Lion Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Everyone remembers the controversy surrounding The Wait War Within, how it was teased in April, teased again as the big reveal for July's Tennocon 2016, and was stated to be released "in and around Tennocon, by Steve via a forum post. Flash forward to November 12th, a weekend release on a Saturday (oof) and the backlash was tremendous. Since then, DE has made the choice to no longer put any kind of ETA or release date on upcoming content releases, which is completely understandable. However, the problem is they've started using "coming soon" and other variations of the phrase. The reason why this is a problem is because soon often denotes a unit of time much closer than a broad, even far out release date would. It creates an unrealistic amount of hype on our end, and a unhealthy amount of pressure on DE's end. This issue is arising again with The Sacrifice - a quest that has been in the works for presumably a few months now, and was originally teased almost 11 and a half months ago at Tennocon 2017. DE has again jumped the gun by trying to give a release date/timeline before the update was ready to ship (read, READY TO SHIP, not "close") and as it stands now, they are dangerously toying with the risk of failing to meet said timeline - there's hardly enough time left in this week to get the release out and still have a solid day or two for bug-fixing, unless DE wants to stay over the weekend. Going forward, I think that it would be beneficial for DE to give themselves more time than they need, to have an INTERNAL RELEASE DATE (read project deadline), and not one that is publicly announced. This way they have the option to work on it at their pace, without the community breathing down their neck as badly as they are right now, and if they ever happen to finish working on a project ahead of the planned deadline, then they can drop it as a pleasant surprise for everyone. The moment you drop a teaser on something, the clock starts ticking. The moment you tell someone something is coming soon, they'll start ramping up their expectations to an unrealistic level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katinka Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 So, you're saying they should just not tell us anything is coming until it's here? Devstreams will be a lot more boring without previews of things to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, Katinka said: So, you're saying they should just not tell us anything is coming until it's here? Devstreams will be a lot more boring without previews of things to come. I think that they should plan appropriately. Things like Dev Workshops are great things to tide us over - they are just enough of a thing to look forward to without incredible hype building up. Edited June 13, 2018 by Blade Woops, meant to write in this reply. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NullSaint Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 You sound like you have some experience, so you know that it isn't just that simple. Even with all the checks in the world, things can be found at the end of QA, someone can notice something is un-aligned, a developer can wake up in the middle of the night remembering that he didn't cast a variable correctly, and stuff gets delayed. They've managed for 5 years and we enjoy the output, so we should probably just let them handle their business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanadra Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, Blade said: Everyone remembers the controversy surrounding The Wait War Within, how it was teased in April, teased again as the big reveal for July's Tennocon 2016, and was stated to be released "in and around Tennocon, by Steve via a forum post. Flash forward to November 12th, a weekend release on a Saturday (oof) and the backlash was tremendous. Since then, DE has made the choice to no longer put any kind of ETA or release date on upcoming content releases, which is completely understandable. However, the problem is they've started using "coming soon" and other variations of the phrase. The reason why this is a problem is because soon often denotes a unit of time much closer than a broad, even far out release date would. It creates an unrealistic amount of hype on our end, and a unhealthy amount of pressure on DE's end. This issue is arising again with The Sacrifice - a quest that has been in the works for presumably a few months now, and was originally teased almost 11 and a half months ago at Tennocon 2017. DE has again jumped the gun by trying to give a release date/timeline before the update was ready to ship (read, READY TO SHIP, not "close") and as it stands now, they are dangerously toying with the risk of failing to meet said timeline - there's hardly enough time left in this week to get the release out and still have a solid day or two for bug-fixing, unless DE wants to stay over the weekend. Going forward, I think that it would be beneficial for DE to give themselves more time than they need, to have an INTERNAL RELEASE DATE (read project deadline), and not one that is publicly announced. This way they have the option to work on it at their pace, without the community breathing down their neck as badly as they are right now, and if they ever happen to finish working on a project ahead of the planned deadline, then they can drop it as a pleasant surprise for everyone. The moment you drop a teaser on something, the clock starts ticking. The moment you tell someone something is coming soon, they'll start ramping up their expectations to an unrealistic level. Technically Umbra was teased long before The Sacrifice, the quest to get it, was. I think it's been 3 or so years now since Umbra was first discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 9 minutes ago, Blade said: there's hardly enough time left in this week to get the release out and still have a solid day or two for bug-fixing, unless DE wants to stay over the weekend. Then they work over the weekend. Or they don't and just collect data for start of work Monday. You say they should have an internal release date, but what does that actually change? Do bugs respect unannounced release dates more than announced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Lanadra said: Technically Umbra was teased long before The Sacrifice, the quest to get it, was. I think it's been 3 or so years now since Umbra was first discussed. The reason why I specifically didn't mention Umbra was because Umbra started off as a player expectation. DE never teased or said Umbra was coming to the international build until the players started to pressure them on it - which is a bit different than what's going on here with quest development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucker_d_dawg Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lanadra said: The moment you tell someone something is coming soon, they'll start ramping up their expectations to an unrealistic level. This is the recipients problem not theirs. Further, anyone who has been around awhile knows it doesn't matter if they release it Monday or Friday - the bugs will be there for months after release LOL EDIT: The above quote was written by Blaze not Lanadra Edited June 13, 2018 by tucker_d_dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synpai Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, Blade said: The moment you drop a teaser on something, the clock starts ticking. The moment you tell someone something is coming soon, they'll start ramping up their expectations to an unrealistic level. My life has been basically unaffected by Umbra and this quest and it will continue that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime-Ares Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Lanadra said: I think it's been 3 or so years now since Umbra was first discussed. I think 3 years for planning / making a single quest with 1 special posterboy frame is pretty pathetic. I don't mind DElays usually, but to hype the community up this much, then cut the cord, say "we aim for this week"...maybe tomorrow!...maybe Fri- ah guys its nearly the weekend, expect it by next week sometime (fingers crossed!!) What bullsh*t. Occupying themselves with shoving bimbo prime out who's only been halfway worked out from all the kinks, then suddenly Titania, and we see reactions from DE Staff themselves dreading the coming of Tennocon and all. DE clearly doesn't have their priorities straight, nor were they ready for this update launch by any means (which at this rate I'd approx. ~3 - 4 more weeks till Umbra would "optimally" be ready to be launched) Edited June 13, 2018 by Prime-Ares Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Prime-Ares said: I think 3 years for planning / making a single quest with 1 special posterboy frame is pretty pathetic. They had literally 0 plans for it to be anything other than an exclusive for Warframe China. 6 minutes ago, Prime-Ares said: I don't mind DElays usually, but to hype the community up this much, then cut the cord, say "we aim for this week"...maybe tomorrow!...maybe Fri- ah guys its nearly the weekend, expect it by next week sometime (fingers crossed!!) What bullsh*t. Occupying themselves with shoving bimbo prime out who's only been halfway worked out from all the kinks, then suddenly Titania, and we see reactions from them dreading the coming of Tennocon and all. I don't ___ but... proceeds to whine about thing they are apparently unfazed by. DIsingenuous posturing. The BS is your attitude. "Bimbo Prime". "Suddenly" a quick bit about Titania, a frame affected by an impending change to weapons that she is overly affected by compared to the other frames. 6 minutes ago, Prime-Ares said: DE clearly doesn't have their priorities straight Them not prioritizing what you want does not make them wrong. Perhaps something else is more to your liking/appreciates your shining wit more than this dev that is apparently awful. Edited June 13, 2018 by peterc3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, NullSaint said: You sound like you have some experience, so you know that it isn't just that simple. Even with all the checks in the world, things can be found at the end of QA, someone can notice something is un-aligned, a developer can wake up in the middle of the night remembering that he didn't cast a variable correctly, and stuff gets delayed. They've managed for 5 years and we enjoy the output, so we should probably just let them handle their business. Well, I can't say I've worked in game design, but I have pushed numerous time-sensitive projects under the company I work for, so instead of developers pushing updates out to players, it's more like me pushing updates out to my bosses - which have just as unrealistic expectations as players do if I'm being honest haha. I do understand that nothing is ever as simple as it seems, and I don't mean to say that the suggestions I've outlined in my OP are the only ways to fix this problem. If anything, I would've just left this post at "DE, your development process needs a rework." and called it good. The main point I was trying to convey is that this development process must be unhealthy for DE - it puts them into a pretty much year-long crunch time, and crunch time is really good at burning people out. I think it'd do DE a lot of good if they could set realistic goals within the company, and learn to know when the right and wrong times to hype up their player base are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaeacus Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, Synpai said: My life has been basically unaffected by Umbra and this quest and it will continue that way. ^This. Whether Sacrifice comes this week, next week, or next month, I will still be in-game doing something. I have no shortage of activities to complete. If I had accomplished/completed 100% of the game and Sacrifice was the ONLY content I have yet to do, then admittedly I'd be pretty bored. That's where other videogames come in to fill the time. Or Netflix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Blade said: I think it'd do DE a lot of good if they could set realistic goals within the company, and learn to know when the right and wrong times to hype up their player base are. Are you saying one of the largest gaming events of the year is a bad place to want to get something big out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 Just now, peterc3 said: Are you saying one of the largest gaming events of the year is a bad place to want to get something big out? No, not what I'm trying to say, and I don't think that's even close to what I wrote. Maybe my eyes are going bad though. I think that giving a 1 week ETA at one of the largest gaming events of the year for a update that isn't ready to be shipped is a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Blade said: No, not what I'm trying to say, and I don't think that's even close to what I wrote. Maybe my eyes are going bad though. I think that giving a 1 week ETA at one of the largest gaming events of the year for a update that isn't ready to be shipped is a bad idea. What qualifies as ready to ship, to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 Just now, peterc3 said: What qualifies as ready to ship, to you? Something that can realistically meet the proposed 1 week ETA, which this update is looking like it won't be able to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)chubbslawson Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 I understand what you are saying blade and I agree with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanadra Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 14 minutes ago, tucker_d_dawg said: This is the recipients problem not theirs. Further, anyone who has been around awhile knows it doesn't matter if they release it Monday or Friday - the bugs will be there for months after release LOL May want to fix that quote, I most certainly did not say that. 14 minutes ago, Prime-Ares said: I think 3 years for planning / making a single quest with 1 special posterboy frame is pretty pathetic. I don't mind DElays usually, but to hype the community up this much, then cut the cord, say "we aim for this week"...maybe tomorrow!...maybe Fri- ah guys its nearly the weekend, expect it by next week sometime (fingers crossed!!) What bullsh*t. Occupying themselves with shoving bimbo prime out who's only been halfway worked out from all the kinks, then suddenly Titania, and we see reactions from DE Staff themselves dreading the coming of Tennocon and all. DE clearly doesn't have their priorities straight, nor were they ready for this update launch by any means (which at this rate I'd approx. ~3 - 4 more weeks till Umbra would "optimally" be ready to be launched) I think for much of that time, they had no actual plan beyond ''Yeah, Excalibur Umbra is.. well, it's coming eventually.'', maybe he really was originally meant to be China Warframe exclusive, who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaotyke Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, Blade said: so instead of developers pushing updates out to players, it's more like me pushing updates out to my bosses There is a considerate difference in that. You see, if DE had a publisher, like... lets say: EA. They would have to launch the update on the date they set. Otheriwse... EA would shut them down like they did with all others. Since they dont have, its their playerbase who waits, they dont have the pressure of a superiors breathing down their neck. A waiting costumer is still a pressure, but its not on THAT level. One will make you lose some money if the costumer leaves, the other might cost you your job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Just now, Blade said: Something that can realistically meet the proposed 1 week ETA, which this update is looking like it won't be able to do. Has an update ever been released on a Wednesday? Was is realistic to expect it yesterday, today, or even tomorrow? What if it was "ready to ship" but some showstopper appeared out of nowhere? What exactly do you know of DE's development process besides the public bits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AEP8FlyBoy Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) There'd be an equal if not greater amount of backlash if they didn't say anything at all when new stuff was coming, or even giving us a clue at all as to where in the development process new content is. I don't mind them teasing things to come, but I can agree that setting general areas that it could happen and then waiting until the very end of that window to say "It's coming in a new window" is a bit ridiculous sometimes. Whichever way they decide to handle future content, I personally don't mind as I'm a pretty patient guy (and my input really wouldn't change how they handle builds internally). Just saying that there will always be people who get angry about it one way or another. Part of me thinks some players just need a bit of self-control or a distraction during long periods of drought. Playing other games, taking up a hobby or just chilling out with friends until it drops. Edited June 13, 2018 by AEP8FlyBoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune_me Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 I can understand why people would be hyped about a new frame, or a new game mode or whatever. But why would anyone be hyped about a new quest in Warframe? What are quests in this game anyway? 30 minutes of playtime and some silly sci-fi lore? It's hardly worth holding your breath waiting for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldnacpeek Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 They're likely not going to change the way they do things. Everyone will get over this when the update drops like nothing happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 Whoo boy, really piling me with those questions. 3 minutes ago, peterc3 said: Has an update ever been released on a Wednesday? Yes, Chains of Harrow - June 28th, 2017 5 minutes ago, peterc3 said: Was is realistic to expect it yesterday, today, or even tomorrow? I can't really be the judge of that, though if someone says "Coming this week!" I'd wager that any day of the week is fair game. 6 minutes ago, peterc3 said: What if it was "ready to ship" but some showstopper appeared out of nowhere? If something happened that postponed this, say the death of a loved one or something along those lines, I'd imagine that they'd let us know beforehand - like the cancellation of Prime Time due to the passing of TotalBiscuit. 7 minutes ago, peterc3 said: What exactly do you know of DE's development process besides the public bits? I don't know anything about their development process. But I do know that it results in unnecessary excess pressure on the developer team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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