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Update 23: Mods, Forma, and Destruction of Builds


Voltage
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1 hour ago, Dragoneye95 said:

Right now you are going to say you main all of the seven warframes which use Exalted weapons. Thats just completely far from reality. Most Exalted Weapons do pretty well without Formaing it. You dont need to min max every single warframe in this game. Its insane. In regular MMOs you can access new classes even easier so I think your argument is invalid. Warframe is kinda a MMO cause it has the core aspects of a MMO. Even if it is a shooter combined with a MMO. It is meant to play more characters in Warframe indeed. But it is not meant to play as much as you want. Even if you only play Frames with Exalted Weapons, you play seven different characters. All you want to min max. And how rare is it that someone plays no other Warframe than one with an Exalted Weapon. Also, Forma is still freakin easy to get. I didnt play that much last months but there are enough players out there saying they have about 100 Forma blueprints. Even me who played not that much in last time has 4 completed Forma and about 10 BPs. And I was focusing on picking Prime parts in Fissures.

That is far from reality now, but it was reality before. If I wanted to drop any of my warframes to main Mesa, I would simply equip her to one of my 5 formas secondaries and be done with it. If I wanted to drop her for Titania, I could even choose between rifle and shotgun mods, depending on whether I wanted more critical damage or more fire rate. I can't do that anymore. And if I wanted to create an additional Excalibur, I would simply equip him with one of my Nikanas, that benefit from stances unlike the Exalted Blade, and soon my new extra Excal would reach peak performance on his ability. Not anymore. 

Now, your 10 BPs are worthless now, because it will take you more than 10 days to make them useful. The 4 formas you currently have can help you maximize maybe the Exalted Blade of your Umbra and that is about it. You don't even have the normal Excalibur. You don't have Titania, you don't have Mesa, you don't have Khora and you don't have Wukong. So, you are gonna need a bit more than 4 Forma and 10 BPs for those ones, not counting the Forma required to mod the actual Warframe. On top of that, you are MR13. If you wanna progress any further than that, you need to start building weapons, clan weapons to be more specific, and most of them require Forma to build. You can use 3 of your 4 Formas and build one Twin Kohmak. How about that? And I am only talking about building the weapons. If you want to actually use them, you are gonna need anything from 3-6 Formas for each one of them. And let's not forget about Exilus Adapters.

How about you get everything before preaching others?

Edited by Anthraxicus
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2 hours ago, Dragoneye95 said:

Right now you are going to say you main all of the seven warframes which use Exalted weapons. Thats just completely far from reality. Most Exalted Weapons do pretty well without Formaing it. You dont need to min max every single warframe in this game. Its insane. In regular MMOs you can access new classes even easier so I think your argument is invalid. Warframe is kinda a MMO cause it has the core aspects of a MMO. Even if it is a shooter combined with a MMO. It is meant to play more characters in Warframe indeed. But it is not meant to play as much as you want. Even if you only play Frames with Exalted Weapons, you play seven different characters. All you want to min max. And how rare is it that someone plays no other Warframe than one with an Exalted Weapon. Also, Forma is still freakin easy to get. I didnt play that much last months but there are enough players out there saying they have about 100 Forma blueprints. Even me who played not that much in last time has 4 completed Forma and about 10 BPs. And I was focusing on picking Prime parts in Fissures.

 

Well I use the same mods I used in Melee weapons now on Valkyrs Hysteria and I deal alot more damage.

 

 

It was never meant to min max everything in the game. It is just a silly idea about what the game is supposed to be. Min max your 3-5 favorite frames (one for another situation) and be happy. That doesnt hinder you playing other Warframes which arent Formad at all but which will also do even in Endgame content most of the time very well.

I'm sorry but I'm going to strongly disagree with everything you just said. Let me jot down some of my main points here:

1. Warframe is not an MMO: Waframe at best is an MMO light. The main difference being that in standard MMO the leveling process is far longer and the progression past max level is based on individual gear that can't be ported to another character. Fully discovering and playing a class takes months, as you elegantly stated. In Warframe the road to lvl 30 is extremely short and the progression is measured in mods, most of which are universal. This makes the process of 'maxing' a character a lot easier and less time consuming - and I love that. That is precisely why I'm very much opposed to anything that would change this state of affairs.

Aside from the above point, a slight technicality - Warframe does not serve 'adventuring' locations that can serve more than a few players at a time, much less dozens upon dozens of players which is one of the staples of an MMO.

 

2. 'Maining' a character is only 1 playstyle, one that I do not subscribe to. Since I am able to get many frames, I will - as many as I can obtain without paying exorbitant prices in plat on Warframe Market. And since I already have all those lovely frames (all best available variants, except for Excalibur Prime and Nyx Prime) I am going to attempt to make all of them perform at their peak, unless I especially dislike playing that frame. That's right, I play every frame except for Hydroid, Limbo, Khora, Nezha and Vauban. And since that is the case I want to be able to max them at some point.

And, yes, I enjoy Exalted frames in particular, so naturally they are the ones I invested / will invest most forma on.

 

3. 'It was never meant to min max everything in the game' - so why do a lot of players do that? Why do you think this thread was started in the 1st place? Of course this was not the only reason as there were 2 more, but still. This is not how YOU play they game - doesn't mean that this is not how the game was meant to be played.

In case you've forgotten the slogan of Warframe is "Ninjas play free", and while that is a clever way of pointing towards the F2P nature, it's also meant to say that you can play it however you like.

 

Now to the point: Forma itself is not a problem here. Time itself is not a problem here. Forma + time + the fact that none of the non-Exalted frames require increased costs is the point here. For a game that handles balancing and QoL changes very well this feels really like a cash grab (as many players will invest plat in forma now) and an overall inconvenience. I have a serious problem with polarizing an individual skill of a Warframe. This was never done before, outside of Khora's Venari - which now I'm pretty sure was a precursor to these changes - so why the sudden shift? This feels inconsistent and cheap.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love the game and I will continue to support it for probably a long time. It doesn't mean I will take all the changes - especially the ones that I don't like - with a standing ovation.

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Il y a 4 heures, Gregnoth a dit :

I'm sorry but I'm going to strongly disagree with everything you just said. Let me jot down some of my main points here:

1. Warframe is not an MMO: Waframe at best is an MMO light. The main difference being that in standard MMO the leveling process is far longer and the progression past max level is based on individual gear that can't be ported to another character. Fully discovering and playing a class takes months, as you elegantly stated. In Warframe the road to lvl 30 is extremely short and the progression is measured in mods, most of which are universal. This makes the process of 'maxing' a character a lot easier and less time consuming - and I love that. That is precisely why I'm very much opposed to anything that would change this state of affairs.

Aside from the above point, a slight technicality - Warframe does not serve 'adventuring' locations that can serve more than a few players at a time, much less dozens upon dozens of players which is one of the staples of an MMO.

 

2. 'Maining' a character is only 1 playstyle, one that I do not subscribe to. Since I am able to get many frames, I will - as many as I can obtain without paying exorbitant prices in plat on Warframe Market. And since I already have all those lovely frames (all best available variants, except for Excalibur Prime and Nyx Prime) I am going to attempt to make all of them perform at their peak, unless I especially dislike playing that frame. That's right, I play every frame except for Hydroid, Limbo, Khora, Nezha and Vauban. And since that is the case I want to be able to max them at some point.

And, yes, I enjoy Exalted frames in particular, so naturally they are the ones I invested / will invest most forma on.

 

3. 'It was never meant to min max everything in the game' - so why do a lot of players do that? Why do you think this thread was started in the 1st place? Of course this was not the only reason as there were 2 more, but still. This is not how YOU play they game - doesn't mean that this is not how the game was meant to be played.

In case you've forgotten the slogan of Warframe is "Ninjas play free", and while that is a clever way of pointing towards the F2P nature, it's also meant to say that you can play it however you like.

 

Now to the point: Forma itself is not a problem here. Time itself is not a problem here. Forma + time + the fact that none of the non-Exalted frames require increased costs is the point here. For a game that handles balancing and QoL changes very well this feels really like a cash grab (as many players will invest plat in forma now) and an overall inconvenience. I have a serious problem with polarizing an individual skill of a Warframe. This was never done before, outside of Khora's Venari - which now I'm pretty sure was a precursor to these changes - so why the sudden shift? This feels inconsistent and cheap.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love the game and I will continue to support it for probably a long time. It doesn't mean I will take all the changes - especially the ones that I don't like - with a standing ovation.

Well. I guess you opened my eyes.I mean in the end it is about taste and I like it how it is now. I like the increased strength and flexibility of the Exalted Weapons much. Even if it comes with the downside of increased Forma costs. And it makes me angry when people complain about Warframe in a bad way. What people expect from this game is just too much in my eyes. There are games where you have way harder times min maxing. It offers much already although it is still Beta and also F2P. You complained like the others before in a positive way. But please also try to see the upsides of the recent changes.

 

And in the end they cant revert this change anyway cause alot of people have already Formaed Exalted Weapons numerous times. They would just start another S#&$storm. Without the Forma the skills with the Exalted Weapons are still not that bad (maybe 1,5 mods missing) and can compete easily with the ultimate skill of many other Warframes. As a little compensation I can think about a special Exalted Weapon stance (not only the melee ones) which gives 10 capacity. I think that would be a fair argument for everyone (maybe the Augment mods of these weapons can be the stance?). I then see some Exalted weapons beat other ones but it gives the opportunity to balance it out. Just give some Exalted weapons mod more extra capacity then others. And maybe there also will be more than just one "stance" per Exalted weapon. That would strengthen my aspect of flexibility and doesnt set the player to only run with Cromatic Blade for an example (I also think all skills in the game should get a second and third set of Augments ome day, maybe one day a slot more for Warframes which are limited to Augments but other slots can accept them aswell like Eximus slot).

Edited by Dragoneye95
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Il y a 5 heures, Anthraxicus a dit :

That is far from reality now, but it was reality before. If I wanted to drop any of my warframes to main Mesa, I would simply equip her to one of my 5 formas secondaries and be done with it. If I wanted to drop her for Titania, I could even choose between rifle and shotgun mods, depending on whether I wanted more critical damage or more fire rate. I can't do that anymore. And if I wanted to create an additional Excalibur, I would simply equip him with one of my Nikanas, that benefit from stances unlike the Exalted Blade, and soon my new extra Excal would reach peak performance on his ability. Not anymore. 

Now, your 10 BPs are worthless now, because it will take you more than 10 days to make them useful. The 4 formas you currently have can help you maximize maybe the Exalted Blade of your Umbra and that is about it. You don't even have the normal Excalibur. You don't have Titania, you don't have Mesa, you don't have Khora and you don't have Wukong. So, you are gonna need a bit more than 4 Forma and 10 BPs for those ones, not counting the Forma required to mod the actual Warframe. On top of that, you are MR13. If you wanna progress any further than that, you need to start building weapons, clan weapons to be more specific, and most of them require Forma to build. You can use 3 of your 4 Formas and build one Twin Kohmak. How about that? And I am only talking about building the weapons. If you want to actually use them, you are gonna need anything from 3-6 Formas for each one of them. And let's not forget about Exilus Adapters.

How about you get everything before preaching others?

I have actually six warframes ready to get in my foundry, normal Excalibur is one of them. Just as a sidenote. I am there since the beginning and followed the game much. Which didnt hold me at Warframe was the grind which already became better since the beginning (if you were there when Dojos came out, then you know how hard it was to get a fully build dojo back then, every room also needed 1 Forma back then like today, not to mention the weapons) and I also was one of the guys who farmed Frost Prime back then in the tower. Hard times. I came back about three weeks ago and increased my Warframe collection from 3 to 15 now (and 6 in the foundry).

Well I dont need to max every single Warframe. I am not even sure if I like to use Excalibur alot. And if I would have made two more Index runs I would have continued crafting the last four days I spent with my friends (big hooray to one of the best companion apps out there, only wishing being able to sell things with it).  So I would have 8 now. Congratulations, the first Warframe is about only two Forma away from being maxed out (when it is a Warframe with an exalted weapon). Active players are supposed to have the most (or all) Prime weapons so they can use their Prime parts to sell for platinum and buy Forma packages with it. Three for 35 platinum is actually pretty cheap I think. So active players who make no bigger breaks like I did should get everything in the game, with min maxing most Warframes and alot of weapons without any problems. I dont see a problem there. I also can try to do some maths for you. But as an addition please also read the post I made right before this one to the other guy.

Edited by Dragoneye95
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What makes Excal Umbra special is that he is an Excal Prime equivalent for people who do not have or ever will have Excal Prime. That already make him unique. On top of that he is a free Spectre. Now whether you agree that him being a Spectre is a boon or not is your opinion. I just like it for the lulz.

Plus, having 3 prime equivalent mods for just one frame is stupid. They're literally unusable for every other frame in the game since it's seemingly impossible to create a proper build. 

You don't make multiple prime equivalent mods that take tons of investment usable for only ONE frame. Now if they start releasing more umbra frames, I'll be more inclined to agree with you. But I'll still be annoyed because with more umbra frames being realeased will probably mean more umbra mods and then it will get to a point that only umbra frames will always over power all other frames since they are the only frames capable of making proper builds with the most powerful mods available.

No one really cares about excal umbra being special, he's just a stroyline frame. Hence why there's been such a big backlash. 

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1 hour ago, Dragoneye95 said:

Well. I guess you opened my eyes.I mean in the end it is about taste and I like it how it is now. I like the increased strength and flexibility of the Exalted Weapons much. Even if it comes with the downside of increased Forma costs. And it makes me angry when people complain about Warframe in a bad way. What people expect from this game is just too much in my eyes. There are games where you have way harder times min maxing. It offers much already although it is still Beta and also F2P. You complained like the others before in a positive way. But please also try to see the upsides of the recent changes.

I do like this utility too, like I said before my gripe is with the implementation. You don't have to worry about me complaining about Warframe with solely negatives. As mentioned - I love the game. The overall ambience and style are atypical and intoxicating, the gunplay and swordplay is heavy and packs the punch and this will not change soon.

If it ever does - then and only then will I turn negative.

1 hour ago, Dragoneye95 said:

As a little compensation I can think about a special Exalted Weapon stance (not only the melee ones) which gives 10 capacity.

You know what? That sounds like a reasonable half-way measure. The fact that the melee Exalted weapons don't have capacity-giving stances was one of the things that rubbed me the wrong way in the first place - if DE fixed that and then added +10 cap on firearms as well... Let's just say that it would make this a little easier to swallow. My ideal solution would be an infinite capacity on Exalted weapons and forma refund (should be doable), but +10 capacity would be an acceptable consolation prize.

Edited by Gregnoth
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I'm pretty against being able to Forma Umbra polarities into weapons and Warframes. Mainly because, if you think about, WHY can't you polarize mod slots with the Umbra polarity? Could you have thought it was maybe... deliberate? For example, the inability to use the acolyte mods on Exalted weapons, etc.

Furthermore, why should you be able to forma Umbra polarities on a NON-umbra related Warframe or weapon? If DE further explores Umbra and do pursue to create an Umbra line, what would differentiate the Umbra's from their Prime variants? Because as it stands, Excalibur Umbra stat-wise is an exact copy of Excalibur prime, with the exceptions of Visual appearances. The main difference is the fact that A) You have a sentience passive and B) You have access to UMBRA mods, on an UMBRA Warframe *gasp*.

I disagree with the community that tries to force things like this into the meta. As it stands, from like Dev Stream 73, DE has stated that they want Umbra Warframes to be different from Primes, and I don't think having a colour change and slightly different ornate metallic pieces justifies being different.

If DE wants to make more Umbra Warframes (Big "IF", and even then, it most likely won't be all the frames), then allowing any Warframe to use Umbra mods just nullifies their efforts to Different from Primes.

Edited by -ODIN-Charizard_Prime
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On 2018-06-16 at 4:37 PM, DjKaplis said:

Well you seem to think that DE are evil and hate you. That's just how your post looks.

 

I'd like to point out:

1) It's their game which they can make as they want. You are not their employer and even if you spend money on game it's free choice

2) They ARE trying to listen to feedback but it doesn't always mean to obey our every wish. Besides it is impossible to make everyone happy.

3) Every game gets a bit boring sooner or later after spending enough time on it. You are looking for new experiences and just know so much about current content that it doesn't excite you as much.

4) Personally I like the grind. It gives me still something to do after 1200h spent playing. The fact that I can't get everything very fast and then have nothing to work towards is probably the main reason that keeps many (not all) players interested for so long.

 

Now, this is why we can't have nice things.  You start off making a poor assumption, not understanding the points made because you don't like them, then following with personal grievances and defenses that are preposterous.

 

If I didn't like the game I wouldn't be here commenting.  It's the same reason I don't continue to lambast EA, despite their predatory practices eating away at the industry as a cancer.

Grind is a stupid thing to like.  What you actually like is the sense of accomplishment delivered after a lot of input energy.  While I understand this, the issue is that a minimum wage job can literally earn you content faster than grinding.  DE themselves have stated they want to minimize grind, so I'm taking them at face value and assuming they believe there is a grind problem (that they either can't or won't address).

Just because I don't like some business practices doesn't mean I hate a developer.  I get why DE does what they do, but fashion frame makes enough money (based upon DE's own claimed player base) to support things.  Why do you have to add additional grind to the game after half a decade without it?  There's no good answer, because DE already proved they could be reasonable with the weapons rebalance weekend gift.

Finally, just stop a minute and ask yourself why you are here.  It took a community revolt to stop damage 2.5.  Augment mods often don't reflect what the community wants, as DE has made certain decisions against their wishes (presumably in the name of balance, giving them the benefit of doubt).  What about weapons balancing?  It took almost 3 years to make a lot of weapons worth it, understanding there was a time when the only weapon to use was the Boltor Prime.  I'm not asking for my individual tastes to be catered to (if I was, there'd be no Scrambus or nullifiers), just that we get something less like an echo chamber.  You're immediate and blind defense of DE with double think rhetoric is an example of this.

 

Putting this concisely, DE only gets better if we force them to.  They only know what works and doesn't if we communicate.  Communication is only viable if it isn't screaming at a brick wall, which these forums feel like far too often.  I want to see things get better.  I want to be a metal space ninja bad a$$.  I think DE is capable, but only with enough poking and prodding.  If they think they're better than that, then it's time to call this game DOA.  I'd like to believe they are better than that, and take criticism in stride.  Please, let them be better than petty children.  Sometimes a good kick in the pants hurts, but its what we need.  If you never receive it, you'll die a death of painful attrition.

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On 2018-06-16 at 5:12 AM, Grimmzi said:

would defeat the purpose of excal umbra would it? as a normal excal can just get the "umbra forma"

that's the point. excalibur umbra is a bandaid for excalibur prime which we can never get. plus many people me included don't like the umbra variant over his regular varient due to his dumbass AI, so i wish i could have an umbral forma to put in his regular variant or at least make umbral forma only applicable to umbra frame, since i don't want the entire set to function. heck i removed all umbra polarity from my skiajahti and exalted umbra blade due to my better builds. I am still planning on removing a umbra polarity for umbral armor or not, and that's what scares me, the fear that i won't get back my umbra polarity on my umbra frame.

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