test i made with gas. Trigger damage was 768 noncrit, set gas for 83, ticked for 104.

Trigger image:

http://imgur.com/gallery/imb2Ro3

Then i removed the heat mods. Same weapon, no crit too. Trigger damage was 207, toxic 99, ticked for 82.

Img

http://imgur.com/gallery/4trXkFU

The calculation should ignore resistances and the likes and only base off basedamage and toxic mods in both cases until it hits, beein toxic in both cases tho. I did get slight differences on the same enemys with the same modding but that aside they were pretty similar and i got even greater ticks then the gas cloud from the proccs, that should proove that gas does NOT set toxic for 25% but indeed more or less the same damage as the cloud does, basing off the weapon rather then the cloud.

Edit: Back to the wiki?

Edit 2: it is also worth mentioning that elements on physical weapons have a reduced chance to trigger status over physical ones...by buffing heat you sure don't buff the toxic part but up the odds to set gas.... so it's usefull in more then one way.

Edited June 18, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[DjKaplis]

I like the original post idea, sounds interesting. Her 4th boosting other abilities in new ways while channelling could be really fun if DE decided to change her in this direction.

[RealPandemonium]

9 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

snip

Gas procs will have more damage per tick than Toxin procs, despite being based on 1/4 rather than 1/2 of base damage, because the Toxin damage bonus from mods is squared due to being applied twice.  Your example demonstrates this.  It would also be wise to not test on an armored target since it makes damage calculation more complicated.

I know the damage system pretty thoroughly; I am definitely not editing the wiki to reflect anything other than reality.  The fellow who had edited it previously had reached a mistaken conclusion about the underlying math due to lack of understanding of how proc damage calculation works.  The formulas end up coming to some similar numbers, but the one he had posted was nonetheless incorrect.

[Femuru]

3 main well actually lets make 4 reasons of why ppl will not like ember the way she is because

- her 4 cheeses the early game too much (its a aoe toggle that can dmg things of course itll cheese) making anything below lvl 40 die making things boring to new coming players and adding a very lazy playstyle

- now on to the topic of her late game (im not counting flood kuva or sorties) its horrible her so called signature move world on fire somehow went from killing everything in the room to a cc ability now because the dmg scaling is so bad. mainly ppl who want really to go into very high lvl enemies like doing endurance going above lvl 200 well the cc is mediocre there are technically better cc frames if u want a cc job most frames will have a role to play in late game but ember will fall off compared to the rest.

-her other abilities dont shine so much as to using her 4 for cc which makes it sadder. we can use her 2 and 1 for cc maybe her 3 wit the augment but again there are better cc frame for the job. now looking at their dmg perspective its also sad they wont scale as hard for example if i want dmg boosted i would just brought banshee insane dmg boost and relatively good cc (yes i kno her 4 cheeses as well but she can atleast still bring something different to the table late game) all at once downside is she is squishy but ember isnt really that tanky either which is where why ppl argue her ability to eat dmg. 

-now for the extra which isnt really relative to her ability is well we all kno how long itll take for DE to do any rework on a frame or even look at them its abit of time. so wen her last rework came in ppl were extremely disappointed. its basically the same thing just built differently toggle aoe that does some dmg but again falls off later even if u built full dmg the aoe circle so small(but still tickle armor units) u have to be in their face but ember is squishy so thats a bad idea.

i wont even tell ppl ember is bad i love her as a frame and potential of where she could go from reading her first 3 abilities but if ppl constantly argue for a scaling change that makes a better 4 whether it be a support, survivability, tank, or dmg(but take skill to use) then im all ears but the aoe toggle wit abit dmg will probly have to go.

 

[IMMentat]

On 2018-06-12 at 7:01 AM, GinKenshin said:

Well if you’re gonna addresss the problem which is WoF killing everything low lvl but the ability still does just that....you didn’t do a good job fixing the problem 

 

  If they wanna fix WoF then they need to change it entirely, the concept is what’s flawed here, they tried the same thing with Ash’s BS rework and they themselves said it was op, ember is just that with low lvl mobs 

 

  And let’s not forget how useless her 1st still is because the charge time takes forever and iirc isn’t affected with natural talent (even if it is, there’s no point using a mod for just her 1st) and her 3rd giving a dmg buff which need you to stay still, and giving the same if not worse cc than her 2nd, and I still don’t get why her 3rd isn’t affected by range mods

so much, this.

Gotta be honest, the patch/re-work massively reduced my playtime with my former BAE because of the constant baby-sitting needed to maintain range on her ult.
I (and can) still do everything that was possible before but there was a lot more busy-work with un-casting and re-casting the ult when i could simply take another frame for more consistent results (and have the mechanics feel rewarding rather than being a punishment).

My opinions on embers kit as it currently stands.

Ability 1 charge-up is worthless. 1 bullet can out-damage it's total output even when (agonisingly slowly) fully-charged.
If you are doing nothing for 2.5 seconds in a firefight (longer than most ult activations) then the reward better be damned impressive.

2 is fine.

3 is weird, it's like a low powered ultimate with far too many effects going on at the same time.
you want range for the knockdown/damage/status-panic, but you want low-range to trigger the damage-boost. multi-cast benefits the damage boost/knockdown but maked the DoT/persistent effects worthless, her 4 augment also makes the knockdown-spam option vastly innefficient.

4 is weird. you start out with all the power it used to have, 16 seconds later you have more damage and a drastically reduced range.
On top of a power drain you feel punished for using a toggle ability that has a CC element instead of rewarded for it's use.

 

IMO, DE need to pick a path. either ember is an AE killer with multiple overlapping fire-spells that can tear through hitpoints (in which case, dump a lot of the additional effects and synergise/streamline the hell out of her core-kit)
or ember is a hybrid AoE-CC-buff frame with modest damage but valuable debilitating effects.

For both paths I feel the answer is similar. Sadly this is another request for an ember re-work.

Ability 1, make the charge-up passive, up to 4 times the raw effect if you leave the ability alone for 10 seconds. spam remains cautios uses is now rewarded.

2 is fine

3, make the damage boost based around standing in the zone, or stack with power strength, or treat as per the suggestion for her 1 and reward more conservative use.
Either way remove incentive to spam the effect, she already has a small-stun built into her 2 so also having a (more expensive) spam knockdown is redundant.

4, pick a damned path but make it rewarding to use.
A. Make it ground/area based where you plant a fire-zone and stack it into a raging inferno (some overlap with octavia but the build up can be based on player-casts rather than taunted enemies).
B. Keep the PBAoE nature but instead of messing with the range and damage values have it do a low tick of damage based on each enemies total health (0.1% - 0.5% total health damage per dot-tick), keep a basic fire-status trigger/proc chance (and the visual explosions) on the ability but strip it of all other damage. this way it scales up while not instantly killing the entire level at lower levels (which was the stated goal of the last change)
C. keep the PBAoE but have the damage build up over time based on the how long the enemy burns rather than globally within the effect (like saryn spores but impossible to spread). 5 targets max keeps it under control, you can manage single target damage-scaling far more easily than that saryn rework and again low level enemies won't be deleted from existence instantly.
D. Keep the existing version, rework the entire frame to be more of a close-in CC-DPS-tank and let the flames consume all. Half-joking about this especially as gara, valkyr, nezha and inaros alfready fulfil this role but as it stands this is how Embers ult currently treats the player.

 

I took the time to give the girl a make-over this week, polished up her mod builds to modern standards, and tested ways to self-inflict a fire-proc ( hands down the javlok).
Now I just need to play her again and the mood is already leaving me. . .

Edited June 21, 2018 by IMMentat

[RealPandemonium]

4 hours ago, IMMentat said:

snip

1 is pretty strong if you consider the Heat proc and how the napalm refreshes the heat proc's CC and damage for an additional 13-16 seconds.  With 200 powerstr and Flash Accelerant equipped, a direct hit with Fireball on an Acceleranted enemy deals 83000 damage.  Charged up it deals 166,000.  Charged up headshot deals 316,000.  Even just the AoE and Napalm damage can deal up to 76,000 on average in an aoe to humanoids if you headshot the tallest humanoid in the group (charged up.)

I would just shorten the charge time to 1.4 seconds.

 

Of course 2 is fine, it's one of the best powers in the game.

 

Being able to charge up 3 would feel better than spamming it to get more damage increase, though I personally don't use it much for that purpose.  Making it even better for damage increase would lead to people sitting under snow globes and such just spamming it like Volt shields, which I'm not a fan of.  

 

WoF's changes could have been more graceful but I'm liking its latest incarnation now that I've adjusted.  The efficiency nerf was well-warranted and the increased power at max ramp-up is helpful to give you extra damage when you need it.  I also actually like that the range goes down since it makes it easier to micromanage my heat procs.  I can use one of those aforementioned big Fireballs on heavy enemies and then sustain the super heat proc indefinitely by moving into WoF's range.

Ember's passive is a joke atm.  Self-javloking can be effective to maintain the passive, but this is not what a passive should be about.

[Maka.Bones]

On 2018-06-10 at 2:11 PM, Jin_Lightning said:

Frames like Ash, with above everage health and armour.

And also has invisibility

[Maka.Bones]

On 2018-06-10 at 2:43 PM, Rin-senpai said:

now its perfect... DE do a great job with Ember rework...

Sounds like someone hates ember lol.

[Rin-senpai]

Ember is one from my fav frames... soooooooooo NOPE!