Saryn's Spores

[taiiat]

21 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Range gave Miasma more coverage and ensured that everything on the map had its HP halved. Seemed like an easy choice for me but maybe some builds like melee builds or facetanking builds had less use for it. But when it came to squeezing the most out of powers, range was pretty damn good.

 

The Lanka build was pretty niche, all said, and wasn't well-understood until more recently.
And even then you wanted high range to make those Lanka headshots count, otherwise you were only making a small AOE somewhat bigger.

There was a lot of anti-synergy in Saryn's kit: Molt popping or bullet jumping with Toxic Lash could spread some weak Toxin procs

that would be currently, and yes, Range is a mandatory Stat now. though i'm kinda confused with speaking about Saryn in the past tense but talking about Saryn 2018 rather than Saryn 2015.

Guns could sorta force things before, yes. though, spreading Gas with a Sniper Rifle previous was... well, let's just say that Spores wasn't really doing much there since Toxin Status could only be transferred if it was on the Enemy before the Spore Burst, and shooting a Spore with the Sniper Rifle would get those in the wrong order. elsewise, you'd be relying one oneshotting the Host Enemy, which obviously has Level limitations.
Melee was the more practical golden key, between Blood Rush and Condition Overload, Toxic Lash made for a nice 'infinitely scaling' keystone as a catalyst for Spores. which like oneshotting with a Sniper Rifle... there's serious Level limitations to a single Spore Burst wiping the general area, so once you've passed that point super high Range just prevented you from applying the Damage.

[RealPandemonium]

31 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that would be currently, and yes, Range is a mandatory Stat now. though i'm kinda confused with speaking about Saryn in the past tense but talking about Saryn 2018 rather than Saryn 2015.

Guns could sorta force things before, yes. though, spreading Gas with a Sniper Rifle previous was... well, let's just say that Spores wasn't really doing much there since Toxin Status could only be transferred if it was on the Enemy before the Spore Burst, and shooting a Spore with the Sniper Rifle would get those in the wrong order. elsewise, you'd be relying one oneshotting the Host Enemy, which obviously has Level limitations.
Melee was the more practical golden key, between Blood Rush and Condition Overload, Toxic Lash made for a nice 'infinitely scaling' keystone as a catalyst for Spores. which like oneshotting with a Sniper Rifle... there's serious Level limitations to a single Spore Burst wiping the general area, so once you've passed that point super high Range just prevented you from applying the Damage.

You would shoot the guy next to the spore to ensure spread, and you could apply the damage every 8 seconds, but that's besides the point.

Rest of your post was pretty uncomfortable to read.  Those acolyte mods were and are a mistake.  

[(PSN)Radehx]

If enemies are dying too quickly to spores, you are applying them to enemies that really don't need the damage/debuff of spores. Spreading and building the decay counter back up is no problem at all at higher levels. In short, stop wasting energy by applying spores to enemies that are already so weak, they die to a sneeze 😉

I hardly ever recast spores at higher levels...

Complaining about this is a bit like complaining that enemies die too quickly if you stack 10 Banshee sonars onto lvl35s. It's overkill and unnecessary...but also the very thing allowing those frames to scale into more challenging (and fun) content.

Edited June 22, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[SyBuhr]

14 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

 

Range gave Miasma more coverage and ensured that everything on the map had its HP halved.  Seemed like an easy choice for me but maybe some builds like melee builds or facetanking builds had less use for it.  But when it came to squeezing the most out of powers, range was pretty damn good. 

The Lanka build was pretty niche, all said, and wasn't well-understood until more recently.  There was a lot of anti-synergy in Saryn's kit in this regard since stuff like Molt popping or bullet jumping while under the effect of Toxic Lash could spread some weak Toxin procs and make you unable to spread your big, weapon-based procs instead.  And even then you wanted high range to make those Lanka headshots count, otherwise you were only making a small AOE somewhat bigger.  

Miasma back then was corrosive, not viral; You'd have enemies halved with viral spores back then. But now, you are correct, since the elements got swapped.

Now, range is a must for: Viral Debuffing via Miasma, Spore spreading via Miasma and Spores that burst through hits, and aggro range on Molt. Lanka build was fairly common and well understood, just never publicly mentioned due to fears that it might get nerfed, which it essentially has, though the paradigm has shifted now more towards the ignis or Amprex sort of weapons.

Yeah, range has become more of a critical part of Saryn's Identity,  since she doesn't truly need the Power-Strength until way later in the game (Like, long-Endurance missions, talking 1-2 hours maybe). 

19 hours ago, sludgefest said:

Sure, but if you read what I said, I don't like sitting in a corner, so I didnt worry about range. Maybe it's better to play her with range, but I liked getting up close and running around. I didn't realize there was only one way to build a frame, but before this "buff" I never really needed it, as that was pretty much my build originally. But yeah, I guess it isn't, if you would help.

@LIKE_A_PR3DAT0R I appreciate the apology, and thank you for the builds.

I mean, you can always move around in a mission to spread spores even with max range, just for the extra damage dished out. At that point, it's up to you whether or not you think the added movement will be worth the risks of going down, as it's damage on top of more damage. I personally choose to, when possible, because I disliked the Molt-Turret styles that happened in 2.0.

That said, I don't know how well that will go over with you in PUGs, as it's made people tell me to off myself, but you can always choose to be active.  Just get ready for some serious salt if you build for a 2-hour survival/Endurance run, and get a lot of angry PUG players at you.

@LIKE_A_PR3DAT0R Solid builds, I've been seeing and reading a lot of players in-game are going the route of the second build you posted (for obvious reasons). I still have yet to min-max my Saryn, and TBH, I am thinking I might have to put Umbra and Limbro Prime off to the side to give those a whirl. 

[RealPandemonium]

36 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

Miasma back then was corrosive, not viral; You'd have enemies halved with viral spores back then. But now, you are correct, since the elements got swapped.

Now, range is a must for: Viral Debuffing via Miasma, Spore spreading via Miasma and Spores that burst through hits, and aggro range on Molt. Lanka build was fairly common and well understood, just never publicly mentioned due to fears that it might get nerfed, which it essentially has, though the paradigm has shifted now more towards the ignis or Amprex sort of weapons.

Yeah, range has become more of a critical part of Saryn's Identity,  since she doesn't truly need the Power-Strength until way later in the game (Like, long-Endurance missions, talking 1-2 hours maybe). 

The part about Viral was in reference to Spores; having max range basically made Spores a passive Viral proc on the whole map for free.  It's still the gold standard post-revision, like you say.

The thing about Lanka build was that people didn't really understand its "cooldown" for Toxin spread mechanics, which was that any enemy affected by a Toxin proc from any source was immune to Toxin spread.  There was a whole bunch of speculation about it as a result.  I also laugh that people are afraid to mention OP stuff, especially when DE has usage statistics at the ready anyway.

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

range is a must for: Viral Debuffing via Miasma, Spore spreading via Miasma and Spores that burst through hits, and aggro range on Molt

uh, what? no. Molt has a fixed Threat Level (just like everything else in the game does, the Threat Levels of Abilities and generic Players never changes, only the layer on top of that changes). whether Enemies will be distracted by any Decoy Ability has nothing to do with any Ability Stat.
it's all about placement and situation.

[(PSN)Krikenemp]

I was fairly skeptical at first because I mained Saryn back when she was press-4-to-nuke and dropped off with her after Nidus came out. I find that she is quite fun to play in high-end content, where she used to fall off in effectiveness. Now she has a place there. In lower missions, the rest of her kit does the job just fine so the fact that Spores become tedious there isn't as bothersome as I expected. I still tend to use them, they just take more upkeep, but they're not at all necessary until the enemies can withstand them.

It's certainly not a playstyle for everyone though. The Spores have high upkeep and not everyone wants to babysit them. But like I said, I think you can still get plenty of enjoyment out of Saryn while ignoring Spores completely. Her ult feels better and is fun to use. Toxic Lash lets you focus on gunplay and melee. She's an absolute monster with Condition Overload, having 3 guaranteed procs from abilities alone. I'm enjoying her very much and finally have another frame I'm willing to take to Sorties besides Nidus. Now I need to forma her some more so I can max out some of my corrupted mods.

On 2018-06-20 at 8:25 PM, taiiat said:

well, my playstyle was deleted. now Spores is an automated Ability, it's more AFK than it was before.

Saryn was very interactive and had a lot of deep Synergy before - the AFK Loadout people were grumbling about had the lowest effective AoE DPS of any way of using the Warframe, about equivalent to Thunderbolt on a Crossbow. only effective vs low Level Enemies, where all that matters is hitting them at all, because they only have a couple hundred Health so any Damage Kills them.

 

i don't want Saryn to be un-interactive and be mostly automated - but there isn't any Synergy between the Abilities anymore past always using the Abilities in one set in stone order, Spores and Toxic Lash are things to use constantly and not consider any strategy in utilizing, and Miasma is a really expensive Viral Status + making sure that those low Level Enemies nearby die one or two seconds faster.
Saryn was the most Synergistic and active Warframe in the game, but oh well.

I really can't disagree with this more. Her "synergy" before this rework required using her abilities in a specific, locked order to rack up all the forced modifiers for Miasma to not deal negligible damage. If you didn't Molt > Spore > Lash > Miasma, you weren't getting all the modifiers. Now, Spores can kill things just fine on their own, BUT you have the option to Miasma a group of infected and leave them to hunt down other Spores without the first losing their ability to spread. Now, Spores can spread just fine by shooting or hitting them, BUT you have the option to spread them easier with Toxic Lash, and you can even do so with all your weapons rather than being locked rigidly to melee if you want to use the ability!

Nidus has 10x the synergy Saryn has ever had. I would love for Saryn to have even more synergy, but I can't expect EVERY frame to be as perfect as Nidus.

Edited June 23, 2018 by (PS4)Krikenemp

[RealPandemonium]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)Krikenemp said:

Nidus has 10x the synergy Saryn has ever had. I would love for Saryn to have even more synergy, but I can't expect EVERY frame to be as perfect as Nidus.

What synergy does Nidus have?  Press 2 and spam 1 over and over?  Oops better press 3 to become immortal, ok good.

[sehafoc]

I'm not sure what that build is for TBH,  but it looks like it isn't focused enough for anything.  The main problem with the new Saryn is that due to the spores scaling,  you need to have your power level just right for the content level,  or else spores doesn't work well.  Another thing is that new Sayrn doesn't even need a CP... Spores do the armor stripping for you.  The new Saryn is way more fun to play than the old one IMHO, though the play style is definitely *very* different (well honestly many of the old play styles still work except the decorating molt like a Christmas tree to spread spores...).

You can now take a 0 forma non-prime Saryn and take it through ESO solo with ease (though the old Saryn could as well). The game play is still even fun and engaging.  Try out this build on ESO (no overextended as you said you didn't have it).  Grab literally any staff or pole arm,  put condition overload, range, healing return, and damage mods.  

You almost don't need guns.... like at all,  I bring an radiation Astila and something to pop Nullifier bubbles,  but you literally don't need them.  There is something satisfying about spending a spore to the other side of the map,  hitting the enemy with an explosive weapon (with a guaranteed rad proc), which then spreads the spores to all of his buddies, and then due ot the rad proc they all sit there and attack that guy while dying to spore damage hahaha. (it isn't very efficient, but I find it humorous)

General game play for the build: press one, start spreading spores with your melee until you take enough damage to cast 3... if you take TOO much damage press 2 or 4 (because of Rage if you take too much damage your energy is full).  You can literally treat duration and efficiency like dump stats.
 

I dub this build Raging Saryn (due to all of the rage mods)

For lower level content just go press 4 to win and build miasma and toxic lash,  though,  there are better frames for lower levels... like Ember... for example.  but you can still wreck with Saryn.  I hope this helps

Edited June 23, 2018 by sehafoc

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

I dislike new spores for one reason.

 

They are too strong! using them in starchart is impossible because they get to lethal levels instantly. You have to keep recasting spores or forget them entirely.

Spores are only balanced against lvl 500 plus enemies.. which is fine but i wish they were as fun against weaker enemies.

There is a such thing as too strong... most of this games content is below lvl 50.

I love her but she is only fun in high level content well above 60-600

Edited June 23, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Krikenemp said:

I really can't disagree with this more. Her "synergy" before this rework required using her abilities in a specific, locked order to rack up all the forced modifiers for Miasma to not deal negligible damage.

If you didn't Molt > Spore > Lash > Miasma, you weren't getting all the modifiers.

 

Now, Spores can kill things just fine on their own, BUT you have the option to Miasma a group of infected and leave them to hunt down other Spores without the first losing their ability to spread.
Now, Spores can spread just fine by shooting or hitting them, BUT you have the option to spread them easier with Toxic Lash, and you can even do so with all your weapons rather than being locked rigidly to melee if you want to use the ability!

 

Nidus has 10x the synergy Saryn has ever had. I would love for Saryn to have even more synergy, but I can't expect EVERY frame to be as perfect as Nidus.

Miasma was and still is basically just a CC Ability(though that got nerfed, the Warframe with barely any CC in the first place having that CC nerfed), it brings little to the Warframe thesedays. generic AoE Blasts have long since stopped being a complete answer to everything in the game (since Enemy Density isn't so sparse anymore).

we need to determine what effectiveness we're talking about. are we talking about what lets you AFK a low Level Defense the most? or what Kills Enemies almost regardless of their Level the best? with Saryn 2015:

• the most effective order was to apply Toxin Status via Toxic Lash to your intended Host, then apply Spores and spread it. that would deal the most localized Damage, getting the Toxin spread as well as Spore Bursts for heavy Damage.
• another option was to apply Spores and cause Spore Bursts with Toxic Lash continuously across Enemies, effective if your Melee Weapon is already 'warmed up' and you were looking to Damage an area rapidly. potentially losing a bit of Damage per Spore Burst but doing it much faster.
  • Molt could be used as a battery to hold Spores before you want/need to spread them in that area.
• another option was to spread Spores and Toxic Lash indiscriminately, solely for the purposes of casting Miasma. viable for mid Level Enemies, though really wasting a lot of potential in Spores and Toxic Lash and so heavily Level limited.
• another option was to spread Spores indiscriminately from Molt with nothing else (the popular AFKFarming used in Defense Missions). effective for a few waves of a low Level Defense Mission, applying ballpark equal DPS to Thunerbolt on a Crossbow to every Enemy on the map.

there's a few others i guess but even less worth mentioning than using Spores and Toxic Lash purely for Toxin Status to spam Miasma - that strategy is already weak enough that i wasn't sure i wanted to include it, let alone weaker ones.

 

and now with Saryn 2018:

• yes, Spores will do just fine on their own. so you Cast them on an Enemy, spread them with Toxic Lash (because there's literally no reason to not always be hitting everything in sight with Toxic Lash now), and watch the game play itself. as long as you spam some AoE to cause some Spore Bursts now and again, Spores will play the game for you.
• you could cast Miasma, though if you're using Spores there isn't a whole lot of point unless you forgot to bring Equipment that is effective at spreading Spores via Toxic Lash.
  Miasma is also useful for completely AFK'ing low Level Missions. mainly Defense.
• now you shoot everything with Toxic Lash because the Ability applies the same thing to both Melee and Guns - and so hitting things with Melee is almost entirely pointless because your Guns will do that better 90% of the time.

the big problem is when Warframes have Abilities that you might as well run on a Macro because there's absolutely no reason to not have the Ability active every single second of the Mission regardless of what you're doing and how you're doing it.

 

- - - - - 

 

Nidus has.. somewhat acceptable Synergy. it's only skin deep though, unfortunately.
Larva makes using Virulence easy and makes you not have to position yourself with good lines on the Enemies to hit them well without CC'ing them.

Link & Ravenous are there to make you very durable so that you can mindlessly stand in one spot spamming Larva to use Virulence on.
they do have side uses of doubling your Virulence rate so you can build hits faster (incase you died, and need to build up quickly, basically). the Maggots can supplement your DPS incase you're playing a Mission for several hours where double Virulence hitting for 100,000+ won't be enough Damage.

the main thing Nidus does is casual onehanded death of Enemies with some scaling so that you can continue doing the same thing vs Enemies 100 Levels higher.
it's pretty alright, though i wish it had a lot more depth and didn't serve to all only come back to two things (that being building Damage Scaling faster, or surviving more to be able to easily build Damage Scaling faster).

i'd like all Warframes to have as much depth as Saryn 2015 and Mag, though since other Warframes haven't had such depth previously, there isn't a significant feeling of loss since nothing has been lost. can't miss really good stuff if it hasn't existed (yet?), heh.

Saryn 2015 and Mag don't have all roads lead to rome, something Warframes tend to lack... where using Abilities in one way covers this situation, while using them in another way covers a separate situation but doesn't cover the first situation all that well. instead thesedays we have orderings to the Abilities that are mandatory along with annoyingly short core loops that have no escape. both Nidus and Saryn 2018 share that - your core loop is about one second long and will never deviate throughout the Mission. spread Spores via Toxic Lash on as many things as possible, and cluster Enemies with Larva and then cast Virulence. there is no way off Mr Bones wild ride.
so what i'm saying there is that both Saryn 2015 and Mag have a lot of roads to and end means, but at the same time there is a reason to NOT use certain Abilities in certain situations, to maximize all of the Abilities in the near future after that. there was a reason for Enemies to not have Spores on them, or to not have Toxin Status transferred to them, or to not be locked into place with Fracturing Crush, or to not have their Armor/Shields burst as soon as they are within Range of Polarize, or to not cast Magnetize on any and every Enemy that comes within view, or to not relocate Enemies with Pull, or to not cast Miasma and Stun Enemies..... Et Cetera.
reasons to use Abilities to a singlular or combined means to an end, or to not use them in favor of creating a more opportune situation for your Abilites / setting yourself up for a more opportune situation by using the Abilities differently. that's just extremely rare.

Edited June 23, 2018 by taiiat

[(PSN)Krikenemp]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

Nidus has.. somewhat acceptable Synergy. it's only skin deep though, unfortunately.

Larva makes using Virulence easy and makes you not have to position yourself with good lines on the Enemies to hit them well without CC'ing them.

Link & Ravenous are there to make you very durable so that you can mindlessly stand in one spot spamming Larva to use Virulence on.
they do have side uses of doubling your Virulence rate so you can build hits faster (incase you died, and need to build up quickly, basically). the Maggots can supplement your DPS incase you're playing a Mission for several hours where double Virulence hitting for 100,000+ won't be enough Damage.

the main thing Nidus does is casual onehanded death of Enemies with some scaling so that you can continue doing the same thing vs Enemies 100 Levels higher.
it's pretty alright, though i wish it had a lot more depth and didn't serve to all only come back to two things (that being building Damage Scaling faster, or surviving more to be able to easily build Damage Scaling faster).

Skin deep? Apparently just modifying their damage, like Saryn, is deep? Rather than actually changing what they do and how they perform?

Virulence synergizes with Ravenous by popping maggots for more damage and stack gain

Virulence synergizes with Larva by grouping enemies so you hit more targets at once and get positive energy gain

Larva Synergizes with Ravenous by making the maggot explosions overlap multiple targets for even greater stack gain

Parasitic Link synergizes with Virulence by casting it a second time

Parasitic Link (on enemies) synergizes with Ravenous by making you tanky enough to gain health despite taking constant damage

Parasitic Link (on allies) synergizes with Ravenous by further increasing your power strength and thus the group heal of Ravenous (yeah this isn't just for making yourself unkillable, there's flexibility too)

...

All of Saryns abilities used to increase Miasma's damage

Toxic Lash spreads Spores (which simply shooting them also did, so it didn't even add a unique effect) and gave energy back

Spores could be casted on Molt for brainless standing in one place spam

 

Idk, I still think Nidus wins the synergy contest hands down. It alters what his abilities do instead of just superficially modifying their numbers. I mean I love Saryn, but Nidus is just too well-rounded. What else is there besides doing damage and not dying in Warframe? CC? Nidus does that better than Saryn too. The one thing he isn't more than baseline good at is stealth, but that's a niche most frames aren't any better at. Also not sure where you're getting that current Saryn plays herself when Spores don't spread unless you're popping them. You can't afk in a corner after casting Spores on Molt a few times anymore. I don't understand how you afk with Miasma when it doesn't spread, lasts only a few seconds, and has to be recasted to hit new enemies. Toxic Lash is doubled for melee, which is what encourages using melee; again, I don't understand how you can take a change that literally lets you use it in more situations with more things and somehow claim it's more restrictive. Idk, you seem a little overly attached to original Saryn to the point its warping our judgement.

Edited June 23, 2018 by (PS4)Krikenemp

[(PSN)Krikenemp]

4 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

What synergy does Nidus have?  Press 2 and spam 1 over and over?  Oops better press 3 to become immortal, ok good.

You're conflating the gameplay of the frame with synergy between abilities. They're not the same thing.

Definition of synergy

plural synergies

1 : synergism; broadly : combined action or operation

2 : a mutually advantageous conjunction or compatibility of distinct business participants or elements (such as resources or efforts)

But I digress, my intention wasn't to make this about Nidus so this is the last I'll mention it.

Edited June 23, 2018 by (PS4)Krikenemp

[taiiat]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Krikenemp said:

Skin deep? Apparently just modifying their damage, like Saryn, is deep? Rather than actually changing what they do and how they perform?

the DoT/Toxin theme Saryn has... the biggest branch of that in any Video Game is Damage, yes. Saryn 2015 had many ways to mix to deal Damage. seeing as 3/4 of the Abilities are Damage centric.

 

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Krikenemp said:

• Virulence synergizes with Ravenous by popping maggots for more damage and stack gain
• Virulence synergizes with Larva by grouping enemies so you hit more targets at once and get positive energy gain
• Larva Synergizes with Ravenous by making the maggot explosions overlap multiple targets for even greater stack gain
• Parasitic Link synergizes with Virulence by casting it a second time
• Parasitic Link (on enemies) synergizes with Ravenous by making you tanky enough to gain health despite taking constant damage
• Parasitic Link (on allies) synergizes with Ravenous by further increasing your power strength and thus the group heal of Ravenous (yeah this isn't just for making yourself unkillable, there's flexibility too)

Idk, I still think Nidus wins the synergy contest hands down. It alters what his abilities do instead of just superficially modifying their numbers.

 

Also not sure where you're getting that current Saryn plays herself when Spores don't spread unless you're popping them. You can't afk in a corner after casting Spores on Molt a few times anymore.

I don't understand how you afk with Miasma when it doesn't spread, lasts only a few seconds, and has to be recasted to hit new enemies.

Toxic Lash is doubled for melee, which is what encourages using melee; again, I don't understand how you can take a change that literally lets you use it in more situations with more things and somehow claim it's more restrictive.
Idk, you seem a little overly attached to original Saryn to the point its warping our judgement.

all of your bullet points, come back to only two things. building his Hit Counter, and increasing self Survivability. note that Larva doesn't make Virulence Energy positive, it lets you do it without having to Cast Virulence with strategy.
(increasing the Power Strength of other Players isn't synergy, it's just a feature. a powerful one but not one that has any impact on Nidus. increasing your own Power Strength is one in the same as increasing your Hit Counter since both almost entirely simply increase your Damage)

Nidus isn't morphing his Abilities by using them together. simply making them easier to use and making it faster to increase your Damage and Survivability. more of what the Abilities already do.

 

Spores is still automated. they deal the Damage for you. you Spread them with indiscriminate AoE so that they continue Spreading, and then watch as the Ability Kills things for you.

for low Level Missions, Miasma Kills all Enemies within Range. so..... the popular thing is to use it for Defense, and Cast it while AFK because Enemies that only have a few hundred Health die to being hit by anything. the exact reason why Players could and would AFK with spamming Spores on it's own previously. because it hits everything on the map and tickling things is okay when it has no Health.

increasing the strength of Toxic Lash for Melee means very little. Guns can hit from effectively infinity farther away than Melee. i've been requesting Toxic Lash to do something to Guns for years - but every single time having an important bullet point that it has to be something different. because if it does the same thing as it does for Melee, then one is objectively superior to the other and you're not making things any better then (worse, rather). and since Toxic Lash does the same thing to both Guns and Melee...... well that's exactly what happened. i could say i told you so to.... someone.
yes, i'm attached to what were really good ideas for Ability interactions, and having objectively less of them doesn't make a better Warframe. where the parts that are now gone, are all of the parts BUT the AFK parts. interaction removed, but the zero effort idling almost untouched. but knowing how the game works past and present doesn't warp my judgment, just allows me to have judgement.

[Xolgys]

Am 20.6.2018 um 20:04 schrieb sludgefest:

They said it was a buff, but I only see a spore nerf.

spores deal corrosive dmg/proccs and can easily remove armor now. the infinitely scaling dmg so as the armor removal are meant to be good late game since early game enemies are too weak. for early game u might have the impression that its a nerf because enemies are simply too weak to keep spores up and scaling very well. it IS clearly a buff though because early game it doesnt really matter if u have a tiny nerf or buff, late game is way more important.

 

vor 57 Minuten schrieb taiiat:

increasing the strength of Toxic Lash for Melee means very little. Guns can hit from effectively infinity farther away than Melee. i've been requesting Toxic Lash to do something to Guns for years - but every single time having an important bullet point that it has to be something different. because if it does the same thing as it does for Melee, then one is objectively superior to the other and you're not making things any better then (worse, rather). and since Toxic Lash does the same thing to both Guns and Melee...... well that's exactly what happened. i could say i told you so to.... someone.

arguably its twice as strong on melee now which is a difference to be exact. i wouldnt neccessarily agree with ur point since u can only use 1 weapon at a time anyway and with toxic leash being like this u basically have the option to go purely melee or not. in the end we could ALWAYS ask what u just did right there, not just concerning abilities but also weapons and frames: "isnt there a better option doing clearly the same ?"  its currently a big concern for Nyx since Loki arguably has a better "chaos" available and if the new frame is released as previewed he also clearly is the better Nyx. ur "complaint" if i may call it that applies generally to many things and in the end its always player choice to decide what to exactly pick. it would be a general point for critique to state that the game needs more diversity with weapons, with innate special weapon properties like passives for example. not just with new weapons, older ones should get such too. maybe not all of them but many.

spores with infinite scaling could potentially play the game for u, but realistically the corrosive proccs are more important later in the game and u will mostly end up killing them with ur gun/melee faster up to a certain point. in theory its true, sure, but in practice they do not spread themselves and players do have to keep them spreading/up no matter enemy level although when players go up against rly high level sure, if they keep spores up properly they will deal most dmg easily, but that doesnt happen on its own as u stated. there is always critique to be made but i personally prefer the current saryn more than the previous 2 versions. the issue about CC is even more present, i agree, but then she would only lack innate invisibility access and she would be the perfect frame, literally, although invis would render the need for CC pointless for her alone.

Greetings~

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Xydeth

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Xydeth said:

spores with infinite scaling could potentially play the game for u, but realistically the corrosive proccs are more important later in the game and u will mostly end up killing them with ur gun/melee faster up to a certain point.

yes, you can still move and Kill Enemies yourself. it's not like the Abilities prevent you from pressing the buttons on your keyboard - but it's still completely automated. because the only ""interactive"" part of it is an AFK check of whether you're hitting Enemies yourself here and there.
you wouldn't go actually AFK but the Ability is an AFK Ability because the Player has almost zero hand in what the Ability does, it's automatic.

[Xolgys]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb taiiat:

yes, you can still move and Kill Enemies yourself. it's not like the Abilities prevent you from pressing the buttons on your keyboard - but it's still completely automated. because the only ""interactive"" part of it is an AFK check of whether you're hitting Enemies yourself here and there.
you wouldn't go actually AFK but the Ability is an AFK Ability because the Player has almost zero hand in what the Ability does, it's automatic.

thats the essence of DoT. it still doesnt spread itself and if a player can rly go afk then i wonder what level of enemies we are a talking about. u can go afk on low lv defense missions maybe but thats it. i feel like ur seeing it VERY negatively only because u dislike the changes, or am i wrong ? because its not as bad as u state here, by far not.

[sludgdge]

8 hours ago, Xydeth said:

it IS clearly a buff though because early game it doesnt really matter if u have a tiny nerf or buff, late game is way more important.

I think what people keep getting confused by, which I apologize for, is not so much the damage that the spores deal, but the gameplay. I never meant that it was technically a nerf, it's a nerf in my opinion because of how it works now, not what the numbers deal, no matter how you mod. I've used the builds here and I'm still bored with it compared to what I use to do.

Edited June 23, 2018 by sludgefest
forgot a few sentences

[taiiat]

10 hours ago, Xydeth said:

thats the essence of DoT.

i feel like ur seeing it VERY negatively only because u dislike the changes, or am i wrong ? because its not as bad as u state here, by far not.

no, hands off with no interaction isn't the essence of DoT. the essence is only that foes take Damage numerous times over an extended period. that does not translate to automated Abilities that play for you.

i see it "negatively" because that's the facts. that's what the Abilities do. and yes ofcourse i dislike how much Saryn has been gutted into being a hands off zero interaction Warframe. Saryn 2015 was very involved and Saryn 2018 is literally what Digital Extremes said they didn't like about Saryn 2015 (hands off zero interaction AFK Damage). but all they did was remove all of the deep Synergy, but kept the AFK-esque AoE Damage.

Saryn 2018 isn't going to suddenly become less apathetic - these Abilities are gutted. it's good for the game, sure. because Abilities that are press button get cookie is about the level of engagement that the Playerbase wants and can handle. but that doesn't mean i'm going to support it.

4 hours ago, sludgefest said:

it's a nerf in my opinion because of how it works now, not what the numbers deal, no matter how you mod. I've used the builds here and I'm still bored with it compared to what I use to do.

something like 'the fun was nerfed but not the automatic AoE DPS'.

[Cibyllae]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

no, hands off with no interaction isn't the essence of DoT. the essence is only that foes take Damage numerous times over an extended period. that does not translate to automated Abilities that play for you.

i see it "negatively" because that's the facts. that's what the Abilities do. and yes ofcourse i dislike how much Saryn has been gutted into being a hands off zero interaction Warframe. Saryn 2015 was very involved and Saryn 2018 is literally what Digital Extremes said they didn't like about Saryn 2015 (hands off zero interaction AFK Damage). but all they did was remove all of the deep Synergy, but kept the AFK-esque AoE Damage.

Saryn 2018 isn't going to suddenly become less apathetic - these Abilities are gutted. it's good for the game, sure. because Abilities that are press button get cookie is about the level of engagement that the Playerbase wants and can handle. but that doesn't mean i'm going to support it.

something like 'the fun was nerfed but not the automatic AoE DPS'.

So how would you have had the Spores ability changed, assuming that spores had to change.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

So how would you have had the Spores ability changed, assuming that spores had to change.

allowing Toxin transfer to be based off of the Total Toxin Status on an Enemy, rather than only the largest one present. (though you would get slight increases from a couple Toxin Status, but not enough to matter and still then leaning towards whatever hits the hardest)
i understand that for performance reasons replicating potentially dozens of Toxin Status to dozens of Enemies isn't ideal. so combining them all together into one Toxin Status to transfer is fine.

probably something on the Spores and Toxin cooldown... it's good that there is one but maybe it should've been shorter.
significantly reduced Spread Range when Spore Bursts happen off of Molt.
Molt being eligible as a Target for Spores, so it can actually be used as a Totem for Spores.

 

and.... that's it. Spores was already a very well rounded Ability that brought good features to the scene and when combined with the other Abilities, created powerhouse Damage that would trickle Enemies until you yourself got involved and created Spore Bursts for very high Damage.
a great mixture of low-mid Damage DoT with the capability to deal very high Damage in localized areas.
Toxic Lash not providing a benefit to Guns (a different one than Melee), and Miasma lacking mechanics to utilize were the main issues in Saryn 2015, aside from Bugs that had been documented but waved off as 'features' even though they limited what Weapons would synergize with Saryn. and the questionable decisions for Regenerative Molt to be an Augment rather than a part of the Ability (though since the Armor got increased again, Saryn isn't at a net loss of EHP anymore and so i'm more open to it being an Augment).

if you want more details, i don't remember all of my recent Posts but here's the two big ones:
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/955023-developer-workshop-saryn-revisited-20/?do=findComment&comment=9756063
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/959752-dev-workshop-spores-revisited-saryn/?do=findComment&comment=9793040
there's a lot of history of things i've said, i don't usually remember to keep local dissertations of the things i've said to keep them saved for use in the future unfortunately, i should get better at doing that. would make it easier to put the pieces of a subject all together as a concise package.

Edited June 24, 2018 by taiiat

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

allowing Toxin transfer to be based off of the Total Toxin Status on an Enemy, rather than only the largest one present. (though you would get slight increases from a couple Toxin Status, but not enough to matter and still then leaning towards whatever hits the hardest)

It did take the sum of all Toxin procs, not only the largest ones.  Naturally the weapon-based ones eclipsed the rest, but they were all counted.  

[SyBuhr]

On 2018-06-22 at 8:32 PM, taiiat said:

uh, what? no. Molt has a fixed Threat Level (just like everything else in the game does, the Threat Levels of Abilities and generic Players never changes, only the layer on top of that changes). whether Enemies will be distracted by any Decoy Ability has nothing to do with any Ability Stat.
it's all about placement and situation.

Yep, just double checked it. Kinda makes it pointless to place it on the ground, since it seems to rely on LoS (or, the enemies must be able to see it) in order for it to actually draw aggro. Almost better to place it in the air mid-bullet-jump.

Still, range is practically a must-have on Saryn given her kit (Even 2.0 suffered from this as well), even if we disregarded her Molt completely.

[Klokwerkaos]

So on this nidus vs saryn thing...

MR 25 Nidus main (about 80%) and I use saryn for pretty much all my ESO runs.  Nidus isn't really a frame meant to synergize with other frames so much (sorta?), though his abilities synergize with each other.

The main reason I bring Nidus to a typical mission is because I know I can get the job done myself regardless of how bad the rest of the team is without any trouble unless it's tridolon, eso, or sortie spy which other frames are just going to be better suited to and nidus can't realistically solo with any degree of optimization (even though it's technically possible).

The main reason I select Saryn for ESO is because I'm guaranteed to keep efficiency up and get 8-12 rounds depending on the effectiveness of the rest of the team, I'll always get at least my 8 regardless of how bad the rest of the team sucks if I don't get frustrated with them and leave first.

I don't use saryn on the star chart because it's largely overkill to the point of tanking the mission efficiency where I can generally just run through with volt or nidus (depending on if the mission is a maze run or a stop and go objective) and an ignis wraith and everything dies so fast by holding down the trigger it really doesn't matter, where as stopping once to cast spores is actually a waste of time in these types of runs.

Like most things there is no "best frame" it's all about using the right tool for the job.

Comparing Nidus to Saryn is a lot like comparing a tigris prime to an ignis wraith, both are exceptionally powerful, but they have different uses and it's not really fair to compare them because there are situations where you would reasonably want one or the other.

 

[YandereWaifu]

On 2018-06-20 at 9:25 PM, taiiat said:

well, my playstyle was deleted. now Spores is an automated Ability, it's more AFK than it was before.

Saryn was very interactive and had a lot of deep Synergy before - the AFK Loadout people were grumbling about had the lowest effective AoE DPS of any way of using the Warframe, about equivalent to Thunderbolt on a Crossbow. only effective vs low Level Enemies, where all that matters is hitting them at all, because they only have a couple hundred Health so any Damage Kills them.

 

i don't want Saryn to be un-interactive and be mostly automated - but there isn't any Synergy between the Abilities anymore past always using the Abilities in one set in stone order, Spores and Toxic Lash are things to use constantly and not consider any strategy in utilizing, and Miasma is a really expensive Viral Status + making sure that those low Level Enemies nearby die one or two seconds faster.
Saryn was the most Synergistic and active Warframe in the game, but oh well.

ill have to disagree as for me atleast it was considerably higher than my other DPS frames back then especially if i was in a party built around saryn also i will admit that she was very synergistic and could be active but i think the spore turret saryns really brought this on though i feel like new saryn isnt as different as i still need to baby sit my spores to keep em going since they dont carry over on spore deaths anymore.