Update 23: Mods, Forma, and Destruction of Builds

[DjKaplis]

12 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

Long text..

Well you seem to think that DE are evil and hate you. That's just how your post looks.

 

I'd like to point out:

1) It's their game which they can make as they want. You are not their employer and even if you spend money on game it's free choice

2) They ARE trying to listen to feedback but it doesn't always mean to obey our every wish. Besides it is impossible to make everyone happy.

3) Every game gets a bit boring sooner or later after spending enough time on it. You are looking for new experiences and just know so much about current content that it doesn't excite you as much.

4) Personally I like the grind. It gives me still something to do after 1200h spent playing. The fact that I can't get everything very fast and then have nothing to work towards is probably the main reason that keeps many (not all) players interested for so long.

[True_Naeblis]

2 hours ago, Dragoneye95 said:

Maybe its a thing of taste but if you dont like grinding, why do you play Warframe then? It was always about grinding and people still complaining about it.

Some grind is fine, but DE has stated emphatically that they want to increase fun and reduce grind so that players play for enjoyment and not out of necessity, yet the grind just keeps going up and up and up. Having to forma Exalted weapons now, getting no increase in the drain pool via stances on Exalted weapons on top of that, making forma even more necessary, the nightmare that is Cetus that will only be multiplied with the release of Venus; I can't say that I'm a fan of the direction the game is going.

Players who join a year from now are going to be buried in grind and forced to live on the Wiki worse than ever to start playing the catch up game. I don't think that's a good formula for retention.

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2018-06-15 at 11:12 AM, allibound said:

I'm honestly shocked the forums aren't burning in the wake of a horde of angry, frothing, pictchfork-toting players screaming about the 20+ forma we've effectively lost.  I'm at a loss for words at how much of a setback this is for me in time and effort.  All this wait for a quest I did casually in 1 evening and now a month-long grind just to get back to where I was.  Crap like this is why I stop playing for months on end, and why almost none of my friends ever log in anymore.

For me Umbra will sit on the bench until I max out his mods, which won't be anytime soon because I have some Primed or gold mods still waiting to be maxed out, said mods which I can use with the other 10+ frames and weapons I have in my arsenal.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

2 hours ago, Zin-Azhsari said:

Can you even place all 3 mods on without having empty slots? If yes, can I know the build? Mine can only fit in 2 of the Umbra mods

my build already has 2 forma currently, going to need 9 more, it will take roughly 11 forma total since you'll have to remove inaros's beginning polarities.

 

steel charge, primed flow, negation swarm, augur secrets, rage, adrenaline. all of them will require their respective polarities added. any D polarities will need to be removed. this should leave you with 3 blank slots and 48 capacity left, which is exactly enough to fit on all 3 umbral mods.

 

once all of this is done, you'll have your exilus slot left open and absolutely no capacity left.

[dopey_opi]

2 hours ago, TheChaotic1 said:

There is a difference in saying you want to be able to forma for Umbra, which is reasonable, and saying DE made Umbra mods and separated exalted weapons to force people to buy forma, which is what most people sound like right now

People are acting like they have no choice but to use the Umbra mods, they do

I've got no problem with the grind, man.  I did my time, I'm MR25.  Done just about every build you can think of.  If you can think of a new build I haven't done, I'll try it.  Now DE throws new mods into the game, and I want to use them on something other than Excalibur Umbra without sacrificing well over half my mod capacity (and with it, my build flexibility).  It took two forma and considerable forethought to work Umbral Intensify onto my main Nova Prime (I have three).  There's no conceivable way to stick Umbral Vitality on her no matter how I forma, and still use all my mods slots (or, for that matter, keep the builds viable).

And for those complaining about having to re-level after forma'ing, the leveling aspect of sticking two more forma on her took a grand total of 45 minutes.  Learn to powerlevel.  It's easy.  Almost as if these types don't know Hydron is a thing.

[A.yatan]

I dont like your 1. Idea at all, i dont even like the fact that none umnra frames can equip these mods, i think they should be unique to umbra frames if there ever will be more i guess, to ur second point sure why not resetting the xp gain in the stats section is kinda S#&$ty so yes they should change that

[Midas]

Umbra polarities should just stay on Umbra seperating them from all framE. Otherwise delete umbra and make it an option to umbraify your frame lol. Too complicated at this point.

[Buttaface]

On ‎15‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 11:42 AM, --Q--Voltage said:

Some of these mods are extremely important to slot onto most Warframes.

Didn't read whole thread or OP much past the above howler. Really? In an easy, casual game like WF it's "extremely important" to slot these mods onto most Warframes?

No. It is not.

Also, nbd that you lose profile experience while gear is being forma'ed. Spend resources elsewhere than accommodating grognards who think they are playing a different game than the one they are actually playing.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

Didn't read whole thread or OP much past the above howler. Really? In an easy, casual game like WF it's "extremely important" to slot these mods onto most Warframes?

No. It is not.

Also, nbd that you lose profile experience while gear is being forma'ed. Spend resources elsewhere than accommodating grognards who think they are playing a different game than the one they are actually playing.

If you did not bother to read the entire message of this thread, please do so before leaving your thoughts. So you are saying to me that a large difference in EHP for Valkyr Prime, Inaros, Nidus, Wukong, etc is not important? Likewise, Umbral Intensify + Umbral Vitality completely replaces Transient Fortitude for Nova and gives you max slow percentage on Molecular Prime with no downside other than the nonsensical restriction of polarizing for a Tau polarity or the requirement to destroy your old build.

"No big deal" is your opinion. Here is what I said in my bug report thread to someone who considered this bug meaningless:

10 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

I am reporting this bug because numbers are meaningful to some players (like myself). This is a UI related bug that has been ongoing for years and I was compelled to report it in the appropriate section. Whether you feel it is meaningful or meaningless is irrelevant. Objectively, all bugs should be fixed.

Edited June 17, 2018 by --Q--Voltage
Thank you dopey_opi

[dopey_opi]

12 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Likewise, Umbra Intensify completely replaces Transient Fortitude for Nova and gives you max slow percentage on Molecular Prime with no downside other than the nonsensical restriction of polarizing for a Tau polarity or the requirement to destroy your old build.

Well, not -quite- max.  44%.  But that's close enough for my purposes.  Unfortunately, to get it above that, you'd absolutely have to put Umbral Vitality or Umbral Fiber on (probably Vitality, because armor on Nova = lel).  And without being able to polarize for Tau, there goes your build.  I do however have three viable builds with just Umbral Intensify now.  Essentially the same thing as they were when I was using Rank 4 Blind Rage and Rank 8 Transient Fortitude.  But, as I know you are aware, once you've got a good thing going, the desire to push it to the redline and beyond is strong.

[Buttaface]

5 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

If you did not bother to read the entire message of this thread, please do so before leaving your thoughts. So you are saying me that a large difference in EHP for Valkyr Prime, Inaros, Nidus, Wukong, etc is not important? Likewise, Umbra Intensify completely replaces Transient Fortitude for Nova and gives you max slow percentage on Molecular Prime with no downside other than the nonsensical restriction of polarizing for a Tau polarity or the requirement to destroy your old build.

"No big deal" is your opinion. Here is what I said in my bug report thread to someone who considered this bug meaningless:

I read enough. No, it is not "extremely important" to slot these new umbra mods on tank frames that hardly ever die anyway...or any other frames... doing any game content up to and including ESO and endurance runs. It's not even a little important. If you think it would be nice to do so, sure that's your prerogative.  What game do you think you are playing? The game you are actually playing is Warframe, an easy horde loot-shooter, not a competitive raiding game or hardcore pro league FPS.

There are lots of bugs in the profile. I don't care. 99% of the player base doesn't care. If you do that's fine, but in an exercise in hyperbole with "DESTRUCTION OF BUILDS" in the title, it's more than a little funny. No build, nor anything else, has been "DESTROYED!!" ROFL.

[Voltage]

19 minutes ago, dopey_opi said:

Well, not -quite- max.  44%.  But that's close enough for my purposes.  Unfortunately, to get it above that, you'd absolutely have to put Umbral Vitality or Umbral Fiber on (probably Vitality, because armor on Nova = lel).  And without being able to polarize for Tau, there goes your build.  I do however have three viable builds with just Umbral Intensify now.  Essentially the same thing as they were when I was using Rank 4 Blind Rage and Rank 8 Transient Fortitude.  But, as I know you are aware, once you've got a good thing going, the desire to push it to the redline and beyond is strong.

My apologies for not mentioning this. This is actually the main Nova build I am using right now:

Umbral Vitality should be where normal Vitality is to give me that max slow. I will edit my original comment to reflect this.

18 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

I read enough. No, it is not "extremely important" to slot these new umbra mods on tank frames that hardly ever die anyway...or any other frames... doing any game content up to and including ESO and endurance runs. It's not even a little important. If you think it would be nice to do so, sure that's your prerogative.  What game do you think you are playing? The game you are actually playing is Warframe, an easy horde loot-shooter, not a competitive raiding game or hardcore pro league FPS.

There are lots of bugs in the profile. I don't care. 99% of the player base doesn't care. If you do that's fine, but in an exercise in hyperbole with "DESTRUCTION OF BUILDS" in the title, it's more than a little funny. No build, nor anything else, has been "DESTROYED!!" ROFL.

Just because you believe the game to be strictly casual does not mean there are no players seeking "the desire to push it to the redline and beyond" as @dopey_opimentioned above. Plenty of players, including myself, enjoy min-maxing. These mods offer exactly what some Warframes builds could use to achieve maximum potential. You are entitled to play as you see fit, as do I. There is a large group of players who clearly disagree with the premise of these mods given the support for this thread and the meaningful discussion put forth by other players.

Whether you care or not about this profile bug is irrelevant. Bugs are bugs and should be fixed in some order. This bug has been around for years and I have the opinion it should be fixed. Laughing in my face is quite rude as well. Many players feel builds that are years old have been destroyed. Is the title hyperbole? Just a little. It gets my point across that the modding system for Warframes has just been turned upside down with Primed Steel Fiber, Primed Vitality, and Primed Intensify with a polarity you cannot accommodate into existing builds without losing years of accumulated XP on the profile.

Edited June 17, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[dopey_opi]

5 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

My apologies for not mentioning this. This is actually the main Nova build I am using right now:

Umbral Vitality should be where normal Vitality is to give me that max slow. I will edit my original comment to reflect this.

Just because you believe the game to be strictly casual does not mean there are no players seeking "the desire to push it to the redline and beyond" as @dopey_opimentioned above. Plenty of players, including myself, enjoy min-maxing. These mods offer exactly what some Warframes builds could use to achieve maximum potential. You are entitled to play as you see fit, as do I. There is a large group of players who clearly disagree with the premise of these mods given the support for this thread and the meaningful discussion put forth by other players.

Whether you care or not about this profile bug is irrelevant. Bugs are bugs and should be fixed in some order. This bug has been around for years and I have the opinion it should be fixed. Laughing in my face is quite rude as well. Many players feel builds that are years old have been destroyed. Is the title hyperbole? Just a little. It gets my point across that the modding system for Warframes has just been turned upside down with Primed Steel Fiber, Primed Vitality, and Primed Intensify with a polarity you cannot accommodate into existing builds without losing years of accumulated XP on the profile.

My Nova build depends on what I'm doing, but this particular Nova Prime has the three builds I use most frequently (I have a second Nova Prime that handles Speedva/Neutral Nova roles, and a third Nova Prime that is mostly defunct since she had all my raid builds).  Images are spoilered, due to 2560x1440 resolution.

Build 1: Tanky Nova.  This one handles any situation where survivability is of the essence.  Huge CC range, high damage reduction via Null Star, and the ability to explode and recast Null Star to keep the damage reduction up.

Spoiler

Build 2: Everyday Nova.  A general-purpose build, usable in almost any situation.  Works quite well on PoE, and trivializes all spy missions (including Lua)

Spoiler

Build 3: Speedy Lil' Nova.  This is kind of a novelty build, but it's a ton of fun.  I usually combine it with a melee weapon slotted for Dispatch Overdrive for maximum sprint speed.  Routinely outruns Volts.  Usually run this on repetitive fissures for ducat farming, and on vault runs.

Spoiler

Aside from switching the rank 4 Blind Rage and the rank 8 Transient Fortitude off these in favor of Umbral Intensify, the builds are exactly the same as they were before - but it took 2 forma to get them there.  Had to take the V polarity off the slot Umbral Intensify occupies, and had to change the polarity in the 8th slot to augment polarity in order to accomodate the augments.  I spent a considerable amount of time weighing my options on how to slot in Umbral Vitality, but in all cases it meant the removal of mods that I find to be indispensable.  Hence my irritation at not being able to polarize Tau to slot it in.  Again, I see this as a launch-day oversight from DE, so I'm not too up in arms.  But, since it's a direct impediment to something I and others want to do (and should be able to do), I'm going to remain vocal about it until it's fixed.  It worked with Limbo, and it'll work here.  DE after all, does take our feedback into consideration.  They just don't always implement it in the timeframe we want, but I remain optimistic.  Time and pressure, fellow raider.  Time and pressure.

[Buttaface]

22 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Just because you believe the game to be strictly casual does not mean there are no players seeking "the desire to push it to the redline and beyond" as @dopey_opimentioned above. Plenty of players, including myself, enjoy min-maxing. These mods offer exactly what some Warframes builds could use to achieve maximum potential. You are entitled to play as you see fit, as do I. There is a large group of players who clearly disagree with the premise of these mods given the support for this thread and the meaningful discussion put forth by other players.

No, I don't "believe" the game to be strictly casual. The game -is- casual. You could probably mount a rocket on a bicycle for a 1/4 mile commute to work, that's fine, but it is not "extremely important" that you be able to do so, and claiming it is, like claiming these mods are extremely important to go on other frames, is nonsense. Anyone who was doing extra rounds of ESO or 60 waves of defense before this patch will still be doing them due to the cheezy nature of frame powers, not this or that mod that gives a marginal boost, in this easy, breezy, cheezy game, and these mods don't alter that one iota.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Buttaface

[dopey_opi]

Just now, Buttaface said:

No, I don't "believe" the game to be strictly casual. The game -is- casual. You could probably mount a rocket engine on a bicycle for a 1/4 mile commute to work, that's fine, but it is not "extremely important" that you be able to do so, and claiming it is, like claiming these mods are extremely important to go on other frames, is nonsense. Anyone who was doing extra rounds of ESO or 60 waves of defense before this patch will still be doing them due to the cheezy nature of frame powers, not this or that mod that gives a marginal boost, in this easy, breezy, cheezy game, and these mods don't alter that one iota.

They do alter it, though.  If you're not interested in them, that's fine.  Nobody's going to force you to use them or build for them.  But please don't argue against the possibility of building for and using them, for us.  We are interested in doing so in this 'cheezy game' that we love so much, invested god knows how many thousands of hours into, and want to continue doing so.  We've been finding ways to push the limits for years, and DE has obliged by giving us new toys.  If this really is no different as you claim it is (a claim I think you're correct in, by the way), then removing the Tau polarity barrier is a natural and logical progression of that.

[rune_me]

9 minutes ago, dopey_opi said:

They do alter it, though.  If you're not interested in them, that's fine.  Nobody's going to force you to use them or build for them.  But please don't argue against the possibility of building for and using them, for us.  We are interested in doing so in this 'cheezy game' that we love so much, invested god knows how many thousands of hours into, and want to continue doing so.  We've been finding ways to push the limits for years, and DE has obliged by giving us new toys.  If this really is no different as you claim it is (a claim I think you're correct in, by the way), then removing the Tau polarity barrier is a natural and logical progression of that.

I will absolutely argue against the possibility. Not because of "cheese" but because they are what makes Umbra special. Without them, there was almost no reason to Umbra. He'd be just another prime frame. The fact that only Umbra (and possible future umbras) has these polarities are what sets them apart. To me, arguing that other frames should also have them, is like arguing that all frames ought to be able to use Nova's M-prime because it could be just as useful to them as it is to Nova.

[dopey_opi]

6 minutes ago, rune_me said:

I will absolutely argue against the possibility. Not because of "cheese" but because they are what makes Umbra special. Without them, there was almost no reason to Umbra. He'd be just another prime frame. The fact that only Umbra (and possible future umbras) has these polarities are what sets them apart. To me, arguing that other frames should also have them, is like arguing that all frames ought to be able to use Nova's M-prime because it could be just as useful to them as it is to Nova.

Either they're going to have to start releasing Umbra frames in a rolling fashion much like Prime frames, which would take many years, or 'the sacrifice' is going to mean 'Umbra'-izing our existing frames.  The latter seems like the most likely option.  It is simply a matter of where to commit the development/design resources, and exactly how long Warframe as a game is going to last.  I doubt we'll be having this argument in 2025.

And don't forget that Excalibur Umbra was simply another prime frame.  He was around for years in China's Warframe, as their equivalent of Excalibur Prime.  So let's not put that pedestal too high here.

[Kidkilla]

That's the real argument in a nutshell - how people play WF. I suspect the mods and Exalted weapon update were done deliberately to lessen the impact of min max players i.e. if you want to play like that, fine but it'll cost you. Min max players generally own maps - you're the player with that awesome Equinox build that wipes it out in 10 sec vs the more casual player that takes his/her time and is generally less efficient in game play. Now both game styles are fine, but there's always been that disconnect between the 2 in missions and the community overall, and this is DE's attempt to slow down min max players while dragging casual players up by sign posting things. Plus, in the case of exalted weapons, they also happen to belong to frames that have less players/ or frames that have a few issues e.g. Wukong and Titania. I think when we get used to it, we'll find loop holes and ways round some of the limitations of the system. 

p.s. anyone tried Umbra's radial howl on the teralyst hunt yet?

[Terick11]

I agree with the 10 formas now needed to make Exalted Frames good is absurd. 

[Klokwerkaos]

So while I agree umbral polarity would be nice on non umbra frames, i think I understand why this wasn't done.

Much like making Excal a decent starter frame, excal umbra is rewarded around the time where someone might be MR 9ish, and the purpose of this is to give them a single OP build that is near ready made, so that they can keep up with MR 25s in ESO and similar.  The point isn't to allows people that are already MR 25 with min/max builds/rivens/arcanes to outpace those players even further, it's to help those players keep up.

The problem with this theory is that it's a band aid to the bigger problem: lack of MR gated content to separate the men from the boys.  DE wants us all to play in the same sandbox, but increasingly, over time, power creep sets in as a game ages, which is normally fine because you aren't forcing players to play next to each other that are starters and min/maxed god tier, but DE wants everyone to play together, which I think made sense when the game was young, but makes less sense as it ages.

I'm not saying a lot of content should be gated, but I would think a couple of things probably should be, and future content really needs this.  Why do I say this?  Because the forums tend to devolve into 2 distinct arguments, those that hate the min/max MR25 riven/build/arcane set ups in their games, and those that enjoy them, and the best way to help alleviate that stress is two things, and the first is the easy option of MR gating additional content.

The second answer is to allow players to set their mission cue up types to: ANY, Within +/-4 MR, No Min/max, Min/Max.  This would just be an options setting and help pair people up for missions a little better.  I'd argue they should also add, for other reasons: Host when more than 800 ping

This would take care of a lot of the problems people have with random match set ups I think.

But my point is I think the umbra thing is a band aid situation.

[megamino]

For me personally, LET UMBRA BE UMBRA, the mods if you want to use them fine but don't tell DE to make umbra polarity on every warframe when you forma them, that's not umbra.

As i always said, if you are min/max person.. Go ahead but we know that you can survive any mission without those umbra mods right? The thing is i am not againts anybody who wants to put umbra mod, hell yeah i wanna put umbra vitality on my inaros to get tougher but i will not ask DE to add umbra polarity.

 

[DjKaplis]

Yea, Umbra mods being somewhat limited to Umbra (if only by capacity issues) at least for now makes sense. And I believe we still can fit some umbra mods on some of our setups that had extra mod space left after formaing for another build that was more forma demanding.

 

[Kinjeto]

6 hours ago, Buttaface said:

No, I don't "believe" the game to be strictly casual. The game -is- casual. You could probably mount a rocket on a bicycle for a 1/4 mile commute to work, that's fine, but it is not "extremely important" that you be able to do so, and claiming it is, like claiming these mods are extremely important to go on other frames, is nonsense. Anyone who was doing extra rounds of ESO or 60 waves of defense before this patch will still be doing them due to the cheezy nature of frame powers, not this or that mod that gives a marginal boost, in this easy, breezy, cheezy game, and these mods don't alter that one iota.

There's plenty of this dross in this community. That if they find stuff to difficult they make excuses, they cry wolf and say "toxic", "elitist" and "DE Please Nerf." and all that. But what else is new?

Edited June 17, 2018 by Kinjeto

[Buttaface]

6 hours ago, dopey_opi said:

They do alter it, though.  If you're not interested in them, that's fine.  Nobody's going to force you to use them or build for them.  But please don't argue against the possibility of building for and using them, for us. 

No problem whatsoever with your using the mods on non Umbra frames, hell I may do it too. But the price is steep... and should be. Hope they sell a whole bunch of forma bundles from this update and make lots and lots of $$ by ignoring this thread's request entirely... especially couched as "destroying builds" as it was. What utter baloney.

[dopey_opi]

27 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

No problem whatsoever with your using the mods on non Umbra frames, hell I may do it too. But the price is steep... and should be. Hope they sell a whole bunch of forma bundles from this update and make lots and lots of $$ by ignoring this thread's request entirely... especially couched as "destroying builds" as it was. What utter baloney.

I would say destroy is a strong word but, you can't argue that it doesn't disrupt the meta potential.  I say, lock the Tau polarity behind a special kind of forma that only drops from Sorties or the 4th rotation of ESO.  Give us the ability to use it, but make us earn it.  As for Umbra frames, let them forma for Tau polarity wiithout the special kind of forma.  With those parameters that would be a substantial bonus for Umbra frames, and actually encourages DE to make new Umbras and encourages players to use Umbra frames.  Excalibur Umbra might not have much competition, seeing as Excalibur's Prime variant is locked to founders, but Nova Umbra and Rhino Umbra will be up against some serious competition when (if) they come out.  And for DE's earnings, put those special forma in the market at 500p apiece.  That's how you rake in a killing while still letting us do our thing.

Edited June 17, 2018 by dopey_opi