Ideas for "Dmg 2.5" // IPS rework

[FritzFaultier]

Hello tenno, 

As we know weapons IPS is in a really bad state right now, only slash is viable cause it's the only one that increases dmg, and against all factions! So how can we address this? Without nerfing slash ofc...

Well, here are the changes I suggest, obviously they would need a lot of testing, but they are some ideas:

Slash — Stay as is, that was easy.

Impact — The force of the impact causes a shock wave dealing damage in an area and has a chance of instantly popping nullifier bubbles.

• Impact proc dmg will be proportional to the dmg of the weapon (range of the shock waves unaffected by dmg, or the amount of impact stat, because we wouldn't want weapons with high rates of fire and low dmg to have 5cm shock waves and snipers with 20m shock waves).
• The chance of popping a nullifier bubble is determined by the weapon's dmg (snipers will be able to 1 shot bubbles and fast firing weapons can also destroy them fast! If the dmg didn't affect the probability of instantly popping the bubble then slow firing high dmg weapons would be extremely bad at dealing with them nullies like they currently are).
• Dmg of the shock wave will obviously increase with the weapon's dmg.
• On melee's the shock waves are bigger, and on ground slam's do even bigger shock waves which instantly knockdown all nearby enemies (range of the ground slam shock wave affected by weapons range and type (hammers would have a bigger shock wave by default for example)).

Puncture — Innate punch through, through enemies and walls (any obstacle) and a chance of completely ignoring armor and hit health directly

• The probability of the proc bypassing armor will always be the same, regardless of the weapon's dmg or IPS distribution towards puncture
• Punch through will be determined by the weapon's dmg, the higher the dmg, the higher the punch through, a dmg reduction while shooting through walls might be needed so people wouldn't abuse this.
• On melee's the chance to bypass armor would be greater. And no, no melee through walls ahahahahahaa.

But why would the proc be affected by the weapon's base dmg and not the amount of, lets say impact, it has?

Well firstly I don't want weapons that have even IPS to be somewhat inconsistent due to having an even IPS (For example; a weapon with 100 puncture 100 slash 100 impact, would mean that an impact/slash proc would have 1/3 of the weapons base damage, which would be very bad, so, the proc is based on the weapon's base dmg.)

Secondly, weapons with pure puncture for example, would have like almost infinite punch through cause it's dmg is 100% puncture.

It's easier if the dmg or effect of a proc be determined by the weapon's dmg, and the chances of which type of physical status occur being determined by the IPS.

All of this while still maintaining the resistances the enemies have, soooooo impact would be extremely good against corpus, but not so good against infested for example (since impact does less dmg against flesh) puncture would be really good against armored targets (literally all grineer) while still having some use against other types such as corpus with the punch through. And Slash would still be really good against fleshy targets, and it would start to be a decent (down from godly since impact and puncture are useless right now) against other types (even tho it still bypasses armor and shields) because there would be other stronger candidates to deal with each enemy type and/or resistance.

Leave some feedback and tell me what you think 😄

[MagentTanau]

I like your ideas for Puncture and they're automatically what my 'common sense' says should happen if a weapon is favored for that kind of damage.

Not sure about the 'shock wave' idea of Impact though... I'd rather that when Impact procs that it should cause a standing dazed 'stun' effect. This would make Impact proc enemies sitting ducks for headshots and would the go to proc for anyone who wants dem headshots (Harrows, Ivara's etc)  I like the thought of popping nullifier bubbles with a high dmg impact weapon though.

  

[BiancaRoughfin]

5 minutes ago, FritzFaultier said:

Impact — The force of the impact causes a shock wave dealing damage in an area and has a chance of instantly popping nullifier bubbles.

• Impact proc dmg will be proportional to the dmg of the weapon (range of the shock waves unaffected by dmg, or the amount of impact stat, because we wouldn't want weapons with high rates of fire and low dmg to have 5cm shock waves and snipers with 20m shock waves).
• The chance of popping a nullifier bubble is determined by the weapon's dmg (snipers will be able to 1 shot bubbles and fast firing weapons can also destroy them fast! If the dmg didn't affect the probability of instantly popping the bubble then slow firing high dmg weapons would be extremely bad at dealing with them nullies like they currently are).
• Dmg of the shock wave will obviously increase with the weapon's dmg.
• On melee's the shock waves are bigger, and on ground slam's do even bigger shock waves which instantly knockdown all nearby enemies (range of the ground slam shock wave affected by weapons range and type (hammers would have a bigger shock wave by default for example)).

Instead of the Shockwave i would rather have Impact get a chance to temporarily jam enemy weapons. Keep the Nullifier popping effect.

14 minutes ago, FritzFaultier said:

Puncture — Innate punch through, through enemies and walls (any obstacle) and a chance of completely ignoring armor and hit health directly

• The probability of the proc bypassing armor will always be the same, regardless of the weapon's dmg or IPS distribution towards puncture
• Punch through will be determined by the weapon's dmg, the higher the dmg, the higher the punch through, a dmg reduction while shooting through walls might be needed so people wouldn't abuse this.
• On melee's the chance to bypass armor would be greater. And no, no melee through walls ahahahahahaa.

Armor Bypassing might be something good but i think it would be more interesting if instead it caused weakspots like those from Banshee`s Radar to show up on the mob.

PunchThrough wouldnt be interesting as players who value PunchThrough already build them with mods for it. Having Puncture based weapons have inite PunchThrough would remove the need for using the mods and preparing a build appropriate for it.

[FritzFaultier]

2 hours ago, MagentTanau said:

I like your ideas for Puncture and they're automatically what my 'common sense' says should happen if a weapon is favored for that kind of damage.

Not sure about the 'shock wave' idea of Impact though... I'd rather that when Impact procs that it should cause a standing dazed 'stun' effect. This would make Impact proc enemies sitting ducks for headshots and would the go to proc for anyone who wants dem headshots (Harrows, Ivara's etc)  I like the thought of popping nullifier bubbles with a high dmg impact weapon though.

  

Well yeah it could do that, but the thing is, slash is better than all cause it gives you more dmg, so unless you also give more dmg to te other physical procs, i don't see the slash meta going away 😕

[FritzFaultier]

2 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Instead of the Shockwave i would rather have Impact get a chance to temporarily jam enemy weapons.

Yes that could work aswell, like a mini loki disarm xD, but when i gave this abilities where to be on par with the slash damage potential, if the other procs dont do more damage then you'll in the end, still use slash, see what I'm saying? My goal was for all physical procs to increase your damage in some way or another.

2 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Armor Bypassing might be something good but i think it would be more interesting if instead it caused weakspots like those from Banshee`s Radar to show up on the mob.

PunchThrough wouldnt be interesting as players who value PunchThrough already build them with mods for it. Having Puncture based weapons have inite PunchThrough would remove the need for using the mods and preparing a build appropriate for it.

Well yeah that's another idea, but i feel like the armor bypass would be more.... realistic i'd say? i dont like to use this word in warframe but it seems pretty straight forward that puncture actually punctures armor and ignores it. Tho increasing dmg through weakspots could also work, thing is how would that work on melee wepons?

And about the PunchThrough mods, i never really liked that something like that you need a mod for that, depending on the bullet/weapon type and the enemy you're facing your bullets should have some punch through. And if this were to be made, well, you can replace your punch through mod with something else 😄 

[peterc3]

4 hours ago, FritzFaultier said:

Slash — Stay as is, that was easy.

This idea is DOA. This isn't easy and to think it is is to minimize the mountain of work that needs to go into it.

[FritzFaultier]

44 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

This idea is DOA. This isn't easy and to think it is is to minimize the mountain of work that needs to go into it.

It's easy in the aspec that it shouldn't be touched, hence no work needed, now with the other physical status... that's alot of work

[Ohmlink]

I don't think DE wants to have something with complete armor ignore again, but maybe partial ignore may be a compromise.

On a puncture proc the bullet or blades damage ignores a portion of the damage resistance that armor provides, say 25 percent. I think that would make puncture weapons much more viable vs armor.

[FritzFaultier]

1 hour ago, Ohmlink said:

I don't think DE wants to have something with complete armor ignore again, but maybe partial ignore may be a compromise.

On a puncture proc the bullet or blades damage ignores a portion of the damage resistance that armor provides, say 25 percent. I think that would make puncture weapons much more viable vs armor.

But would that be enough to compete with the stackable slash DoT? My intentions were to make puncture procs better at dealing with armor than slash, slash was suposed to be very weak against armor, but it's the best.

And ignoring 25% armor of a... lets say lvl 300 heavy gunner is like ignoring 25% out of probably millions of armor, You're dmg would still be low, and slash would take the upper hand again because it can bypass all of that armor.

[Ohmlink]

4 hours ago, FritzFaultier said:

But would that be enough to compete with the stackable slash DoT? My intentions were to make puncture procs better at dealing with armor than slash, slash was suposed to be very weak against armor, but it's the best.

And ignoring 25% armor of a... lets say lvl 300 heavy gunner is like ignoring 25% out of probably millions of armor, You're dmg would still be low, and slash would take the upper hand again because it can bypass all of that armor.

Very true, and looking at the wiki I see bleed deals alot more than I thought so a "true" damage to take affect on a proc would actually be not nearly as crazy as I thought.

So on puncture proc bullet ignores armor. It would make punture's damage more front loaded vs bleeds dot.

[xexohunter]

Well I like those ideas, but I think we could get it a bit more simple. With impact, there could be more instances for the procs, maybe stagger for the first proc, disarm for the second proc and opening up for a finisher with a third proc (these additional procs would need to set up in a small timeframe like 3 sec.). Might be interesting for impact based melee weapons too. For puncture I would agree that an armor ignore gets the theme of puncture best. Maybe give it multiple instances too, so that further puncture dmg after a proc ignores armor by 50%, next proc 75% and after the third proc 100%. This would only count for the puncture dmg of a weapon and wouldn't get in the way of corrosive. Slash could stay, it is strong enough right now. These are my ideas, what do you think?

[Teridax68]

I really like the idea behind Puncture, as it would not only be much more intuitive than the current debuff (why does it reduce damage to begin with?), but also make the damage type and effect much more desirable, while allowing it to scale (weapon damage could influence punch-through range, for example). This could also allow punch-through as a stat to be rolled into Puncture, and I think it's always a good thing to simplify things while keeping at least an equal amount of valid choices.

I am, however, less sold on the Impact change. I don't think we need another way of popping Nullifier bubbles when they already have a drone that can be targeted for that same purpose, so if the problem is with Nullifiers, the solution should be to change Nullifiers. Creating splash damage could be interesting, but I think will also continue to make Impact and Blast tread on each others' toes.

Personally, I'm inclined to just get rid of the IPS split, and perhaps damage types altogether. They don't make a truly visceral contribution to gameplay, and the few interesting mechanics that they do introduce would be better used on specific mods and weapons. The whole system also creates these self-contained design issues where each effect needs to be distinct, have some usefulness, etc., while fitting a mold of an arbitrary number of damage types that itself needs to be made applicable to every weapon. It's a whole layer of complication that, imo, doesn't need to exist, as its contribution to gameplay isn't all that amazing.

[Arcira]

I think the main problem and the reason why slash is superior to impact and puncture is the armor damage reduction. Instead of changing too much about damage types I´d suggest that any kind of damage is cappable of reducing the armor damage reduction. This would remove alot of imbalance between damage types in higher levels.

Both shields and armor should start with 90% damage mitigation but this value will be lowered depending on damage taken and damage type used. In addition status effects shouldn´t be chance based anymore. Instead they always apply procs depending on the base value of the damage type. Status mods would increase the general strenght while mods like Metal Auger only buff specific types like puncture in this case.

Some small adjustments to mods and status effects:

- all procs will be applied (not a random one) but only scale with the corresponding damage source (not the cumulative value). This will make mods that increase specific damage types more valueable. Elemental mods will increase the damage by a median value of cumulative damage / amount of damage sources (for example 100% increased fire damage: 100 slash + 40 impact + 50 puncture = 200/3 = 66.66)

- Slash: always applies bleed debuff but only when hp damage is taken (see example for more information)

- Impact: weak hits staggers enemies while stronger ones apply the knockback (will damage and knock back enemies behind)

- Puncture: the punch trough effect you have mentioned and % armor/ shield penetration (damage and procs will ignore a % of the targets mitigation value)

* armor/shield mitigation naturally affects proc strenght as well

Here is an example to clarify how this would work (caution math ahead!):

Spoiler

A target with 1000 alloy armor and 1000 hp gets hit with 100 slash damage. Slash multiplicator against flesh is 1.25 and 0.5 against alloy armor. At maximum armor value the damage reduction will be 90% so you will deal 45 (90*0.5)armor and 12.5 (10*1.25) health damage (ignoring bleed for this example. It would be a % of the 12.5 health damage dealt).

The target now has 955 armor (=85,95% damage reduction) and 988.5 hp. Next hit would deal 42.975(85.95*0.5) armor and 14.05 hp damage leaving the target with:

~ 912 armor and ~975 hp ...

Because of the high damage multipier corrosive will be the best damage against heavy armored targets but other damage types are now capable of removing armor (and shields) as well which reduces the dps gap drastically.

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Arcira