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[Warframe Rework Suggestion] Limbo: Rift "Peek-A-Boo" Style {New Rift Feature, Changes to 1st and 3d Power}


FoxFX
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6 hours ago, LAD.Y said:

I think that idea could potentially work. Depending on the shockwave radius and make it knockdown versus stagger. Stagger would be a good place to start but stagger is what happens when stasis ends initially which as a Limbo player I can tell you only lasts long enough for you to recast stasis the moment it goes off at like 0 which is why the radial banish is useful if your cataclysm gets forcibly closed, since recasting both abilities definitely takes longer than a stagger proc.

 

I'll update the idea with the knockdown suggestion you inputed. Thanks.

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IMAGE/DIAGRAM DESCRIBING THE RIFT "PEEK-A-BOO" FEATURE

2K36fG5g.png

Will update the OP with this diagram to give a better visual describing what the "Peek-A-Boo" Rift feature is all about.

I will also work on visuals for how Limbo's "Rift Blast" and the "Rift Surge" abilities would behave with this new Rift feature.

Edited by FoxFX
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Updated the OP with the diagram in the correct placement. Had to remove the video to save the spacing it occupied, but may bring it back as a spoiler tab.

Working on a diagram for Rift Blast and Rift Surge. Will come back to discuss all possible combinations this Rift "Peek-A-Boo" can have.

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I am starting to think about adding in an additional perk to the feature of the Rift "Peek-A-Boo" style:

  • Reloading in the Material Plane while affected by the Rift buff will instantly put the ally into the Rift.

Though this is more of a reactive defensive mechanic.

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I have decided to omit creating a visual for Rift Blast as it seems the text on it is rather easy to understand the ability. However, I will have to do one for Rift Surge.

In the meantime, I am preparing an excerpt I feel may need to be said about some designs on some Warframes and what I feel concerns me most about the current Limbo.

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I like these suggestions a lot, but honestly, I like the way Limbo plays right now even more. The problem isn't so much the mechanics themselves more than the way it's implemented. Warframe is a co-op game, but the way the Rift works now counteracts this.

Why can't we have the exact same warframe we do right now but with some minor changes: allies outside the Rift do normal dmg to enemies in Rift, but 1.5x dmg if they are in the Rift with them -- but do half damage to enemies currently not in the Rift.
And Banish could work with toggling; tap it for it to banish the way it currently does, but hold it to pull enemies not in the Rift into the Rift, or push enemies in the Rift out regardless of where Limbo currently is -- maybe for a higher energy cost.
In this way, being in the Rift becomes something to be desired (energy regen, health regen with augments and dmg increase against Rifted enemies, while still able to dmg unrifted ones), and which doesn't interfere too much with other players by preventing them from actually playing the game.

I do kind of feel like the Peek-a-Boo changes mess a bit too much with the Limbo, because I personally love the way it plays right now. I just wish it didn't have to be an inconvenience for other players...
But all this is coming from a relatively new Limbo player. I don't have a lot of experience with the frame yet, but it's already a steep learning curve to master for me and I'd personally prefer not to have to completely re-learn it later.

 

Edit: In fact, why not just have Limbo function the way he does not, only for himself. He can't hurt things not on his plane of existence, but they can't hurt him either. However, non-Limbos can take 50% reduced dmg from enemies on a different plane while doing normal dmg, and then do 1.5x more damage to enemies that they are in the Rift with?
Preserve the playstyle, remove the inconveniences that make the Limbo a "trollframe".
I realize in hindsight this is probably not the best place for it, but I also don't see why we have to change the core of the frame as I agree with the person who commented on the proposed changes first: It does seem to turn Limbo into a completely new frame. And I don't get why we'd have to do that.

Edited by F3NN3CF0X
Spellchecks and other fixes.
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6 hours ago, F3NN3CF0X said:

I like these suggestions a lot, but honestly, I like the way Limbo plays right now even more. The problem isn't so much the mechanics themselves more than the way it's implemented. Warframe is a co-op game, but the way the Rift works now counteracts this.

Why can't we have the exact same warframe we do right now but with some minor changes: allies outside the Rift do normal dmg to enemies in Rift, but 1.5x dmg if they are in the Rift with them -- but do half damage to enemies currently not in the Rift.
And Banish could work with toggling; tap it for it to banish the way it currently does, but hold it to pull enemies not in the Rift into the Rift, or push enemies in the Rift out regardless of where Limbo currently is -- maybe for a higher energy cost.
In this way, being in the Rift becomes something to be desired (energy regen, health regen with augments and dmg increase against Rifted enemies, while still able to dmg unrifted ones), and which doesn't interfere too much with other players by preventing them from actually playing the game.

I do kind of feel like the Peek-a-Boo changes mess a bit too much with the Limbo, because I personally love the way it plays right now. I just wish it didn't have to be an inconvenience for other players...
But all this is coming from a relatively new Limbo player. I don't have a lot of experience with the frame yet, but it's already a steep learning curve to master for me and I'd personally prefer not to have to completely re-learn it later.

 

Edit: In fact, why not just have Limbo function the way he does not, only for himself. He can't hurt things not on his plane of existence, but they can't hurt him either. However, non-Limbos can take 50% reduced dmg from enemies on a different plane while doing normal dmg, and then do 1.5x more damage to enemies that they are in the Rift with?
Preserve the playstyle, remove the inconveniences that make the Limbo a "trollframe".
I realize in hindsight this is probably not the best place for it, but I also don't see why we have to change the core of the frame as I agree with the person who commented on the proposed changes first: It does seem to turn Limbo into a completely new frame. And I don't get why we'd have to do that.

i don't agree. i think the core of his kit is the same. At the end of the day, Limbo is a 'divide and conquer' frame. The changes to his 1 don't drastically change his style. it fits in the middle ground, and while it wouldn't send enemies into the rift anymore which would make his early levels different, post lvl 10 his play wouldn't change that much. Most of what Limbo does is pop catacylsm stasis and then spread the love with rift surge. What would change him most would be the three but i think that's a managable change as stasis would still effect enemies hit with the 1 so with a little more work you could have the same level of control

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On 2018-06-19 at 11:50 PM, LAD.Y said:

No problem 😄 currently enjoying Limbo prime.

Me too hehe. He's one of my mains, so it was hard to resist the Prime Access.

Sadly, DE didn't give us the Stasis rework on console before Prime Access...so there's a surge of bad Limbo users and angry teammates quitting every mission...*sigh*

On 2018-06-20 at 6:51 AM, FoxFX said:

 I wish not to have this thread die out just yet.

Every day I'm on the forums and see another post in this thread makes me happy. I truly hope DE considers the rift changes, it would completely change the way your allies feel when they see Limbo.

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20 hours ago, F3NN3CF0X said:

I like these suggestions a lot, but honestly, I like the way Limbo plays right now even more. The problem isn't so much the mechanics themselves more than the way it's implemented. Warframe is a co-op game, but the way the Rift works now counteracts this.

Why can't we have the exact same warframe we do right now but with some minor changes: allies outside the Rift do normal dmg to enemies in Rift, but 1.5x dmg if they are in the Rift with them -- but do half damage to enemies currently not in the Rift.
And Banish could work with toggling; tap it for it to banish the way it currently does, but hold it to pull enemies not in the Rift into the Rift, or push enemies in the Rift out regardless of where Limbo currently is -- maybe for a higher energy cost.
In this way, being in the Rift becomes something to be desired (energy regen, health regen with augments and dmg increase against Rifted enemies, while still able to dmg unrifted ones), and which doesn't interfere too much with other players by preventing them from actually playing the game.

I do kind of feel like the Peek-a-Boo changes mess a bit too much with the Limbo, because I personally love the way it plays right now. I just wish it didn't have to be an inconvenience for other players...
But all this is coming from a relatively new Limbo player. I don't have a lot of experience with the frame yet, but it's already a steep learning curve to master for me and I'd personally prefer not to have to completely re-learn it later.

 

Edit: In fact, why not just have Limbo function the way he does not, only for himself. He can't hurt things not on his plane of existence, but they can't hurt him either. However, non-Limbos can take 50% reduced dmg from enemies on a different plane while doing normal dmg, and then do 1.5x more damage to enemies that they are in the Rift with?
Preserve the playstyle, remove the inconveniences that make the Limbo a "trollframe".
I realize in hindsight this is probably not the best place for it, but I also don't see why we have to change the core of the frame as I agree with the person who commented on the proposed changes first: It does seem to turn Limbo into a completely new frame. And I don't get why we'd have to do that.

 

The whole idea of the Rift "Peek-A-Boo" style is to maintain the theme of Limbo but making it so that his kit would be far more welcoming in teams than it is now. Granted that players now can roll out of the Rift, I was seeking a way and idea to have transitioning to the Rift Plane and Material Plane much smoother and non-interuptive.

Sadly, it did involve revoking Limbo's 1st and 3rd abilities's function to banish enemies. However to maintain Limbo's "divide-and-conquer" gimmick, I did not touch Limbo's Stasis and Cataclysm as they are currently one of Limbo's most defining abilities in his kit.

So as a trade off, this idea presents a Rift play style that both Limbo in solo and teams can use while severely reducing the interruptions Limbo's Rift powers could cause in the hands of newer/inexperienced users.

There is more that I feel will need to be said and concerns about some Warframe design choices.

But do keep in mind, while this does add a feature to the Rift and changes Limbo's 1 and 3, I still can't see this as a whole new Warframe. You will still be able to do the things that Limbo could do since then, but now everyone benefits from the Rift with these changes.

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CRITIQUE ON PAST WARFRAME DESIGNS AND HOW IT RELATES TO LIMBO

There was a time I had looked into Frost somewhere between his last rework patch and I had wondered about three of his abilities: Freeze, Ice Wave, and Avalanche. I couldn't recall when, but I perceived all 3 abilities to be practically the same thing: Cold attacks. Back then, I thought to myself why have two or more abilities that can practically do the same thing when at best one of them does it better.

This is where I started to see some correlation to Limbo's Banish, Rift Surge, and Cataclysm. With the say the game is now, collecting all the Energy at a faster rate has become too easy to do with the way Focus System works now as well as the access to Energy Restores and more. Such resources I still support being part of the game, but I have carefully observed the gameplay of Limbo users as well as ask them questions about how often they would use Rift Surge.

One person felt that Rift Surge should have some means to be controlled in the topic of how it can spread from enemy to enemy. Another user though he knows how Rift Surge works out still find the ability too confusing and to be somewhat trolling to use in public missions. Another wished that Banish could bring enemies into the Rift when using the ability in the Rift as Limbo...

These changes I have suggested for Limbo's 1/3 and the added feature to the Rift were tough calls for me to bring up. Yet, I only did them in the intention of trying to bring more spotlight to the rest of Limbo's kit. As it is now, Stasis + Cataclysm has been the most consistent strategy for Limbo to use outside of a Rescue mission. If there can be a way to give more power and relevance to the rest of his kit, I am willing to explore more on what that direction could be.

I don't know if there are other players out there who feel the same concern of "some abilities being the exact same or too similar with one of them being superior/consistent." I felt this is something that Limbo might have some road to travel in the future.

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Overall, I really like this "Rift Assassin" style you have done via his passive Rift Dash + Rift Blast + Rift Surge, potentially aided by Stasis.

But my questions go towards Cataclysm and how it would interact in this new kit:

  1. If you are in your passive's Rift Dash (or an ally inside the Rift via Rift Blast), and Limbo places a Cataclysm far ahead, catching multiple enemies (but you remain outside of the Cataclysm sphere)... and now you shoot. What happens then? Since you are attacking, you will do the peek-a-boo, and thus will come out of the Rift. But the enemies inside Cataclysm are in the Rift. Will you be able hurt those enemies? Or do you have to step inside the Cataclysm (and/or use damaging abilities) to be able to hurt them?
  2. If Limbo or an ally stands inside Cataclysm, then starts shooting, will you even "peek-a-boo" from the Cataclysm's Rift and be able to shoot enemies outside of the Cataclysm? If you do peek-a-boo even while inside Cataclysm, what if you want to shoot at enemies INSIDE the Cataclysm? Limbo himself would then have no way to reliably hurt those enemies.

EDIT:
If Cataclysm is to remain basicly the same as it does now (which means enemies inside can only be hurt via abilities or by Limbo/allies attacking while inside Cataclysm), I think that'd actually be the better choice, as you'd then have 2 distinct playstyles to build upon (which you ofc can mix and match):

The Rift Assassin - Strongly utilizes his #1, #2 and #3 for snap CC + popping in and out to kill a small group in a moment's notice.
The Rift Guardian - Mainly uses #4 and #2, exactly like how it's used now (except that Limbo can't kill enemies inside Cataclysm while outside of it anymore).

Honestly, I'd love to have both of those styles for him, and your suggestions would make that come true!

Edited by Azamagon
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i don't know why people think limbo is the only frame that uses divide and conquer. gara's mass vitrify does this, frosts snowglobe does this, people are hanging on to a (while cool) gimmick that actually does more harm than good. both gara and frost can divide and conquer without being disruptive. rift pick - a- boo or what ive seen from PsiWarp are the 2 best idea's/Reworks ive seen for limbo. it just blows my mind how people want to decide how their team interacts with the game. a point in which i dont understand why DE allowed in the first place. this is what happens when you dont play the game you create.

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12 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i don't know why people think limbo is the only frame that uses divide and conquer. gara's mass vitrify does this, frosts snowglobe does this, people are hanging on to a (while cool) gimmick that actually does more harm than good. both gara and frost can divide and conquer without being disruptive. rift pick - a- boo or what ive seen from PsiWarp are the 2 best idea's/Reworks ive seen for limbo. it just blows my mind how people want to decide how their team interacts with the game. a point in which i dont understand why DE allowed in the first place. this is what happens when you dont play the game you create.

No other frame does it to the same scale and with the same level of control. If we're talking particularly about Frames that make giant walls/barriers that can block out enemies well, Frost bubble is tiny with a limited HP pool, and his ability to freeze enemies is laughably short in comparison to the likes and spammability of stasis and Cata in terms of CC. Gara comes closer but again also runs into the problem of potentially A) not fully glassing a target and B) is a wall with an albeit larger HP pool, still an HP pool and C) has the problem of attacks coming in from above depending on where/how you set it up. I categorize both as more DPS with a control/defense focus, but wouldn't say their playstyles revolve around dividing enemies, you can play both frames just as effectively without ever using their walls. In comparison, Limbo revolves entirely around the rift, in physically moving targets and himself between two different planes of existence and dominating the field by (ab)using that power. Now, I'm not saying this as a means to mitigate what you're saying in terms of disruption, just that when I think 'divide and conquer' I don't personally label either of those frames as such. Vauban would fit more in my opinion as his kit revolves around strategy and using his traps to disrupt and outwit opponents.

Secondly, while I know I'm a minority, since I long stopped trying to play public matches with Limbo since it was either a bunch of whining people who didn't really know how Limbo worked and pretended they did  complaining about things I wasn't even doing: 'don't use your 4 it freezes them' No. That's my 2 smartness, completely different ability, and wow look, see my bubble's up and THINGS ARE STILL MOVING. or 'I stepped into your rift and now i'm stuck' Just dodge out of it. or the myriad of other asinine comments, I've gotten. The Leavers. Etc etc, none of the people who, I regularly play with now, ever had any of these issues when fighting in the game, no matter what mode we were doing. Now maybe that's because I've found saint's among men, or maybe I'm not a trolly limbo player actively trying to sabotage a mission, but that makes me think there's a whole lot less wrong with Limbo as a character and a whole lot more wrong with the users and playbase at large. Am I saying Limbo's kit doesn't have the potential to be abused by the wrong people? Definitely not, but the same can be said about Nova teleporting a player a million times (and yes this happened to a friend of mine) and in terms of characters with abilities that 'dictate how a party plays' as you put it, I'd take that over doing a mission where I literally dont get the chance to do anything because of the AOE of an Equinox Day Stance running through a map, or an Ash Blade Storming everything, or and Ember Burning everything or a Banshee shouting everything into the aether. And yes those frames have been toned down but can still be potent as well. At this point I don't see what the problem is. The community got what they wanted, they can use their lovely guns in stasis and really there is hardly any point in using Banish as an ability post lvl 10 w/o Haven when you can control things a lot more efficiently just with 4 and 2.

There are plenty of frames that 'dictate' how you fight, because every frame has different set of abilities and meshing that in a party is part of what happens when in a party. It's called Teamwork.

 

Edited by LAD.Y
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On 2018-06-22 at 4:23 AM, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Me too hehe. He's one of my mains, so it was hard to resist the Prime Access.

Sadly, DE didn't give us the Stasis rework on console before Prime Access...so there's a surge of bad Limbo users and angry teammates quitting every mission...*sigh*

Every day I'm on the forums and see another post in this thread makes me happy. I truly hope DE considers the rift changes, it would completely change the way your allies feel when they see Limbo.

and that's why i mostly solo. I've worked my butt off to be more or less self sufficient in this game and I am, and it's all because it was either do that and still be able to play my Limbo without being unnecessarily ridiculed to the point that I wanted to quit a game I really really enjoyed or quit. Limbo's my favorite frame in the game. The moment he was announced years ago I knew I wouldn't really care about any other frame and so the fact that the community as a general whole wanted to act like playing Limbo was the equivalent of a Judas Kiss really made me pull back from interacting with it.

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8 minutes ago, LAD.Y said:

and that's why i mostly solo. I've worked my butt off to be more or less self sufficient in this game and I am, and it's all because it was either do that and still be able to play my Limbo without being unnecessarily ridiculed to the point that I wanted to quit a game I really really enjoyed or quit. Limbo's my favorite frame in the game. The moment he was announced years ago I knew I wouldn't really care about any other frame and so the fact that the community as a general whole wanted to act like playing Limbo was the equivalent of a Judas Kiss really made me pull back from interacting with it.

I go out of my way to not accidentally troll with him on teams, but at this point if people quit immediately when they see a limbo i don't really care. I usually build to be able to solo missions if necessary but that's because i assume the team won't be much help to begin with. Lol

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14 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Overall, I really like this "Rift Assassin" style you have done via his passive Rift Dash + Rift Blast + Rift Surge, potentially aided by Stasis.

But my questions go towards Cataclysm and how it would interact in this new kit:

  1. If you are in your passive's Rift Dash (or an ally inside the Rift via Rift Blast), and Limbo places a Cataclysm far ahead, catching multiple enemies (but you remain outside of the Cataclysm sphere)... and now you shoot. What happens then? Since you are attacking, you will do the peek-a-boo, and thus will come out of the Rift. But the enemies inside Cataclysm are in the Rift. Will you be able hurt those enemies? Or do you have to step inside the Cataclysm (and/or use damaging abilities) to be able to hurt them?
  2. If Limbo or an ally stands inside Cataclysm, then starts shooting, will you even "peek-a-boo" from the Cataclysm's Rift and be able to shoot enemies outside of the Cataclysm? If you do peek-a-boo even while inside Cataclysm, what if you want to shoot at enemies INSIDE the Cataclysm? Limbo himself would then have no way to reliably hurt those enemies.

EDIT:
If Cataclysm is to remain basicly the same as it does now (which means enemies inside can only be hurt via abilities or by Limbo/allies attacking while inside Cataclysm), I think that'd actually be the better choice, as you'd then have 2 distinct playstyles to build upon (which you ofc can mix and match):

The Rift Assassin - Strongly utilizes his #1, #2 and #3 for snap CC + popping in and out to kill a small group in a moment's notice.
The Rift Guardian - Mainly uses #4 and #2, exactly like how it's used now (except that Limbo can't kill enemies inside Cataclysm while outside of it anymore).

Honestly, I'd love to have both of those styles for him, and your suggestions would make that come true!

 

I have no intentions to remove the current effect of Cataclysm with this rework idea (doing so would be considered blasphemous). The way Cataclysm works thematically is that Limbo brings the dimensional nexus bridging the Material Plane and Rift Plane.

I started to notice that while playing Limbo entering a Cataclysm bubble while I am under Limbo's Rift Dash passive effect:

  • Cataclysm's Rift effect seems to override the Rift Dash effect and when leaving the Cataclysm you will go into the Material Plane instead.

So in my image, since Cataclysm is more of a continuous Rift, both enemies and allies will be able to hit each other in the Rift Plane.

Limbo already can exert much advantage with the crowd control the Cataclysm + Stasis combo can do.

With the RIft Surge idea, well let's say since it is designed to stack offensive buff while in the Rift Plane (and that entering the Material Plane would decay this offensive buff), that buff is going to keep on increasing as long as you stay in that Cataclysm (which would create more synergy with this Rift Surge + Cataclysm especially with Cataclysm Continuum).

 

Long story short:

Quote

The Rift Assassin - Strongly utilizes his #1, #2 and #3 for snap CC + popping in and out to kill a small group in a moment's notice.
The Rift Guardian - Mainly uses #4 and #2, exactly like how it's used now (except that Limbo can't kill enemies inside Cataclysm while outside of it anymore)

 

Having both playstyles.

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2 hours ago, FoxFX said:

 

1) I have no intentions to remove the current effect of Cataclysm with this rework idea (doing so would be considered blasphemous). The way Cataclysm works thematically is that Limbo brings the dimensional nexus bridging the Material Plane and Rift Plane.

2) I started to notice that while playing Limbo entering a Cataclysm bubble while I am under Limbo's Rift Dash passive effect:

  • Cataclysm's Rift effect seems to override the Rift Dash effect and when leaving the Cataclysm you will go into the Material Plane instead.

3) So in my image, since Cataclysm is more of a continuous Rift, both enemies and allies will be able to hit each other in the Rift Plane.

Limbo already can exert much advantage with the crowd control the Cataclysm + Stasis combo can do.

With the RIft Surge idea, well let's say since it is designed to stack offensive buff while in the Rift Plane (and that entering the Material Plane would decay this offensive buff), that buff is going to keep on increasing as long as you stay in that Cataclysm (which would create more synergy with this Rift Surge + Cataclysm especially with Cataclysm Continuum).

Long story short: Having both playstyles.

1) Ok, but that means, as I understood it, that Limbo can no longer "Cataclysm snipe" (i.e. place a Cataclysm on a group of enemies far ahead, and stay in the Rift via his Rift Dash and shoot them from afar. He now has to enter Cataclysm, since he is doing his "peek-a-boo" when attacking). While I will miss that interaction, I honestly think I'd vastly prefer to get the peek-a-boo effect a LOT more, as it would allow him to actually fight in a snappy way in any mission.

2) Yeah, it's been there ever since his rework, and it's bloody annoying. If his Rift Dash (or allies affected by Rift Blast) wasn't cancelled when enterring+leaving Cataclysm, that'd be awesome QoL.

3) Alright, so the "peek-a.boo" won't take place while inside Cataclysm because Cataclysm continuously puts you in the Rift, as I thought is how you'd leave it. That Rift Surge and Cataclysm synergy... I didn't think about that, that's awesome!

Man, I really, really wish Limbo could get this rework of yours. Like, now! Sure, while you lose some potential CC (via Banish and Rift Surge changes) and Cataclysm-sniping, you have so many other upsides in this rework:

  • It's not nearly as complicated, while still it still leaves some "advancedness" to it intact.
  • You still have non-Cataclysm+Stasis-based CC (via your Rift Blast, even more so when empowered by Stasis), which compensates quite nicely for the loss of old Banish+Rift Surge (imo, I vastly prefer your version's CC, due to the far less chaotic nature!)
  • You get a snappy and unclunky "Rift Assassin" playstyle with the whole peek-a-boo effect
  • The trolling potential almost goes out the window entirely (you only have Cataclysm still being able to block outside allied attacks, but it can STILL be counteracted, by the ally simply just stepping in to the Cataclysm, or using damaging abilities)
  • Limbo would, most likely, be considered purely beneficial to have in a team. No more of: "Urgh... a Limbo in our team? *sigh* GG *leaves group*".
  • All abilities would be something you use, frequently. While I can use Banish and Rift Surge right now, I generally don't, due to how disruptive they can be for the team. Being able to cast all abilities, and feeling all of them having a viable impact on the battlefield at any level of gameplay, is imo how a kit should be designed.
  • Haven would now be a non-disruptive and nice supportive healing augment.
  • Multiple Limbos in the same team now won't come to potentially hate each other as much anymore (due to how much they can disrupt each other, currently)


----

On to more discussion!

AUGMENTS:

Rift Blast -> Haven would now be awesome as an augment. I see no need for change. If I'd propose any change to it though, I'd make it become a health-regen instead/as well.

Cataclysm -> Cataclysmic Con
tinuum I can see remaining as it is. I could see it also removing the shrinking effect of Cataclysm (so going out and casting Rift Blast on Cataclysm to expand its size wouldn't be a necessity). That, or at least letting the duration-increase of the augment also come with a size-increase.
Alternatively, I can see an augment revamp like this:
Cataclysmic Collapse = Each enemy killed inside Cataclysm stores X% of the killed target's max shields and health as a Collapse value. When Cataclysm expires or is detonated, it's explosion damage is boosted by the total Collapse value. (Basicly, giving it a nuking potential, in similar vein to how Equinox's Maim works. Before hating: Remember that Limbo can't move his Cataclysm, but Equinox can move her Maim due to it being centerred around her position, so it won't necessarily be as kill-stealy as her ability.).
This could even be merged into the current augment, if kept at a not-too-high storage value.


Rift Surge -> What you proposed in the original post, as added ideas for it (i.e. stagger AoE + shieldgain with Rift Surge up when leaving the Rift) could actually work wonderfully as Rift Surge's new augment! The stagger range and the shields gained could also be based on how long you stayed in the Rift before exitting (so that spamming to go in and out of the Rift doesn't become the most optimal way to use it, in the form of continuous stun-lock AoE and rapid overshield-gain)

Related to it, and wether it should be stagger or knockdown:

On 2018-06-19 at 9:47 PM, LAD.Y said:

I think that idea could potentially work. Depending on the shockwave radius and make it knockdown versus stagger. Stagger would be a good place to start but stagger is what happens when stasis ends initially which as a Limbo player I can tell you only lasts long enough for you to recast stasis the moment it goes off at like 0 which is why the radial banish is useful if your cataclysm gets forcibly closed, since recasting both abilities definitely takes longer than a stagger proc.

There are 3 different staggers in the game, actually:
1) Impact-proc-stagger. This one lasts a few seconds, and causes the enemy to stumble backwards a couple of steps too.
2) Finisher-opener-stagger. This one also lasts a few seconds. Same animation is also used for the Heat-proc.

3) Melee-mini-stagger. This one only lasts like a quarter of a second or so. This is the stagger-type which Cataclysm (and most Melee and some Snipers) use. It is horrendous for AoE-CC, like in Cataclysm's case, but is great if you can use it continuously on the same target as a stunlock, as some melee weapons can do.

Use the Finisher/Heat-proc-like animation, and it would be solid CC. After all, he already proposed knockdown for Rift Blast.

Stasis -> As you mentioned before, that giving Limbo some speed bonuses (like reload + movement) while in the Rift with Stasis up, could totally work. Something related to Cold-procs, or Cold-damage could also work (as when I hear Stasis, I think of freezing stuff). Like, "killing an enemy which is affected by Stasis causes it to shatter, dealing Cold damage and Cold status to nearby enemies" and/or "when enemies come out of Stasis, they all suffer a Cold-proc". Call the augment "Deep Stasis", perhaps?

 

Edited by Azamagon
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4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

when I hear Stasis, I think of freezing stuff

I agree with everything except this. 

I'm not sure if you've ever played Mage: The awakening, but there's a type of magic there for Space manipulation that has an interesting concept for it that fits Limbo perfectly. 

I don't Limbo "freezes" things so much as he alters the dimensional space to prevent movement. Thematically, this could be anything from stretching space so that it takes miles to move in inch or halting matter from changing location. 

Really it's the same outcome, but I don't think temperature is a factor. And cold + bubble just feels like it infringes too much on Frost. Limbo deserves better than that. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I agree with everything except this. 

I'm not sure if you've ever played Mage: The awakening, but there's a type of magic there for Space manipulation that has an interesting concept for it that fits Limbo perfectly. 

 

ever play mass effect 2 and 3? stasis freezes enemies in place so you can line up headshots.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I agree with everything except this. 

I'm not sure if you've ever played Mage: The awakening, but there's a type of magic there for Space manipulation that has an interesting concept for it that fits Limbo perfectly. 

I don't Limbo "freezes" things so much as he alters the dimensional space to prevent movement. Thematically, this could be anything from stretching space so that it takes miles to move in inch or halting matter from changing location. 

Really it's the same outcome, but I don't think temperature is a factor. And cold + bubble just feels like it infringes too much on Frost. Limbo deserves better than that. 

While Limbo seems to be about the more "spacelike" timestop version of Stasis, many games/movies has Stasis in some kind of cryogenic fashion too.

That said, yeah, it might be too similar to Frost's area. It was just a random idea anyway *shrugs* 🙂

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At this point just make a new frame with these features. This heavily alters how limbo plays. Personally as a limbo main I wouldnt like to see a change to how I play him. I usually use a mix of statis, with rift surge, with cata. Although I think the Idea would be interesting. And I am not hating you for it. There are significant difference here when compared to base limbo.  I agree with @peterc3 This is a total 100 percent redesign. 

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Yeah as a Limbo main I'm not opposed to changing Banish at all. Especially if it could rift/unrift in between planes like it used to, or even just knock them down from a different plane. This would allow Limbo more wiggle room when he comes out of the rift if needed. Other than using it to rift specific targets, I only use it to knockdown enemies already inside my cataclysm for a little extra damage.

However, I don't want Rift Surge (and Rift Torrent) being changed and that's where I'm going to have to personally disagree. It provides a significant damage buff for Limbo. It is truly quite a bit! He gets great damage in missions like Interception or Excavation (like when you solo an excavator while your team does another. Or just straight solo). Even with slightly negative power strength. I think the only change rift surge needs is to be able to hold it's ability button to uncast it before it's duration ends. This would give him greater control over sending enemies out of the rift. I do stress "hold" because if just 1 new enemy walks into the rift you can recast it for way more damage just by pressing, not holding it. We could even take this one step further and cause Rift Surge to forcefully unbanish everything when it's manually uncast (that's not in cataclysm of course). This way if you banish multiple targets in different directions or in different areas you can just cast/uncast rift surge and they are back out of the rift (and not frozen somewhere across the map in stasis which happens in excavation sometimes). If the duration ends naturally or a surged enemy is killed it still acts normally.

To forcefully unbanish with rift surge would also get rid of the issues of accidentally using rift surge right as the interception is done or nearly done to kill the final enemies. It would also be useful for any other accidental banishes or rift surge banishes.

Edited by (XB1)AntiMomentum
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