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In the light of exalted weapon changes, what about Atlas?


Rayha
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His Landslide is still affected by melee mods of your melee weapon, which forces you to dump your melee weapon in order to maximise Landslide. Can we please have a separate window for modding Landslide?

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You may want to include Gara, and Khora, as they are also dependent on the mods of the melee weapons they're holding, but somewhat somehow. I think it's ok for Atlas to not have a separate window for modding Landslide, since Riven mods can also affect Landslide.

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4 minutes ago, Cakeomaru said:

You may want to include Gara, and Khora, as they are also dependent on the mods of the melee weapons they're holding, but somewhat somehow. I think it's ok for Atlas to not have a separate window for modding Landslide, since Riven mods can also affect Landslide.

What what whaaaat

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The main problem with that (outside riven stats) is that if they let us to mod them as another exalted weapons they won't share combo counter with the melee weapons. So each time you change between landslide and melee your combo counter would be reseted. I other words, if you have a x3 combo with melee and use atlas' 1, it would be reset to 1, increased only with another landslide attacks, and once you use your melee weapon they would be reseted again.

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Gara, Khora and Atlas are fine as they are. They are simply #1 skills you shouldnt really try and optimize in the first place because your regular melee option will do a better job at melee. Them scaling from melee is just a bonus and not at all on the same level as exalted weapons which mostly actually replace your other weapons completely.

There is a reason why the 3 scale from rivens, so you dont need to optimize to get a good chunk of stats added to the skills. Add them to the new exalted type of mod setup and they will very likely lose more than they gain due to losing out on rivens. There is no way a dedicated spot will make up for a lost riven, even if it means you have the option to optimize maybe two of the slots.

Lets say you play Atlas, you have a weapon designed for crit on him, it benefits him very little. With a dedicated setup you could remove crit chance and crit damage and add 2 extra pure elemental mods. Well you also lose out on your riven that gave you 250 Damage, 150 crit, 100 toxin and -channel damage. Sure you can squeeze in one more mod instead of that riven.

Well now you still sit at damage values lower than the 250 damage and 100 toxin from the riven, even though you put in 3 "optimal" mods. So you just lost alot of damage potential from the skill.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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4 hours ago, Rayha said:

His Landslide is still affected by melee mods of your melee weapon, which forces you to dump your melee weapon in order to maximise Landslide. Can we please have a separate window for modding Landslide?

No I absolutely abhor this idea, especially since it's just a 1 ability. Exalted weapons completely replace the weapon you are using so it's understandable why DE changed it to be modded separately (But also because I hated the polarities DE gave us for Mesa). If you're running a good melee then your Landslide will be good either way.

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47 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

The really weird one is Ash. His is an actual 4, and the clones use weapons built into the frame to attack.

I do recall DE mentioning at one point that Ash had the original "Exalted weapon", because he had wrist blades before Exalted Blade existed. Hehe

But I'm not sure his would need to be mod-able independently. It's not affected by damage mods because it's pure Finisher damage. I don't think it can crit, and it already has 100% status chance. It is affected by combo counter and attack speed but that's about it. Also, it's not like the old days where he was forced to participate in it...solo. His clones do 95% of the work for you now and you go and kill another group of enemies with your normal weapons. 

5 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

No I absolutely abhor this idea, especially since it's just a 1 ability.

+1.

Landslide is only a 1 ability, it doesn't replace his entire kit and the kit isn't even heavily dependent on it. It doesn't need to be mod-able.

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I think we should properly describe the difference between exalted weapons and abilities that use weapon mods. They are completely different since whenever you use actual exalted weapon your other weapons are NOT accessable. for Gara, Khora, Atlas, you simply use you ability once then carry on with normal gameplay with your weapons.. For exalted weapons, whenever you turn them On you use only that weapon until you turn it off or run out of energy. You cant use your melee or guns with none of these - exalted blade, hysteria, Peacemaker, Artemis bow, wukong's staff or Titania's 4. therefore they are in completely separate class.

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Atlas Punch and exalted weapons share the exact same problems though:

1.) Blackboxing:  The game doesn't show you what stats your punch actually has just as it didn't for Exalted Blade, so you don't know which mods you should use with it or which mods will even WORK with it.  The wiki has information like this after it's been painstakingly reverse engineered by the players, but even assuming that the wiki is correct: on a scale of 0 to 0, how much fun is it to have to pull out the wiki every time you want to change your melee weapon?  Making Exalted Blade independently moddable means that you can immediately and intuitively see how you should mod it and how mods affect it.

2.) Statsticking: Unless your ability-based weapon and your actual physical weapon have exactly the same stats and mod compatibility, you will have to choose one of them to fully optimize. If your main melee weapon has a decent critical chance you probably want to use Blood Rush and Organ Shatter on it.  What if your ability-based weapon doesn't have a decent critical chance...would you still want to equip mods that can't actually be used?  (Answer is: this is a trick question because Atlas Punch can't use Blood Rush even if you have it, and the game will not indicate this to you anywhere.  See: Blackboxing).   The result is that you need to make a decision whether you are going to build your weapon for its OWN stats and mod compatibility, or just write off that weapon and use its mod slots to amplify the ability based attack.  Essentially:  Do you want to give up a weapon slot, or an ability?  The player should not be forced to make this decision, and Exalted weapons having independently moddable slots fixed this for them.

Reality is that exalted weapons are just ability based attacks,  the exact same as things like Atlas punch, Gara's shiv and Khora's whip. Sure their visual effects make it look like you're holding a different weapon but the actual gameplay implications are exactly the same:  You use a warframe ability and weapon mods are tied into the performance of that ability.

Frankly it's unfair to other frames with mod-fueled abilities, *especially* Atlas because punching is basically 80% of Atlas' core design, that they didn't get this buff.

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2 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

The really weird one is Ash. His is an actual 4, and the clones use weapons built into the frame to attack.

In regard to Ash, nothing affects his Blade Storm except global melee damage buffs (Steel Charge) and *most* speed mods. Primed Fury/Fury, Gladiator Vice, and Quickening (if you channel your melee weapon) while Berserker doesn't do anything. This is likely because Blade Storm is affected by the combo multiplier and deals true damage, anything more would be excessive. 

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7 hours ago, Spirit said:

I think we should properly describe the difference between exalted weapons and abilities that use weapon mods. They are completely different since whenever you use actual exalted weapon your other weapons are NOT accessable. for Gara, Khora, Atlas, you simply use you ability once then carry on with normal gameplay with your weapons.. For exalted weapons, whenever you turn them On you use only that weapon until you turn it off or run out of energy. You cant use your melee or guns with none of these - exalted blade, hysteria, Peacemaker, Artemis bow, wukong's staff or Titania's 4. therefore they are in completely separate class.

 

You can't use guns when punching as Atlas. Or melee weapons for that matter. He is effectively "replacing" his kit with his punch for the duration of the strike. Your point is a question of duration and energy economy. That isn't meaningful when discussing the possibility of being modded separately.

I might understand if one made the point that Atlas's Landslide doesn't function at all like a real melee weapon cause of lock-on, not like Wukong's staff or Valkyr's Hysteria, but then again Peacemaker has that as well. 😛 

 

5 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

I'd be okay with this if they gave us Landslide riven mods. Otherwise, please no, that'd be a huge nerf.

As for this... yeah I've got a cool melee riven as well, but that doesn't mean I want to sacrifice versatility in weapon choice/build for it. Properly modded, Landslide does just fine in Sortie level content with or without rivens. 

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6 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

I'd be okay with this if they gave us Landslide riven mods. Otherwise, please no, that'd be a huge nerf.

Also, the last thing I'd want to see is Warframe rivens, trading is enough of a nightmare already.

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On 2018-06-18 at 11:17 PM, RubbleRain said:

You can't use guns when punching as Atlas. Or melee weapons for that matter. He is effectively "replacing" his kit with his punch for the duration of the strike. Your point is a question of duration and energy economy. That isn't meaningful when discussing the possibility of being modded separately.

I might understand if one made the point that Atlas's Landslide doesn't function at all like a real melee weapon cause of lock-on, not like Wukong's staff or Valkyr's Hysteria, but then again Peacemaker has that as well. 😛 

Yes you cant user weapons with Atlas slide but its one time use ability. not a skill you activate and USE as weapon.

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I think for now Atlas is better off with his landslide scaling from melee weapon (and melee rivens). His punch for sure isn't an exalted ability.

By the way Wukong probably is in a weird situation now regarding this as his staff has its own mods now but his 1st ability still scales from melee weapon's mods. But hardly anyone uses Wukong or his 1st ability for that matter (well at least not to an extent that you would mod a weapon for it).

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On 2018-06-18 at 8:02 AM, Momaw said:

Atlas Punch and exalted weapons share the exact same problems though:

1.) Blackboxing:  The game doesn't show you what stats your punch actually has just as it didn't for Exalted Blade, so you don't know which mods you should use with it or which mods will even WORK with it.  The wiki has information like this after it's been painstakingly reverse engineered by the players, but even assuming that the wiki is correct: on a scale of 0 to 0, how much fun is it to have to pull out the wiki every time you want to change your melee weapon?  Making Exalted Blade independently moddable means that you can immediately and intuitively see how you should mod it and how mods affect it.

The wiki is extremely accurate when it comes to the stats of the abilities.  All that needed to be known about the exalted weapons were generally their crit/status  as well aswhatmods did not work on them.  It was generally pretty simple.

 

On 2018-06-18 at 8:02 AM, Momaw said:

2.) Statsticking: Unless your ability-based weapon and your actual physical weapon have exactly the same stats and mod compatibility, you will have to choose one of them to fully optimize. If your main melee weapon has a decent critical chance you probably want to use Blood Rush and Organ Shatter on it.  What if your ability-based weapon doesn't have a decent critical chance...would you still want to equip mods that can't actually be used?

Which is why people using Mesa, Excalibur, Valkyr, generally used weapons as stat sticks or utilized weapons utilizing the same buildastheir exalted weapon.  For example, galatine prime and valkyr's claws would utilize the same type of mods due to both having high crit damage and high slash damage.  It wasn't particularly as difficult as you are makig it appear.

On 2018-06-18 at 8:02 AM, Momaw said:

  (Answer is: this is a trick question because Atlas Punch can't use Blood Rush even if you have it, and the game will not indicate this to you anywhere.  See: Blackboxing).

Atlas punch isn't a weapon, therefore, its not affected by Bloodrush because it doesn't utilize weapon stats. Anyone who goes "why doesn't this weapon which works only with a combo meternot count for atlas punch?"

1. Atlas punch isn't a weapon utilizing a weapon combo meter. It just uses its own UNIQUE combo system.  Doesn't take much to figure it out.

On 2018-06-18 at 8:02 AM, Momaw said:

   The result is that you need to make a decision whether you are going to build your weapon for its OWN stats and mod compatibility, or just write off that weapon and use its mod slots to amplify the ability based attack.  Essentially:  Do you want to give up a weapon slot, or an ability?  The player should not be forced to make this decision, and Exalted weapons having independently moddable slots fixed this for them.

Which is why DE did what they did with exalted weapons.

On 2018-06-18 at 8:02 AM, Momaw said:

Reality is that exalted weapons are just ability based attacks,

No they aren't, exalted weapons are weapons by themselves.  They utilize stances, combometers, damage multiplier based on the combo, and have stats.

On 2018-06-18 at 8:02 AM, Momaw said:

  the exact same as things like Atlas punch, Gara's shiv and Khora's whip.

They aren't, they have no stance, no combo, no damage multiplier, and their stats are standard ability stats rather than weapon stats. NOt comparable in the least.

On 2018-06-18 at 8:02 AM, Momaw said:

Sure their visual effects make it look like you're holding a different weapon but the actual gameplay implications are exactly the same: 

They aren't.

On 2018-06-18 at 8:02 AM, Momaw said:

You use a warframe ability and weapon mods are tied into the performance of that ability.

Being affected by the same mods =/= Same type of ability.

Exalted weapons are abilities that replace your melee weapon/primary/secondary.  As they completely replace the weapon slot,they received their own slot for modding.  Atlas punch doesn't do this, neither does Gara shiv, Khora whip, or Atlas' punch.

On 2018-06-18 at 8:02 AM, Momaw said:

Frankly it's unfair to other frames with mod-fueled abilities, *especially* Atlas because punching is basically 80% of Atlas' core design, that they didn't get this buff.

It isn't unfair, it's not a weapon.  Why rail against this fact? If you want Atlas to have an exalted weapon then he'd have to give up his 4 and have it be a completely seperated exalted fist weapon.  Just like Excalibur.

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49 minutes ago, Aegni said:

Atlas punch isn't a weapon, therefore, its not affected by Bloodrush because it doesn't utilize weapon stats. Anyone who goes "why doesn't this weapon which works only with a combo meternot count for atlas punch?"

1. Atlas punch isn't a weapon utilizing a weapon combo meter. It just uses its own UNIQUE combo system.  Doesn't take much to figure it out.

Which is why DE did what they did with exalted weapons.

No they aren't, exalted weapons are weapons by themselves.  They utilize stances, combometers, damage multiplier based on the combo, and have stats.

They aren't, they have no stance, no combo, no damage multiplier, and their stats are standard ability stats rather than weapon stats. NOt comparable in the least.

Landslide does make use of the melee combo counter though, increasing it and benefiting from its multiplier.

Edited by SteveCutler
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On 2018-06-18 at 6:26 AM, Rayha said:

His Landslide is still affected by melee mods of your melee weapon, which forces you to dump your melee weapon in order to maximise Landslide. Can we please have a separate window for modding Landslide?

People have spend thousands on riven specifically for gara and khora, you will piss A LOT of people off if they throw that plat out man... people will freak.

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19 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

Landslide does make use of the melee combo counter though, increasing it and benefiting from its multiplier.

THank you for the correction, but it still lacks the majority of what it requires to be a weapon. It needs to replace aweapon entirely rather than simply be considerd a two handed action.

It needs to be able to deal out different combos rather than a singular one. It doesn't fulfill those two criteria.So its not an exalted weapon, so it doesnt get a seperate slot.

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