Eirshy Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) On 2018-06-19 at 1:50 PM, taiiat said: [Math claim that Pact is a bad choice] Don't need to assume base damage, just operate in multipliers. Hornet gets you to a net 3.2x, Pact+Horn is 4.1x Base crit is a normalized 1.1x, with PTC/PPG it's 1.9184x Elemental base @ 2.5x (100% base physical, 90% ele1, 60% ele2) Pact has a free slot, defaulting it to a 90% elemental mod. result is: 4.1x * 3.4x * 1.1 = 15.334x for Pact 3.2x * 2.5x * 1.9184x = 15.347x normalized for Primed Crit Primed Crit wins by 0.013x (+0.08%) Switching to two 90% elemental mods base (base 2.8x), Primed Crit wins by 0.502x (+3.01%) (16.687x Pact, 17.189x Primed Crit) Switching to a PHC (165%) and a 90% (base 3.55x), Primed Crit wins by 1.7235x (+8.59%) (20.0695x Pact, 21.793x Primed Crit) Switching to two 60% elemental mods base (base 2.2x), Pact wins by 0.475x (+3.52%) (13.981x Pact, 13.506x Primed Crit) You are correct that it scales in favor of the crit mods for raw dam/hit with higher elemental amounts, but that's normalized, not minimum, and the difference is really not that large (under 10% in all cases) and even favors the Pact in a two-60/60 build. That gets even worse if you're going for vira/ specifically, as you're looking at a wild range of RNG-reliance. Even assuming you went for two ele/status mods to get your Viral, you're looking at a 33.85% chance per-bullet of a slash proc (12.7% of a viral) and a 28.7% chance of a crit, meaning a crit bleed is under 10%. Meanwhile a coro proc build using Augur Pact and a 90+90+60, you're still netting a 20% slash proc (90-60-60 gets a 28.85%), and all of them are benefiting from the Pact amp instead of having roll a second time to get the bonus. And on top of that, that armor you're using slash procs to get around is being stripped off at a rate of 15% (18.93%) coro procs, meaning you'll very rapidly out-pace your slash proc damage with just regular hits. You're also practically ignoring Heavy Gunner armor out the gate and getting a massive amp on heavy infested (like Healers). Something something 10x2 is garbage crit and should only be modded for if you're killing bosses that have no useful non-immune status procs. Something something backloaded damage is amazing on paper and trash in practice (even at ~33.6 bullets per second from a Blitzwing). Something something vira/ is a stupid meme. Edited June 21, 2018 by TheBlueJelly Standardized terminology, added more "tl;dr"s to the end, added a PHC build and note on closeness; added "winners" comparisons and reformatted to emphasize them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 7 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said: Hornet gets you to a net 3.2x, Pact+Horn is 4.1x Base crit is a normalized 1.1x, with PTC/PPG it's 1.9184x Elemental base @ 2.5x (100% base physical, 90% ele1, 60% ele2) Pact has a free slot, defaulting it to a 90% elemental mod. result is: 4.1x * 3.4x * 1.1 = 15.334x for Pact 3.2x * 2.5x * 1.9184x = 15.347x normalized for Primed Crit Primed Crit wins by 0.013x (+0.08%) You are correct that it scales in favor of the crit mods for raw dam/hit with higher elemental amounts, but that's normalized, not minimum, and the difference is really not that large (under 10% in all cases) and even favors the Pact in a two-60/60 build. Something something 10x2 is garbage crit and should only be modded for if you're killing bosses that have no useful non-immune status procs. Something something vira/ is a stupid meme. the problem is you're drawing the line as only extra Elementals + Auger Pact or Crits - when the practical answer would be extra Elementals + Crits? Crits still scale better than just raw Damage alone, you know that. an average increase is still an average increase, and it's more relevant the higher the Rate of Fire is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Crit Slash isn't just a joke, it's universally effective on anything that isn't immune to Status - Slash Status bypasses the Damage System. you deal high Damage to everything. it's only backloaded Damage on paper, nobody is actually waiting around for 8 seconds for Enemies to die - just pushing Slash Status to be as large as possible to the first 1-2 Ticks vaporizes Enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjKaplis Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 @[DE]Megan Just checked simulacrum and for some reason Wukong's Iron staff status chance still appears as 25% there instead of 10% what it shows when viewing it in orbiter. http://prntscr.com/k1l6q2 Also just letting you know - after testing different builds on the iron staff and Wukong the ability in general seems very underwhelming as it can reach max range of around 6m and although with specific setups it can go good damage I can easily get more range and about as good damage with some melee weapons while also having better combos on these and not being limited from using primaries or secondaries (if i use only quick attacks on melee) and not getting extra energy drain. Examples for melee weapons that currently feel comparable or better than Iron staff in terms of range, damage and combos - Galatine prime, Zaw staffs and Polearms, Tonbo, Atterax, Cassowar...and I would guess there are more. It just feels a bit like something is missing. Personally at least a bit more range and immunity to knockdowns like what I have when attacking with Galatine. Maybe it's just me. I like playing Wukong but I also do hope that with his rework his abilities get more use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeMonkey Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, DjKaplis said: Just checked simulacrum and for some reason Wukong's Iron staff status chance still appears as 25% there instead of 10% what it shows when viewing it in orbiter. Already reported it as a bug (in the correct bug report subforum ) 15 minutes ago, DjKaplis said: as it can reach max range of around 6m I wish. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/974481-wukong-primal-fury-no-good/?do=findComment&comment=9909119 You're looking at ~4m at max length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjKaplis Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 19 hours ago, DeMonkey said: Already reported it as a bug (in the correct bug report subforum ) I wish. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/974481-wukong-primal-fury-no-good/?do=findComment&comment=9909119 You're looking at ~4m at max length. Yea, this was just a follow up to the original post. Probably should be classified as a bug tho. And well the only thing that is good about the ability not benefiting from range mods as it didn't make a difference when putting these on...is the fact that I get extra mod slot. But Iron Staff currently feels quite underwhelming even tho it can do good damage. And have to occupy quite many mod slots on Wukong and melee weapon for gladiator mods. Currently it feels like the best build but limits my modding variety a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)ForNoPurpose Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 (edited) if only they increased the cap on bonus range %, or just put in a flat 10m range cap.... i say 10m because i can easily get that much from several zaws and staffs. its about the absolute limit i think any melee weapon should have... even if they have to reduce the damage or speed, i would love to see Iron staff have a reach to truely bring the feeling of that staff of legend which is said to be 20 feet long. even 6-8m would be good. as for Dex Pixia, i can speak as someone who has the old version, my stat stick for it is a Braton prime, which i will be keeping after the update arrives.. it has very close base stats in terms of status and crit and the Pixia crits about as often as that. Edited July 3, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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