Limbo QoL changes, mainly for allies.

[lukinu_u]

So first, let's talk about Limbo's main problem.
Limbo has a great kit than can be really good if used correctly but using it wrong can harm the team as almost all of his power have drawback applying to all the team.

• Banish : Provide energy regen but let you hit only enemies inside the rift with your weapons while you have this energy regen and if you go out of the rift (by rolling), you can't get back in to hit enemies that are in the rift.
• Stasis : no longer stop projectiles, status effect and abilities spreading like Saryn's spores (thanks god) but still completely stop enemies, meaning in some situations when you want enemies to come fast, it can harm.
• Rift surge : just passive so nothing to says about it.
• Cataclysm : that's definitetly the worst because as the inside this rift and the outside is not, this prevent from shooting inside when you're outside and vice versa. Pretty much like a Frost bubble but on both side.

So, considering this, I have some idea that would make Limbo more enjoyable for everyone by reducing these drawback, especially for the teammates.

Passive : Instead of switching dimension on roll, you now need to maintain the button for the whole roll duration. This is mainly a QoL of like for people that often use roll to move and don't want to switch dimension every 10 seconds. As you would only change dimension at the end of the roll instead of the beginning like now Limbo would also get invulnerability frame during rolling the keep its ability to switch dimension to avoid a shot.

Banish : Additionnaly to change the target dimension on cast, Banish now give Limbo's passive to players hit for the set duration. This is to give more choice to other players than waiting for Limbo to change their dimension or the target dimension. Currently, other players can get out of the rift by rolling to kill an enemy that isn't in the rift, but the opposite isn't possible.

Stasis : The recent changes were great, so even if stoping enemies can be bad in some situation, it can be good and some case and don't really need more changes.

Rift surge : It's fine like that.

Cataclysm : My proposition here is to seperate the Cataclysm in two layers :

• The first layer inside would be how the current Cataclysm work, putting everything inside in the rift and cover about 70% of the current radius.
• The second layer ouside that cover the 30% remaining of the radius would consider you both inside and outside of the rift, allowing you to interact with enemies both inside and outside the rift (damaging them, but also getting damaged). 

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Edited June 20, 2018 by (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson

[More-L]

I definitely think that 'banish' change could be really good, but they would need to make a back roll completely opt out of it if a standard/side roll just swaps planes for the duration.

[paul5473]

30 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

• The second layer ouside that cover the 30% remaining of the radius would consider you both inside and outside of the rift, allowing you to interact with enemies both inside and outside the rift (damaging them, but also getting damaged). 

What?

[PsiWarp]

Nice ideas, I particularly like Banish and Cataclysm ones. The Rift Walk held dodge change is nice QoL, but I wonder if it will work for those of us that bind it to click to roll, hold to sprint?

In order to fully prevent the Rift divide from nullifying player weapon attacks, necessitating ability damage that on some frames are perfectly viable killing methods while on other frames are extremely unfavorable damage sources (some like Harrow don't even deal ability damage at all), I think all Rift-bound enemies should double as portals or tie another Rift access method to Limbo's Affinity Range.

Aside from Cataclysm providing a doorway to the Rift by simply existing, Limbo's portal and Banish both require action on his part to bring allies into the Rift. If he doesn't invite them in, they'll be stranded and restricted to abilities trying to kill Rift-bound enemies and vice versa; there is no way around that for his teammates unless they too are using Limbo. It's clunky, inconvenient, and slows down the combat, at times drastically dragging on missions, intentionally or not.

Since Limbo can Rift in enemies en-masse nowadays, this core issue is even more apparent when Banish and Rift Surge are used.

Another idea that I like and want to at least try is dodge roll inside Cataclysm lets players toggle planes. Then you can switch planes at anytine without having to cross the bubble borders and use weapons on all enemies Rift or not. Balanced by the fact that you would be exposed to damage from your current plane.

As for Cataclysm, the idea of "zones" inside the bubble is a neat concept that could work in practice. IMO, we could go a step further by having a static sized core that uses Cataclysm's final radius, which is the part that Nullifiers must touch to dispel the entire bubble, instead of popping the ability instantly if you're using high Ability Range on Corpus and Void maps.

[mactrent]

On 2018-06-20 at 3:20 AM, paul5473 said:

What?

Not sure if trolling, but here's the gist:
He's proposing there should be some way that Limbo's teammates can go stand somewhere and be pretty sure they can actually shoot any enemy they see.  That's an improvement, where Limbo's allies are concerned.  With a few small exceptions (e.g., one of Mag's bubbles, or Nyx directly in your path), this is the way things work when you're allied with any other frame, so Limbo is the outlier here.

I don't think it should be tied to Cataclysm, which Limbo doesn't have to cast/keep, but I do think Limbo's teammates need something along those lines.  If they could be guaranteed a portal whenever they want one as @PsiWarp suggests, or just outright be able to shoot enemies that are in the Rift while they themselves are not, it'd be possible to mitigate the bad (or trolling, but usually just bad) Limbos out there.

[tychondus]

On 20 June 2018 at 5:49 PM, lukinu_u said:

So first, let's talk about Limbo's main problem.
Limbo has a great kit than can be really good if used correctly but using it wrong can harm the team as almost all of his power have drawback applying to all the team.

• Banish : Provide energy regen but let you hit only enemies inside the rift with your weapons while you have this energy regen and if you go out of the rift (by rolling), you can't get back in to hit enemies that are in the rift.
• Stasis : no longer stop projectiles, status effect and abilities spreading like Saryn's spores (thanks god) but still completely stop enemies, meaning in some situations when you want enemies to come fast, it can harm.
• Rift surge : just passive so nothing to says about it.
• Cataclysm : that's definitetly the worst because as the inside this rift and the outside is not, this prevent from shooting inside when you're outside and vice versa. Pretty much like a Frost bubble but on both side.

So, considering this, I have some idea that would make Limbo more enjoyable for everyone by reducing these drawback, especially for the teammates.

Passive : Instead of switching dimension on roll, you now need to maintain the button for the whole roll duration. This is mainly a QoL of like for people that often use roll to move and don't want to switch dimension every 10 seconds. As you would only change dimension at the end of the roll instead of the beginning like now Limbo would also get invulnerability frame during rolling the keep its ability to switch dimension to avoid a shot.

Banish : Additionnaly to change the target dimension on cast, Banish now give Limbo's passive to players hit for the set duration. This is to give more choice to other players than waiting for Limbo to change their dimension or the target dimension. Currently, other players can get out of the rift by rolling to kill an enemy that isn't in the rift, but the opposite isn't possible.

Stasis : The recent changes were great, so even if stoping enemies can be bad in some situation, it can be good and some case and don't really need more changes.

Rift surge : It's fine like that.

Cataclysm : My proposition here is to seperate the Cataclysm in two layers :

• The first layer inside would be how the current Cataclysm work, putting everything inside in the rift and cover about 70% of the current radius.
• The second layer ouside that cover the 30% remaining of the radius would consider you both inside and outside of the rift, allowing you to interact with enemies both inside and outside the rift (damaging them, but also getting damaged). 

This sounds more like a candidate for augment rework rather than frame rework. Fortunately there are 2 least used augments in limbo line-up (banish and cataclysm) that could do with an update.

Edited June 26, 2018 by tychondus

[Almagnus1]

How about a simpler one?

DELETE LIMBO!

[mactrent]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

How about a simpler one?

DELETE LIMBO!

Or, you know, make it so his friends can shoot things that are in the Rift, so all he is to non-Rifted teammates is really good CC.  If they want to opt in to play by Rift rules, that should just offer additional benefits like energy, damage buffs (Rift Torrent shareable at least?), and protection.

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

On 2018-06-20 at 3:49 AM, lukinu_u said:

Banish : Additionnaly to change the target dimension on cast, Banish now give Limbo's passive to players hit for the set duration. This is to give more choice to other players than waiting for Limbo to change their dimension or the target dimension. Currently, other players can get out of the rift by rolling to kill an enemy that isn't in the rift, but the opposite isn't possible.

1 hour ago, tychondus said:

This sounds more like a candidate for augment rework rather than frame rework. Fortunately there are 2 least used augments in limbo line-up (banish and cataclysm) that could do with an update.

 

Why don't we just combine this great idea with the eventual coming of a change to the augment.

It's simple, elegant, and would fix most of the frustration in Limbo's kit (for the player who has to try and not hinder team mates and for the team mates that get hindered).

Let's take it one step further though...

 

Banish Augment: When a team mate is banished they permanently inherit Limbo's passive.

 

That seems pretty simple to me. Useful enough to justify its spot. Helps your team more than yourself.

Edited June 26, 2018 by (XB1)INe Saninus
Clarification of thought

[mactrent]

Just now, (XB1)INe Saninus said:

Banish Augment: When a team mate is banished they permanently inherit Limbo's passive.

 

That seems pretty simple to me. Useful enough to justify its spot. Helps your team more than yourself.

If it helps his team more than himself, that's yet another example of Limbo needing to gimp his kit to allow his teammates to fully play with their own frames or weapons.  Even if he gives up the slot, he's still also got to actively seek them out and keep track of which he's given this buff to.  Even if I and other "high-effort" Limbo players bother to do this, the fact that it's only an option (and not the most fun experience for Limbo, at that) means not everyone will do so.  It's got to be built in to the Rift or another ability, and not require Limbo's allowance of his teammates to use their gear.

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

7 minutes ago, mactrent said:

If it helps his team more than himself, that's yet another example of Limbo needing to gimp his kit to allow his teammates to fully play with their own frames or weapons.  Even if he gives up the slot, he's still also got to actively seek them out and keep track of which he's given this buff to.  Even if I and other "high-effort" Limbo players bother to do this, the fact that it's only an option (and not the most fun experience for Limbo, at that) means not everyone will do so.  It's got to be built in to the Rift or another ability, and not require Limbo's allowance of his teammates to use their gear.

I support that idea.

It could be as easy as once a team mate crosses over to the rift using the rift that Limbo leaves, they permanently inherit the passive.

I just don't see it happening...

...but DE loves to put basic functionality into an augment.

Seems much more likely to me.

Either I find acceptable.

[Inanegrain62]

That's odd, I don't recall limbo affecting enemies being spore'd by Saryn.

At best, if the enemy isn't dying from saryn, but still proc'd, saryn can simply bullet jump on said enemy to keep spreading it.

But, I'm quite certain that Stasis did not block abilities damaging, such as saryn.

 

Cataclysm's a bit iffy to touch, I'm assuming that the 30% dmg reduction is what I see as a dmg reduction to all that isn't obeying the rift.

Though, I mostly have an issue with the rift not interacting with enemies properly.

Spoiler

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/973947-limbos-banish-and-enemies/?tab=comments#comment-9906998

 

 

11 hours ago, (XB1)INe Saninus said:

Banish Augment: When a team mate is banished they permanently inherit Limbo's passive.

 

That seems pretty simple to me. Useful enough to justify its spot. Helps your team more than yourself.

This, I like, but I don't like it being an augment mod as augment mods are more of a band aid. This still prevents players under "normal" circumstances if said limbo doesn't own that augment. Instead of it being permanent, have it be linked to duration else that seems a bit too strong in a way.

[mactrent]

6 hours ago, Inanegrain62 said:

That's odd, I don't recall limbo affecting enemies being spore'd by Saryn.

At best, if the enemy isn't dying from saryn, but still proc'd, saryn can simply bullet jump on said enemy to keep spreading it.

But, I'm quite certain that Stasis did not block abilities damaging, such as saryn.

It doesn't stop the ability doing its normal damage, but when you need to hit your enemy with a weapon to keep it going, you run into a problem not with Stasis, but with the Rift itself.  You have to have some way to be in the same plane as your enemy, or your weapons won't work.  This is just like Harrow - his powers work across the Rift, they just don't do much unless you can use your weapons.  And no, last I checked, bullet-jumping doesn't damage across dimensions either, you're SoL.

6 hours ago, Inanegrain62 said:

This, I like, but I don't like it being an augment mod as augment mods are more of a band aid. This still prevents players under "normal" circumstances if said limbo doesn't own that augment. Instead of it being permanent, have it be linked to duration else that seems a bit too strong in a way.

Agreed it's a band-aid, and I'd say even making it part of the ability that must be actively used is also a poor band-aid - still prevents players under "normal circumstances" if Limbo doesn't go out of his way to make use of the augment/power.  "a bit too strong" is the same argument as freezing allied weapons in Stasis, and it should be one that's designed around.  If making it so other players can have a fraction of their usual fun game experience even though there happens to be a Limbo squadded up with them is "too strong", Limbo needs some serious changes, and I won't cry foul over "nerfs" that actually serve this purpose.

Edited June 27, 2018 by mactrent