In the light of exalted weapon changes, what about Atlas?

[SolarDwagon]

8 hours ago, Aegni said:

THank you for the correction, but it still lacks the majority of what it requires to be a weapon. It needs to replace aweapon entirely rather than simply be considerd a two handed action.

It needs to be able to deal out different combos rather than a singular one. It doesn't fulfill those two criteria.So its not an exalted weapon, so it doesnt get a seperate slot.

That's a pointless argument about definition when the question is "Would Atlas' Landslide be better mechanically and for QoL if it was independently moddable"

[[DE]Momaw]

So some people are against Landslide, glass shiv and Khora's whip being independently moddable because they they're leveraging this unintended riven interaction...   What about all the people that aren't? What about people that don't have access to rivens, or don't have a suitable roll that synergizes with Landslide, or want to use a melee weapon that doesn't have a 5-dot riven disposition? Why should Atlas, Gara and Khora players have to make these kind of investments and/or compromises when Excalibur, Mesa, Ivara players etc do not?

[[DE]Momaw]

duplicated post

Edited June 21, 2018 by Momaw

[DjKaplis]

16 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Isn't that the case for Excalibur too?

Excalibur has his exalted blade that scales from mods on exalted weapon + gladiator set bonus from mods on warframe and normal melee (but not exalted weapon). His other abilities don't scale from melee mods.

[SteveCutler]

26 minutes ago, Momaw said:

So some people are against Landslide, glass shiv and Khora's whip being independently moddable because they they're leveraging this unintended riven interaction...   What about all the people that aren't? What about people that don't have access to rivens, or don't have a suitable roll that synergizes with Landslide, or want to use a melee weapon that doesn't have a 5-dot riven disposition? Why should Atlas, Gara and Khora players have to make these kind of investments and/or compromises when Excalibur, Mesa, Ivara players etc do not?

What makes you so sure it's unintended? Exalted weapons were never affected by riven mods, but non-Exalted abilities affected by mods are. It could be an oversight, but it could also be intended. They've left it this way for a long time without changing it. Even if it is unintended, as someone else mentioned, people have already spent thousands of platinum on riven mods, so changing it now will annoy a lot of people.

Excalibur players actually can have to make a similar investment if they're running a Slash Dash focused build, because Slash Dash (just like Landslide) benefits from riven mods. It is less common to focus on Slash Dash though.

Personally, I probably would prefer being able to mod Landslide separately, if it could be done without including a nerf. I don't want to lose my riven mods though. The Exalted weapon change was already a nerf to that, losing passives like the Mire toxin bonus and so on. I don't want a nerf to Atlas as well.

[SteveCutler]

2 minutes ago, DjKaplis said:

Excalibur has his exalted blade that scales from mods on exalted weapon + gladiator set bonus from mods on warframe and normal melee (but not exalted weapon). His other abilities don't scale from melee mods.

Actually, this is wrong. Slash Dash scales from melee mods, including riven mods. It works just the same as Landslide and Iron Jab.

Edited June 21, 2018 by SteveCutler

[mactrent]

21 minutes ago, Momaw said:

So some people are against Landslide, glass shiv and Khora's whip being independently moddable because they they're leveraging this unintended riven interaction...   What about all the people that aren't? What about people that don't have access to rivens, or don't have a suitable roll that synergizes with Landslide, or want to use a melee weapon that doesn't have a 5-dot riven disposition? Why should Atlas, Gara and Khora players have to make these kind of investments and/or compromises when Excalibur, Mesa, Ivara players etc do not?

The riven interaction always felt like a bug to me, not a feature.  Though I use it now, I really wouldn't mind losing it for consistency.

Having weapon mods at all affect these not-really-weapon abilities is an awesome way to customize them beyond adding ability strength, and these at least have their stats listed out: damage amounts and types, range, etc, with attack speed for these unique animations (usually) based on Casting Speed.  That was already half the problem the new Exalted system solves, with the other half being how to know which parts of what mods actually apply - like Drifting Contact vs Shattering Impact.  Since they're in the neighborhood with Exalted weapons, it'd make sense for them to extend it here... but since half the problem is already solved, I won't be disappointed if they don't.

[Haeen]

14 hours ago, SolarDwagon said:

That's a pointless argument about definition when the question is "Would Atlas' Landslide be better mechanically and for QoL if it was independently moddable"

Deinition is the basis of the argumrnt. Atlas landslide does not meet the definition of an exalted weapon, ergo, doesn't get a seperate slot.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

On 2018-06-18 at 7:36 AM, Cakeomaru said:

You may want to include Gara, and Khora, as they are also dependent on the mods of the melee weapons they're holding, but somewhat somehow. I think it's ok for Atlas to not have a separate window for modding Landslide, since Riven mods can also affect Landslide.

On 2018-06-18 at 7:41 AM, XaoGarrent said:

The really weird one is Ash. His is an actual 4, and the clones use weapons built into the frame to attack.

yeah Ash was the first one i though had updated into having a exalted weapon, i was sad when i discovered it was just wishful thinking. 
I mean if Mesa got it why not Ash?

[JarodDempsey]

This is a horrible idea and they should absolutely not bring that extra forma noob trap that is new exalted weapons to the likes of skills like atlas gara and khora's. You can still build your melee weapon as you would normally and if the mods are good then you should still have a good landslide. Plus unlike exalted weapons you can also use rivens.

[Littlemike137]

If they change Atlas' landslide to not using rivens, he will be horrible...  No more using tekko riven with 230 dmg, 120 frost 120 fire for huge damage...

[Darkmoone1]

Atlas has been put into a very interesting position because of these Exhalted changes.

He was one of the frames recently reworked. Yet his one remains to be the best aspect of the frame. It deals damage, it closes the distance, and invulns you. Basically everything you want from a first ability. However, what makes it awkward is that it's the main source of Atlas damage, Unlike other melee frames that have their exhalted abilities. Can't follow suit because it's in the same slot slash dash is, but slash dash isn't the main source of damage for Excal. Exhalted Blade is. 

This means that in order for Atlas to get the same treatment, It needs to be an ultimate ability and become an exhalted weapon. Ergo, DE needs to rework Atlas again or at the very least, change the order of abilities around (Which I don't think they would do.). Now you need a new name for his 4, probably with a stance with new animations to equal it to Wukong and Excalibur melee Exhalted weapons, etc.

Basically, more work than I think DE is committed to doing just after reworking him.

[Sasuda]

This is a pretty interesting topic, especially the more I think about it. There some good points on both sides, although I find I tend to agree with having them separate now that "exalted" weapons are separate. The line that defines them is basically only that you do not have a drain while the the weapon is equipped. The problem with the arguments that stem from that is, they aren't the reasons "exalted" weapons were changed in the first place. They were primarily changed due to the way it affected and limited the rest of your load-out. Which the affects these abilities currently as well.

As far as gaining power from Riven mods from all of the "fixes" DE has sprung on us without warning, I'd say it's pretty safe to assume they didn't intend for Riven mods to apply to abilities and it's very likely they will have that feature removed sooner or later.

It's also now a lot more odd and arbitrary that there are abilities that scale off of mods not directly related to the frame. The functionality originally seemed to be more along the lines as an unlisted passive but now are a direct part of some frames.
Seems like some of the problems of the mod system in general are still echoing back around. With all of the mandatory mods and how they work, and slot limits, and Forma, and Rivens, and mod capacity, etc.... That and how abilities deal damage and how that scales in general, and enemies and how they scale, and power levels in general. A lot has changed over time.

In any case the reasons for not seem flimsy to me when the reasons for really match up with the reasons that "exalted"s now have separate modding. It still is a mixed bag and in the end I'm fine with either decision.

[Gurpgork]

On 2018-06-20 at 4:51 PM, Aegni said:

Which is why people using Mesa, Excalibur, Valkyr, generally used weapons as stat sticks or utilized weapons utilizing the same buildastheir exalted weapon.  For example, galatine prime and valkyr's claws would utilize the same type of mods due to both having high crit damage and high slash damage.  It wasn't particularly as difficult as you are makig it appear.

But the Galatine Prime would use Body Count and Blood Rush, neither of which can be used by Hysteria (something that the game doesn't tell you at all). So maybe it's not impossible to make the Galatine Prime not-useless when you statstick it for Hysteria, but you were never going to be able to optimize both of them at the same time, and that is the problem. 

Furthermore, Atlas always had this problem much worse than any other Warframe did. Hysteria is modded about the same as melee weapons were before Acolyte mods existed. Landslide is modded completely differently than any melee weapon is currently modded or ever has been modded, because attack speed is totally irrelevant. There is absolutely no melee weapon in the game where you totally dump stat attack speed and still build for combo duration. 

On 2018-06-20 at 6:01 PM, Aegni said:

THank you for the correction, but it still lacks the majority of what it requires to be a weapon. It needs to replace aweapon entirely rather than simply be considerd a two handed action.

It needs to be able to deal out different combos rather than a singular one. It doesn't fulfill those two criteria.So its not an exalted weapon, so it doesnt get a seperate slot.

I don't think it matters that it doesn't fit the definition of a weapon. It's an unnecessary restriction that severely hampers a Warframe that has never been strong enough to merit hampering in any way. Excalibur, Valkyr, and Mesa have all been much stronger Warframes than Atlas for as long as Atlas has existed, and yet they got this buff while Atlas didn't. That doesn't make sense. 

12 hours ago, JarodDempsey said:

You can still build your melee weapon as you would normally and if the mods are good then you should still have a good landslide.

But I can't make Landslide and my melee weapon as good as they could be at the same time. Even if Landslide can still be good if I don't statstick it, that still doesn't justify the fact that whether or not I statstick is a decision I have to make in the first place. 

12 hours ago, JarodDempsey said:

Plus unlike exalted weapons you can also use rivens.

I would be extremely surprised if this stayed in the game. In fact, I'd be willing to bet actual money that it's an oversight. 

4 hours ago, Littlemike137 said:

If they change Atlas' landslide to not using rivens, he will be horrible...  No more using tekko riven with 230 dmg, 120 frost 120 fire for huge damage...

First of all, that's not really true. I don't use Rivens at all, and Landslide is still pretty damn powerful. It scales tremendously well with things like combo duration, Naramon, and Kavat crit boosts. Rivens add a lot of damage, but they are far from being the only way to make Landslide hit like a train. 

Also, if Landslide really would be useless without Riven mods, then it's got some serious design problems. Rivens are rare, expensive mods that require a ton of Kuva farming and multiple layers of RNG to make them work, and under no circumstances should any part of that process be required to make a Warframe's main damage ability functional. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Gurpgork

[SteveCutler]

If they were to make this change, then they could buff Landslide to compensate for the loss of riven mods. You might say Landslide is strong enough without them, but many people are using riven mods, and nobody likes random nerfs to their abilities or equipment.

[Littlemike137]

17 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Also, if Landslide really would be useless without Riven mods, then it's got some serious design problems. Rivens are rare, expensive mods that require a ton of Kuva farming and multiple layers of RNG to make them work, and under no circumstances should any part of that process be required to make a Warframe's main damage ability functional. 

I didn't say that it would be useless, or that it is ineffective without rivens.  I just meant that without them you take away a huge source of damage potential.  Atlas should not have his fists as an exalted weapon because 1: they don't remove his other weapons when he uses them  2: they aren't a toggled ability like, for example, exalted blade.  Therefore, it makes sense that riven mods that affect melee also effect landslide, because it is just a melee attack that happens to be an ability, like slash dask.

EDIT: This is speaking as a long time Atlas fan, he has been my favorite warframe since day one, the one I have worked the hardest for and to build, and my go to for things like the Index, Sorties, PoE (its fun to bullet-jump and punch a dargyn out of the sky.)

Edited June 23, 2018 by Littlemike137
More info

[Haeen]

22 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

But the Galatine Prime would use Body Count and Blood Rush, neither of which can be used by Hysteria (something that the game doesn't tell you at all). So maybe it's not impossible to make the Galatine Prime not-useless when you statstick it for Hysteria, but you were never going to be able to optimize both of them at the same time, and that is the problem. 

Except that you would use drifting contact which provide combo extension on top of status chance which did affect hysteria. Rather than blood rush, you would utilize true steel to provide the critical chance buff. It wasn't as if it wasn't possible to build them similarly, particularly with condition overload being used by the claws as well.

In either case, it was a seperate weapon from gp, hence why they seperate it. When it comes to atlas, he doesn't use a seperate weapon, it is simply an ability. The definition of the ability is important and landslide does not fit the same behaviors as an exalted weapon.

 

[Xaentrick]

On 2018-06-18 at 7:42 AM, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I do recall DE mentioning at one point that Ash had the original "Exalted weapon", because he had wrist blades before Exalted Blade existed. Hehe

But I'm not sure his would need to be mod-able independently. It's not affected by damage mods because it's pure Finisher damage. I don't think it can crit, and it already has 100% status chance. It is affected by combo counter and attack speed but that's about it. Also, it's not like the old days where he was forced to participate in it...solo. His clones do 95% of the work for you now and you go and kill another group of enemies with your normal weapons.

You are correct about hearing that. He was the first warframe with a built in weapon in game. As much as I would be yelled at for saying it. I think it would be rather fitting that he have an actual exalted weapon. Let's face it, those blades might as well not exist with his current iteration of bladestorm. Clones do all the killing, while yes you can opt in to do it as well. I'm not exactly sure I've seen anyone ever did that. While I know the devs want to keep the frames length when they do the reworks but saying Ash's identity is tied to bladestorm is like saying Excalibur was defined by radial javelin in the old days. While yes it was what people built around, it was because that was his strongest ability. They could easily do the same for Ash, as he is stealth frame with the bonus of being focused on offense as much as stealth. Though this is just me rambling at this point.

[SteveCutler]

After thinking on this some more, I think I really do want this change. It would be very nice to have an actual melee weapon instead of a stat stick, especially considering how Atlas's Landslide shares the melee combo counter, making it feel good to fluidly switch between Landslide and a normal melee weapon. Making Landslide separately moddable would let us use a real melee weapon, just like Excalibur, Valkyr, etc. get to do now.

However, this must be accompanied by a Landslide buff to compensate for the loss of riven mods. Honestly, I feel like Atlas needs a buff in general, even putting the riven thing aside. I find his kit and playstyle similar to Excalibur's, but Excalibur (especially Umbra) is just superior. Exalted Blade is way stronger than Landslide, especially when modded for attack speed, with the Chromatic Blade augment, with Arcane Strike, and so on. Radial Blind is way better than Petrify as well, working in 360 degrees all around the player, with much bigger range, and opening enemies up to the 8x stealth multiplier. Atlas is fun, and has some different mechanics with Rubble and Tectonics, but really he just feels like a worse version of Excalibur.

I'm also concerned that with the Melee 3.0 changes to the combo counter, that might further nerf Atlas and put him in an even worse position.

Edited July 1, 2018 by SteveCutler