I think it's about time we made shotguns with less than 100% status chance not completely useless

[ShiraHagane]

1 minute ago, polarity said:

So basically this is your typical 'Wah wah wah, my gun can't one-shot everything'.

no, I use the strun wraith for this very reason, I just wish that the other shotguns were able to keep up for variety's sake

[Syasob]

8 minutes ago, ShiraHagane said:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Status_Chance#Multishot

if it was division, shotguns with 100% status chance wouldn't proc on every pellet.

Well, sorry for being rude earlier, now that makes sense.

Status chance mods increase listed chance linearly, believed that they just increase per pellet chance and listed value is multiplied by the number of pellets.

[venon23]

10 minutes ago, ShiraHagane said:

why though?

why should a weapon that is listed as having 90% of the status chance as another have only a third?

because is per shoot
in that one shoot u have 50% / per number of pallets
weapons like quarktak and akjaggara are not shotguns but weapons with already multyshot int them thats why are difrente

[ShiraHagane]

1 minute ago, VeNoN said:

because is per shoot
in that one shoot u have 50% / per number of pallets
weapons like quarktak and akjaggara are not shotguns but weapons with already multyshot int them thats why are difrente

but shotguns with 100% status chance are the exception?

why are they allowed to have their status chance be per pellet, but not all the other shotguns?

[polarity]

7 minutes ago, ShiraHagane said:

no, I use the strun wraith for this very reason, I just wish that the other shotguns were able to keep up for variety's sake

Most of the other shotguns are perfectly fine and well balanced, within the level range of the game for which the developers care to maintain some degree of balance.  Just because you have found something that is still usable outside of that range, does not mean that everything else needs to be brought up to the same level.

No sane game developer is going to both allow players access to an endless content with uncapped ever increasing difficulty, and then attempt to balance every single item in the game around the furthest point that the players have managed to reach.  It is an exercise in futility.

Feel free to enjoy the endless content, but don't go expecting every item to be viable there, instead of being limited to a meta that only every becomes smaller as you advance.

[GinKenshin]

15 minutes ago, ShiraHagane said:

why though?

why should a weapon that is listed as having 90% of the status chance as another have only a third?

my man, you're talking about 2 different things here 

 

showing the SC per pellet is fine and dandy, I'm with you on that.....making the full status as we have it AS the status per pellet won't happen 

 

for example, I'll take the pyrana: 

another stat on the stat screen showing the status per pellet as 5% (for example) is ok, while another status showing the whole status which is 10% (for example)...this I'm ok with 

 

but making the status per pellet 10% and making it act like the rest of the weapons won't happen 

[ShiraHagane]

1 minute ago, GinKenshin said:

5% (for example) is ok

you mean 1.06%

[polarity]

16 minutes ago, ShiraHagane said:

but shotguns with 100% status chance are the exception?

why are they allowed to have their status chance be per pellet, but not all the other shotguns?

Go back to school, and learn some goddamned math.

[ShiraHagane]

Just now, polarity said:

Go back to school, and learn some goddamned math.

what exactly is wrong with my math?

do I have to explain this to every single person?

[polarity]

No, it seems the math needs to be explained to you.

If you have a number of identical dice (equivalent to our number of pellets), and you want to always be guaranteed that you will roll a one at least once (100% status), how many sides should the dice have?

[ShiraHagane]

6 minutes ago, polarity said:

No, it seems the math needs to be explained to you.

If you have a number of identical dice (equivalent to our number of pellets), and you want to always be guaranteed that you will roll a one at least once (100% status), how many sides should the dice have?

I don't think they make one-sided dice.

edit: turns out they do, the more you know.

Edited June 21, 2018 by ShiraHagane

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, ShiraHagane said:

When it comes to shotguns and status at the moment, if it can reach 100% status chance every pellet procs, but anything less and it might as well be 0.

you'd think there wouldn't be much difference between 100% and 90%, and with anything that only fires one bullet you'd be right, but a shotgun with 90% status and even something as low as 6 pellets, it comes out with only 30% status chance per pellet.

Now let's take the recently added Pyrana Prime; with all 4 dual stat mods, it comes up to a respectable 40.8% status chance, which would be pretty good on any other automatic, slash-based weapon.  But because the pyrana has the highest pellet count of any shotgun, in the end it only has a pitiful 7% status chance per pellet.

The mechanics of the Quartakk were changed for this very same reason, and i feel that shotguns deserve the same treatment.

but they're not completely useless.... Just impractical to build for status. 

[rapt0rman]

Ignoring the exaggerated title, I'm totally with you OP, there's no reason for them to have ever used this formula in the first place. Shotgun status should be listed and calculated per pellet, with stats adjusted where necessary.

Edited June 21, 2018 by rapt0rman

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, VeNoN said:

because is per shoot
in that one shoot u have 50% / per number of pallets
weapons like quarktak and akjaggara are not shotguns but weapons with already multyshot int them thats why are difrente

I need to point out that the quartakk was changed into simultenous burst weapon just because the shotgun status calculation is wonky. Its a bandaid fix for a problem whats here for a long time.

[Gandergear]

7 hours ago, dopey_opi said:

None.  including a Tigris Prime built for 100% status chance, unless you have a 'godly' riven.

Here's a question for you.  why are you taking an extreme case that you in all likelihood only ever experience in the Simulacrum and extrapolating that to mean a mechanic isn't functioning correctly?

My corinth can but its got a dope riven, no 100% status on it though 🙂

[(XBOX)Senpai Soul]

9 hours ago, ShiraHagane said:

When it comes to shotguns and status at the moment, if it can reach 100% status chance every pellet procs, but anything less and it might as well be 0.

you'd think there wouldn't be much difference between 100% and 90%, and with anything that only fires one bullet you'd be right, but a shotgun with 90% status and even something as low as 6 pellets, it comes out with only 30% status chance per pellet.

Now let's take the recently added Pyrana Prime; with all 4 dual stat mods, it comes up to a respectable 40.8% status chance, which would be pretty good on any other automatic, slash-based weapon.  But because the pyrana has the highest pellet count of any shotgun, in the end it only has a pitiful 7% status chance per pellet.

The mechanics of the Quartakk were changed for this very same reason, and i feel that shotguns deserve the same treatment.

Pyrana prime needs a buff I would like it to have at least 20 percent status chance

[ShiraHagane]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Senpai Soul said:

Pyrana prime needs a buff I would like it to have at least 20 percent status chance

so you want 2% status chance per pellet, I dunno, that's asking for a lot /s

[dopey_opi]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Senpai Soul said:

Pyrana prime needs a buff I would like it to have at least 20 percent status chance

 

Pyrana Prime is one of the highest DPS weapons in the game right now.  But sure let's go there.  I subjectively want it to have 3.0x crit multiplier because that's how I want to play with it, therefore DE should do what I tell them to do and up that crit multiplier, even though the weapon's already stupid strong in the first place.

Oh wait.

[(XBOX)Senpai Soul]

36 minutes ago, dopey_opi said:

 

Pyrana Prime is one of the highest DPS weapons in the game right now.  But sure let's go there.  I subjectively want it to have 3.0x crit multiplier because that's how I want to play with it, therefore DE should do what I tell them to do and up that crit multiplier, even though the weapon's already stupid strong in the first place.

Oh wait.

?? Many weapons are stronger and it does need a buff the difference between prime and regular pyrana is very small

[Thrymm]

Honestly, what's with all the obtuse commentary that completely misses the concept?

It's not like the OP doesn't have a point.  Shotguns fall into three useful categories:

1.  Has obscene damage and isn't all that worried about status(such as the Hek)

2. Capable of 100% status and that carries the gun.

3.  Does not correctly use the shotgun status model for some reason(only has one pellet or some other reason).

Guns in the top two categories are very powerful.  All the other shotguns are not(with some outliers that fall into the third).  The status calculation is the primary reason that this is the case.  A shotgun with, for example, ten pellets and a 90% status chance has a 9% non cumulative chance to inflict a status proc.  In practice, when leveled out over time based upon fire and reload rates, and average pellets striking the target at a logical distance, this is the equivalent of an assault or burst rifle having a 9% status chance.  Nobody actually wants that----imagine slotting three event mods on your assault rifle to garner approximately one status proc every ten rounds!

The simple answer is to make the math cumulative.  The pellets all register as hits/misses simultaneously enough anyway, simply use the same formula and allow the status chance to accumulate.  This would mean that a ten pellet, ninety percent chance weapon that hits with nine pellets would now yield an eighty one percent status chance, for example.

If more power for these weapons is desirable, make that cumulative chance apply per pellet, rewarding accuracy with the potential for multiple status events.  This would certainly increase shotgun power, but before declaring it over the top please consider that the maximum that it could ever deliver is exactly what you currently get with a 100% status chance shotgun anyway---powerful, but not really that bad.  But ultimately, if power is not desired, simply being able to reliably find a status proc once in awhile would be a plus in itself.

It also increases build diversity by offering reasons to toss a couple event mods on something that would otherwise not capitalize on them.  Right now your shotgun build is very simple---either place the essentials+damage, or essentials+enough status to equal 100%+damage.  A more balanced weapon becomes possible with a simple math tweak that allows a 30-50% status chance to actually yield regular status.

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Thrymm

[Cicasajt]

This is why i hate shotguns. If it cant reach 100% you better not use it, if it can you are forced to build it that way or else it turns out to be really bad. 

[(XBOX)Godlike13]

19 hours ago, Thrymm said:

Honestly, what's with all the obtuse commentary that completely misses the concept?

It's not like the OP doesn't have a point.  Shotguns fall into three useful categories:

1.  Has obscene damage and isn't all that worried about status(such as the Hek)

2. Capable of 100% status and that carries the gun.

3.  Does not correctly use the shotgun status model for some reason(only has one pellet or some other reason).

All of the Shotguns either fall into one of these categories, or have variants that fall into one of these categories. Not too mention the Hunters Munitions category. 

Edited June 22, 2018 by (XB1)Godlike13

[Buttaface]

So Arca Plasmor, Corinth, Hek, Sancti Tigris and Vaykor Hek are "bad" eh? Hmm. Who knew?

Drakgoon is not a 100% status shotgun that someone could arguably say is inferior to other options.

Name another one, not including base or starter shotguns. Name -one- more.

So is this a "buff Drakgoon" thread?

Shotguns are in a fine place atm, were the supreme ranged weapons for a long time before falloff, and falloff balances them well against other primaries.

Oh, and -no- shotgun can "one shot" lvl 150 heavy armor gunners/bombards unless you count augmented by frame powers, CP, some perfect storm riven, or waiting around for several seconds for slash procs to tick off as a "one-shot." I don't count any of that, personally, as "one shots" generally, but others may disagree of course.

[ShiraHagane]

19 hours ago, Buttaface said:

So Arca Plasmor, Corinth, Hek, Sancti Tigris and Vaykor Hek are "bad" eh? Hmm. Who knew?

Drakgoon is not a 100% status shotgun that someone could arguably say is inferior to other options.

Name another one, not including base or starter shotguns. Name -one- more.

So is this a "buff Drakgoon" thread?

Shotguns are in a fine place atm, were the supreme ranged weapons for a long time before falloff, and falloff balances them well against other primaries.

Oh, and -no- shotgun can "one shot" lvl 150 heavy armor gunners/bombards unless you count augmented by frame powers, CP, some perfect storm riven, or waiting around for several seconds for slash procs to tick off as a "one-shot." I don't count any of that, personally, as "one shots" generally, but others may disagree of course.

another one, can you read the entire post before posting?

[Buttaface]

1 hour ago, ShiraHagane said:

another one, can you read the entire post before posting?

Nah, won't bother, you made ridiculous claims in your OP, were called on it, and edited them out. Fair enough.

Even so, the "might as well be 0" comment that remains is incorrect. What you are failing to realize is that if a shotgun "only" has 90% chance of applying one status effect with each instance of firing, it will have a lesser, but still very significant chance of applying multiple status effects with each instance of firing. That's not "might as well be 0"

Shotgun status is an interesting game mechanic, is well-balanced, and is fine as is.