In defense of fun

[Emperrier]

Over the past year or so there have been numerous nerfs to things that could be perhaps best described as "divisive" or "cheesy".

Non-exhaustively;

• Tonkor
• Synoid Simulor
• Assimilate (thankfully, later reversed)
• Link Trinity
• Iron Shrapnel ragdoll
• Ember
• Glaive Wukong
• Vex Armor
• Saryn
• Post-rework Beam weapons
• Subset of the above, but the interaction between chaining weapons and range mods
• Kavat buff working on Operators
• Gara wall getting a duration
• Limbo getting practically all damage removed from his 4, and then losing what made his 2 cool
• Arca Plasmor
• Exodia Contagion
• Sonicor Space Program (reversed, and then... unreversed?)
• And on the horizon, I think everyone sees Pablo eyeing the fact that Rivens work on Atlas/Gara/Khora abilities

There were plenty of buffs and additions in there. There's some great updates, and overall DE has done great work over the past year. I'm sure the dev team had very good reasons for all of these. People raged about them when they happened and the world has continued to turn after these changes were made and largely, people are over it.

But I ask this: Is Warframe a better place when Ember feels bad to play? Does balancing Arca Plasmor do anything except stick in the craw of people who forma'd an Arca Plasmor, and make people going forward just use the next most powerful gun? Is any amount of appeasement going to stop people from hating on Limbo? Did these changes make Warframe more fun? What are these changes in service of? Balance in a PvE game? Pleasing everybody all the time? Fixing things that were unintended for the sake of them not being intended? 

If you ask me, it's just made everything more samey. Warframe powers are getting reworked to stand out less, and off-builds are getting deleted. There's fewer goofy interaction funsies to cobble together and laugh at. It feels like there's no reward for learning the ins and outs of this game. Nothing feels good to invest in anymore because if it's any good it's next on the chopping block. I've been taking longer breaks from Warframe than I ever have been, and after waiting months and months for my favorite frame's Prime, my hype for this next PA is completely gone.

It's fun when things break. It's fun when you find a way to make something way better than seemed possible at first blush. It's fun when S#&$ explodes and there's particles and bodies everywhere. It's fun when a swath of nothing enemies get utterly murked. It's fun when you have the frames and the mods and the resources to throw away on a joke. DE did this right once. They turned coptering into Parkour and it's one of this game's most beloved systems and most standout selling points. So please, going forward, give some thought to whether the fix you're making is more fun than leaving it broken.

[KochDerFrettchen]

It's fun to pick up a weapon you enjoy using without having to worry about whether it's among the ten (or whatever arbitrary number) incredibly powerful items in its class so that you can go ahead and use it without getting flamed or left behind in higher level content.

They're slowly getting a hold on where they wish the power 'ceiling' to be, and what items exceed that.  Some things need a nerf, many others need a buff, some are already around  the preferred ceiling and don't need to be touched.  People's perception of where an item lies in those groups is often not where it actually is.

Also; Toe-may-toe Toe-mah-toh.  One person's fun spamming the huge explodey thing is another person's tedium.

Edited June 12, 2018 by KochDerFrettchen

[Misgenesis]

Most of the things you listed were completely justified in getting changed. Stuff like the weapons that are still good without being outliers, Arca Plasmor is still the best shotgun with Tigris Prime.

This whole post just screams ''I havent played any of these after changes'' i mean for gods sake Saryn is quite literally better than she has ever been.

2 hours ago, Emperrier said:

Balance in a PvE game?

Stop using this excuse. This isnt a singleplayer game, skipping gameplay and grind with outliers is bad for DE's business on top of being bad gameplay design.

2 hours ago, Emperrier said:

It's fun when things break. It's fun when you find a way to make something way better than seemed possible at first blush. It's fun when S#&$ explodes and there's particles and bodies everywhere. It's fun when a swath of nothing enemies get utterly murked.

Breaking news, you can still do all of this.

[RealPandemonium]

Should have named the thread "In defense of grind streamlining," which is the opposite of fun!

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

My 2 cents...

-Tonkor: yes, it needed self damage; it's a grenade launcher! It was all I ever saw while leveling, which made it worse, especially on maps like Akkad where you are given bonus Affinity for melee kills. 

-Synoid Simulor: yes, but only because of the same reason as the Tonkor. People would only use the Tonkor and the Synoid Simulor on maps like Akkad to level up which would actually hurt your Affinity gains. Throw a Symirage or 2 in there with a Psychotic "Ima place muh bubbles evewheres" Frost and your game was effectively over. Plus, Simulor spam didn't encourage intelligent gameplay and anyone with a Symirage spamming shots everywhere, really discourages team cooperation! 

-Nyx Assimilate: annoying, but not really a problem; glad it's back! 

-Link Trinity: please kill it with fire! Every time I enter into a match with a link Trinity, especially defense missions, everyone leaves before or at wave 5. It is a game exploit and it completely goes against cooperating as a team in a co-op game. It's only in the game because the devs as humans, can't know every facet of ways things will be used. It is fun for the first wave, but after the unrewarding few missions where everyone leaves, and the ensuing hate mail, it needs to be put out to pasture. 

-Iron-Shrapnel Ragdol: Hilarious glitch! It was a glitch and I glad it's fixed especially since some enemies wouldn't be counted as dead after being hit and timers would count down and you would fail the mission! The devs couldn't have that with the Plains of Eidolon and mission timers both being a thing. 

-Ember: why, Ember why? The range nerf really hurts her and the increase in damage to WoF does not help when the enemy shooting you has been hit once, but is now slightly out of range and... now you're dead. Why? She did completely wipe rooms on defense missions though, which was a problem! Now, she murders everything under level 30 with 15 meters and then dies because of the one Grineer Heavy Gunner in the room. 

-Glaive Wukong: please kill it with fire for the same reasons as "Nuke the Room, Link Trinity"! 

-Vex Armor: makes the damage for one frame ridiculous. People would only use Chroma on Eidolons and DE wanted players to have more options than "one build to rule them all"!

-Saryn: her Spores encouraged idiotic gameplay such as spam Spores again and again and occasionally use Molt, to spam more Spores. They were too effective! I always wish Saryn had more synergy in her kit as opposed to... Spores and more Spores. Her Spores needed to infect enemies not outright kill everything in the room! 

-Beam Weapons: not a nerf. Unless you're talking about the original decision to make beam weapons do everything by the second, eons ago. That was a terrible idea! Can anyone say, "Flux Rifle"? 

-Subset of Above: not really problem. 

-Kavats: It should work on Operators, but then everyone would use only a Kavat! DE is finally realizing that just because a specific piece of gear is excellent at one thing doesn't mean other gear can't be too! 

-Gara: should never have had an invincible wall based on duration! It's glass, glass breaks! I had to recast that power so many times to hold an area it really made it inefficient for a power designed to hold an area, to not last was terrible! 

-Limbo: people who play Limbo are either trying to actively help the team by using their powers less or are actively trolling the team by being general trolls. DE had to add some kind of feature that aided teammates while the Rift was up otherwise... Limbo will continue to be a joke only told by the elite and... those who no one has good words for... 

-Arca Plasmor: the ability to hit every target in a 15 meter cone with instant death isn't enough for you? It was exceedingly overpowered, but so very much fun! It just became the go-to weapon for everyone and that doesn't help when you're trying to get people to use other weapons! 

-Exodias: were a problem because of Nukong and the fact that Contagion would kill everything when used with Daggers + Covert Lethality. This is another exploit glitch that is unintended! 

-Sonicor: non-issue. 

Why haven't you mentioned things like Banshee Spam-Qweens, shoddy Archwing controls, the current trend in increased time requirements to acquire things, or things that really affect the game?

The game is much more fun when everything works as a cohesive whole. While there are a few things on your list that need some re looks by DE (why, my precious Fire Chicken, why? Arca Plasmor, no!) most of these are exploits that do more to destroy the game and divide the community. I' all for getting them fixed! 

What is something you would actually like to see fixed to make the game stay fun that isn't an exploit, Emperrier? 

[Sibernetika]

The Tonkor was great, I didn't care about damage output, I cared about the ability to rocket jump all over the place.. I modded for reload speed not damage and then it had to go get ruined.. It was the only reason why I got primed fast hands.. What a waste of cores and credits.. The only reason why I still have Tonkor instead of deleting it to make space is just have one ready for that one possible mr fodder weapon that needs tonkor as a resource 

[Emperrier]

7 hours ago, Misgenesis said:

This whole post just screams ''I havent played any of these after changes'' i mean for gods sake Saryn is quite literally better than she has ever been.

I could care less if she's better, she was dumbed down. Personally I find the decay mechanic highly tilting, and judging by the near-100% rate at which I see Saryns drop the group in ESO when I go as map-nuke Equinox I'm not alone.

7 hours ago, Misgenesis said:

Stop using this excuse. This isnt a singleplayer game, skipping gameplay and grind with outliers is bad for DE's business on top of being bad gameplay design.

Grind for what, dropped resources? The thing that isn't a thing once you've played for over a week? Most grind in this game is in drop rotations and round timers which are the same regardless of how strong your methods are. Which, for the record, generally cheese builds weren't actually the strongest.

8 hours ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

They're slowly getting a hold on where they wish the power 'ceiling' to be, and what items exceed that.  Some things need a nerf, many others need a buff, some are already around  the preferred ceiling and don't need to be touched. 

It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. If their idea of power budget and balance isn't fun, then being balanced isn't worth anything.

5 hours ago, (XB1)ZenithLord 42 said:

Why haven't you mentioned things like Banshee Spam-Qweens, shoddy Archwing controls...things that really affect the game?

Because my enjoyment of the game isn't based on taking away things from other people based on the fact that I don't enjoy them.

5 hours ago, (XB1)ZenithLord 42 said:

the current trend in increased time requirements to acquire things

Not a problem if you have fun doing it. Personally I found the grind for Khora tolerable... Until DE systematically removed everything I liked to use except Nuke Equinox and now I'm so sick of that it hurts.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Emperrier

[Volinus7]

Well, many people prefer to play Warframe as a cookie clicker game instead of an action game. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Djego27]

Il y a 12 heures, Emperrier a dit :

But I ask this: Is Warframe a better place when Ember feels bad to play? Does balancing Arca Plasmor do anything except stick in the craw of people who forma'd an Arca Plasmor, and make people going forward just use the next most powerful gun? Is any amount of appeasement going to stop people from hating on Limbo? Did these changes make Warframe more fun? What are these changes in service of? Balance in a PvE game? Pleasing everybody all the time? Fixing things that were unintended for the sake of them not being intended?  

It is when you do not run into Ember in every single low level mission. Also Ember plays exactly like she did before the toggle change, where they was the same but unusable by nearly the hole community, because hitting 4 from time to time is such a impossible task to ask. The arcor plasmor was incredible broken before the changes, like 97% damage done on the old Saryn in 40 waves defence against my clan leader broken(because it did hit the hole map on the old Saryn) and it is still one of the best weapons in the game. The first iteration of the limbo changes where just stupid, same as "like it or not, everybody uses melee now on my command!".

50% of the people did not run through sortis with a Tonkor because they are super clever(heck people still use elemental frames&weapons in elemental resist sortis or try to spin to win slash proc her way through IPS resist sortis). You did not see a Ember in nearly every single lower level mission because people are big fans of the frame. Balance in a video game mostly means that the developer does consider you as a intelligent person that is capable to chose between a fair amount of options that can be good/bad depending on the scenario. The lack of balance means for the most part the opposite and stuff is not totally random broken(think of it as a carefully crafted surprise, that you are supposed find), yet super easy to spot even for the given target audience that does not like balanced games.

[Buttaface]

Fun is not having one's game immersion spoiled by cheeze, and not spoiling the immersion of others by using cheeze. People who play a casual game like WF as a "serious business muh kill count" tactical shooter, and so press every possible cheeze button to come out "on top" are doing it wrong IMO, especially when they look around and their teammates are standing idly by twiddling their thumbs. WF isn't "that game" (there are hundreds of other options for "that game"), that's not "fun" and it's not "fun" for any emotionally, mentally mature gamer doing it either in a game like WF.

Radial AOE including aimbot in the game needs to be -drastically- nerfed down. Thought they were moving in that direction with Harrow, an excellently designed frame in need of a few tweaks... then along come Gara and Khora with new strains of obnoxious cheeze. I am pessimistic that vamp frame will be any better in the cheeze department, probably even worse.

I don't understand why it's apparently so difficult to come up with frame skillsets that are good, powerful, fun, yet don't represent opportunities to cheeze or trivialize content.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Buttaface

[LuckyCharm]

Be glad the games real problem hasnt been adressed and gets shyed away from with every mention. Energy gains. 

Every single bit of balance goes out the window when you can spam endlessly to lock things down/ nuke things/ immortal run past everything. Theres no tactics, pressing one button over and over isnt "fun". All thats been gained from all of this is efficiency. Probably a bad thing since with the huge amount of kills we rack up each mission now every new thing has to be exponentially longer to grind for than they used to. That and all the resource costs keep going up too. 

Oh and as a melee player im looking forward to this melee rework, even if everyone else is screaming nerf again. It'll be one less thing forcing you to have to play only a single way for entire missions less you lose that combo counter. 

 

Be glad you still get to spam all you like with whatever cheese you like. Every frame has some form of it to exploit. Its still not fun though when you have put all the work into making strong guns and its voided by someone pressing 4 on repeat

[KochDerFrettchen]

4 hours ago, Emperrier said:

It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. If their idea of power budget and balance isn't fun, then being balanced isn't worth anything.

It IS a game, and it IS supposed to be fun.  Watching the one guy with the most built AoE-slaughter button wipe the whole map isn't fun for many(many)[many] of us.  It's not fun for the other guy who also brought AoE spam equipment, it's not fun for the people who use... literally anything else, it might be fun for the guy who likes to sit in the rift as limbo.

If a piece of gear trivializes the game for a person AND their coop partners, it isn't worth anything. :v

(As a side thought, I wonder how large the overlap is between people who get salty about limbo's and stasis and people who are fine popping the whole map with an AoE nuke repeatedly is.)

[AlinaBee]

Gameplay is about making meaningful decisions.  Powerful guns still require picking targets, aiming, positioning.  AoE spam and auto-playing skills eliminate that entirely and can be easily automated with no need for players.

Edited June 12, 2018 by AlinaBee

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

If you want fun, keep your fingers crossed for Anthem then, maybe Destiny, but who are we kidding? But really we need Anthem to be a hit and competitive giant in the same looter shooter arena. Why? De gets a little more creative, hungry, and fun starts to be main concern to keep its internal numbers even on player population. Warframe had been out for bit before Destiny launched, and when it did, De was basically Oprah with "you get a special mod, and you get a special mod and everyone gets a special mod!!!" Then they started trying new things,..basically when they have competition...fun gets pulled front and center. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

I agree that DE changing up things to can be a fun killer, but your argument needs some revisions. There's fun and then there's fun at the detriment of the continuity of the game and the community. 

DE expects players to be intelligent enough to contribute builds that don't completely enable one person to determine the outcome of other people's games. 

There are a multitude of different choices of gear in Sanctuary Onslaught other than Nuke Frames. I personally use the same Rage build Oberon that I use to murder Eidolons. So having to use niche "nuke builds" is unnecessary and not at all required. 

The one thing that is required in a game mode like Sanctuary Onslaught is competency. As long as everyone is killing the enemies as they spawn, the game will continue, and the rewards will happen. 

Everyone wants the rewards now, but they either don't understand how to play the game by modding correctly or they assume that they can spend the minimum amount of time in game to get the same rewards which is exactly the opposite of how RNG works! 

As a game that encourages cooperation and an hour or 2 of your time invested everyday, Warframe isn't a game for niche builds or one person getting all of "muh kilz". The game plays better when people play the way the game is made to be played! 

The main point is that everyone wins at the price of some some gear that makes the game play itself takes a hit. At the same time though DE has to be careful and make the game playable and fun while still giving the player options to be powerful. 

I really wish DE would take a look at Mass Effect 3's multiplayer mode and it's gameplay. It made you powerful and left room for actual team work. The powers were fun and each character was unique! 

[brokensaintvxvx]

"Is Warframe a better place when Ember feels bad to play?"

I dont think ember "feels bad" to play.  She is still one of my favorite frames in fact.

"Does balancing Arca Plasmor do anything except stick in the craw of people who forma'd an Arca Plasmor, and make people going forward just use the next most powerful gun?"

Theres a saying: "variety is the spice of life." Using one weapon only let's you experience one facet of the game.  Try other things, you may like them just as much, or stick with The plasmor its still powerful.

"Is any amount of appeasement going to stop people from hating on Limbo?"

If limbo doesnt negatively effect players any longer then there is no reason to hate limbo.  That said, see "variety is the spice of life."

Did these changes make Warframe more fun?

"Fun" is subjective.

 

"What are these changes in service of?"

Fostering a cooperative, unique and interesting play environment where player choice is more important than player meta.

"Balance in a PvE game?"

Or that

"Pleasing everybody all the time? "

If the balance changes were made to please everyone all the time" them there wouldn't be complaints about changing the way the game functions.

Fixing things that were unintended for the sake of them not being intended? 

yes? I feel like this should be obvious.

[peterc3]

"Fun" "Creative" "Innovative"

Stop dressing up objective OP equipment as if you worked hard to get to that level of power instead of doing the exact same as everything else in the game but getting way more power out of those specific items.

16 hours ago, Emperrier said:

So please, going forward, give some thought to whether the fix you're making is more fun than leaving it broken.

Yeah, tell the devs of a game to not fix it. Solid advice, A+.

[Emperrier]

6 hours ago, Djego27 said:

50% of the people did not run through sortis with a Tonkor because they are super clever...you did not see a Ember in nearly every single lower level mission because people are big fans of the frame.

People were fans of those playstyles though, as shown by the humongous uproar when they were removed. Those people went on to play something else, not because they chose to but because you forced them to change how they played. But nobody's having trouble with sorties or low level missions on account of those playstyles being gone so like... what was gained? You made a lot of people upset and the balance of the game didn't change.

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

People who play a casual game like WF as a "serious business muh kill count" tactical shooter, and so press every possible cheeze button to come out "on top" are doing it wrong IMO

And IMO you need to think about why you think the only ways people should be allowed to play are ways you think are correct.

3 hours ago, brokensaintvxvx said:

Theres a saying: "variety is the spice of life."

Here's another: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't nerf not drinking". Nerfing weapons into uselessness only promotes variety for the people who played while it was good, and nobody enjoys being forced to do anything anyway.

3 hours ago, brokensaintvxvx said:

Fostering a cooperative, unique and interesting play environment where player choice is more important than player meta

For any choice to be equally viable means that choice does not matter. That is not interesting.

3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Yeah, tell the devs of a game to not fix it

Solid reading, A+. I literally gave an example (coptering) of what I was suggesting just for context and you still totally missed the point, very impressive.

3 hours ago, brokensaintvxvx said:

Fixing things that were unintended for the sake of them not being intended? 

yes? I feel like this should be obvious.

But this doesn't make any sense. It's like getting smacked across the knuckles for writing with your left hand. Just let people play how they enjoy playing.

[shyguyk]

2 hours ago, Emperrier said:

For any choice to be equally viable means that choice does not matter. That is not interesting.

So what we do is go and have a few select things miles above the next decent thing right? Thats what i'm hearing, that peoples push 1 button to obliterate the room must be accomodated at the expense of everyone else who want to shoot at something in the mission.

Deleting the whole room is pretty much equivalent to an allied limbo banishing me for no good reason. It gets old.

[KochDerFrettchen]

3 hours ago, Emperrier said:

Here's another: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't nerf not drinking". Nerfing weapons into uselessness only promotes variety for the people who played while it was

They are not useless.  People were not enjoying USING them, they were enjoying how broken they were.  The people who enjoy these items continue to use them, the people who were using them for the power moved on to the next flavor of the month.

[NeithanDiniem]

3 hours ago, Emperrier said:

People were fans of those playstyles though, as shown by the humongous uproar when they were removed. Those people went on to play something else, not because they chose to but because you forced them to change how they played. But nobody's having trouble with sorties or low level missions on account of those playstyles being gone so like... what was gained? You made a lot of people upset and the balance of the game didn't change.

It made a lot of people happy as well, you conveniently left that out to make your argument sound better. Also the balance shifted towards more fair, you also completely ignored that.

3 hours ago, Emperrier said:

And IMO you need to think about why you think the only ways people should be allowed to play are ways you think are correct.

And you think the broken things should remain broken because you think it is correct. Hypocrite much?

3 hours ago, Emperrier said:

But this doesn't make any sense. It's like getting smacked across the knuckles for writing with your left hand. Just let people play how they enjoy playing.

The way you enjoy playing interferes with how others enjoy playing. A larger majority. If I enjoy playing with Embers or Earyns that don't invalidate the existence of the entire rest of the team, and we are going by your logic, you make a paradox now don't you? If I enjoyed gunning down my fellow Tenno freely in every mission just for the sake of ruining their experience, people would immediately call me out and say my form of enjoyment is toxic to the game. But with your logic we should let me play how I enjoy playing. Screw everyone else's way of playing amiright? Your logic is flawed. If people wanted to play that way, they could have done so solo and gotten literally the same exact experience, but they didn't. They played it public and it did nothing different for them, but it entirely changed everything for the people that had to deal with them in the team. News flash, People don't like being completely invalidated in a team game.

Edited June 13, 2018 by NeithanDiniem

[Emperrier]

5 hours ago, shyguyk said:

So what we do is go and have a few select things miles above the next decent thing right? Thats what i'm hearing, that peoples push 1 button to obliterate the room must be accomodated at the expense of everyone else who want to shoot at something in the mission.

I can't argue against the imaginary gun you've invented in your head that pops entire rooms with a bullet. If you want to discuss things like how beam weapons feel like marshmallow laser pointers because DE felt the need to "balance" them with an unnecessary warmup mechanic, you can meet me back in reality.

5 hours ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

People were not enjoying USING them, they were enjoying how broken they were.  The people who enjoy these items continue to use them, the people who were using them for the power moved on to the next flavor of the month.

You've created some dichotomy where using something because you like the weapon for some immutable, unknowable characteristic of the thing-in-itself is better and more pure than liking the weapon because it is strong. This is a video game, feeling strong is fun. Nobody asked you to judge how people have fun.

5 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

It made a lot of people happy as well, you conveniently left that out to make your argument sound better.

Yeah weird, almost like I was phrasing my arguments toward the discussion I wanted to have (when fun should trump balance/fixing unintended interactions) and not the one I didn't (hearing the reasons DE gave for these nerfs regurgitated).

5 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

If I enjoy playing with Embers or Earyns that don't invalidate the existence of the entire rest of the team, and we are going by your logic, you make a paradox now don't you? If I enjoyed gunning down my fellow Tenno freely in every mission just for the sake of ruining their experience, people would immediately call me out and say my form of enjoyment is toxic to the game. But with your logic we should let me play how I enjoy playing. Screw everyone else's way of playing amiright? Your logic is flawed. If people wanted to play that way, they could have done so solo and gotten literally the same exact experience, but they didn't.

Getting matchmade in pubs with someone who gets 90% of damage/kills still happens. So if the goal of removing these ways of playing the game that people enjoyed was to make sure that never happened, then nothing positive was accomplished.

Recruit chat has always existed and continues to exist. There's no chat tab I can go into to make Exodia Contagion not garbage. So no, I don't see any contradictions with what I said. Maybe you should give some thought as to why how I want to play is an affront to how you want the game to be played.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

calm down guys, its easy to see how wrong he is,
after all...only 4 people upvoted/like the Original Post 😂👍 

[Kletse]

We have aoe damage, strong single target damage, cc, tanks, healers, energy providers, armor strip, shield destroyers.  All the ingredients for proper teamplay is there. But nooooo..

everyone needs to do 25% damage in a game, otherwise nerf.

This is going the wrong way.

[LupisV0lk]

"Vex Armor" Tis be a sad day when fixing a bug is considered a bad thing, however this is the Warframe community, so anything is possible.