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How likely do you think it is the "umbra" polarity will be removed?


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12 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

It's not about power creep.

 

It's about the fact that it's clear that Sentient content is going to be more of a focus in upcoming updates, and the Umbral mods offer both a small upgrade over the normal stats and an ancillary buff to fighting them. It means that Excalibur Umbra is by an unreasonable margin the optimal choice. That kills any kind of team diversity.

Which is exactly why they would keep it to Umbra and not make it into a pseudo-mandatory set of mods. With or without the mods, we have been fighting Sentients without falling back to "optimal choices". By making the mods universally accessible to everyone, you would just create a situation where almost everyone would be using those mods in combination on almost every build. I believe people are overestimating the value of the Tau resistance and bonus damage to Sentients. 

I'm very certain that people will have their own team diversity with or without the restrictions of Umbra. Even if Umbra gets a small advantage with the additional mod effects against Sentients, it does not reduce the value of other abilities on other Warframes. Tau resistance will not replace the function of abilities like Volt's Electric Shield and that will be what makes people use things other than Umbra against Sentients.

However, if you made those mods easily accessible to everyone, you would make them completely replace the Vitality, Steel Fiber and Intensify.

10 minutes ago, Zilotz said:

Actually you have no way to powercreep with those 3 mods... Just you do not have space in builds for those 3 and separately they aren't so powerful.

Exactly the point. If they made it possible for them to fit into every other frame, anything that uses Health, Armor and Power Strength would get a significant boost over everything else in the game. As it currently stands, it only efficient on Excalibur Umbra and that comes with all of its advantages and disadvantages. If you could put those mods on Nidus with half the cost by giving Umbral Polarities to him, it would end up in that exact situation. Right now, we have a situation where you can put those mods on Nidus but it comes with such a steep price which means you can't have it all.

Giving Umbral Polarities as an option would allow the game to power creep itself.

Edited by Flandyrll
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6 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

you could put those mods on Nidus with half the cost by giving Umbral Polarities to him, it would end up in that exact situation.

Not so much, bit bigger HP pool and bit of extra armor won't save Nidus from being Nidus.

I don't see a way i could actually use all 3 mods efficiently at all even if i have umbra polarities on demand everywhere.

You can call me a heretic but i don't even have Vitality or Rediraction on every frame. Just don't have enough slots already in my builds.

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You all cry about those umbra mods for those tau stats, but you must remember that we have Mesa and A LOT of other broken frames that can do the job better even without those mods. 

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Just now, Zilotz said:

Not so much, bit bigger HP pool and bit of extra armor won't save Nidus from being Nidus.

I don't see a way i could actually use all 3 mods efficiently at all even if i have umbra polarities on demand everywhere.

You can call me a heretic but i don't even have Vitality or Rediraction on every frame. Just don't have enough slots already in my builds.

Then how would allowing other frames from polarizing an Umbral polarity help the situation?

We're on the same page here but I don't see why you believe allowing it to be placed onto everyone else is a good idea. Just because you don't personally use them does not mean that they do not affect existing mods. I would have very little use for them myself but some Chroma and Rhino players would get double the value of their Vitality, Steel Fiber and Intensify with no drawbacks. DE would be opening a door to a whole lot of noise about how we need to have more Umbra mods for every type of build by making them universal.

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46 minutes ago, Zilotz said:

Forma supposed to be universal polarity tool.

Now we have polarity we can only remove but not put.

Seems logical that this polarity should behave the same way with formas as every other polarity, right?

Forma was never a universal polarity tool. You can't add a stance polarity to your rifle because it was only intended for melee weapons. You can't add a precept polarity to your warframe, because it is only intended for your companions. And you can't add a umbral polarity to your other warframes, because it is only intended for Umbra (current + possible future frames). It's perfectly in line with how polarities and forma work.

Edited by rune_me
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Lads, in all seriousness, have y'all actually tested this? Pop into Simulacrum and spawn a bunch of Conculysts and Battalysts at, call it level 50. Pop Umbra's Exalted Blade and start swishing. Press 2 halfway through this process. You will kill them all in seconds, in a way which other Warframes cannot.

 

Keeps working up to level 70. 80. 100.

 

Try fighting them as your Operator, with a maxed out Amp, and you'll see that Umbra is superior, better at killing Sentients than the Operator.

Try fighting them with a different Warframe, and they'll adapt and take longer to kill again.

Edited by BornWithTeeth
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3 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Let me repeat it with more detail then:

Umbral mods make Umbra into a 'frame with (at maxed out mods) more power strength, more armour, and more hitpoints than other 'frames, for the same usage of mod slots, plus an extra ancillary stat of 33% Tau Resistance. Now, if Tau Resistance means that Umbra is thus able to operate in environments where other Warframes will take, say, 33% more damage? Or where other Warframes will have 33% less Hitpoints? Or regenerate 33% less energy? Then Umbra goes from being merely a strong choice to being the only sensible choice.

 

3

Umbral mods might give Excal Umbra an edge but it doesn't outperform half the unique builds people come up with. Tau resistance reduce Sentient Damage by 33% Just because umbra has it doesn't make other frame's survival any less likely. Rhino/Inaros/Nidus(with stacks)/Valkyr etc etc will still have more survivability compared to umbra, even squishy frames can survive anything if you move around enough. And if Umbra was specifically designed to fight sentients which seems highly likely, I see no problem, no different than having Equinox focus farming missions or Nekros farming missions. Your weapons will still kill sentients fast enough to barely get damaged by them. The Umbral mods were made for Excal Umbra to use and DE isn't going to change it. It doesn't make him any stronger than the next warframe with an optimized build other than regular Excalibur and Excalibur Prime. 

 

 

 

Edited by ShadowExodus
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3 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Lads, in all seriousness, have y'all actually tested this? Pop into Simulacrum and spawn a bunch of Conculysts and Battalysts at, call it level 50. Pop Umbra's Exalted Blade and start swishing. Press 2 halfway through this process. You will kill them all in seconds, in a way which other Warframes cannot.

 

Keeps working up to level 70. 80. 100.

 

Try fighting them as your Operator, with a maxed out Amp, and you'll see that Umbra is superior, better at killing Sentients than the Operator.

Try fighting them with a different Warframe, and they'll adapt and take longer to kill again.

Pretty sure Umbra being more effective against sentients was the point 

Edited by ShadowExodus
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17 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

Umbral mods might give Excal Umbra an edge but it doesn't outperform half the unique builds people come up with. Tau resistance reduce Sentient Damage by 33% Just because umbra has it doesn't make other frame's survival any less likely. Rhino/Inaros/Nidus(with stacks)/Valkyr etc etc will still have more survivability compared to umbra, even squishy frames can survive anything if you move around enough. And if Umbra was specifically designed to fight sentients which seems highly likely, I see no problem, no different than having Equinox focus farming missions or Nekros farming missions. Your weapons will still kill sentients fast enough to barely get damaged by them. The Umbral mods were made for Excal Umbra to use and DE isn't going to change it. It doesn't make him any stronger than the next warframe with an optimized build other than regular Excalibur and Excalibur Prime. 

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

Pretty sure Umbra being more effective against sentients was the point 

So...which is it? Is Umbra no big deal, or is it ok because Umbra is meant to be a big deal?

 

 

Besides which, I'm not arguing that the Umbral Polarity is inherently a bad idea, nor am I arguing for it to be automatically available for all 'frames. I am saying that if DE have given us a single dedicated Sentient killer 'frame, right at the same time as they hint that the Sentients are going to be more and more important, then matchmaking in the future is going to be boring as hell, and I hope you like Excalibur Umbra, because he's mostly what you're going to be seeing. 

 

To prevent that kind of monoculture, if DE have decided that Umbra is just how things work now, then it would probably be good for the game to allow access to some kind of similar tier upgrade to at least a couple of other 'frames. Give us 

 

Making sense?

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According to screenshots of support replies I've seen, Umbra mods are intended to work most effectively with Umbra frames, therefore we won't be able to forma other frames with Umbra polarity. Whether we will be able to add Umbra polarity to Umbra frames is unknown.

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28 minutes ago, rune_me said:

You can't add a stance polarity to your rifle because

Because it does not have stance slot. But stance polarities are the same for mods. Forma is not a tool to create more slots.

30 minutes ago, rune_me said:

You can't add a precept polarity to your warframe, because it

Has no mods of the polarity you can put on warframe so it gives nothing.

On the other hand... Umbra mods are intended to work on every warframe.

Don't say they aren't intended to work, they have "WARFRAME" at bottom, not Umbra.

So logical would be to have forma for that polarity too.

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10 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

 

So...which is it? Is Umbra no big deal, or is it ok because Umbra is meant to be a big deal?

 

 

Besides which, I'm not arguing that the Umbral Polarity is inherently a bad idea, nor am I arguing for it to be automatically available for all 'frames. I am saying that if DE have given us a single dedicated Sentient killer 'frame, right at the same time as they hint that the Sentients are going to be more and more important, then matchmaking in the future is going to be boring as hell, and I hope you like Excalibur Umbra, because he's mostly what you're going to be seeing. 

 

To prevent that kind of monoculture, if DE have decided that Umbra is just how things work now, then it would probably be good for the game to allow access to some kind of similar tier upgrade to at least a couple of other 'frames. Give us 

 

Making sense?

We are making a lot of leaps of assumptions here though. Ranging from extremely large portions of the game being nothing but Sentients and that the damage resistance mechanic is going to be included in a very large portion of the game. If we end up in that situation where everyone is using Umbra, then it can be addressed then. However, there is no need to preemptively address the situation and allow Umbra Polarities to be thrown around everywhere.

As it currently stands, a regular Excalibur can still use those Umbra mods although to a lower efficiency so the gap is not as significant. Especially if you consider the variety involved.

Edited by Flandyrll
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1 minute ago, Zilotz said:

Because it does not have stance slot. But stance polarities are the same for mods. Forma is not a tool to create more slots.

Has no mods of the polarity you can put on warframe so it gives nothing.

On the other hand... Umbra mods are intended to work on every warframe.

Don't say they aren't intended to work, they have "WARFRAME" at bottom, not Umbra.

So logical would be to have forma for that polarity too.

Eh. It's fine for them to function on all Warframes but really only be feasible on Umbra 'frames. My gripe is that it means that in Sentient content, matchmaking is going to be boring. All Excalibur Umbra, all the time.

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Just now, Flandyrll said:

We are making a lot of leaps of assumptions here though. Ranging from extremely large portions of the game being nothing but Sentients and that the damage resistance mechanic is going to be included in a very large portion of the game. If we end up in that situation where everyone is using Umbra, then it can be addressed then. However, there is no need to preemptively address the situation and allow Umbra Polarities to be thrown around everywhere.

As it currently stands, a regular Excalibur can still use those Umbra mods although to a lower efficiency so the gap is not as significant.

That is quite fair, but we do know for a fact that DE at least intend for there to be more intensively Sentient-focused content coming, and we've known this since well before the release of The Sacrifice. There is concept art for Sentient habitats and for more imposing Sentient enemies, in some cases art which suggests that modeling for those enemies has begun. Now, Natah has awoken, and intends to find her own progenitors, and the Tenno are apparently preparing to follow her.

 

I'd just hate to see a situation where there's major content going on, and one Warframe which is vastly superior to others at handling that content. If DE could pick a handful of 'frames with some generally diverse ability sets and some interesting lore grounding and offer Umbra upgrades to them, it will mean that playing that content will be less of a sausage fest, and by sausage fest I of course mean Exalted Blade fest.

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48 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Lads, in all seriousness, have y'all actually tested this? Pop into Simulacrum and spawn a bunch of Conculysts and Battalysts at, call it level 50. Pop Umbra's Exalted Blade and start swishing. Press 2 halfway through this process. You will kill them all in seconds, in a way which other Warframes cannot.

 

Keeps working up to level 70. 80. 100.

 

Try fighting them as your Operator, with a maxed out Amp, and you'll see that Umbra is superior, better at killing Sentients than the Operator.

Try fighting them with a different Warframe, and they'll adapt and take longer to kill again.

Managed to kill 20 sentients of 155 lvl 😄

 

Can anyone tell me how to keep good quality in an uploaded video during action? Because on my pc it looks perfect but gets pixelated on youtube.

Edited by Ksaero
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21 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I'd just hate to see a situation where there's major content going on, and one Warframe which is vastly superior to others at handling that content. If DE could pick a handful of 'frames with some generally diverse ability sets and some interesting lore grounding and offer Umbra upgrades to them, it will mean that playing that content will be less of a sausage fest, and by sausage fest I of course mean Exalted Blade fest.

Pretty sure that by the time we get this Sentient content, we'll have more than 1 Umbra to choose from.

Edited by Ksaero
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5 hours ago, Clats01 said:

true, however not even Ordis had heard of umbra when we first encounter him. He was effectively an unknown and thus any technology would be unknown and lost therefore it would make sence in the lore for the formas even though they are orokin, Ballas made umbra in secret so maybe the creators of the forma had no idea about it.

Forma is a fundamental material used by Orokin.

Every moving Orokin sculpture you see, being those giant gyroscope-like structures or Anasa sculptures are made out of Forma. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if every single gold-looking piece of wall in Orokin towers wasn't made out of forma.

Are you trying to tell me Ballas did not use the most common material that he used for every single Warframe preceding Umbra for his pet project?

Please, Ordis got a rough idea of what Umbra is from splinters of his armor. What would possibly preventing him from being able to work with umbra polarities after he ALREADY recreated them?

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6 hours ago, Zilotz said:

Actually.. No, i don't think polarity will be romoved.

But i hope they will fix the bug that does not let us use forma to add new polarity.

The polarity is called "Umbra" under the forma polarity list. It only appears on Umbra. Wonder why that is...

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