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Fighting Umbra is terrible!!!


Ragna677
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On 2018-06-18 at 3:22 AM, Chewarette said:

Yeah just advice to someone who is MR6-8 to just wait literal weeks before actually being able to continue the questline, what a great idea.

while I'd say that advising someone to farm multiple millions of focus and a week or more of rep farming two different factions, is certainly going too far....

IMO someone 6-8 doing Sacrifice is just bizzare.   if you are rushing through quests that hard, it only makes sense that it would get pretty intensely difficult at the later part of that. 

I beat Sacrifice with a mote amp.  I found it to be an effective education about strategically using void dash.   it was challenging, but I think in retrospect,  comparing my Shwaak prism amp to the Mote Amp,  it seems like it might be TOO easy with an advanced amp and knowing how to approach it now.  

this seems pretty normal though.  "expansion" content using a mechanic thats been fully maxed out and refined by the high end players when the content is released is usually easy for them,  and a little on the hard side for people flowing directly into it without capping out the content immediately before it. 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

I admit this is a good point.

I think that much like weapons since the retune/rebalance. Warframe quests need to be MR Locked & they need to have an equipment requirement.

The Sacrifice should be MR 16, require a Crafted Guilded Amp (Meaning The Mote Amp is out), & require The Operator to have HP past the base HP (IE: Vazarin's Enduring Tides (Rank II or III), or Magus Vigor Rank 3) bare minimum. That way players can:
1. See & FEEL the difference in the power of their Operator by improving their AMP & Guilding it, focusing (heh...) on Focus Nodes, and/or investing in Operator Arcanes.
2. Gain an understanding of the mechanics in game balanced around the Operator.
3. Not struggle on content that requires The Operator.

Someone is probably furiously smashing their fingers on their keyboard about how they don't want to be "forced" to play and/or invest time & effort into their Operator.
Well listen, to a certain Extent Operators are one of the true Endgame Mechanics of Warframe. Their growth is perhaps the one portion of Warframe that takes consistent time, effort, & cannot be sped up by trading (outside of Arcanes).
Their growth also is gradual but dramatically noticeable, and they are at the Core if not "THE" core of the Warframe storyline. So they are here to stay, content will use them more & more.
Chains of Harrow & Sacrifice are mere precursors to what's to come for our Operators the synergy between Operator & Warframe is key moving forward.

personally I am not an Operator-hater,  but don't you think that is a *bit* of overkill?   and wouldn't the fight be utterly trivial with that level of advancement and experience?  (I have been away for most of the time since POE and now, so basically I came to Sacrifice pretty soon after starting on POE content, and being a little out of practice) 

I am all for things to utilize and encourage utilization of the Operator/Frame synergy.   I find playing with that in mind is decidedly enriched from when I played before POE.

but I think what you describe sets the bar arbitrarily high for no reason.  MR10 or 12 maybe, I think could be reasonable.   Operator/Amp arcanes, unlocked waybounds, thats just silly.  

struggle means education.  if you aren't gonna struggle there, you're gonna struggle and feel arbitrarily held back somewhere else. 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Ginkawa said:

while I'd say that advising someone to farm multiple millions of focus and a week or more of rep farming two different factions, is certainly going too far....

IMO someone 6-8 doing Sacrifice is just bizzare.   if you are rushing through quests that hard, it only makes sense that it would get pretty intensely difficult at the later part of that. 

Yes but as I said, I'm pretty sure that if you start the game from scratch tomorrow, you'll likely hit The Second Dream in about a week (or 2), which is the point you'll discover the Operator. Then The War Within, a few hours/days later, which is where you'll be able to actually use your Operator. And I'm pretty sure The Sacrifice will naturally arrive ~2-3 days (1 week tops) after that. No way you will have anything else than the Mote Amp, and one week's worth of Focus farming is like one million point. You won't max any relevant passive with that.

That's why I truly believe there is a pacing issue. Of course, for people who have done The War Within 15 months ago and who are doing 10 Tridolons a day, Sacrifice was easy. But for people starting the game now - and there will be a lot of newcomers with Railjack and Fortuna -, the curve might be way too steep.

Edited by Chewarette
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Just now, Chewarette said:

Yes but as I said, I'm pretty sure that if you start the game from scratch tomorrow, you'll likely hit The Second Dream in about a week (or 2), which is the point you'll discover the Operator. Then The War Within, a few hours/days later, which is where you'll be able to actually use your Operator. And I'm pretty sure The Sacrifice will naturally arrive ~2-3 days (1 week tops) after that. No way you will have anything else than the Mote Amp, and one week's worth of Focus farming is like one million point. You won't max any relevant passive with that.

That's out I truly believe there is a pacing issue. Of course, for people who have done The War Within 15 months ago and who are doing 10 Tridolons a day, Sacrifice was easy. But for people starting the game now - and there will be a lot of newcomers with Railjack and Fortuna -, the step might be way too steep.


I think hitting Second dream in 2 weeks after starting is insane and rushing through the game WAY too fast. (or playing way too much to be healthy)  I think trying to structure out that pacing so they aren't hitting Sacrifice with only a month of play under their belt is more the way to go.  

I played a little bit a very very very very long time ago.  quit,  came back and played a fairly good chunk during the time leading up to POE,  quit, came back in the last couple weeks.    

I think if you are rushing the content that hard, its not unreasonable that its pretty difficult.   

its DEFINITELY doable with the mote amp.  a little frustrating until you get the hang of void-dash-kiting him,  but I think like some of the MR tests, its an educational, useful challenge to overcome.   in a LOT of games if you go through expansion content one after the other without maxing out each one's stuff, you will be challenged at points because its throttled for people who have been playing the previous max content for at least a little while.  you are functionally skipping a level bracket.  

I think it IS tricky to avoid the problem that EVE has where "catching up" is a long haul of old content.   I think its a tricky balance because theres some good reason for some of that path to be taken more slowly, even if its inconvenient and a potentially long road.  

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Ginkawa said:

personally I am not an Operator-hater,  but don't you think that is a *bit* of overkill?   and wouldn't the fight be utterly trivial with that level of advancement and experience?  (I have been away for most of the time since POE and now, so basically I came to Sacrifice pretty soon after starting on POE content, and being a little out of practice) 

I am all for things to utilize and encourage utilization of the Operator/Frame synergy.   I find playing with that in mind is decidedly enriched from when I played before POE.

but I think what you describe sets the bar arbitrarily high for no reason.  MR10 or 12 maybe, I think could be reasonable.   Operator/Amp arcanes, unlocked waybounds, thats just silly.  

struggle means education.  if you aren't gonna struggle there, you're gonna struggle and feel arbitrarily held back somewhere else. 

No. I think it's fair & fits the Stage of the Game Sacrifice is designed for.

I'll break it down:

Magus Husk Rank 2 only Grant's 150hp, Rank 3 200.

Umbra's Radial Spear hits an Unarmored Operator for 250hp. An Operator with Amps unlocked has only 250hp. So it's a 1 hit KO.

With Maxed Husk the Operator has 450hp. So the player has a chance at not dieing instantly. At least enough hp to pop a Health pad.

Vazarin's HP boost is better but not as easily attainable as not every player starts as Vazarin. But to leave it out as an option is an insult to Vazarin Tenno.

The Mote Amp is equal to pissing on Umbra or shooting him with a Squirt Gun.

A guilded 1-1-1 Amp can defeat Umbra before he should be able to kill the Player.

Anything over 1-1-1 will hand Umbra his ass on a Primed Platter.

The High MR requirement is try & encourage/coerce by players to level Amps for MR as MR stops coming easily by MR 13 impo.

Also MR16 I believe it where Rivens stops. So it feels like a good checkpoint.

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I was using Molt Amp during that fight, was really horrible during first few death. But I kind of adapt it by playing patiently, Void Dash to the other side whenever he come close, and shoot him when he's chasing me. I kinda like it though, the feeling of overcoming difficulties like Dark Souls or Bloodborne.

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1 hour ago, Ginkawa said:


I think hitting Second dream in 2 weeks after starting is insane and rushing through the game WAY too fast. (or playing way too much to be healthy)  I think trying to structure out that pacing so they aren't hitting Sacrifice with only a month of play under their belt is more the way to go.  

I played a little bit a very very very very long time ago.  quit,  came back and played a fairly good chunk during the time leading up to POE,  quit, came back in the last couple weeks.    

I think if you are rushing the content that hard, its not unreasonable that its pretty difficult.   

its DEFINITELY doable with the mote amp.  a little frustrating until you get the hang of void-dash-kiting him,  but I think like some of the MR tests, its an educational, useful challenge to overcome.   in a LOT of games if you go through expansion content one after the other without maxing out each one's stuff, you will be challenged at points because its throttled for people who have been playing the previous max content for at least a little while.  you are functionally skipping a level bracket.  

I think it IS tricky to avoid the problem that EVE has where "catching up" is a long haul of old content.   I think its a tricky balance because theres some good reason for some of that path to be taken more slowly, even if its inconvenient and a potentially long road.  

 

 

Actually i would not consider getting to the second dream quest in 2 weeks as rushing.

As a friend of mine started playing on PC and I rolled a new account to play with them for a bit and you can reach the war within quest in just over 2 weeks.

True the newer content was created with veterans in mind but they are still readily accessible to brand new player - with little restrictions or little progression to access. A starter player is objective driven until they get the hang of the game and since the specter of the rails update the "quest line" drives you straight towards the second dream - with little guidance inbetween.

For a beginner, warframe progression seems simple at first - unlock all modes and increase mastery and complete the quests. It won't be until you hit the level wall that the player looks for 3rd party sources to figure more out or quit out of frustration. 

Warframe needs to re-review how players progress thru the game - like I personally feel ever planets deserves a short quest line to help explain characters and improve the games narrative. Because there is a lot of systems that do not really connect or build off each other - which doesn't help with player progression. 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

No. I think it's fair & fits the Stage of the Game Sacrifice is designed for.

I'll break it down:

Magus Husk Rank 2 only Grant's 150hp, Rank 3 200.

Umbra's Radial Spear hits an Unarmored Operator for 250hp. An Operator with Amps unlocked has only 250hp. So it's a 1 hit KO.

With Maxed Husk the Operator has 450hp. So the player has a chance at not dieing instantly. At least enough hp to pop a Health pad.

Vazarin's HP boost is better but not as easily attainable as not every player starts as Vazarin. But to leave it out as an option is an insult to Vazarin Tenno.

The Mote Amp is equal to pissing on Umbra or shooting him with a Squirt Gun.

A guilded 1-1-1 Amp can defeat Umbra before he should be able to kill the Player.

Anything over 1-1-1 will hand Umbra his ass on a Primed Platter.

The High MR requirement is try & encourage/coerce by players to level Amps for MR as MR stops coming easily by MR 13 impo.

Also MR16 I believe it where Rivens stops. So it feels like a good checkpoint.

IMO your laying it out demonstrates my very point. 

I don't think you SHOULD be able to succeed without getting your butt kicked and having to adapt and overcome. 

IIRC when you enter into that fight, Ordis is clearly afraid you are gonna get utterly destroyed (both for your sake and because it would mean being left alone again)  I think you SHOULD have this "OMFG I can't do ANYTHING before he kills me, what the hell" moment where you have to collect yourself and try a different approach SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE you are not properly equipped to face the challenge in front of you. 

 I think that if you could win without dying repeatedly would diminish the quest to a rail duel with extra steps and long winded exposition.  

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Akabane85 said:

I was using Molt Amp during that fight, was really horrible during first few death. But I kind of adapt it by playing patiently, Void Dash to the other side whenever he come close, and shoot him when he's chasing me. I kinda like it though, the feeling of overcoming difficulties like Dark Souls or Bloodborne.

I completely agree,  having to figure out the rythm of burning your void-dash charge to get across the room, spin and target with the beam until he gets close then dash across away again. 

[edit: and I think that the learning experience of having to overcome this, adds a lot of depth and value to the event]

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Warframe needs to re-review how players progress thru the game - like I personally feel ever planets deserves a short quest line to help explain characters and improve the games narrative. Because there is a lot of systems that do not really connect or build off each other - which doesn't help with player progression. 

I still think 2 weeks to TSD seems super fast.  but I could be wrong. 

I think there is definitely room for improvement in pacing, and I think it seems plausible that the system is getting to stacking up enough layered systems to need a bit more management in this regard.  progressing through the system map,  gathering alternate frames and MR,  getting TSD&TWW,  ect... getting a decent amp,   seems like it might either way, result in hitting a bit of a wall unless theres some revision and re-pacing going on. 

Edited by Ginkawa
didn't finish thought.
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10 hours ago, Ginkawa said:

IMO your laying it out demonstrates my very point. 

I don't think you SHOULD be able to succeed without getting your butt kicked and having to adapt and overcome. 

IIRC when you enter into that fight, Ordis is clearly afraid you are gonna get utterly destroyed (both for your sake and because it would mean being left alone again)  I think you SHOULD have this "OMFG I can't do ANYTHING before he kills me, what the hell" moment where you have to collect yourself and try a different approach SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE you are not properly equipped to face the challenge in front of you. 

 I think that if you could win without dying repeatedly would diminish the quest to a rail duel with extra steps and long winded exposition.  

So you think the game should be designed/balanced around the player dieing constantly & endlessly until they have whittled the boss to death?

No disrespect intended but that is extremely bad game design. DE only designed (I believe they hotfixed it in) Umbra's HP & Shields to not Regen because they people who didn't invest in their Operator literally could not defeat him.

All Story Quests need to be beatable. Deliberately designing a fight to kill the player with OHK (One Hit Kills) is not a good design.

The Umbra fight did 1 thing well. It opened many players eyes to the Operator side of the game & gave them a reason to start pursuing the development of the Operator.

The downside is that many players like the OP are extremely unhappy with being killed 47 times before they won the fight.

Look...

A good boss fight can kill the player, & should be designed to kill the player. However it also needs to be beatable in 1 life & allow the player the opportunity to use their items, abilities, & strategy to overcome the boss fight.

No boss battle should ever be designed to be beaten by dieing.

Take Undertale's Sans fight. It kills most players A LOT but it is designed to be beaten in 1 life. It simply takes practice.

Umbra however, IF E were to reset the fight after every death (like a good game, nearly every single game on the market does) then an extreme portion of the playerbase would not be able to beat him.

To be quite honest...

If you beat Umbra by dieing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

XECAbE3jenjwyQeomS3q7JoZTQc=.gif

Then you did not beat him & you did not "earn" your clear of Sacrifice nor did you honestly earn Umbra himself.

You won because the game gave you a handicap/pitied you.

That's not how a Quest and content this late in the game should function.

"Oh. Just give it to them, they're damaged people." -Said no Game Developer ever

Its unacceptable.

The idea/requirements (not perfect by any means) I laid out would encourage players to develop their Operators to the bare minimum requirement to fight & beat Umbra.

They could survive 1 Radial Javelin and 1 combo. Any more & they will die.

But with preparation, reflexes, & strategy Umbra is beatable in 1 go.

If the player dies they simply can perfect their strategy & when they beat him it'll feel earned & rewarding. Like hell...Dark Souls.

Does Dark Souls resemble the boss or keep them weakened till you whittle them to death?

Hell even Mario & Sonic games reset the Boss.

TL:DR

Boss fights should be designed to kill a player but also be beatable in 1 attempt. The requirement for said boss fight should be balanced well enough to just barely clear the boss fight by weaker players in 1 life with practice.

No fight should be designed on the player winning by dieing until the boss can no longer fight anymore.

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Am 18.6.2018 um 10:22 schrieb Chewarette:

Yeah just advice to someone who is MR6-8 to just wait literal weeks before actually being able to continue the questline, what a great idea.

This is grindframe.
In my eyes some quests/missions are just not meant to be played by newbies.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

So you think the game should be designed/balanced around the player dieing constantly & endlessly until they have whittled the boss to death?

No disrespect intended but that is extremely bad game design. DE only designed (I believe they hotfixed it in) Umbra's HP & Shields to not Regen because they people who didn't invest in their Operator literally could not defeat him.

 

You have some valid points, but not giving us a proper tutorial on amps, gear & skills for the Operator and then throwing a high-level content on us is even worse game design. All we get is basically "search the quills"... At this point the nerf seems like the only viable solution.

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2 hours ago, Harrock86 said:

You have some valid points, but not giving us a proper tutorial on amps, gear & skills for the Operator and then throwing a high-level content on us is even worse game design. All we get is basically "search the quills"... At this point the nerf seems like the only viable solution.

Agreed. 100%

The 1 aspect of Warframe we ALL can agree on is that Warframe's Tutorial systems (do they exist?!) Need an extreme revamp & in many cases...need to be added!

Personally.

Rather than have Onkko give us a Mote Amp. I'd have him give us a quest where we find "Guaranteed" materials, then he instantly crafts it & then teach us how to assemble it, & finally how to use it.

I could go over all the Tutorials I'd add to the game. But...it's veer too far off topic I fear.

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On 2018-07-31 at 9:25 AM, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

I admit this is a good point.

I think that much like weapons since the retune/rebalance. Warframe quests need to be MR Locked & they need to have an equipment requirement.

The Sacrifice should be MR 16, require a Crafted Guilded Amp (Meaning The Mote Amp is out), & require The Operator to have HP past the base HP (IE: Vazarin's Enduring Tides (Rank II or III), or Magus Vigor Rank 3) bare minimum. That way players can:
1. See & FEEL the difference in the power of their Operator by improving their AMP & Guilding it, focusing (heh...) on Focus Nodes, and/or investing in Operator Arcanes.
2. Gain an understanding of the mechanics in game balanced around the Operator.
3. Not struggle on content that requires The Operator.

Someone is probably furiously smashing their fingers on their keyboard about how they don't want to be "forced" to play and/or invest time & effort into their Operator.
Well listen, to a certain Extent Operators are one of the true Endgame Mechanics of Warframe. Their growth is perhaps the one portion of Warframe that takes consistent time, effort, & cannot be sped up by trading (outside of Arcanes).
Their growth also is gradual but dramatically noticeable, and they are at the Core if not "THE" core of the Warframe storyline. So they are here to stay, content will use them more & more.
Chains of Harrow & Sacrifice are mere precursors to what's to come for our Operators the synergy between Operator & Warframe is key moving forward.

If you keep refusing to invest & improve your Operator...well...

2f0cey.jpg

 

Fk off with that operator hp requirement i'm using husk and nourishment and dont use vazarin

Edited by (PS4)Schobii564
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Ah come on, I did that quest the first time with an ungilded Mote Amp, no arcanes and only the Zenurik Energy Regen Dash. Yea it is frustrating until you learn how to kite Umbra around, after that it's actually quite easy.

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Much like the Jordas Golem fight, it seems that most people complaining about this fight didn't bother practicing/enhancing their gear (in this case, the operator).

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3 hours ago, (PS4)iQuedas said:

Much like the Jordas Golem fight, it seems that most people complaining about this fight didn't bother practicing/enhancing their gear (in this case, the operator).

Two separate issues. In the case of The Sacrifice, many people are unaware enhancement gear is even an option. For Jordas/Archwing, it appears to be simpler and faster to do 20 minute long boss fights to get your gear than it is to farm up enough mods to actually advance archwing.

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  • 3 weeks later...

A bit late to the party but I'll just add my two cents.

I started playing WF about three weeks ago and I'm absolutely loving it. Gotten to MR14 with, according to steam, 200 hours played.

I wouldn't say that I've been rushing the quests at all. I've been doing different things and then when I felt that "Ok I want to do something a bit different", that's when I've spent an hour or two on a quest.

All of them have gone quite well (I didn't much care for all the trial and error in War Within but that's beside the point) up until the fight with Umbra.

My Operator is completely vanilla, I haven't done a single thing with him gearwise. The reason for this? I had no idea you could gear the operator until tonight. And the reason I found that out tonight is because of the brick wall I hit with Umbra and I had to go on a google-hunt to find out what the hell I was doing wrong.

Like people have mentioned, I do agree that things should not be handed to you, putting the effort in is what makes it rewarding after all, especially in a game such as this. And while much of this game's mechanics and inner workings needs to be researched outside of the game itself, I really do not think that should apply to the main questline.

So, I'm off to do some more research on how to gear my operator I guess. 😅

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Here is the combo:

When he comes close swap to your warframe,then bullet jump + Jump + 5(key for swaping to the opereator) and then attack and repeat all of this again.RIP Umbra.

Just in case u dont get it,here is a guy that does nearly the same thing:

Edited:You can ignore this guy above,i laser umbra from up the stairs,not on the center of the area,and everytime he walks up i get to the other side of the map.

Now here is a thing that im not 100% sure bcs. i didnt played this quest for months.

So i think that i somehow fooled umbra into attacking my warframe ,and that hes exalted blade cant go trough my invulnerable warframe,but im not 100% sure.

Whatever just keep the distance,and fight him up the stairs.

Edited2:If u dont know how to do a long jump,then just try to Bullet Jump + Jump and then hold Right Click with Ctrl(Which is the PC button for slide).

Edited by CyberMemes
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Cheers, that was way easier than I thought, did it without hassle the first try after your advice.

I was just running around in the operator before and eventually got killed by Umbra, and then I guess you're sort of stunned a bit when you get transferred back to your warframe and I wouldn't have time to get away. With this tactic of hopping back into the warframe before he reaches the operator, switching location, getting out and then repeat was a lot easier.

The rest of the quest was easypeasy but... spacemom 😞 

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I just started this quest today as a player that started about 3 weeks ago. The lack of a tutorial for the operator is a huge problem. I cam here from a google search to figure out why I had to do such a ridiculous boss battle as the operator. Thankfully I stuck it out and beat the fight after an hour with what I now understand is an operator with absolutely no upgrades. All the things mentioned in this thread about 'amps' and what not are not explained or even introduced at all. I didn't even know they existed before finding this thread to figure out what the deal with this fight was. 

This is the main flaw I've found with this game, it is extremely bad at explaining, let alone even hinting, that new concepts exist suddenly and how to go about learning and applyingt them.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Adding my 2 cents.

I'm not the best at kiting, I died 5 million times in operator mode - I was even cheesing it.

 

Limbo, Press Shift, press 5, shoot umbra, die, press shift, press 5, shoot umbra, die.

It took me a good 40 minutes of hellish torment to get my never before used operator to take down Umbra's shield. I I got it, I transference'd into umbra, i got extraction - half way to extraction I got hit by something while I was in the rift, I don't even know what hit me, I just died and I died fast.

 

I HAD NO IDEA AMPS EVEN EXISTED!

How can I get to this point in the quest lines and not even know amps exist? The game simply did not tell me, a kind gentleman from recruitment chat told me that The Sacrifice is only soloable so my plee for help was pointless. But he asked me what amp set up i was using... What is an amp? I had no clue - he took me to cetus and told me to go into operator mode and run through a wall I didn't even know was there let alone knew it was a door to a faction I didn't know existed.

 

The developers have failed throughout their entire game to have explanations to ANYTHING and the codex just isn't enough to learn everything you need to know, that should be some sort of tutorial aspect to the game not a strategy or a mod set up on your favourite frame, that stuff is for the community to work out. Things like, an entire faction, or a weapon for your operator you didn't even unlock access to until 65% of the way through the main story quest line, which is more than possible to complete at mastery level 4+ with a decently built out hek & atomos (which is exactly what I used).

 

I am Mastery Rank 12 - I have moderate to low skill at this game and I have spent countless hours in the codex and on wiki. But to do a quest I unlocked accidentally I needed something I had no idea existed. How am I supposed to wiki it, or codex it, or forum search it for tips, advice or general "how to" if I have no idea it even exists.

The original poster has a very very very valid point, and while making it easier should or should not be considered, some sort of in game guidance to things the game expects you to know about would be GREATLY appreciated by any and every player than hasn't been playing the game consistently since launch.

 

All you people saying "gear up" maybe right... but you can't "gear up" if you don't know how.

Try being useful, or don't post.

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