Weapon Balance Is Needed To Have More Diversity

[i6n0r4n7e-2.0]

From where i come "Battlefield Play 4 Free" there was a lot of weapons to chose for each class:

-Assault

-Engineer

-Medic

-Recon

And each class have 3 or 4 weapons that makes obsolete in every aspect to all the other weapons. When you join a map of 32 players (16 vs 16), 3 or 5 players wasn't using the OP weapons (OverPowered), because those players and i dont like to play with stuff that need to be fixed/balanced.

 

Now in this game, when you play on line there is 3 kind of weapons that almost 60% of players are using: Orthos, Kunai (and similar) and Boltor. But why almost all of the players are using those weapons? because they are the best? because they are super? or because they are OP?

 

A player that use an OP stuff will never admit that what he is using is OP, he will say "no, my things are not OP", "you are jealous of my weapons" or "you say that because you can't get it" (even when anybody can have any weapon, except 2 or 3).

 

 

In Battlefield Play 4 Free when the Developpers was releasing a new weapon, it will be way better than all the others existing. If there was a weapont that have the maximun damage, the new will beat it, the same will happen with the accuracy, capacity and handling.

That is a sell tactic that they use to farm money, because almost all the players that whant to have the "best/last/op" will buy it. And in a few months they release a new one better than the last one, and yes, almost all the players buy it.

 

Now, returning to Warframe, they are doing almost the same with the last thing they release (not with the farming thing, but with the stats of the new things).

Acording to the last 2 warframes Vauban and Nova, the new warframe will be like Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen or even worst, it can be like Chuck Norris with a warframe suit with the name of Necro O_O

 

 

Balanced weapons and balanced warframes are needed to have diversity and not 5 or 6 things of 40 (for example)

[Cpl_Facehugger]

But how does the fact that DE is currently going back and buffing old frames to the new standard fit into this narrative?

[Althix]

i am using Braton and it's OP.

[Trollin4ThePrimes]

Balance? This is Warframe...there is no such thing. 

[Clavicus]

So you say that, if they release weapons that are always better than the older ones, that will increase diversity among loadouts used by players? You are saying that most players use the same equipment, and to solve that, the DE should always release new stuff that makes the previous items obsolete... Like you said it yourself, people will just switch to the new weapons, that's not increasing diversity. Yeah, some items and warframes might still need tweaking, I haven't used all of the weapons or warframes, so I can't really say much, but as far as I know, they have been working on balance, I started playing 4 months ago, and A LOT changed since then, and I'm sure there will be more changes coming.

[Vaskadar]

Balance? This is Warframe...there is no such thing.

No, but really, diversity/balance is roles. One thing should be better than the other at X and worse at Y.

Sorry, OP, but you've not really provided any new insight as to why these weapons are incredibly strong. The reasons being is that they are very good because of their armor ignoring properties. Once armor scaling changes, people may branch out to other, more interesting builds, but until then it's Armor Ignore All the Things.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Vaskadar

[PeripheralVisionary]

I'm up for weapon tiering and balancing weapons in the same tier.

It's quite tiresome when everyone in t3 defense or some other mission is wielding an Acrid.

[TheDoctah]

Milter is new and it comes off to be pretty crappy at the moment if you ask me.

[Ganpot]

Milter is new and it comes off to be pretty crappy at the moment if you ask me.

 

Don't worry, the Sobek and almost all clan weapons were the same way.  It'll be buffed to near god-mode levels soon enough. 

 

 

I'm up for weapon tiering and balancing weapons in the same tier.

It's quite tiresome when everyone in t3 defense or some other mission is wielding an Acrid.

 

The problem with weapon tiers in any game is that, at some point, no one is going to be using the bottom 90% of the weapons anymore.  So what is the point of those weapons if no one uses them?  That's exactly what is happening right now.  The Orthos, Kunai/Despair, and Acrid are all top-tier.  So 90% of the player-base is using them all the time, because they've gotten enough materials to build them.  Now those players don't ever have to build other secondaries or melee weapons, because nothing will ever come close to being as good. 

[Qynchou]

Don't worry, the Sobek and almost all clan weapons were the same way.  It'll be buffed to near god-mode levels soon enough. 

 

 

 

The problem with weapon tiers in any game is that, at some point, no one is going to be using the bottom 90% of the weapons anymore.  So what is the point of those weapons if no one uses them?  That's exactly what is happening right now.  The Orthos, Kunai/Despair, and Acrid are all top-tier.  So 90% of the player-base is using them all the time, because they've gotten enough materials to build them.  Now those players don't ever have to build other secondaries or melee weapons, because nothing will ever come close to being as good. 

Weapon f****ing powers. Thats how you make the bottom tier usable. How many god damn times do I have to post this rofl.

[i6n0r4n7e-2.0]

The problem with weapon tiers in any game is that, at some point, no one is going to be using the bottom 90% of the weapons anymore.  So what is the point of those weapons if no one uses them?  That's exactly what is happening right now.  The Orthos, Kunai/Despair, and Acrid are all top-tier.  So 90% of the player-base is using them all the time, because they've gotten enough materials to build them.  Now those players don't ever have to build other secondaries or melee weapons, because nothing will ever come close to being as good. 

And why the other weapons then? why they dont erase all the other and leave just the most used? if they do that the players will dont know about it.

 

I dont know why the developpers lost time making meshes, textures, sound, etc of 20 or 30 weapons if they will make a SUPREME WEAPON that make players use only one of each class :S

[Ganpot]

Weapon f****ing powers. Thats how you make the bottom tier usable. How many god damn times do I have to post this rofl.

 

Well, I guess if you're into that sort of stuff.  It sounds kind of painful to me though. 

[aezeldafan]

Don't worry, the Sobek and almost all clan weapons were the same way.  It'll be buffed to near god-mode levels soon enough. 

 

 

 

The problem with weapon tiers in any game is that, at some point, no one is going to be using the bottom 90% of the weapons anymore.  So what is the point of those weapons if no one uses them?  That's exactly what is happening right now.  The Orthos, Kunai/Despair, and Acrid are all top-tier.  So 90% of the player-base is using them all the time, because they've gotten enough materials to build them.  Now those players don't ever have to build other secondaries or melee weapons, because nothing will ever come close to being as good. 

by kunai/despair, did you also include haikou in that equation? it may not hit as hard, but I can down an ancient before anyone else with it, since it is so fast.

at the very least, it keeps up with most other pistols.

 

If there were a change to armor ignore, I would hope that it would affect enemies without armor. i.e. ancients, etc. Make em hard to kill. meh, anyway, just my two cents. I like my sobek, haikou, gram. because it's a run and gun build. I reload sobek in between confrontations, and switch to the haikou (which are better atm anyway imo) and go to town

 

In addition to balance though, I would like to see a tougher tier of enemy.

[Eirshy]

inb4 full damage system rework

 

Was promised last livestream.

 

The problem right now is armor scaling basically makes you have to use an armor-ignoring weapon to be able to do anything good late-game.

 

You see more variety at m6+ because most of us over that mastery level have enough mods and/or skill to at least make other weapons viable, and/or have one of the four good snipers fully tricked out (Lanka, Snidal, Paris Prime, Dread (though falls off late game)).

 

Balancing is hard to do when you know there's a damage system rework coming Soon.

[Qynchou]

inb4 full damage system rework

 

Was promised last livestream.

 

The problem right now is armor scaling basically makes you have to use an armor-ignoring weapon to be able to do anything good late-game.

 

You see more variety at m6+ because most of us over that mastery level have enough mods and/or skill to at least make other weapons viable, and/or have one of the four good snipers fully tricked out (Lanka, Snidal, Paris Prime, Dread (though falls off late game)).

 

Balancing is hard to do when you know there's a damage system rework coming Soon.

Define endgame.

[Eirshy]

Define endgame.

 

Never said endgame. Said late-game. Late-Game = T3 Void.

 

T3 Void is also effectively shorthand for "lv60+ enemies of any faction".

 

 

You could argue for Nightmare Mode, but until they let you see what you're getting before you start the run, Nightmare Mode is a huge charlie foxtrot of fake difficulty and I refuse to recognize it as something I should even bother with until that changes.

 

 

 

End-game doesn't exist in this game yet.

Edited August 20, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Depar]

Well the main thing about comparing Battlefield an Waframe Balancing is,

PVE vs PVP . .

 

and like yell above me said there is no endgame we could balance around

[i6n0r4n7e-2.0]

Well the main thing about comparing Battlefield an Waframe Balancing is,

PVE vs PVP . .

I know about that, but i was comparing the need of weapon balance.

 

As i said before:

I dont know why the developpers lost time making meshes, textures, sound, etc of 20 or 30 weapons if they will make a WEAPON that make obsolete all the rest.

Edited August 20, 2013 by i6n0r4n7e-2.0

[Eirshy]

I know about that, but i was comparing the need of weapon balance.

 

As i said before:

I dont know why the developpers lost time making meshes, textures, sound, etc of 20 or 30 weapons if they will make a WEAPON that make obsolete all the rest.

 

Well, as I said, it's partly a problem with armor scaling. A lot of guns would be really good if armor scaling didn't tell them to go F*** themselves. Hell, and even with that issue, some guns are still quite viable. The Braton Prime, for example, is quite good thanks to the acc buff it has over the regular Braton, and is thus actually able to compete with the Dera and Boltor against non-Grineer (because vs Grineer the Boltor is (all but) always better, (all but) no exceptions, as you cannot get around their armor ratings).

 

Not all weapons are meant to be side-grades. Clantech and Prime gear is meant to be a leg up on the rest. This is because that stuff is locked behind a lot of farming (high resources and time for Clantech, lots of void runs for Primes)- and Clantech is even locked behind higher mastery (m7 to use the Lanka, Acrid, and Supra- which are three of the best weapons in the game).

 

 

Once they rework the damage system, outside of Tryhard Mode, you'll see a lot more weapons picked because of feel and/or look than because they're "stronk". It's just right now you need to over-mod your non-AI weaponry to really be able to even use them in T3-grade content, so most people stick with what they know will work with less effort (or rather, less potatos and forma). I'll be the first to tell you, if my Vipers didn't have two forma and a potato in them, I probably wouldn't love them anywhere near as much.

Edited August 20, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Depar]

I know about that, but i was comparing the need of weapon balance.

 

As i said before:

I dont know why the developpers lost time making meshes, textures, sound, etc of 20 or 30 weapons if they will make a WEAPON that make obsolete all the rest.

the problem in the balancing is not that the weapons have no abilities

 

the problem are armor and the mods you can place in the diffrent categorys

 

this is waht secondary make it masterrace

 

and giving them abilities dosnt change a thing you may want to show in my thread for mod balance

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/97803-mods-and-their-balance/

[Taranis49]

As said, right now the reason those weapons tend to be used is due to the armor scaling system at higher levels. It's not that those weapons are particularly OP (particularly at lower levels). It's that (barring a handful of exceptions) weapons with a damage type which needs to deal with the armor shenanigans become ineffective. It's a fault of the enemy design. As always, credit goes to RealityMachina for the following graph:

 

 

Long and short, the current armor scaling system breaks the game. It can actually get to the point where enemies resistant to Armor Piercing damage yet vulnerable to fire (e.g. light infested) will eventually end up taking more damage from AP than fire.

 

Fortunately, DE finally recognized that this is a problem since it results in a "narrowing build diversity", so they're reworking the damage system.

[PeripheralVisionary]

By tier, I mean weapons that should be in the same tier, such as Acrid, Supra, Flux, and whatnot.

Or Prime weapons being overall better than their regular versions.