Make PvP Great Again

[CpTKugelHagel]

8 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

Doing that in a public match is a bannable offense.

what? why is that bannable? also how do they find out anyways?

[Urlan]

6 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

Doing that in a public match is a bannable offense.

Yes, there are threads about the subject from a while back. Honestly, it was around that time I decided I wasn't going to bother with PvP; don't need to both get killed like crazy by players imitating bouncing bunnies with sniper rifles constantly speed jetting while doing perfect head-shots and then getting accused of feeding the pains in the recently head-shotted head. Besides, there is little reward for the time unless one gets the challenges which require you to either wait around for lucky enemies who don't know they are being victims for 'style kills' or whatever, get a group which can be accused of feeding as it has to be public, or chance being someone else's victim for style kill challenges. Its just not fun.

[Heckzu]

3 minutes ago, CpTKugelHagel said:

what? why is that bannable? also how do they find out anyways?

Same reason and way that AFK'ing in a mission can get you banned.

For Conclave rep farming, DE will send you a warning first, and only if you decide to ignore the warning will you actually get banned.

[ant99999]

Poor OP, he probably didn't know how much the PvE community hates Conclave. My advice is not to make threads like this in General Discussuion. There aren't any of the loyal Conclavers who could counter the flow of salt with logical arguments. Just go to Conclave Feedback and suggest it there for more adequate answers.

[CpTKugelHagel]

Just now, Heckzu said:

Same reason and way that AFK'ing in a mission can get you banned.

For Conclave rep farming, DE will send you a warning first, and only if you decide to ignore the warning will you actually get banned.

i ask again how will they find it out?

[Heckzu]

2 minutes ago, CpTKugelHagel said:

i ask again how will they find it out?

The same way they find out someone's intentionally leeching in matches: someone reports them for it.

[CpTKugelHagel]

Just now, Heckzu said:

The same way they find out someone's intentionally leeching in matches: someone reports them for it.

and how will someone report you if there is noone who plays conclave?

[Heckzu]

Just now, CpTKugelHagel said:

and how will someone report you if there is noone who plays conclave?

There are plenty of people who play Conclave, especially Annihilation. I almost always instantly join a filled Annihilation match during the day in N.A., and I've even found matches at 1:00AM EST.

[CpTKugelHagel]

Just now, Heckzu said:

There are plenty of people who play Conclave, especially Annihilation. I almost always instantly join a filled Annihilation match during the day in N.A., and I've even found matches at 1:00AM EST.

if you know how you wont have ppl in your group so noone can report you

[TARINunit9]

55 minutes ago, CutieBoi said:

What are your thoughts about PvP? 

I personally don't like it, but in a "it's just not for me" kind of way

What you have to remember is that Warframe has a reputation as a game for people who don't like PvP. And a LOT of fans take that as a mark of pride. They won't leave the discussion at "I prefer PvE", no they will outright attack PvP as some kind of blight against the game

[ShutUpJade]

Really, PVP has been somewhat of an afterthought, I don't recall it being in the game at all when I took a hiatus back about spring of 2015. When I came back I learned there was PVP in the form of the Conclave. It just doesn't have a real presence in this game because of the way everything else is played out. I've also come to the conclusion that most people that have an interest in Warframe and stick with it for so long are those that enjoy PVE Cooperative gameplay, not so much PVP Competitive. Those that enjoy PVP content don't stick with the game so long because it's more balanced around players being cooperative than competitive and DE has to really take PVP out of context of everything else to be able to balance it for a shot at being competitive. And then that gameplay isn't Warframe anymore.

I won't say it doesn't have a place, but it's place is really incongruous with the rest of the game and its mechanics.

[Triplinster]

20 hours ago, JDragonkin said:

I've also come to the conclusion that most people that have an interest in Warframe and stick with it for so long are those that enjoy PVE Cooperative gameplay, not so much PVP Competitive

Yea probably. However in my case I was hardcore into PVE, grinding over and over again and just slapping forma on weapons that felt good in use. It was like, I want to play this game but I can't play it more, like It was super repetitive with just 4 factions and same maps over and over again. That did change recently, more things for vets to do now.

But back then I had nothing to do, sort of like I finished the game but still wanted to play. Then I came across PVP 1.0, which was fun in its own way and fast paced/ninja like. Which is what I was looking for. Later it got scrapped for PVP 2.0, which I got into but a bit late.

When parkour 2.0 came out, Imo it was like the best update to the game since forever. But even that felt really unnecessary and underutilized in PVE. With all the powercreep you could just spam bullet jump and aim glide and be done with the content. But PVP 2.0 with parkour 2.0 on the other hand, that was something else, this game mode took parkour 2.0 to another level. With more space ninja feel to it, something I was looking for in PVE for so long.

To me it feels like, PVP might have been what PVE should have been, more fast paced and challenging, less powercreep and more punishing (forcing players to utilize parkour even more). But in the end PVE just became more and more casual while PVP became more and more competitive/fast paced. Just my thoughts on it.
 

21 hours ago, JDragonkin said:

Those that enjoy PVP content don't stick with the game so long because it's more balanced around players being cooperative than competitive

That is sort of true, right now most of the PVP players that stick around are those that play both PVE and PVP. Which is a minority. I saw many new players join Warframe for just PVP, but ended up leaving because of the PVE grind wall they had to face to unlock gear just to play PVP. So PVP right now is in a weird spot.

 

21 hours ago, JDragonkin said:

DE has to really take PVP out of context of everything else to be able to balance it for a shot at being competitive. And then that gameplay isn't Warframe anymore.

Until recently (Update 21.4) that wasn't completely true. Snipers were fairly well balanced and felt similar in PVE and PVP. But when DE started changing weapons in PVE, like buffing sniper rifles in fire rate and removing scope bonus, that really messed them up in PVP and broke most of the balance in them.

I still believe that weapons could be balanced in PVP while having similar feel in PVE and PVP. As nobody plays with stock stats in PVE anyway, so changing things like fire rate in PVP shouldn't affect them feel wise. As for abilities, I think DE did a really good job in shaping them for PVP while keeping them similar in feel to PVE, but most of them are just too OP, and are perfectly tweak-able without changing them too much, just playing with their stats.
 

21 hours ago, JDragonkin said:

I won't say it doesn't have a place, but it's place is really incongruous with the rest of the game and its mechanics

As I talked about it above, the way I see it, PVE changed more than PVP, both taking a different route after introduction of parkour 2.0. PVP stayed true to the space ninja/fast paced feel and utilized parkour even more, where as PVE became more casual with power creep. Just my thought, I may be wrong about PVE as I don't play it much anymore, just sorties and nitain alerts for plat and gear.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Warframe fell into the trap of providing what every other game provides for PVP...YET, It has a massive PVE player base and it won't experiment with alternate playlists that would be fun for PVE fence sitters, who might try weird playlists. Put a race in to escape a giant roller ball bearing down on the players like the Halo Forge days of Indiana Jones game types...the winner is the last man surviving, Bungie is trying out the side by side firefight between two teams...Nobody in the PVE Warframe community wants to play a game mode that strips away the power fantasy...and that's fine..PVP needs to get more imaginative if you want it to bloom.

Edited June 22, 2018 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Triplinster]

7 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Nobody in the PVE Warframe community wants to play a game mode that strips away the power fantasy...and that's fine..PVP needs to get more imaginative if you want it to bloom.

I mostly agree with you. 

Main PVP (keyword Main, not lunaro, or chess or whatever) at least doesn't need to be for PVE playerbase if you want it to "bloom". Main PVP with core mechanics and gun play will never be accepted by a player base who lack self-improvement capabilities and have extreme power fantasies. It's like trying to mix oil and water.

You can however make another PVP game mode for them that's simple. While designing a simple gamemode, you can use few unpredictability elements of a human opponent and design a game mode around it that's simple to understand and play. Add enough unique to warframe elements that make it separate from other games while keeping a low skill floor, and it'll succeed.

Anything more complicated than that and it'll flop assuming it's made for existing PVE playerbase.

[Sibernetika]

Pvp in warframe is like what it feels like for Jim the grineer when a sudden twinkle toes the feather footed ballerina zips through and his expected to land any shots whatsoever, basically like really godly players in UT2K3/2K4 where high mobility was a thing and they learned to chain bunny hoping, double jumping and wall jumping to such an extend it made using projectile weapons against them a waste of time.. Warframe is that but on steroids.. And that's where conclave has a problem.. PvE gives you a godly power trip and then you step into pvp, where you are suddenly Jim the grineer and that guy that has been playing conclave for a while now that has learned the moment you run you are dead, is in the same match as you, And he has learned the way of perma parkour mode.. Your power boss feeling is extinguished pretty much instantly, then you're back to the land of semi parkour and where the kraken is a joke.. 

TL:DR. conclave is too difficult and fast paced for the majority of the active player base. 

[Nighttide77]

3 hours ago, Sibernetika said:

Pvp in warframe is like what it feels like for Jim the grineer when a sudden twinkle toes the feather footed ballerina zips through and his expected to land any shots whatsoever, basically like really godly players in UT2K3/2K4 where high mobility was a thing and they learned to chain bunny hoping, double jumping and wall jumping to such an extend it made using projectile weapons against them a waste of time.. Warframe is that but on steroids.. And that's where conclave has a problem.. PvE gives you a godly power trip and then you step into pvp, where you are suddenly Jim the grineer and that guy that has been playing conclave for a while now that has learned the moment you run you are dead, is in the same match as you, And he has learned the way of perma parkour mode.. Your power boss feeling is extinguished pretty much instantly, then you're back to the land of semi parkour and where the kraken is a joke.. 

TL:DR. conclave is too difficult and fast paced for the majority of the active player base. 

That didn't need a TL;DR imo, heh.  It was spot on and I was entertained reading it.

A large part of the reason people enjoy Warframe's PvE is because they feel powerful.  Conclave is not that in any way, unless you train your brain excessively or have the capacity to perform at such high levels.

[Triplinster]

4 hours ago, Sibernetika said:

and then you step into pvp, where you are suddenly Jim the grineer and that guy that has been playing conclave for a while now that has learned the moment you run you are dead, is in the same match as you, And he has learned the way of perma parkour mode..

That's the skill gap issue.

After reaching a point where better skill gap separation is possible (enough players playing to be able to separate and not affect activity by alot), it is possible to retain more PVE focused players. Not the majority, but players with self improvement capabilities. Like around 8-13% of the player base. But never the majority or 100% of it.

[Sibernetika]

19 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

That's the skill gap issue.

After reaching a point where better skill gap separation is possible (enough players playing to be able to separate and not affect activity by alot), it is possible to retain more PVE focused players. Not the majority, but players with self improvement capabilities. Like around 8-13% of the player base. But never the majority or 100% of it.

If pvp was a bit more grounded then it would have had a bigger player base but right now in pvp it's about who hit 1st and who moved 1st.. On of my matches was me running away from someone for 5 minutes, and he couldn't kill me because of the movement in this game that is why UT3 and 4 is not like 2k3 and 2k4 because if you were mobile enough you could go through an entire match without dying once.. But this is warframe and because of it's movement style is the reason why conclave will never catch on

[----Legacy----]

8 hours ago, Sibernetika said:

If pvp was a bit more grounded then it would have had a bigger player base

If PvP was more grounded it wouldn't be warframe.

8 hours ago, Sibernetika said:

On of my matches was me running away from someone for 5 minutes, and he couldn't kill me because of the movement in this game

That's actually part of the skill gap; while that player was unable to kill you in 5 minutes, there are players like trip, toddworld, pytha, seiguro, sevenletterkword, X, Kingofgirth, amongst many other experienced players who would most likely have killed you en less than 5 seconds.

 

[Sibernetika]

6 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

If PvP was more grounded it wouldn't be warframe.

That's actually part of the skill gap; while that player was unable to kill you in 5 minutes, there are players like trip, toddworld, pytha, seiguro, sevenletterkword, X, Kingofgirth, amongst many other experienced players who would most likely have killed you en less than 5 seconds.

 

No his score was pretty high and I thank you for saying my skills are high, since well my skills aren't I'm mediocre at best.. The guy that was chasing me how ever didn't come with a cheese build.. Like a Loki with an ignis, an excal with blind and castans, frost and globe, it wasn't bullet jumping corinth or a full damage jaw.. He was an umbra with sibaris.. As long as I could time my movement with his shots I could dodge his attacks..there is just too much cheese going on in pvp that requires no skill

 

Also I said a bit more grounded.. A bit I didn't say nail it to the ground I said stop turning the dail to 11.. Bring it down to 8 or 7 and there would be more of a community interest 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Sibernetika

[Triplinster]

17 hours ago, Sibernetika said:

But this is warframe and because of it's movement style is the reason why conclave will never catch on

There are players with .8 mobility who move just as fast or faster than players with 1.0 mobility. Like wise with 1.0 mobility and 1.1. 

There are players (majority) who don't move around at all. They walk or just use bullet jump, even rare, bullet jump and aimglide. At this point, we would be trying to make the game easier for players who don't or just barely utilize core mechanics of the game. By the way PVP mobility is already lower than PVE I believe.

But there is a better solution in my opinion. I say instead of nerfing mobility, after we get a good number of active players (which would happen after improving conclave in other ways), we work on and introduce a better skill gap separation system. 

This way players will play against similarly skilled players, and since they will be less frustrated and start enjoying more, their play time/activity will increase. As they get addicted, and become more active, naturally over time they will develop better parkour movement/combos and get deeper and deeper in the game and rank up to higher levels in skill rating. Skill gap separation deserves it's own topic for discussion.

Now even if you could reduce the mobility equally (without skill gap separation), the skill gap would remain. The players who were barely using the basic movement would move slower and in return have less chances against other skilled players.

And about your example with Sybaris, that's not a hard to use weapon against an average player. It's quite strong, he could have gotten easy kills on average players. It's not surprising to know that some movement threw him off in your case.

[Sibernetika]

1 hour ago, Triplinster said:

And about your example with Sybaris, that's not a hard to use weapon against an average player. It's quite strong, he could have gotten easy kills on average players. It's not surprising to know that some movement threw him off in your case.

Right now mobility is part of what makes the conclave the amount of cheese that it is.. 

I never said it was hard to use, what I was pointing out it wasn't a cheese build like a blind you with bright bloom ignis, or blind you with dark smoke ignis.. It wasn't a radial blind or melee slow followed up by insta castana death build.. It was a build that gave both parties equal fighting chance, and I had my best time when I was in matches with him.. It wasn't a cheese fest and that was what made it fun.. I actually think conclave is a step forward 2 steps back from what dark sectors was.. Yes dark sectors was basically instagib mode whoever shot 1st was the winner but there you could actually face your opponent, now well its whoever speads the most cheese wins

[Triplinster]

33 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

I never said it was hard to use,

Now you're confusing yourself and me

33 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

Right now mobility is part of what makes the conclave the amount of cheese that it is.. 

Mobility isn't cheese. People just haven't understood how to counter it. 1.2 mobility is basically 2 Lex body for most frames. Or two sniper shots. 1.1 Maybe on a tougher end, but easier to deal with other low hits to kill weapons. As in most cases you need 1 or 2 less bullets to kill that 1.1 mobility frame than 1.0 or below.

Normally higher mobility players are easier to deal with because of lower EHP, but on top of that if you manage to adapt with lower hits to kill weapons, higher mobility players will get punished harder.

[Sibernetika]

I'm not confusing myself you're confusing yourself.. Sybaris is one of the most balanced weapons in pvp, but it's an honest weapon not an unfair weapon..

Dude no matter how hard you're going to try and defend that high mobility makes you weak to bullets so its balanced, there is still plenty of weapons that can 1 and 2 shot some tanky frames except for iron skin rhino, frost, and umbra.. Fast mobility is so you don't get hit, and the weapons that will 1 shot with your lower health for more speed mod would have 1 shot you regardless if you're using that mod or not 

[Triplinster]

20 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

Fast mobility is so you don't get hit, and the weapons that will 1 shot with your lower health for more speed mod would have 1 shot you regardless if you're using that mod or not 

You may use snipetron to two shot a tank or a high mobility player (which is an unbalanced weapon). But why a low mag and low reload speed weapon?

You could use 2 lex body shots on 1.2s which is easier because of accurate hipfire shots, you could use 2 body snipetron vandal which is more forgiving (high mag low reload) on some 1.1s, mk1 strun or strun at a farther range than you would against a tank, 7 bullets instead of 9(on normal ehp) with few rifles, (puts them in 0.6-0.7 or less ttk range which is really fast time to kill) a fully charged opticor shot, or 2 ferrox shots, and the list goes on.

I didn't say only lower HTK weapons are effective. But that they're a good counter, normal weapons will kill those players faster too obviously.  Lower HTK weapons are a better counter to high mobility players because you don't require as much consistency as with higher HTK weapons. Against low mobility players it doesn't matter low htk or higher htk (more about time to kill) because it's easy to be consistent in landing shots on them.

The problem then becomes experience/skill gap. As the player losing to higher mobility player is consistently losing as he fails to adapt and improve and use counter weapons.
 

36 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

Fast mobility is so you don't get hit, and the weapons that will 1 shot with your lower health for more speed mod would have 1 shot you regardless if you're using that mod or not 

Also, there is no weapon at stock (in case of daikyu take SLB only) that can always one shot. Even SLB daikyu.