Missions Have No Depth. Here's How To Fix It.

[ArktinenSieni]

These-ideas-are-awesome!

Edited August 21, 2013 by ArktinenSieni

[merryfistmas]

I get so exciting reading these ideas and then realize DE will probably never implement any of them. :(

 

That is a whole different game altogether. Deus Ex: Tenno Revolution? No thanks, this is primarily an action-oriented game. A lot of people wouldn't be playing it if it was like that.

That sounds like the greatest game never made.

 

EDIT: and to everyone saying this would make farming harder, presumably cargo bays and ship captains would have cool loot (at least OP said you could loot cargo bays). Also his idea was to still make rushing viable, you just have to find a computer first. you don't HAVE to explore every room for an hour.

 

 

All of the above needs to happen. This game has SOOOO much potential. If it was fully realized I wouldn't be choosing to play Call of Duty over Warframe would I? Alas, most of this potential will not be realized for more these reasons.

 

1. Free to play. As this game is free to play, The money it would take to implement those features would most likely take a entirely new engine which would not be anywhere near cheap.

 

2. Graphics. You are suggesting destructibility, hundreds of entity existing at once, etc... They need to make sure this game will run on a average budget computer, Those feature only run on higher budget gaming computers.

 

3. Time. This game is scheduled to release on PS4. That's only a few months away and this would take quite a while to program, produce, polish, and debug.

 

Now don't get me wrong I love your ideas, and I would die to see them placed in the game, but unless a miracle occurs I doubt that these drastic changes will have a chance to be implemented.

 Also this, he's right, unfortunately.

Edited August 21, 2013 by merryfistmas

[Necromonger2100]

 Also this, he's right, unfortunately.

I don't want to be but I probably am. However if they were to keep the game in beta for the first year on PS4, Then there would be a shot at this happening.

[Kielix7]

Pretty good list, pretty good way to fix.

I had some of these ideas to fix these issues, but I like yours more.

[PettiTheYeti]

So much potential for broken scripts, bugs, missing something important, etc. So much more potential for truly epic missions.

 

DE, work on this.

[Someguy316]

I like the idea of an updating mini map but that's also because I'm not a fan of real-time mini maps. I feel there could be something done for players who just try and rush the level; maybe have some sort of "lobby" game type category where you can set rush, material collecting, or something else as the type of game.

[Boatsniper]

I like the idea of an updating mini map but that's also because I'm not a fan of real-time mini maps. I feel there could be something done for players who just try and rush the level; maybe have some sort of "lobby" game type category where you can set rush, material collecting, or something else as the type of game.

Players can still rush. All they need is the layout and the objective location, which they can easily find at a computer terminal.

[Kielix7]

Yesterday I experimented with making this game harder by removing the HUD.

 

It was actually a success.

[Paradox52525]

I think some "trap" style events could go a long way to breaking up the tedium.  They'd need to be action oriented and relatively short though, and would ideally leverage the game's awesome movement system.  If people like rushing, *make* them rush, with appropriate incentives or penalities IE:

1. You enter a large room and the enemies seal the doors and start flooding it with coolant/lava/badstuff.  To escape you have to parkour up the walls to escape through a vent.  If you can't, your dead body is placed at the top (maybe your allies can reach you in time).

2. You're sealed in a room with a large security force, and can't open the doors until you kill a mini-boss type enemy and his minions.

3. The enemies could try to eject/destroy a part of their ship with you on it (they're that desperate to get rid of you).  You have to traverse and escape that part of the ship before it goes.

4. Even something as simple as "they are closing their reinforce blast doors on the other side of this room.  You have 30 seconds to stop them." - if you fail, you have to take a longer/harder route through the level. 

 

Stuff like the above should be pretty easy to include in the randomely generated missions/tilesets.   If you're undetected, you could skip these events, which would give a little bit of incentive for stealth.  There could maybe be mod/material rewards for successfully completing them. 

[M4g1kz]

I think you, Boatsniper will enjoy the proposal following as much as any...

 

This game does have a struggle with how deep the actual mission is (Retaking the Origin), and the depth of it's lore itself.  Unless you read the forums are have looked into Dark Sector, you lack nearly half of the knowledge of gameplay and what the actual goal is.  When you ask someone to describe Warframe, they kind of scratch their head and are like, "Uh...Hurrr Space-Ninjas!"  If that's all this game is to them?  They are the burn-out community for one, and secondly, they don't care for the depth as much as it's complexity, they enjoy the smooth gameplay and mechanics.

 

Therefore to reference some posts in this thread about how we are (very) limited to missions types, there would be a simple solution to abide both parties in reality.  People want hard missions, some want just MORE for VARIETY's sake, and some like them how they are but would like some more reasons to look around and enjoy the beautiful tiles they've spent time into (truly speaking).  To simply just make all tile sets set in stone would of course cause too much repetition and consequently R.I.P. Warframe, but if you created a unique mission type (two birds with one stone) called Adventure or Quest (Suggested names vary but the idea is clear), where they will tinker around the ship with caution to figure out what's going on (since you lose connections with Lotus), or be briefed before hand.  On topic re-post of a thousand Warframe members....we need more Lotus sound files, I don't want to be told on *@$%ing Phobos, that the "SHIP" is in lockdown....

 

As for the in-depth tile sets I fully agree and thus everyone should, it's logical, really fun to see Warframes DE's tile sets, and it could pose for a more much 'interesting' per say, way to farm materials or end up with a higher-end reward for exploration.  Let's say for instance, that you run into the ships engine room, what's one resource easily attributed to disabling or 'looting' from an engine?  Real-life terms even, "Salvage," easy rewards for exploration and therefore expanding content along with depth with little complexity.  Or let's say the Reactor of the ship could reward high content of "Circuits," or "Polymer Bundles."  This list of expanding your in-game content with depth is easily implemented through the creations of said rooms by Boatsniper.

 

I conclude that in-depth missions isn't a hard concept and wouldn't scare away much or any of the community, thus inviting some back or providing more content for the gamer currently (mind you is never a bad idea).  Also, to just have that orange dot is the issue, I'd say we add those kinds of perks to our Sentinel mods, since we have two extra spots all the time anyway, allowing them to have the downloaded layout of the map, and only through certain scenarios playing out (like a more in-depth hacking system [only accessible outside of lockdowns] to access such data) would be a more logical way to follow how the system and lore works.  Overall the little depth proposed in such detail by Boatsniper is highly encouraged to read / propose further feedback, this content/depth issue is direly becoming an issue for long-term players.

 

P.S. On a side note - Since the community is nearly always having a "This-is-too-easy/hard," whine-fest, we as part of the community should be pushing for options of choosing a difficulty (Room Leader) for each mission, for everyone can get their fix at their level of experience or preference.

 

**Edit: typos

Edited August 31, 2013 by M4g1kz

[Boatsniper]

-snip-

Thank you for posting!

 

When it comes to games in a broad sense, not a lot of them have any real depth or even complexity. TES: Skyrim is a prime example of a game containing neither of the two. All it has is content and some variation, which both can be increased with the use of mods. Dwarf Fortress is an example of the opposite. The game's complexity and depth is so astronomically huge to the point where it scares people off. I don't blame them.

 

Warframe is on the side of Skyrim when it comes to this, which is not good at all for the game's longevity. It has plenty of content and decent variation, but no depth or complexity whatsoever. Games that have the former but not the latter I consider to be

games, such as Wold of Warcraft and most RPG's, which is okay, but not necessarily good. In Warframe's case, the Skinner Box has the game in a choke-hold. You play to unlock content and nothing else. Since it is a Free to Play title, this can be overlooked to an extent, but what if that isn't enough for the player? A shiny new gun is nice and all, but what's the point in it if you run through the same missions over and over again? This is where the game falls short of being great. It doesn't matter in the slightest how much content is added or how flashy the powers are or even how balanced everything is. If the missions are not an engaging and unique experience where you can rush the objective, leave the ship a smoldering mess, or even go through undetected, then people will not continue to invest their time or money into this game.

[Kachocalvo]

I like the idea. But it feels like a completely different game. To be honest, if I was looking for that, I would not be playing this game.

[Boatsniper]

I like the idea. But it feels like a completely different game. To be honest, if I was looking for that, I would not be playing this game.

And what alternative would you suggest, or would you rather have the missions stay as empty, static shells?

[Grandarex]

Cool idea, but of course, easier said than done. 

 

Implementing a concept of this magnitude would require an overhaul to the entire game, such as 3D map feature, ship design, rework of the entire randomized tile system, etc. 

 

If a huge publishing company like Activision, Sony, or God forbid, EA bought this game from DE, maybe then they might have the budget to do it. 

 

But right now, it doesn't seem like we can expect any huge changes anytime soon. 

[Kachocalvo]

And what alternative would you suggest, or would you rather have the missions stay as empty, static shells?

 

Alternative? What i said is that the game you are describing sounds cool, but to my understanding is a game totally different from Warframe, only with the same looks and weapons. Game mechanic and playingstyles would be different. I would love to play that game, but it's not this one. 

[Boatsniper]

Alternative? What i said is that the game you are describing sounds cool, but to my understanding is a game totally different from Warframe, only with the same looks and weapons. Game mechanic and playingstyles would be different. I would love to play that game, but it's not this one.

So you would rather have the missions stay as they are? We all know this cannot happen if Warframe wants to survive long term.

Another problem the game has is its semi-photorealistic graphics/aesthetics. Sure, it looks nice, but does it make sense for an Ogris to leave the environment completely undamaged? Nothing in the environment is interactive. How many times have you walked into a new room with a big reactor or structure and thought "I want to do something to that," then realizing you can't? It's happened to me a hundred times, and it gets more depressing each time I think of it.

[TaTooKa]

A simplified version of the OP's idea would be a nice compromise.

 

Right now missions are repetitive and dull, not to mention that they give lame rewards. They need a rework and I think these ideas go in the right direction.

[Kachocalvo]

So you would rather have the missions stay as they are? We all know this cannot happen if Warframe wants to survive long term.

 

A simplified version of the OP's idea would be a nice compromise.

 

Thanks, this is what I wanted to express. Your ideas are nice and cool, but are more than a change in the game, they are almost the core of a new different game. I am with you in thinking the game must evolve, but such a radical change in gameplay (almost total freedom of action in the mission)would be too much. But yes, some real changes that make the missions more unpredictible and less repetitive are necessary, and your ideas are a good starting point.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Kachocalvo

[Ventose]

another way to do this is to give each system a mini story, so that the missions tie into each other and follow in a meaningfull order: you enter the system and steal vital info about the faction that operates in that system and details of their operations, then you go on and sabotage their equipment kidnap their officers or lead researchers, reroute their ships from orbit to a collision course, etc. and in the midst of the chaos you created you go and assassinate the officer responsible for the system: the boss.

this could all be done by simply rearranging the missions and adding more lines for the Lotus, perheaps adding proper skybox for each system too, I think it'd really make a difference if in all missions in a system I'd get to see that particualr planet the ship is supposed to orbit around as opposed to the pale moon that's everywhere from Mercury to Pluto.

you're idea is good but would be hard to implement, it's easyer to make more sound files for the Lotus in which she explaines that: she scanned the ship, found an unguarded entry point close to your objective, hacked the system and sealed off other parts of the ship so the whole crew doesn't descend upon you, guides you to your objective then off the ship back to safety, the end.

another idea marginally related: instead of revives make the Lotus step in to save your butt. it seem silly that you can bleed out and die then all of a sudden jump up and go on as if nothing happened, instead when you hit rock bottom a counter could appear saying you have five sconds to get to cover, stay there for a few seconds till the Lotus activates some sub system in your frame restoring your health (the number of times per day this could be done can still be limited). she could also override turrets and such to aid you for a short time and decimate your oppononts cuz it's just wrong to get up and continue agains a force that already took you down once.

point being: make the Lotus a bigger part of the game experience, this would give great depth to the game imo. regarding the OP, i agree with you in bettering the game but what you decribe goes against the whole concept of the game: you are a tenno operative, you dont go in without a laid out plan (roaming freely on the ship), you are the instrument of the Lotus performing specific tasks she gives you following the plan and path she gives you. you are an efficient killing machine not an adventurer.

exploration or free roam should be a new mission type: unknown area, map the ship; they could even name these missions dark sector :)

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ventose

[Kachocalvo]

@Boatsniper

 

I've been thinking about your proposal. As stated before, a simplified version of your ideas could be what this game needs - more freedom, but still with defined objectives to acomplish.

 

An and idea crossed my mind - how about alternative objectives? Take as an example a simple sabotage mission. Instead of running your way to a fixed objective following the indicator and then getting the f... out, your team is deployed on the ship/planet and you receive your orders, "There are X vital spots in this ship/complex - 1,2... find and destroy as many as you can". The only indicator avaible from start is the exit point, marked in blue. As you go near an objective (let's say 5-6 rooms away from your current position), you are informed by Lotus and it is marked on the minimap. You only need to destroy it and get to exit zone.

 

Where's the difference to what we have now? That there is more tan one direction you can go deeper into the complex/ship, so you are not forced to follow a given path.

 

And now the most interesting change - instead of retreating to exit point, you can continue deeper into the ship/complex in search of more objectives. As you get close to the second one and it is marked on your minimap, enemy lvl scales, making it progressively harder to eliminate all objectives. The lvl increase is not triggered by time or waves but fixed, an increase for each objective located. if you finish them all, or when you have enough, you can make your way to the exit room to finish the mission.

 

And, of course, secondary objectives can be triggered as usual - lotus could inform you it has located a prisoner, or data you must obtain, etc.

 

Mission rewards should change, too - the better your performance was, the better the prize (it's not the same to blow a power node than blowing two power nodes, engineering control room and an arsenal, although both ends are a success).

 

To me, this seems a simplified version of your idea - freedom of choice instead of forced paths, but still following predefined orders and objectives. And a bit more challenge.

 

Your opinions? Critics? Thoughts?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Kachocalvo

[Zero_Fruit]

A simplified version of the OP's idea would be a nice compromise.

 

Right now missions are repetitive and dull, not to mention that they give lame rewards. They need a rework and I think these ideas go in the right direction.

 

I agree with this.

What I would like to see is something simpler, such as bonus objectives that can be completed for a bonus/additional effects instead of the random secondary objectives we have now. For example, letting the player destroy the reactor before working toward the main objective would make it darker (tying into the stealth rework if we ever get it) and easier to sneak around people.

[Boatsniper]

-snip-

 

Your opinions? Critics? Thoughts?

So in short, making exploration actually mean something. A simplified version of my idea might work out better, like what you suggested. However, I would still like some form of destructible/interactive environments. What's the point of a giant contraption that serves no purpose whatsoever?

 

If I could touch on the issue with the early tilesets (Corpus Ship and Grineer Asteroid); they are horribly out dated. The Corpus Ship has never gotten an expansion or modification since the Alpha. Similar facts can be said about the Grineer Asteroid map. These two maps were the first tilesets in the game, and it is painfully obvious. You're running through the same rooms over and over again but starting from a different door (sometimes the same door). If you're lucky, you won't encounter this on the Grineer Galleon map or the Void, and maybe the Corpus Outpost if you're really lucky.

 

In short, the existing maps need an expansion with some form of depth at some point in the future.

[Teknique0]

Well... this thread is so interesting i'll be breaking my fingers from all of +1's im about to give out.

[Kachocalvo]

However, I would still like some form of destructible/interactive environments.

 

That's out of question. I want it too (at least, the destrucible enviroment). And I'm sure sooner or later DE are gonna implement it.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Kachocalvo

[Eravel]

Linear, yeah. Everyone's getting tired of it. I think it's safe to say most of us would love to have some choices in how we wish to accomplish the mission. We can go for the bridge, as said previously. For example, capture missions. Let's say, we have no bloody idea where he is. From here, players have choices of what they wish to do. Storm the bridge to gain control? Perfectly fine. Another option could be sabotaging the engines/life support. Riskier, yes, but it could put some fear into the captive and possibly cause him to panic, running about and revealing his location. Hm... another quick suggestion. If we could sabotage and choose where we wish to go, a new screen could be added when a mission starts. It gives an overview of the ship you're infiltrating. The Lotus may or may not have provided you with information regarding the approximate locations of the engines, crew quarters, bridge, all the parts of a ship. From here, the team votes where to deploy. You could target the bridge, smashing into it with a boarding pod in order to take the ship by storm. Another idea could be taking a rather quiet corner of the ship to deploy in if you wish to take the ship stealthily. The location where the team decides to enter in has consequences of how the mission proceeds. Now.... you can put this together. Storm the bridge, make it clear that you're there and wish to take the target hostage. You could even hit the intercom and broadcast for the target to surrender. Chances are, he won't surrender and make a dash for either the soldiers onboard or the escape pods. The team could cut off the target's escape route before capturing him. Okay, I'm done (think i rambled faaaar too long there). Just throwing a couple examples.

 

TL;DR: We should be able to choose how we wish to proceed with missions, instead of simply running down ONE pathway to ONE destination.