Here are around 13.5 pages of suggestions for melee 3.0 (yes, I have issues). Have fun!

[Ranzinzo]

Thoughts and ideas for the new melee system

Abstract

Melee combat is a core gameplay aspect of Warframe, and has gone through several iterations, making it better with each one. As the game evolves, movement changes, new abilities are presented and new technologies allow for more interesting gameplay. It is time for melee evolution to take another leap, reinventing this system.

This rework aims to remove unused aspects of melee gameplay, and introduce new and exciting ones that could shake the meta. It also aims to promote variety in combat styles, giving players new and different tools that support many ways to play.

Although some elements had to be changed and sacrificed, new additions should more than make up for it. This is not supposed to be a nerf to any kind of melee play style, but a buff to all the weaker ones.

Keep in mind that this is not an all-in package, nor a static one. If some ideas seem lackluster, weak, or just plain bad, remember that they can be changed or scrapped. Instead, try to find some idea that pleases you, or have your own after reading this, and shout it out to DE. DE already showed us that they will listen to our ideas, we just have to bring attention to them.

Part 1 - The Combos

The new default melee attacks can be divided in two categories:

1. Light Attacks (L) - fast with low damage; always silent;
2. Heavy Attacks (H) - slow with high damage; generate noise;

The damage and attack speed displayed at the Arsenal’s Upgrade page would refer to Light Attacks. To calculate Heavy Attack damage, a new stat should be added to melee weapons: Heavy Multiplier. This is the number that multiplies the regular damage in order to calculate Heavy Attack damage. Heavy Attacks can be charged up, applying the heavy multiplier multiple times, which scales the damage exponentially, but takes time and can be interrupted.

Light and Heavy Attacks are performed with different buttons. If the melee weapon is sheathed, tapping the quick melee button performs a Light Attack and holding it performs a Heavy. Light and Heavy Attacks can be combined to form combo chains.

A combo chain is composed of a streak of 2 to 4 attacks. A full chain has a total of 4 parts, with each Light Attack being 1 part and each Heavy being 2 parts. In total there are 5 different possible ways to complete a combo chain:

1. L - L - L - L
2. L - L - H
3. L - H - L
4. H - L - L
5. H - H

Every melee stance mod has 7 different types of moves, 4 Light and 3 Heavy. They can be classified as the following:

Starter (S) - Light and Heavy Starter attacks are always the first in the combo chain.

Middle (M) - Light and Heavy Middle attacks are in the middle of the combo chain.

Middle 2 (M2) - Light Middle 2 happens only in the first combo chain, after Middle.

Ender (E) - Light and Heavy Ender attacks are always the last in the combo chain.

If we revisit the previous combo chain list, now adding attack classification, we end up with the following:

1. LS - LM - LM2 - LE
2. LS - LM - HE
3. LS - HM - LE
4. HS - LM - LE
5. HS - HE

Basically, there are 2 default ways to start a combo, 2 ways to finish it, and 5 possible in between combinations. This is true for all weapons.

Each different attack move (LS, LM, LM2, LE, HS, HM and HE) not only does damage, but has a special effect associated to it. Effects are wildly different and change from stance to stance. This whole melee rework revolves around knowing the effects of your attacks and how to best combine them against each type of enemy.

The Stance page in-game should no longer list the button sequence to perform each combo, since this has been standardized. Instead it should list each different type of attack and its effects. Most stances already have bonus effects attached to some attacks, and this rework shifts the stance mechanic focus to them. The button inputs are always the same, but every attack performed has special effects.

Here are 2 examples of reworked Stance Mods:

Hammer Stance - focus on dealing damage to large crowds of enemies.

Effects:

1. LS - Briefly stuns target.
2. LM - Reduces enemy armor by half.
3. LM2 - The next combo chain has bonus attack speed.
4. LE - The next combo chain deals double damage.
5. HS - Swings horizontally in a wide arc, reflects projectiles.
6. HM - Smashes the ground, dealing cone damage and knockdown.
7. HE - Spins around hitting all nearby enemies, immune to crowd control.

Dagger Stance - focus on taking down single targets efficiently.

Effects:

1. LS - Spawns a Health Orb if slash proc or critical triggers.
2. LM - Multistrike (2), guaranteed critical on stunned enemies.
3. LM2 - Next attack on this chain has guaranteed slash proc.
4. LE - Multistrike (3), each attack deals 50% more damage.
5. HS - Briefly stuns target.
6. HM - Dashes to target with guaranteed puncture proc.
7. HE - Becomes a finisher move if target is stunned.

Multistrike means that a move strikes multiple times with a single button press. The number of strikes is displayed between parenthesis.

Everything discussed so far is related to combos used on the ground, but it is also possible to chain melee attacks in the air. Unlike ground combos, air combos have no stance and the effects are the same for all weapons:

1. LS - Refreshes the aim glide timer.
2. LM - Disarms the target and stuns flying units.
3. LM2 - Multistrike (4).
4. LE - Kicks the target down to the ground, using it as a platform to jump.
5. HS - Throws the weapon at a nearby enemy and dashes to it.
6. HM - Briefly increases evasion and reduces damage while airborne.
7. HE - Drags the target to the ground, triggering a Heavy Ground Slam on landing.

During air combos, neither Warframe or target will fall down. The game also automatically adjusts positions to avoid awkward moments of Warframe and target flying away mid combo. If the first strike lands, the others should too.

Part 2 - Beyond Combos

Beyond the combo system are the Parkour Attacks. Parkour Attacks are not part of the combo chain and aren’t affected by stances. Any additional effects they might have are passive abilities from particular weapons and/or mods. Parkour Attacks have their own Light and Heavy versions, each with slightly different mechanics.

Slide Attack - performed by using a Light or Heavy Attack while sliding or dive kicking.

• The Light version performs a dash forward, followed by a frontal attack. This frontal attack is guaranteed to stun for 3 seconds on hit.
• The Heavy version also has a dash, but shorter. While dashing, the Warframe spins with it's weapon out, damaging all enemies in a circle.

Ground Slam - performed by holding the Light or Heavy Attack button while in the air.

Both versions force the Warframe towards the ground, dealing damage upon landing. Players can aim the Ground Slam diagonally within an angle limit.

• The Light version hits only a single enemy in the landing area. Warframes can home into targets very close to the landing point. If the target is unalerted, it counts as a Stealth Finisher.
• The Heavy has a large, cone shaped area of effect. The radius and angle of the cone increase with the Heavy Multiplier (the radius can easily reach 360º). During the way down, the Warframe gains bonus Heavy Multiplier for that particular Ground Slam and its effects.

Wall Leap - performed by using a Light or Heavy Attack while on a wall.

Both versions launch the Warframe off the wall in a straight line, and both can be cancelled in mid air by blocking or rolling.

• In the Light version, the Warframe spins 3 times in mid air, damaging all enemies it passes through. This is best for mobility but doesn’t set up combos well.
• In the Heavy version, the Warframe readies it's weapon and, upon facing an enemy, delivers the hit. After that, the Warframe and it's target lose all momentum, stopping briefly in mid air and setting up for an air combo.

All Heavy moves have standardized damage. The new Heavy Multiplier stat is applied to the base damage to calculate it. This is meant to facilitate damage comprehension and eliminate excessive information on the Arsenal.

With this proposed rework, the stats listed on the arsenal should be the following:

1. Attack Speed - The value that scales attack animation speed.
2. Critical Chance - The chance to multiply damage on hit.
3. Critical Multiplier - The value that scales critical hits.
4. Damage Block - The value that reduces damage taken while blocking.
5. Heavy Multiplier - The value that scales Heavy attacks.
6. Range - The average distance the weapon can reach.
7. Riven Disposition - The general quality level of a Riven mod.
8. Status Chance - The chance to apply status effects on hit.
9. Damage - The weapon’s base damage.

This revisited list introduces information like the range and block, and removes the channeling numbers, and wall, leap and spin attacks.

The last tools in this reworked arsenal are the Special Moves and Blocking. Special Move is a new mechanic created to empower players dedicated to melee combat. Blocking works the same for all weapons mechanically, but each one has different stats.

Special Move - performed by holding both Light and Heavy Attack buttons together.

Unique to each weapon class, Special Moves have many different effects. Some weapons can use them to deal heavy damage, while others are more focused towards utility and crowd control. In order to use Special Moves, players need to fill up their Special Meter. This is a resource bar right below the combo counter that glows with your weapon’s energy color when its full. The Special Meter naturally fills up during melee combat, but skilled players can make it increase faster.

Landing all hits of a combo chain and using finisher moves are good ways to accelerate Special Meter gain. When Blocking, weapons capable of blocking more damage fill the Meter faster. The Meter does refill passively over time, but at a very slow rate.

Some Special Moves have instant effects, while others have lasting effects. In the later case, the Meter does not start refilling until the Special Move is completely over.

Here are some examples of possible Special Moves:

Earthshatter (Hammer) - Hits the ground with extreme force, damaging and knocking all nearby enemies. Shields and armor are completely destroyed.

World Wind (Heavy Blade) - Spins around for a few seconds, dealing damage to all enemies hit. The Warframe is immune to status and takes 90% less damage for the duration.

Bullet Hell (Gunblade) - Spins around shooting slow moving but extremely powerful projectiles in all directions. Projectiles deal area damage and pierce enemies.

Wind Waker (Warfans) - Sends a gust of wind forward, disarming all enemies hit and suspending them for several seconds. Nearby allies gain a movement speed buff for a few seconds.

Justice Bash (Sword and Shield) - Throws the shield, bouncing into several enemies before returning to the Warframe. Enemies hit fall asleep. When the shield returns, nearby allies gain bonus armor for a few seconds.

Special Moves deal incredibly high damage and have other amazing side effects. They are, by design, overpowered, but are balanced by the fact that, unlike most in-game abilities, they can’t be used in quick succession.

Although Special Moves are weapon class based, exalted melee weapons could have unique Moves, to make them even more special.

Block - performed by holding the specified key.

Blocking reduces damage taken on a 300º arc in front of the Warframe, leaving the other 60º as a blind spot. While blocking, Warframes strife horizontally instead of turning around, just like when aiming with firearms. This means that they will always face forward.

Under certain conditions, Blocking may not only protect the Warframe from damage, but also reflect it back to the attacker. Melee attacks reflected also stun attackers, leaving them open to finisher moves.

Dual Wield - automatically applied if the player equips single handed secondary and melee weapons.

When the player has equipped secondary and melee weapons eligible for the dual wield, just equipping the melee weapon activates the mode. In this mode players can swing the melee weapon normally. While the Warframe in Blocking, using the light attack button shoots the secondary pistol. In this mode, Block and Aim are connected. When shooting though, the Warframe becomes vulnerable for a brief time window. It's not possible to block and shoot at the same time. To go back to blocking, just stop shooting and the Warframe quickly goes back into defending himself.

Shooting guns do not interrupt combo chains, and it can be done between attacks as long as the player doesn’t take too long. Also, landing shots fill up the Super Meter a bit, filling more at headshots.

Reloading requires the full attention of the Warframe and can’t be done while attacking or blocking. All other actions that can be done while reloading are still accepted.

Part 3 - Mods and Mechanics Revisited

In order to apply all changes mentioned, changes to mods and mechanics that currently exist are required. Keep in mind that all mods listed here are considered to be at maximum rank.

Combo Counter

The combo counter no longer influences combat by any means. Instead it multiplies affinity gain. All mods that had the combo counter as a mechanic should be reworked.

The combo counter’s multiplying value grows much faster than before. Each combo chain successfully completed increases the combo counter by +0.5, up to the maximum of 10.0. Stealth Attacks no longer provide a standalone buff, but increase the combo counter by +1.0.

-Reworked Mods:

• Blood Rush

+100% Critical Chance. Doubles after each attack on the same combo chain.

The first attack of every chain has +100% critical chance. The second has +200%, the third +400% and the fourth + 800%. Bonuses reset after finishing a chain.

Current Blood Rush has a slow start but stacks into insane amounts of damage. On the other hand, this version has fast ups and downs as players complete combo chains.

• Gladiator Set

+60% Critical Chance. Doubles after each attack on the same combo chain (6/6).

The 60% value is from the complete set, meaning each single mod adds 10% to it. This effect stacks with Blood Rush for a total of 160% bonus critical chance on the first hit, and 1280% bonus on the last.

• Gladiator Rush

On melee kill: +10% Attack Speed (Max: 40%) for next combo chain.

• Body Count

On melee kill: +50% Melee Damage (Max: 200%) for next combo chain.

• Drifting Contact

On melee kill: +25% Status Chance (Max: 100%) for next combo chain.

+100% Status Duration.

Previously, the reworked versions of Gladiator Rush, Body Count and Drifting Contact had the same effect, just like in current game. This turned out to make the combined effect of the 3 mods either too powerful to play together or too weak to play individually. For balance purposes, they were reworked into three different effects.

The new effects still encourages players to keep a streak of melee kills, like their pre-rework versions. To put it in simple words: killing enemies buff the next combo chain up to 4 times, stacking the effect.

• Weeping Wounds

+25% Status Chance. Doubles after each attack on the same combo chain.

• Relentless Combination

On Slash status damage: +10% Slash Damage (Max: 200%) for next combo chain.

Channeling

Removed from the game. Channeling is an underused mechanic that has very weak mod support. The energy cost has negative synergy with Warframes that need the energy to play effectively and, aside from Life Strike, most mods are weak and their bonuses do not compensate for the energy loss. For those reasons, Channeling was completely removed from this rework, instead being replaced by Special Moves. Some channeling aspects are being incorporated on the new mechanics. All channeling mods and arcanes are being reworked as well.

-Reworked Mods:

• Corrupt Charge

+100% Melee Damage for 10 seconds after Special Move.

• Dispatch Overdrive

+30% Movement and Attack Speed for 10 seconds after Special Move.

• Enduring Affliction

+60% Status Chance and Duration on Light Attacks.

Light Attacks status procs fill the Special Meter.

• Enduring Strike

+120% Status Chance and Duration on Heavy Attacks.

Heavy Attacks status procs fill the Special Meter.

• Focus Energy

+60% Electricity.

Electricity status procs fill the Special Meter.

• Focused Defense

Blocking damage increases armor rating by up to 200% for 10 seconds.

• Killing Blow

+100% Special Move damage.

• Life Strike

+5% Life Steal. Doubles after each attack on the same combo chain.

• Parry

Reflects blocked damage.

+50% Block Rate.

+100% Reflected Damage.

• Quickening

On Light Attack: +10% Attack Speed (Max: 40%) for 10 seconds.

• Reflex Coil

Energy spent refills the Special Meter with 100% Efficiency.

• Second Wind

After Special Move, use it once more for free in the next 10 seconds.

• True Punishment

On Heavy Attack: +200% Critical Chance for the next attack.

• Warrior’s Grip

Blocking increases Melee Damage by up to 200% for the next attack.

-Reworked Arcanes:

• Exodia Brave

After a complete combo chain: +5 Energy per second for 4 seconds.

• Exodia Triumph

On Status Proc: +20% Special Move Damage (Max: 200%) for 10 seconds.

• Exodia Valor

On Critical Hit: +20% Special Move Damage (Max: 200%) for 10 seconds.

Other Reworks

• Reflex Guard

On Block: 100% Damage Block and Reflect for 1 second.

Reflex Guard is a melee mod in the Warframe’s tab. It desperately needs a rework to put it in the right place and make its effect somewhat useful. Reflex Guard is changed from a Warframe mod to a melee weapon Mod. It now works as a panic button for melee users, who are able to defend themselves during dire situations.

• Spoiled Strike

+100% Heavy Multiplier

-20% Melee Damage

Spoiled strike offers good melee damage, but is underused due to its speed penalty and the existence of more effective mods. It’s theme can be reworked to fit a new melee play style.

Part 4 - New Mods

Removing the combo counter’s damage multiplier is a heavy nerf to melee damage, which is not by any means the intention of this rework. Currently it is common to stack 3x or 4x damage in a fight, and even higher if the player is dedicated to melee. Since the idea of this rework is not to be a nerf, several mods were created in hope to balance out the loss of the combo counter. Keep in mind that all values listed are mere suggestions and, in case a mod is too strong or too weak, it can always be changed. Also, remember that even though the combo counter is gone, Special Moves were added. They aren’t a constant threat, but should be pretty overpowered when cast.

Of course, making up for the lost combo counter damage is not the only objective here. Lots, and I mean lots of new mods were created and they have several different and, sometimes, crazy effects. They also promote a huge array of play styles including Heavy Attacks, Blocking, Slide Attacks, Ground Slams, Wall Leaps, Air Combos, Special Moves, weapon swapping, combo chains, melee dedication and stealth.

I leave you with the mods list. Even if you hated the entire rework, I believe there are a few ideas to like down here. Crazy and different mods add variety to the game and open up new and exciting builds and strategies. Good feedback is always welcome, and I hope my English wasn’t too bad. Sho-la, tenno!

• Brute Force

+80% Heavy Multiplier.

Charged attacks are harder to interrupt.

• The Bear

Taking damage increases Heavy Multiplier by up to 100%.

Decays 10% per second.

• Unlikeable Anger

On knockdown: +100% Heavy Multiplier for 10 seconds.

• Half Strike

+320% Critical Chance. Halves after each attack on the same combo chain.

• Refreshed Strike

On Health Orb pick: +100% Melee Damage for the next attack.

• Breathing Window

+25% Melee Damage (Max: 200%) per second when not attacking for the next attack.

• Twin Attack

On Heavy Attack: +100% Melee Damage for the next attack.

• What Doesn't Kill You

Blocking damage increases health regeneration by up to 50 per second for 10 seconds.

• Kinetic Rocket

Blocking damage increases the next Bullet Jump by up to 100%.

• Igniting Pump

Blocking damage increases Attack and Movement Speed by up to 20% for 10 seconds.

• Watch Tower

Blocking damage reveals weak spots on nearby enemies.

• Vigor Thief

Blocking damage increases energy regeneration by up to 20 per second for 10 seconds.

• Great Escape

Blocking damage increases the next Slide Attack damage by up to 200%.

• Allowed Reaping

Heavy Slide Attacks swings 3 times for 60% damage each.

• Grand Entrance

On Slide Attack: +20% Melee Damage (Max: 200%) per enemy hit for the next combo chain.

• Momentum Crescendo

On every third Slide Attack: +200% Attack Range.

• Sinking Spin

Heavy Slide Attacks pull ammo and resources to the Warframe.

• Land Torpedo

+100% Light Slide Attack Damage.

+20% Slide

-20% Friction.

• Stored Momentum

On Light Ground Slam: +50% to Bullet Jump for the next one.

+50% Ground Slam Damage.

• Pogo Strike (Staves)

On Light Ground Slam: launches the Warframe into the air.

+50% Ground Slam Damage.

• Leap of Faith

On Light Ground Slam: marks nearby enemies on the map and reveals their weak spots.

+50% Ground Slam Damage.

• Blink Fall

On Light Ground Slam: teleports the Warframe to the landing point.

+50% Ground Slam Damage.

• Burning Meteor

On Heavy Ground Slam: gains Fire Damage for 10 seconds based on Heavy Multiplier.

• Living Artillery

On Heavy Ground Slam: bombard the area with explosions based on Heavy Multiplier.

• Slamming Blight

On Heavy Ground Slam: summon hostile grounds in the area based on the weapon’s element.

• Aftershock

On Heavy Ground Slam: mark landing location for an explosion dealing 100% damage 3 seconds later.

• Essence Uplift

On Heavy Ground Slam: spawn Health and Energy Orbs around the area of effect (10 seconds cooldown).

• Compression Fault

On Heavy Ground Slam: create a wall of rocks ahead of the point of impact (10 seconds cooldown).

• There & Back

After Light Wall Attack: dashes to a nearby wall.

+50% Wall Attack Damage.

• Bungee Jab

On Light Wall Attack: dashes back to the launching point after 3 seconds.

+50% Wall Attack Damage.

• Clear Skies

On Light Wall Attack: stuns all flying units near the attack’s path.

+50% Wall Attack Damage.

• Arial Superiority

On Heavy Wall Attack hit: +30% Attack Speed for the next combo chain.

Stunt Double

On Heavy Wall Attack: sends a ghost form instead of the Warframe. If the ghost hits, the Warframe is teleported to it.

• Martial Ascension

On Air Melee Attack: Warframe and target rise up.

+100% Melee Damage while airborne.

• Skylord

+100% Range to Air Heavy Starter Attack.

+100% Heavy Multiplier while airborne.

• Collector

Energy Orbs fill the Super Meter.

On Energy Orb pick: +5% Movement Speed (Max: 20%) for 10 seconds.

• Early Bird

On melee unsheath: +150% Melee damage for 10 seconds (30 seconds cooldown).

• Slow Start

-50% Melee Damage.

+1% Melee Damage (Max: 250%) per second while melee is unsheathed.

• Haunting Vengeance

On Death: +30% Melee Damage for the rest of the mission.

• Skillful Regency

+160% Melee Damage.

On Death: -40% Melee Damage for the rest of the mission.

• White Belt

+20% Critical Damage for each unused mod slot on the weapon.

• Black Belt

+15% Critical Damage for each polarized mod slot on the weapon.

• Giant Slayer

On Melee Attack: deal 5% of the enemy’s maximum health as bonus damage.

Affected by Heavy Multiplier.

• Highlander

+200% Melee Damage.

-10% Melee Damage per nearby enemy.

• Hit & Run

After a complete combo chain: +50% Movement Speed for 10 seconds or until attack or ability cast.

• Diverse Arsenal

+100% Critical Chance for each different combo chain completed in a row.

To better explain the effect above, for every different combo chain completed the Warframe gains 100% Critical Chance. Since there are 5 different combinations of attacks, Warframes can gain up to 500% Critical Chance on the sixth one. If all previous 5 chains were different, the sixth has got to be the same as one of those, thus reseting the effect.

• Fast and then Furious

On melee kill: +20% Heavy Multiplier (Max: 80%) for the next combo chain.

• Pain Battery

On melee kill: +40% Critical Chance and Damage (Max: 160%) for the next combo chain.

• Assassin’s Hunger

When undetected: +20% Melee Damage (Max: 200%) per second for the next attack.

• Stalking Prey

When undetected: reveals enemy weak spots every 3 seconds.

• Knockout

On Stealth Attack: target falls asleep for 30 seconds. It wakes up unalerted.

• Greedy Dispatch

On Stealth Attack kill: 100% chance to drop additional loot.

• Shadow Strider

On Stealth Attack kill: becomes invisible for 5 seconds or until attack or ability cast.

• Blood Sucker

+10% Lifesteal on Finisher Moves.

• Gory Strike

On Finisher Move kill: spawns 5 Health Orbs.

• Horrific Death

On Finisher Move kill: scares all nearby enemies for 10 seconds.

• Like Water

On Secondary Weapon hit: +100% Melee Damage for the next attack.

• Dexterity Display

On Melee Attack: Reloads 10% of Secondary Weapon magazine.

• Deadly Precision

On Finisher Move kill: +500% headshot damage for the next Secondary Weapon shot.

• Sent Regards

On melee kill: +30% Secondary Weapon Damage (Max: 120%) for 10 seconds.

• Counter Strike

Blocking increases Secondary Weapon Damage for up to 200% for 10 seconds.

[WeoroldWuldor]

I'm sorry but it is too long to read 😞

I'm sorry because I see that you have sacrificed your time and effort to write all these.

Edited June 22, 2018 by -_-DaRXoS-_-
The sacrifice

[(XBOX)RPColten]

Neat.

[Kylo.]

Right.

[Autongnosis]

I like the general idea, only point being that i'd elaborate on how the attacks interact with groups of enemies becaus eyou touched that very marginally.

New mods sound very fun and imho i'd make them scale slower but keep the bonus through combo "chains" by allowing one combo to chain unto another unto another unto another etc... a la Dynasty Warrior / Legacy of Kain Defiance.

[JudgeXion]

This makes melee look really intresting, I hope DE takes some ideas from this.

[peterc3]

This requires throwing out all existing stances, no?

[Ranzinzo]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

This requires throwing out all existing stances, no?

They all would have to be reworked, yes. But it wouldn't actually change gameplay a whole lot. What makes one stance better than other is

A: its ability to hit multiple enemies consistenly and at a fast pace.

B: special effects attached to attacks like automatic ground slams or status procs.

As long as those are kept, people wouldn't even have to change their play style or builds at all. The most important and hardest work would be to separate all animations into standalone attacks and make it possible to interchange them. In my rework, each new stance has 7 moves. I belive that most in-game stances have at least that amount of different animated attacks. If one stance has too few, it can get new ones from stances that have too many. Also, if there are way more attack animations than my rework can handle, the Multistrike mechanic allows devs to put lots of animations into a single button press.

I believe this task is way harder at internal programming than external design. Making sure animations flow into each other can't be easy.

[DrBorris]

I am okay with this.

My personal biggest worry about DE's concept for Melee 3.0 is that it was oversimplified, this brings complexity without the annoyances of the current melee system. 

[Ranzinzo]

21 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I am okay with this.

My personal biggest worry about DE's concept for Melee 3.0 is that it was oversimplified, this brings complexity without the annoyances of the current melee system. 

I tried to create mechanics and mods that are potentially complex, but don't have to be.

There are a lot of utility mods, mods that require strategy, quick thinking and game knowledge overall. But that are other ones that support one button spam combat. Although I like more thoughtful combat, my intention is to make all options equally viable. I think something very important in Warframe is how much of our personality we project onto it, since customization is in almost all parts of the game. Combat style should be no exeption. If you like complex combos and theory crafting, you should be able to play just like that.

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, Ranzinzo said:

They all would have to be reworked, yes. But it wouldn't actually change gameplay a whole lot. What makes one stance better than other is

A: its ability to hit multiple enemies consistenly and at a fast pace.

B: special effects attached to attacks like automatic ground slams or status procs.

As long as those are kept, people wouldn't even have to change their play style or builds at all. The most important and hardest work would be to separate all animations into standalone attacks and make it possible to interchange them. In my rework, each new stance has 7 moves. I belive that most in-game stances have at least that amount of different animated attacks. If one stance has too few, it can get new ones from stances that have too many. Also, if there are way more attack animations than my rework can handle, the Multistrike mechanic allows devs to put lots of animations into a single button press.

I believe this task is way harder at internal programming than external design. Making sure animations flow into each other can't be easy.

Reworked in this context means redone. You can't rework a stance. Gameplay is irrelevant given the insane amount of currently done work that would have to be thrown out to enable this. You can't just put pieces of stances together and have a good whole. They are designed to work together to define a style of using a weapon.

This is a huge amount of work for a system that isn't the focus of the game. This is not a melee game. This is a game with a melee system. OP's suggestion doesn't mesh with the actual point of melee in the game.

[Ranzinzo]

51 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Reworked in this context means redone. You can't rework a stance. Gameplay is irrelevant given the insane amount of currently done work that would have to be thrown out to enable this. You can't just put pieces of stances together and have a good whole. They are designed to work together to define a style of using a weapon.

 This is a huge amount of work for a system that isn't the focus of the game. This is not a melee game. This is a game with a melee system. OP's suggestion doesn't mesh with the actual point of melee in the game.

Combat is the focus of the game, and it has 3 pillars: abilities, firearms and melee. You can't just dismiss one of them as less important than the others.

Gameplay is never irrelevant. Think about the amount of work that had to be thrown out from the transition of parkour 1.0 to 2.0, yet they did. DE has also thrown away UI, many times. Even an entire original resource, stamina, was scrapped. DE already showed us that they are willing to work hard and change a lot of things if it is for the best.

Is it a lot of work? Yes. But they would not be starting from zero. Stances are designed in animation pieces that work together in a defined sequence, but they are still pieces. You can see this in game right now. Most stances have combos that start exactly the same, but branch out into two or more different combos. Some animations are already designed to lead into multiple moves. I'm not suggesting that all moves from all stances should be randomly reassigned. When I mentioned mixing moves from different stances, I was refering to very particular cases where a reworked stance might need one or two moves and other stance happened to have one to spare, and this one particular move ends up fitting the first stance. This is like, a very convenient and particular situation, but is not impossible.

In case there aren't enough animations per stance across the table to support my suggestion, it is always possible to tweak the combo inputs to reduce the number of different attacks per stance. Ideally there would be no need to create new animations from scratch, just tweak some of the moves so they can lead into 2 or 3 different out comes.

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, Ranzinzo said:

You can't just dismiss one of them as less important than the others.

Yes, I can. DE clearly does. If this were more Devil May Cry, then sure, your suggestion has legs. Frames and their abilities are the first thing people will notice in combat. Explosions, waves of energy, black tendrils grabbing enemies. Next are the things that you point at distant targets and watch as they and everything near and behind them are erased. Lastly are the sticks of indeterminate length that, until recently, sliced and diced everything within a lightyear of whatever you were swinging at.

1 hour ago, Ranzinzo said:

Think about the amount of work that had to be thrown out from the transition of parkour 1.0 to 2.0, yet they did.

Parkour affects everyone from first-day to thousands of hours in. Every single frame is able to do the same moves and require little to no individual tuning to have them do the same moves and it appear to be the same thing.

1 hour ago, Ranzinzo said:

DE has also thrown away UI, many times.

I use the UI whether I am walking around my Orbiter or flying through a trench to the reactor of a Corpus ship or choosing from red and slightly darker red.

1 hour ago, Ranzinzo said:

Even an entire original resource, stamina, was scrapped.

This isn't even remotely the same thing. Compared to the animation work, this is the equivalent of changing a variable from True to False.

1 hour ago, Ranzinzo said:

Stances are designed in animation pieces that work together in a defined sequence, but they are still pieces.

That begin and end with the general assumption that the next and previous piece are meeting it at the same point. They aren't designed to be modular outside the same stance. 

[Azamagon]

@Ranzinzo

While I may not agreed with everything you have suggested, I must give you an A+ for the great effort and amazing creativity!

One particular thing I'd like to point out that I liked:
Light slide attack = Distance closing single target CC-attack
Heavy slide attack = AoE attack

Such kind of "practical simplicity" can allow for some very nice on-the-spot choices. I really, really like that kind of design!
Not to mention, it could allow for some simple-yet-cool animations, like: Light Fists/Claws = Dashing uppercut or downward punch, Heavy Fists/Claws = Spinning lariat, or doublehanded horizontal hammerfist (not fitting for Claws though). Light Sparring = Current flip axekick, or whatever cool-looking kick/knee/punch/combo-of-attacks dash or leap-attack, Heavy Sparring = Spinning sweepkick.

Question though: What about attacks like the Glaive throw and Gunblade shot? Are those scrapped in your system? Or are those kept by, say, holding the light attack?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

First off. Remove that mega thread tag. Only mods and the developers have the right to use that.

[Ranzinzo]

15 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Parkour affects everyone from first-day to thousands of hours in. Every single frame is able to do the same moves and require little to no individual tuning to have them do the same moves and it appear to be the same thing.

The same can be said about weapons (all of them). The only real difference between animations on weapon are the idles, which have zero gameplay effect.

15 hours ago, peterc3 said:

I use the UI whether I am walking around my Orbiter or flying through a trench to the reactor of a Corpus ship or choosing from red and slightly darker red.

So you are saying that they invested time and money to rework a system that has no effect in actual gameplay more than once? Why wouldn't they do this for a system that heavily impacts gameplay?

15 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This isn't even remotely the same thing. Compared to the animation work, this is the equivalent of changing a variable from True to False.

Removing the stamina may be easy in the programming side, but you can't just erase such a core mechanic deisgn wise without consequences. The game was built with stamina in mind, and suddendly it was gone. PvP, for example, took a heavy toll by the loss of stamina. That has a cost in time and money. Specially because it was an early development mechanic. Stakes were way higher back then.

15 hours ago, peterc3 said:

That begin and end with the general assumption that the next and previous piece are meeting it at the same point. They aren't designed to be modular outside the same stance. 

I'm repeating myself here. The idea is NOT to mix different moves from different stances. IF there is a move that by sheer luck fits a second stance that needs it, and only if that happens, than that move could be transfered. That's what I meant. That's the exception. The main rule would be that moves stay in the original stance.

And if it proves to be impossible to create a modular combo system due to time and cost, just take the 5 modular combos and turn into 3 static ones. One Light, one Heavy and one mixed. That would require very little tweaking and new animations, since most stances already have 2 or 3 combos. Problem solved. The core aspect of my suggestions are not the modular combos. That was just a cool part that, if implemented, would allow for more combo variety. The core aspect is having two different attacks in two different buttons forming combo chains that are standardized amongst all weapons. Removing that destroys all my suggestions, removing modular combos really doesn't.

[RobRalneR]

Very interesting ideas you got there!

Hope DE takes notes from this.

[Ranzinzo]

On 2018-06-23 at 7:21 AM, Azamagon said:

@Ranzinzo

While I may not agreed with everything you have suggested, I must give you an A+ for the great effort and amazing creativity!

One particular thing I'd like to point out that I liked:
Light slide attack = Distance closing single target CC-attack
Heavy slide attack = AoE attack

Such kind of "practical simplicity" can allow for some very nice on-the-spot choices. I really, really like that kind of design!
Not to mention, it could allow for some simple-yet-cool animations, like: Light Fists/Claws = Dashing uppercut or downward punch, Heavy Fists/Claws = Spinning lariat, or doublehanded horizontal hammerfist (not fitting for Claws though). Light Sparring = Current flip axekick, or whatever cool-looking kick/knee/punch/combo-of-attacks dash or leap-attack, Heavy Sparring = Spinning sweepkick.

Question though: What about attacks like the Glaive throw and Gunblade shot? Are those scrapped in your system? Or are those kept by, say, holding the light attack?

Thanks for your support! I'm glad you liked that slide idea.

I did not mention this, but Glaives and Gunblades shots are bound to the heavy attacks on their combos. Light attacks are the melee slashes, and the heavy ones are the ranged shots. Shots and throws can be used mid combo just like any heavy attack.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Gib gunblade! That is all. 

[Teridax68]

There is so much to like in this proposal. I'm a big fan of the light/heavy attack split, as well as the ability to mix and match between them, and I love the idea of standardizing comboes down to the same, simple set of inputs for every weapon. Melee attacks should look cool without having to think too much about them, but mastering combos themselves I think should be about choosing the right move for the right situation, not memorizing a list of button presses outside of combat. A great deal many of the new/reworked mod suggestions also seem fantastic. Overall, this proposed melee rework could make melee combat a lot cleaner and more fluid, while adding in tons more opportunities for cool gameplay.

Here's what little criticism I have:

• I'm not entirely the biggest fan of making heavy attacks count as two light attacks, and I personally feel it may be simpler to just have a starter, middle and ender attack for both sets, and have the combo operate in three attacks at all times. My fear is that, while having a heavy attack count as two attacks may make sense on paper, it may not turn out so intuitive in practice, as you'd then have irregularities in the number of moves when switching from light to heavy attacks. Also, the number three tends to work well on an instinctive level for encapsulated sets of actions, more so than two or four.
• I'm a bit on the fence regarding special moves: on one hand, the idea of unleashing a super-powered ability with a weapon, especially a melee weapon, sounds amazing, but I question whether adding such an ability-like effect would begin to compete with a warframe's own kit, in terms of the attention it would draw from the player. One subtle thing that the special moves do, though, which I think is absolutely brilliant on the OP's part, is that it preserves the gameplay of the current combo meter (i.e. attack continuously for more melee power), while delivering that kind of power in much more visible and fun moments.

Both of these criticisms are, ultimately, more a matter of my own personal opinion than anything to do with the proposal itself, and the list of suggestions here is both well-structured and fully internally consistent. The OP makes an excellent post, and I think its suggestions deserve a lot more attention and more in-depth discussion.