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Melee 3.0 will only make Memeing Strike syndrome worse


Hyohakusha
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Since we still haven't gotten an update on the state of Melee 3.0, I'd like to point out an obvious problem. Namely, how it's supposed to "fix" Maiming Strike, and yet not only does it do nothing to Maiming Strike while nerfing other aspects of melee, it actually provides more incentive for using Maiming Strike. Moving the Combo Counter bonus onto one type of attack that resets on use gives no incentive to build for combo counter. Instead, people are going to build for the highest amount of damage per normal attack.

eg. Primed Pressure Point, Primed Reach, Organ Shatter, Maiming Strike, Primed Fever Strike and 3x 90% elemental damage mods, on a polearm/ zaw/ scoliac. Increasing the base damage of weapons only incentivizes this further. You'll end up dealing far, far more damage off of one combo meter-less maim-slide, guaranteed, in far less time than it takes to build up a combo and blow it on one "heavy attack".

Combining blocking and channeling isn't too great of an idea either, as if it costs energy to block, and that block doesn't stop 100% of incoming damage, you're now losing energy and health at the same time. Not only would it be an inefficient use of resources, we have no details on how it will affect Life Strike. And considering Life Strike is also a main source of survivability for everyone's new favorite frame, I doubt a nerf, reduction in efficiency or change to its functionality would be received too well either.

In many ways, Melee 3.0 and Damage 2.5 have the same problem. Damage 2.5 was supposed to get people away from meta weapons like Tigris and Atterax, and yet would have only buffed them due to the way it was calculated. Melee 3.0 is supposed to get people away from Maiming Strike, yet due to the mechanics and math behind it, it makes Maiming even more ridiculous, while nerfing Blood Rush instead for some reason.

Also, reduce Scoliac's disposition already. It's +range +combo timer Scoliac macro-users that are causing all the complaints in the first place.

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Hmm, I feel like this "maiming strike problem" is somehow blown out of proportion. 

Of course not all player's experiences are the same but personally i have a few really strong slide crit rivens + maiming strike yet I never feel like I actually need these as doing regular melee attacks feels a lot more fun and does absolutely enough damage. Yet I guess I don't mind too much if someone else decides to make a beyblade out of his warframe xD

Edited by DjKaplis
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On ‎2018‎-‎06‎-‎20 at 2:34 PM, Hyohakusha said:

Since we still haven't gotten an update on the state of Melee 3.0, I'd like to point out an obvious problem. Namely, how it's supposed to "fix" Maiming Strike, and yet not only does it do nothing to Maiming Strike while nerfing other aspects of melee, it actually provides more incentive for using Maiming Strike. Moving the Combo Counter bonus onto one type of attack that resets on use gives no incentive to build for combo counter. Instead, people are going to build for the highest amount of damage per normal attack.

eg. Primed Pressure Point, Primed Reach, Organ Shatter, Maiming Strike, Primed Fever Strike and 3x 90% elemental damage mods, on a polearm/ zaw/ scoliac. Increasing the base damage of weapons only incentivizes this further. You'll end up dealing far, far more damage off of one combo meter-less maim-slide, guaranteed, in far less time than it takes to build up a combo and blow it on one "heavy attack".

Combining blocking and channeling isn't too great of an idea either, as if it costs energy to block, and that block doesn't stop 100% of incoming damage, you're now losing energy and health at the same time. Not only would it be an inefficient use of resources, we have no details on how it will affect Life Strike. And considering Life Strike is also a main source of survivability for everyone's new favorite frame, I doubt a nerf, reduction in efficiency or change to its functionality would be received too well either.

In many ways, Melee 3.0 and Damage 2.5 have the same problem. Damage 2.5 was supposed to get people away from meta weapons like Tigris and Atterax, and yet would have only buffed them due to the way it was calculated. Melee 3.0 is supposed to get people away from Maiming Strike, yet due to the mechanics and math behind it, it makes Maiming even more ridiculous, while nerfing Blood Rush instead for some reason.

Also, reduce Scoliac's disposition already. It's +range +combo timer Scoliac macro-users that are causing all the complaints in the first place.

Not sure what I can say on the "Maiming strike will become more popular because of the changes", because we're flying mostly blind.

 

But the Channel/block changes seem to be pretty straightforward:

Makes all blocking 100%, because that's what channel-blocking does now.

They mentioned changing up how/what channeling/channel-blocking would cost, but they mentioned that it's probably still energy.

You can attack while channeling. You can attack while blocking. You can attack while channel-blocking. Life strike would seem to be entirely unaffected, just attack while channel-blocking.

Sure, maybe you'd prefer you didn't have to pay the channel-block cost when all you want is life-strike, or pay the Life-strike cost when all you want to do is channel-block, but I'd like to think those situations are relatively rare.

If you're low on health, you probably want to life-strike AND block.

If you're low on energy, some frames would want to take damage to trigger rage, while others would simply run and energy-pizza anyways. So neither would be blocking or channeling much.

If you're low on both health and energy, you've made bad decisions to get to that point.

If you're topped off on both, you're probably using energy for abilities, saving some for life-strike when necessary.

 

But, again, we're flying blind here. They could have made channeling cost 100% of your energy bar to be a Rage-of-the-gods Exalted-blade mode, for all we know.

 

As for your thoughts on damage 2.5, I was under the impression it was more as a dipping-your-toes-into-the-water for reworking all damage and all enemy resistances/armor.

If it was meant for getting people away from meta weapons, though, then I agree that it did a pretty terrible job. Completely fails to make Impact or Puncture meta-worthy.

Likewise, I feel like melee 3.0 is simply polishing up all of the neglected melee mechanics that have room to grow: Roll-mid-combo, combo's-made-more-utilitarian, slam-attack-not-just-faceplants, etc.

the Melee-combo-counter change seems to have nothing to do with meta weapons, seeing as how most all weapons benefit from it as is.

Rather, it seem like it's just their first idea as to how to change up the process of melee-ing. Making it different than just mashing E (Whether the idea succeeds or not is debatable).

The only directed-at-the-meta change seems to be the not-through-walls change.

Again, if it is/was intended to help alleviate the meta, then it's really not doing much to fix that.

Edited by chainchompguy3
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I can only hope. Nothing would fill me with more joy than to see the people who begged for the whole system to be nerfed instead be responsible for the exploit becoming even more prevalent. 

Actually what id rather see is an official statement that "nothing will ever be nerfed ever, so stop asking or stop playing" from DE because I'm tired of seeing good games ruined by nerf herders. But as that isn't going to happen, seeing the nerf herders responsible for making them selves more miserable will be a nice runners up prize...

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@peterc3 Oh crap, I forgot to rag on that ridiculous gif. Check the "Current and Future Plans for Melee" thread in the Dev Workshop, and you'll see something no one has ever done willingly. They have an obviously staged gif of a dude spinning in a corner continuously with an Atterax, not going anywhere. The only time I've ever seen this happen in 2.6k hours in-game is when someone has a spin macro and they get stuck. At which point, it's our duty to laugh at them.

Also, @DjKaplis you're right, it is. The only time I've seen people rage at each other is when a Scoliac range riven and macro's are being used. Thing is, alot of new players don't know that they exist/ don't understand the mechanics behind it, and Maiming takes the blame simply because its more widely known about. It also creates a nice excuse to nerf melee.

And @Sibernetika that's also one of my issues. Hold forward and hold back combo's suck. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about if you ever used a stance that's set up with them. If you have a hold forward, you pretty much always end up doing the hold forward, unless you have a hold block to override it. Meanwhile, you're not going to want to move away from the enemy your swinging at. If they're unifying the combo inputs, hold block, hold left and hold right would work the best imo, but if blocking is channeling and costs energy, I have no idea how that's gonna end well.

Basically, I was wondering if anyone heard anything new from DE about it in the month I was gone, but I guess they haven't said squat lol.

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21 hours ago, Hyohakusha said:

@peterc3 Oh crap, I forgot to rag on that ridiculous gif. Check the "Current and Future Plans for Melee" thread in the Dev Workshop, and you'll see something no one has ever done willingly. They have an obviously staged gif of a dude spinning in a corner continuously with an Atterax, not going anywhere. The only time I've ever seen this happen in 2.6k hours in-game is when someone has a spin macro and they get stuck. At which point, it's our duty to laugh at them.
 

I've actually seen this a few times in survival missions. They'd do that and then AFK until the mission ends.

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On ‎20‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 3:29 PM, DjKaplis said:

Hmm, I feel like this "maiming strike problem" is somehow blown out of proportion. 

Of course not all player's experiences are the same but personally i have a few really strong slide crit rivens + maiming strike yet I never feel like I actually need these as doing regular melee attacks feels a lot more fun and does absolutely enough damage. Yet I guess I don't mind too much if someone else decides to make a beyblade out of his warframe xD

Yep. MS Whips are king of ~80-100 and below, unless highly buffed with team/frame powers and perfect storm rivens, they hit a wall there. Past level 100, exodia augmented zaws, fast zaw polearms with high range, and twirling spire in particular with its multiple forced procs, take over. Zaw staves are also extremely powerful due to their high attack rate. Due to whatever reasons, high mat requirements of zaws and exodia, entrenchment of the MS meta, etc., the player base hasn't figured this out yet or aren't talking about it.

MS is not and has never been the "boogeyman" the player base makes it out to be. It does not apply conditions nearly as quickly as other stance combos, does not provide meaningful CC while maintaining top damage as zaws are capable of. The "MS Hate Meme" is just another of so many examples of misinformation in games spread by players lacking knowledge. The actual fact-based complaint is highly specific, the scoliac riven disposition is too high. I don't agree with it personally, but that's what people are -really- complaining about in all the MS hate. I use MS on a S Lecta farming low level up to sorties these days, but for anything higher, unless strategically buffed by a premade team, it's going to be an exodia augmented zaw using proc forcing stance combos and forced finishers. 

Edited by Buttaface
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On 2018-06-21 at 9:21 PM, (PS4)Echo_X said:

I can only hope. Nothing would fill me with more joy than to see the people who begged for the whole system to be nerfed instead be responsible for the exploit becoming even more prevalent. 

Actually what id rather see is an official statement that "nothing will ever be nerfed ever, so stop asking or stop playing" from DE because I'm tired of seeing good games ruined by nerf herders. But as that isn't going to happen, seeing the nerf herders responsible for making them selves more miserable will be a nice runners up prize...

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