Update 23: Mods, Forma, and Destruction of Builds

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

you wanna know what really grinds my gears?

 

My inaros? yeah, ya know....the unkillable sand king himself? the one, when paired with any kavat with hunter mods and the like literally can't die?

 

mine has 2 forma and is basically immortal as long as my smeeta, Karma is tailing him and he's immortal without him as well.....i'll need 9 FORMA to be able to fit on the 3 umbral mods.

 

9. FORMA.

Inaros will become my most expensive frame in my arsenal and that's absurd(but it'll be worth it for over 8k health? i guess?)

[gevec]

13 hours ago, Oreades said:

Eh the stats on the new mods are kinda meh, most of them don't compare to the Primed variants. 

I guess they will be more relevant when DE adds sentient Tiles/Faction which will likely be Soon™

Which will probably also usher in the new Polarizer that will be able to add Umbra polarities to frames/weapons. 

The stats are really good as long as you use all Umbral/Sacrifical Mods together. 

They have a set bonus that increases the Value of each mod, the more Mods of the set are used. 

[DjKaplis]

I disagree on umbra polarities, those mods are created for umbra and umbra weapons so if you want to fit them on regular frames and weapons it is only logical that you should have difficulties in doing so.

 

Hope the affinity problem gets fixed tho.

 

And exalted weapons - not too happy about extra forma I have to spend but I like very much that now we have more freedom on regular weapons.

[master_of_destiny]

So, I've read both defenses and criticism.  Allow me to weigh in from the point of someone who was around much earlier, took time off, and has seen the arc of this game.

 

Exalted weapons is a way to have people sink more resources into what they already had.  It is cloaked as a player choice option, but per the usual it is not.  Last time DE did this they gave us an affinity booster and some forma to work with, but this time they cloaked the affinity boost with the update and are asking for us to either invest forma or buy them.  It's a bit sleazy, but nothing new.  There was a time that you had to farm the mods to use warframe powers (imagine starting with Loki and no invisibility).  There was a time that you would have had to farm thousands of vitality and serration mods to get what you needed.  DE shifts things in small ways, which always seem to install grind.

Umbra mods are a joke.  They set forward the arc of the "story" that will be told, and are another set bonus like the hunter/vigilante/gladiator sets.  These mods are either slightly weaker duplicates of what is already available, or direct duplicates whose existence lies in the set bonus.  Excal is the poster boy for the game, so it gets first crack at the mods.  They are slightly weaker than the primed mods they mirror, cost huge amounts of resources to max, and rebalance the game such that Excalibur Prime is even less relevant.  I'd be much angrier if I had bought in during beta, and knew everyone could get a frame that functionally made what I had less unique.

 

My larger issue is the bonus offered here.  There's virtually zero current content which will use it.  This means either DE is insane, or their plans will be to use it in the near future.  Based upon the supposed mines from the game, Venus is Cetus 1.1 with a Corpus flavor.  That's the focus for this year, so what does this leave us?  Either we'll have the "surprise" of a substantial increase in the number of a previously insignificant enemy type ruined, or a frame that required insane investment sitting in storage for a long time (until content catches up to teased items).  Neither option is particularly ideal.

 

If DE wanted to fix this, they wait a month for the hype of The Sacrifice to die down.  They bring back the acolytes, and use the events of The Sacrifices to drive a narrative point of reinforcements being needed with the revelations.  Acolyte event recurrence is extended beyond the usual period, buying DE some deserved time off, and allowing the boosters/forma to have players come back to the same power levels as before the change.  Win for DE (rest and low impact community interest), win for the players ("free" stuff to offset the effective increase in grind), and win for new players (you get to boost progress enough to maybe experience the new content).

What I predict is nothing.  DE has released the new hotness, and will spend the time patching and fixing what they perceive to be broken.  The community will be angry, DE will claim that people are bashing them as developers, nothing will change.  At one time I thought these forums had the potential to change things.  After taking two years off, coming back, and seeing that the new content was placed atop still fundamentally broken systems I've lost enthusiasm and optimism.  This game is supposed to be a power fantasy with grind.  It's grind where any power fantasy is quelched by having to either cheese high level content, or be satisfied with the sometimes gigantic investment into things you'll never use (looking at you Sibear and Hema).  I choose to finish my grind, and take a vacation until enough content piles back up to be fun.  Almost 10 million focus at 0.2 million a day is all you need to say to highlight the grind (yes, that's pre-update with MR*5000 added, but that's way newer than the focus we had for the longest time).

[Kthal]

I'm very concerned about the direction Umbral mods are taking things. If any further Umbra frames are added, player must either be given the ability to add Umbra polarities to non-Umbra equipment, or Umbra equipment will remain significantly superior, restricting variety, and effectively becoming required to participate in Sentient related content. It will end up like how Madurai Void Strike is "required" to handle Eidolons, good luck finding an Eidolon squad without having it unlocked.

For a comparison as to how bad things could get - Imagine if Primed mods had a "Prime polarity", and only Prime frames could use them properly.

That said, simply applying a Forma to get an Umbra polarity on a non-Umbra piece of equipment would take the magic out of it. To fix that, I'd say that some Exilus Adapter-like upgraded Forma should be added as a requirement for installing Umbra polarities on non-Umbra equipment, ideally earned sparsely through Sentient content. To describe it another way, a per-Forma consumable which temporarily makes the frame count as Umbra while polarizing.

 

Warframe's greatest strength as a game is the customisation of gear via mods and cosmetics. Umbra, as it is currently handled, is completely contrary to the core of the modding system.

[dopey_opi]

I get the argument about Umbral mods supposed to be 'uniquely Umbral' and only fully useful for Umbra frames.  But it could take years for even the original warframes to get Umbra versions, to say nothing of the frames released since (and the other new frames that will be released over those years).  Assuming Umbras get released at roughly the same rate Primes do, we could be at this for the next decade.  I'll be in my 40's before we see a Harrow Umbra.  Will Warframe even last that long?  And if Umbral mods are so specially 'Umbra'... why make them equippable on regular frames at all?

I don't get the 'power creep' argument.  Most of the Umbral mods are carbon copies of existing mods, their only real differences being set bonuses, polarity and drastically higher mod drain.  In some cases, like in Sacrificial Pressure's case, the Primed Pressure Point equivalent is clearly still the superior option.  Where's the power creep in that?  Additional damage against a rarely-encountered enemy type - damage that is still overshadowed by the existing meta?  Umbral Intensify may be better than generic Intensify.  A whole additional 14%, in exchange for an enormous drain.  Stop making mountains out of molehills, by that logic every time a Primed mod gets released the 'power creep' crowd should be up in arms (they're not).

We should absolutely be able to forma Umbral polarities.  But, to keep the full extent of the bonuses limited to Umbra frames, I'd concede that perhaps Umbral polarities on non-Umbral frames shouldn't be as efficient.  Instead of reducing drain by 50%, they should reduce drain by 25%.  I'd also be satisfied with the requirement of a special kind of forma (let's call it an Umbra Forma) required to add said polarity - and to make sure you earn it, lock those Umbral Forma behind something that makes us work for it.

[Kthal]

1 minute ago, dopey_opi said:

Additional damage against a rarely-encountered enemy type

A whole additional 14%, in exchange for an enormous drain.

We should absolutely be able to forma Umbral polarities.  But, to keep the full extent of the bonuses limited to Umbra frames, I'd concede that perhaps Umbral polarities on non-Umbral frames shouldn't be as efficient.  Instead of reducing drain by 50%, they should reduce drain by 25%.  I'd also be satisfied with the requirement of a special kind of forma (let's call it an Umbra Forma) required to add said polarity - and to make sure you earn it, lock those Umbral Forma behind something that makes us work for it.

+33% (per mod) damage against a faction which the ending of Sacrifice suggests will be fought in large quantities. That's not a small bonus.

With the full set, Umbral Intensify gives +66% power strength, and effectively +220% health and a decent chunk of armour. On top of that, 11% Tau resist, whatever it is, looks to be a significant bonus. (Speculating, it's either damage resistance, slows Sentients gaining resistance to your damage, or resistance to some other Sentient-related debuff.)

The Sentient bonuses on the mods will either trivialise Sentient content while using them, or the Sentient content will be balanced around the mods in question, making them effectively mandatory for said content.

Reduced drain isn't a terrible idea, but it really doesn't fix the core problem. These mods are set mods, encouraging use of the full set, designed to limit you using the full set and stop you gaining the full benefit on anything other than Umbra. They're not just better than the alternatives, but they're even better than that on Umbra.

[dopey_opi]

3 minutes ago, Kthal said:

+33% (per mod) damage against a faction which the ending of Sacrifice suggests will be fought in large quantities. That's not a small bonus.

With the full set, Umbral Intensify gives +66% power strength, and effectively +220% health and a decent chunk of armour. On top of that, 11% Tau resist, whatever it is, looks to be a significant bonus. (Speculating, it's either damage resistance, slows Sentients gaining resistance to your damage, or resistance to some other Sentient-related debuff.)

The Sentient bonuses on the mods will either trivialise Sentient content while using them, or the Sentient content will be balanced around the mods in question, making them effectively mandatory for said content.

Reduced drain isn't a terrible idea, but it really doesn't fix the core problem. These mods are set mods, encouraging use of the full set, designed to limit you using the full set and stop you gaining the full benefit on anything other than Umbra. They're not just better than the alternatives, but they're even better than that on Umbra.

Even if you stack +66% against Sentients using both Sacrificial Mods you're only fractionally better than Primed Pressure Point, and you had to use two mods to get there, to boot.  With things like Rivens Maiming Strike and Blood Rush, Sacrificial Steel was obsolete the minute it dropped.  There are better - and far more powerful - options already in the game.  You'd still need to armor-strip with your Operator periodically to keep it viable.  For dedicated min-maxers I suppose that could be considered an improvement but it's a marginal one at best, and only really effective against a single faction.  Oh and did I mention said bonus is already offset by an increased mod drain?

Limiting yourself to the set is a drawback in its own right.  If you're dead set on that bonus, that bonus had better be pretty good and some minor damage resistance/gain against a single faction doesn't measure up.  Limiting yourself to a set means a dedicated build, usable only in situations that merit said build.  However, there are some areas I can see throwing an Umbral set mod in to stand alone is quite valid from a build perspective.  Take Nova for example.  She needs 145% strength to maximize the slowing effect on molecular prime.  Prior to Umbral Intensify, you had Intensify + Power Drift (drawback: takes two mod slots), a Rank 4 Blind Rage (drawback: -25% efficiency) or a Rank 8 Transient Fortitude (drawback: -22% duration).  44% from Umbral Intensify may not quite max that out, but 1% off is close enough.  I don't need to add Umbral Vitality to get what i want, nor Umbral Fiber because putting armor on a Nova is just stupid.  Not every frame makes equal use of every mod, and that includes Umbral mods, so saying you have to commit to the set to reap any reward is myopic and wrong.

 

[Kthal]

3 minutes ago, dopey_opi said:

Even if you stack +66% against Sentients using both Sacrificial Mods you're only fractionally better than Primed Pressure Point

Simply wrong.

Primed Pressure Point gives +165% damage. That's a total of 265% base damage before all other mods. Against Sentients, there are no standalone banes to consider.

Sacrificial Pressure gives +110% damage, for a total of 210% base damage. That's then multiplied by 1.33x by the Sentient bane, for an effective 279.3% damage.

It's a bit trickier to make a direct comparison when using both mods because that's two mod slots, but the bonus is much higher, at effectively 348.6% damage against Sentients. 348.6% compared to 265% is a significant bonus. (And if later Sentients are vulnerable to status effects, damage procs double dip on banes.)

[dopey_opi]

13 minutes ago, Kthal said:

Simply wrong.

Primed Pressure Point gives +165% damage. That's a total of 265% base damage before all other mods. Against Sentients, there are no standalone banes to consider.

Sacrificial Pressure gives +110% damage, for a total of 210% base damage. That's then multiplied by 1.33x by the Sentient bane, for an effective 279.3% damage.

It's a bit trickier to make a direct comparison when using both mods because that's two mod slots, but the bonus is much higher, at effectively 348.6% damage against Sentients. 348.6% compared to 265% is a significant bonus. (And if later Sentients are vulnerable to status effects, damage procs double dip on banes.)

You're still getting 66% (roughly) additional damage, and again that's against a single enemy type.  That's 2/3 base damage... mathematically, that's called 'fractional'.  So no, I'm not wrong in slightest.  And once again, you'd have to use two mod slots to get there.  I could greatly exceed your calculated bonus by swapping out Sacrificial Steel for Blood Rush and building up a multiplier, which everyone knows how to do.  Why take two mods for a minor bonus when I can use one mod for 'good enough' base damage and then another that knocks your bonus out of the park?  We haven't even touched on riven mods yet.

The fact, even though you don't like it, is that in the current and foreseeable future Sacrificial Pressure and Sacrificial Steel are niche mods with niche uses.

Edited June 16, 2018 by dopey_opi

[Kthal]

2 minutes ago, dopey_opi said:

You're still getting 66% (roughly) additional damage

Banes are not additive with base damage mods. They are multiplicative. I just demonstrated the numbers for Umbral Pressure alone compared to Primed Pressure Point against Sentients, and by itself it is better.

Against Sentients, Sacrificial Pressure puts you to an effective 279.3% damage, where Primed Pressure Point only puts you to 265%.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Kthal

[dopey_opi]

And I whipped out the calculator to get the exact figures for the multiplicative mods - like you did - and got the ratios.  Sacrificial Pressure alone gives a 33% max bonus, not a 66% max bonus.  You'd have to also use Sacrificial Steel for the 66% bonus.  Maybe you should actually read the mod descriptions, and then come back and continue this argument.

[Kthal]

Just now, dopey_opi said:

And I whipped out the calculator to get the exact figures for the multiplicative mods - like you did - and got the ratios.  Sacrificial Pressure alone gives a 33% max bonus, not a 66% max bonus.  You'd have to also use Sacrificial Steel for the 66% bonus.  Maybe you should actually read the mod descriptions, and then come back and continue this argument.

How about you read my comment instead. I said at 33% bonus, with just Sacrificial Pressure, it's still better. I am ignoring Sacrificial Steel from the calculations.

[dopey_opi]

Good job on the edit on your most recent post, bringing things back to reality.  Because you were waaaaay off.

While we're on the task of putting things into perspective, Sacrificial Pressure alone gives you an 8% damage bonus vs. Primed Pressure Point, against Sentients.  Against all other factions, Primed Pressure Point is far and away the superior option.

All the more reason to let us use forma for Umbral polarities.  Using different builds for different enemy types is nothing new, we've been doing that for ages.  Why change it up so we need entirely new frames to handle a certain enemy type?

Set Mods aren't exactly the oldest feature to the game but we've been using individual set mods, independent of other mods from their given set, in our builds for a while too.  Hunter Munitions is a great example.  My point is that you don't need to use the entire set unless you want the bonus to the full set.  We've never been forced to use the whole set.  In your hypothetical situation where we'll be dealing with swarms of nothing but sentient enemies, sure a full set on Sacrificial or Umbral bonuses could be helpful but that's not going to be the only content in the game, nor will the use of said set be absolutely required.  Of the bonuses available from Sacrificial and Umbral mods now, I already have builds that offer better survivability and more damage - yes, even against sentients.  So unless the stats on these mods are going to be dramatically buffed, my point that they're niche mods still stands.

[NekroArts]

18 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Some of these mods are extremely important to slot onto most Warframes. The synergy between Umbral Vitality and Fiber can be useful on Valkyr, Nidus, Inaros, and more.

1) Warframe and weapon slots should be able to be polarized as an Umbra slot. This is simple. Players should be able to polarize any slot on gear with the new polarity. It promotes build diversity and adds a layer of grind worth both a veteran's and new player's time.

These two points bothers me a lot. After seeing the stats of these mod and set bonuses, I had different kinds of feelings for them and one of them is sticking to me hard: "Ok, how will these mods not scream as 'mandatory'?" Not only are the base stats exactly the same as their vanilla counterpart (Vitality and Steel Fiber), but they're better than them when put together. With how we go on about having the most optimal build I really don't see "promotes build diversity" side to this.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by NekroArts

[-Kittens-]

18 hours ago, allibound said:

I'm honestly shocked the forums aren't burning in the wake of a horde of angry, frothing, pictchfork-toting players screaming about the 20+ forma we've effectively lost.  I'm at a loss for words at how much of a setback this is for me in time and effort.  All this wait for a quest I did casually in 1 evening and now a month-long grind just to get back to where I was.  Crap like this is why I stop playing for months on end, and why almost none of my friends ever log in anymore.

When plague star literally throws forma at you in bulk, it's kind of hard to lament the loss of a milestone when it's literally raining forma. Spent the first "day" of PS earning the event uniques, and the rest of the time was spent on it earning 11 TendillionNefillionAladillion forma, and the event has occurred twice, and is likely to swing around again by the end of summer, nevermind relics.

Since the relic/void rework, earning forma is a literal nonissue, and fifteen minutes in Akkad/Hieracon/Sedna/Other grineer place I forgot or thirty minutes in Taveuni where you kill two rocks with one bird will have you back to max. There is no month long grind, should you choose to educate yourself in the optimal method to use forma in the first place.

People asked for branching content with threads back to regular gameplay and that's exactly what you got.

[Kurambik]

19 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

1) Warframe and weapon slots should be able to be polarized as an Umbra slot. This is simple. Players should be able to polarize any slot on gear with the new polarity. It promotes build diversity and adds a layer of grind worth both a veteran's and new player's time.

A friend contacted support and their reply was that it was intended that the Umbral Set would be somewhat exclusive to Umbra and that there are no plans to make the "Umbra polarity" available for other frames (I am not agreeing with this statement because I don't, I am just putting it here).

In terms of implementing it, I was thinking that we get a random chance to get a Vitruvian to drop on Lua maps (like ayatans) and have it be able to install Umbra polarities and can also offer some more lore.

[--END--Rikutatis]

4 hours ago, dopey_opi said:

I don't get the 'power creep' argument.  Most of the Umbral mods are carbon copies of existing mods, their only real differences being set bonuses, polarity and drastically higher mod drain.  In some cases, like in Sacrificial Pressure's case, the Primed Pressure Point equivalent is clearly still the superior option.  Where's the power creep in that?  Additional damage against a rarely-encountered enemy type - damage that is still overshadowed by the existing meta?  Umbral Intensify may be better than generic Intensify.  A whole additional 14%, in exchange for an enormous drain.  Stop making mountains out of molehills, by that logic every time a Primed mod gets released the 'power creep' crowd should be up in arms (they're not).

Put together it basically goes like this: instead of 30% power strength from intensify, you'll get 66%. You also have the option to replace your transient fortitude in order to not lose any duration and gain even more power strength (basically this replaces a corrupted mod with more beneifts and no drawbacks LOL). That's power creep, that's not a carbon copy. Same goes for health and armor, instead of 440% health you'll have 770%. And instead of 110% armor you'll have 192%. Primed mods are very much power creep as well, and I see no point to keep adding them to the game until they start giving us higher level enemies to fight and more challenging content. All MMOs have power creep, like WOW, difference is that they keep releasing more difficult (higher level) content each year to use that power creep on. It becomes a cycle. In Warframe we get the extra power, but keep fighting the same enemies. 

[dopey_opi]

31 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Put together it basically goes like this: instead of 30% power strength from intensify, you'll get 66%. You also have the option to replace your transient fortitude in order to not lose any duration and gain even more power strength (basically this replaces a corrupted mod with more beneifts and no drawbacks LOL). That's power creep, that's not a carbon copy. Same goes for health and armor, instead of 440% health you'll have 770%. And instead of 110% armor you'll have 192%. Primed mods are very much power creep as well, and I see no point to keep adding them to the game until they start giving us higher level enemies to fight and more challenging content. All MMOs have power creep, like WOW, difference is that they keep releasing more difficult (higher level) content each year to use that power creep on. It becomes a cycle. In Warframe we get the extra power, but keep fighting the same enemies. 

Those figures are completely dependent on the set bonus, and they come with the drawback of Primed Mod -esque mod drain.  Even if we could polarize Umbra onto anything at no penalty (fully 50% drain reduction) that's going to constrain builds.  I think those existing drawbacks are sufficient to allow Umbra polarization, and I already outlined how to allow that while keeping the main benefits on Umbra frames.  But no matter how you slice it, there is only one frame in the game right now that can build with Umbra mods in any meaningful way - Excalibur Umbra - and there is only one weapon in the game right now that you can build with Umbra weapon mods in any meaningful way - Skiajati.  And to top it off, those bonuses are best geared towards only one faction - Sentients, aka the least common faction you encounter by miles.  Unless of course you count Eidolons - but who the hell's gonna try and melee one of those?  And where does Excalibur Umbra fit into the universally accepted Eidolon meta (Trin/Chroma/Harrow/Volt)?

Like I said, it could be years before we see a decent number of Umbra frames in the game.  The general gist of modding has always been, you can stick whatever you want on whatever you want.  Polarize any which way you want.  If you can grind it, you can have it.  Whether or not the fruits of your labor ended up being useful was up for debate but the ability to actually do it wasn't.  If Umbral/Sacrificial mods are a departure from that, then it's a very worrisome departure.

You're definitely right about the game content not keeping up with the power creep though.  They moved dead backwards on that with the removal of raids, and with the exception of Elite Sanctuary onslaught the only real 'end game' content is to do absurdly long survival/defense/interception or stick around Index forever.

Edited June 16, 2018 by dopey_opi
i've been awake for way too long

[TheChaotic1]

Yalls know you don't have to make yourself use the Umbra mods

Like if you don't feel like dumping 9 forma into a build that is already top tier

Then dont

[dopey_opi]

2 minutes ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Yalls know you don't have to make yourself use the Umbra mods

Like if you don't feel like dumping 9 forma into a build that is already top tier

Then dont

What's the point of adding something to the game if it's not going to be used, or useable?

[TheChaotic1]

1 hour ago, dopey_opi said:

What's the point of adding something to the game if it's not going to be used, or useable?

It is going to be used and is usable, but we have agency, I'm certainly not going to reforma any frames for Umbra mods, because it's not worth the extra effort to me personally, but I know someone who is definitely going to because it's worth it to him.

Don't blame community obsession on DE

[dopey_opi]

1 hour ago, TheChaotic1 said:

It is going to be used and is usable, but we have agency, I'm certainly not going to reforma any frames for Umbra mods, because it's not worth the extra effort to me personally, but I know someone who is definitely going to because it's worth it to him.

Don't blame community obsession on DE

And that's precisely the problem here, we're currently unable to forma for Umbra mods.  Our agency is hindered by a glaring omission of options.  If you for whatever reason changed your mind and did want to forma for Umbra mods, you would not be able to.  I'm not blaming a community obsession on DE.  I'm actually not even at the blame stage yet - I see this as a launch day oversight, which is par for the course as Warframe goes.

[Anthraxicus]

From the moment I saw that Venari had its own polarities, I knew it was a bad sign of things to come.

When they first showed glimpses of moddable exalted weapons, some people were "happy" because they thought it meant more mastery rank. Not only I didn't see the connection, because it is an ability of the warframe, I also couldn't see any benefit. In my opinion back then, for this change to not come as a cheap move to force people into spending more forma, the exalted weapons should either get polarities when your forma the warframe or they should come with at leave 4 or 5 Madurai polarities. And it happened exactly as I had predicted. No extra Mastery Rank, one Madurai and two Naramon polarities, which practically no one gives a damn about. Titania users were screwed over twice as much.

Now, if certain warframe that happen to have exalted weapons instead of actual abilities need to forma these specific abilties, what is stopping DE to do the same to the other abilties? Why not go crazy already and let people mod other abilities as they please? 

I know I will stay away from all the Warframe with exalted weapons from now on.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Anthraxicus

[UrsWanderer]

I dont get why people complaining about this. Exalted weapons just got a real great buff and youre S#&$storming DE for farming 3-4 Forma more on a Warframe. Exalted weapons have now so much more versatility. You know elemental mods for an example? And for beginners it is great too. They dont bother too much about Formaing and the mods which make these weapons strong are easy to get. The Orokin vault mods arent needed anymore to make this weapons so powerful. My brother is kinda a beginner and he is more than happy to one hit some enemies with Valkyrs Talons now. And for endgame you need some Forma more ye. But you are alot stronger. The only people who should be sad of this is Mesa cause his Peacemaker was already based on his secondary weapon.