Umbra's issues with Transference (incompatibility with Operator mode)

[SteveCutler]

This is starting to get really annoying, and I hope these issues will get fixed soon:

1. The biggest issue is that when you switch to operator mode, Excalibur Umbra immediately turns off Exalted Blade.

This is incredibly annoying, especially if you're popping in and out of operator mode frequently. Need to safely revive your squad mate that keeps dying every few minutes? Goodbye Exalted Blade. Need to Void Dash across a large area? Goodbye Exalted Blade. Need to clear a Spy vault? Goodbye Exalted Blade. Need to support your teammates with Energizing Dash or Protective Dash? Goodbye Exalted Blade.

This issue causes wasted time re-activating Exalted Blade every single time you use Transference. It also requires the user to throw energy away paying the activation cost for Exalted Blade, again and again and again... Even worse, if the player is using Energy Conversion or Growing Power, they need to waste even more time re-proccing these abilities before they can re-activate Exalted Blade!

This situation can be resolved in a couple of different ways. Firstly, Umbra's AI could simply never change weapon. Just keep using whatever weapon the player left Umbra with. That would give the player more control over the AI. The other possibility is to just make Umbra refuse to turn off Exalted Blade for at least 10-20 seconds after Transference. That would at least give players a chance to use their operator quickly without losing Exalted Blade.

2. The next issue is that Transference is still somewhat buggy, and can cause the player to fall out of the map entirely.

One of the recent patches helped a lot to fix the issues of the camera spinning around, or the player getting teleported to the frame instead of the other way around. At least, it seems improved on my end. However, instead I keep falling out of the map when I switch back from my operator to the Umbra frame. It's incredibly annoying when I'm frequently using my operator to help out in a mission (reviving people, dropping energy bubbles, etc.), just to get teleported out of the map afterwards.

3. Finally, Umbra's AI still interferes with stealth gameplay and Spy vaults.

Umbra's AI causes it to just run around wildly, even when you don't want it to. Spy vaults are best cleared using the operator, and with any other frame this works perfectly fine. Umbra is the only one that interferes, because it has a mind of its own.

My suggestion to solve this is to simply add an interaction prompt on Umbra, so that we can tell it to either hold its position or follow, similar to what we can already do with allies in Syndicate missions. This would let us leave Umbra outside Spy vaults.

Edited June 28, 2018 by SteveCutler

[Koldraxon-732]

I agree with your point about Exalted and how Umbra fails to realize he has a secondary weapon on his person, and that he needs to be able to be instructed to stay still (especially when trying to 2-man that one Lua Challenge that has you standing on pads).

However, there's a bug with his Exalted Blade right now that, if you leave it on when it's about to turn off and go out of him, when you return you are unable to use your secondary or melee (quick-melee is forcibly turned into Exalted Blade and all powers except 5 do not work; activating 4 again causes Umbra to lock up and be unable to shoot or do anything but parkour about).

Not to mention his forearm crescent U-things need their attachment points fixed ASAP.

[SteveCutler]

Bump. This is still an issue as of the 23.0.6 patch.

[mactrent]

On 2018-06-23 at 9:00 AM, SteveCutler said:

3. Finally, Umbra's AI still interferes with stealth gameplay and Spy vaults.

Umbra seems like a cross between syndicate operative and pet AIs.  The "hold position" mechanic might cheapen him a bit, but if he waited outside vaults like some pets already do, that'd be pretty handy.  Only downside to leaving him somewhere is it's worse if he goes down than if your pet does, but that's gonna be the case anyway.

On 2018-06-23 at 9:00 AM, SteveCutler said:

1. The biggest issue is that when you switch to operator mode, Excalibur Umbra immediately turns off Exalted Blade.

The Exalted Blade issue is a specter AI problem in general - they don't have the same energy management system we do, we can't set their "preferred" weapons, and the AI wasn't generally written for your warframe to use, just as secondary helpers.  Even Equinox's Duality clone doesn't use abilities, though I don't know if she keeps your active weapon or not.

Perhaps we'll get some smarter and more customizeable AIs as a result of the work in Pets 2.0?

[SteveCutler]

The 23.0.7 patch claims to fix one of these issues (teleporting through floors when using Transference). That's great news. However, the other issues still remain.

3 hours ago, mactrent said:

The "hold position" mechanic might cheapen him a bit, but if he waited outside vaults like some pets already do, that'd be pretty handy.

I'd be fine with that solution.

[SteveCutler]

Unfortunately, the 23.0.8 patch does not include any fixes.

[Kalvorax]

On 2018-06-23 at 7:00 AM, SteveCutler said:

1. The biggest issue is that when you switch to operator mode, Excalibur Umbra immediately turns off Exalted Blade.

it sadly makes sense due to umbra using Specter AI....excal Specters arent allowed to even use exalted blade (many frames cant use their 4th as a specter...which is utterly stupid).

so until they do a specter AI rework (if it ever happens) none of these things will get fixed.

[Thaerath]

Just to add what I noticed, the Magus Nourish Arcane seems to be bugged to, not activating it when you are in Operator Mode. I suppose, but this requires tests, that it's the same for other Arcanes with similar effects. 

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

On 2018-06-23 at 9:00 AM, SteveCutler said:

The other possibility is to just make Umbra refuse to turn off Exalted Blade for at least 10-20 seconds after Transference. That would at least give players a chance to use their operator quickly without losing Exalted Blade.

I'm quoting this to highlight how much of a great idea this is. I don't know how hard it would be to change the Specter AI but let ones that have a channeled ability use it for 10-20 seconds at a crack would be the best thing since sliced bread.

Edited July 18, 2018 by (XB1)Skippy575

[AtrusStrix]

I agree with issue one needing to be adressed, but your third seems pretty nitpicking to me. Most people run specialized load-outs for spy missions with no pets, no sentinel weapons, silent weapons, daggers and/or stealth based frames.

The umbra frames are themed around their transference passive, so just bring a different frame if you're running spy missions. Warframe is a game based around bringing the right tool for the job, and not ever frame is going to be good for doing every mission type. You can't even make the excuse of it being your only frame because anybody should at least have two frames, if not many more by the time they get Excalibur Umbra.

[SteveCutler]

1 minute ago, AtrusStrix said:

Most people run specialized load-outs for spy missions with no pets, no sentinel weapons, silent weapons, daggers and/or stealth based frames.

Do you have a source for that? From my experience, most people either use operator mode for Spy vaults, or whatever random frame they want to use. Of course, everyone is different and will run into different people online, so your experience might be different, but it doesn't match up with mine. I would also argue that operator mode already is one of the best tools for the job.

[AtrusStrix]

Most people I know who farm spy vaults for plat usually use frames like Ivara or Loki because they can make running most vaults much faster.

If you're using operator, why can't you just leave Umbra outside the vault? I've never personally run excalumbra in spy missions but, everywhere else I've used him he stays relatively in the the same place. Does he try and follow you when you use him?

[Uhkretor]

Just to point it out, Umbra's AI is the most useful for me when I'm hammering Eidolons... But that's my example. I can't comment on how annoying it is on Spy missions simply because I don't use Operator mode unless...

 

... its an Eidolon...

 

... Or quest related activity that makes sense to use it, excluding plot forced usage... Which I'm yet to find a serious one, sadly. But I could go with a "Hold/Follow" command like syndicate units have... Hell, I could "slide down the mountain PoE style" with that for everyone's stupid pets rather than Umbra itself, mine included. Just the number of times those blocked projectile shots that are meant to kill an enemy simply because the pet is "along the path" of the projectile...

Edited July 18, 2018 by Uhkretor

[BloodKitten]

i just use ivara for spy missions with the agument to ignore lasers while on prawl, i dont use operator mode for it.

[Chara]

I have my own thread, but I'm bumping this one too. Magus Elevate becomes trashed with this issue since I have to keep re-casting, and I'm tired of it.
 

 

[Saxfire]

There are also methods of gaining invincibility by spamming operator as a client, and invisibility (enemies will no longer try to kill you no matter what you do, and your health cannot drop below 2? even if you take it to the face from bombards or traps or something) I think umbra is only useful for letting him play the game for you, since there is also a chance that switching into operator will not switch to operator but the AI will take over, you can still shoot and switch weapons while your soul is inside him, but you cannot control the frame.(you effectively turn into a sidegunner, he will use his weapons just fine, but you can also use the separate copies of the weapons he is using)

another thing that can also happen is you will be given permanent exalted blade that costs no energy to use, and on top of that, invincibility.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Saxfire

[MikeyColeman281]

I recently have been experimenting infusing abilities from other frames on to Umbra with the helminth segment.  After not being able to play him for several months (due to falling through the map on deimos isolation vaults)  Im starting to notice something else about transferrence with Umbra that is very for lack of a better term...annoying as hell.  When I transfer out of him then void dash, then transfer back into him, It seems to be that I end up where he is at that time rather than he ending up where I am.  I use operator alot with my playstyle and Excaliber is one of my favorite frames due to his simplicity and powerful abilities (except for slash dash).  Also, when using a helminth ability that gives umbra a buff, transferrence causes him to lose that buff with no refund of energy expended for it.  This is similar to the problem he has with exalted blade.  Umbra will put away his signature weapon only to use the primary weapon, turning very slowly and only using melee after being attacked from close range.  If Umbra is indeed "a frame like no other"  why then does he behave like any other generic specter we can craft after a rescue mission?